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Thread: Racism

  1. Link to Post #41
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    People fear change.
    I suspect it's more like people fear loss.

    Loss of things they very deeply love and value, like their sense of culture, history, and what their nationality means to them.

    Here are some interesting questions to ponder on. Please just regard them as simply more to think carefully about.
    1. Have Native Americans lost their culture?
    2. Have Aborigines (and Maoris) lost their culture?
    3. Are Americans, Canadians, and Europeans of each nation, losing their culture?
    4. Which major ethnic group does not appear to be losing its culture?

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Ah, the preservation of culture. I see.

    I think I needed it spelled out for me too.
    Culture is indeed a component, one is never truly autonomous until one has recognized what is the result of culture in oneself and what is truly you.

    I remember reading the Urantia Book and a statement from it really stuck with me in terms of racism.
    The book was written in the 1920's, so it should be understood from that context.
    It states, "Do not be so hard on yourself with what you perceive to be your present faults with racism.
    Not so long ago if a human saw a human who was not from his tribe he would hunt him, kill him and eat him.
    Culture then evolved to the point that strangers were no longer hunted and eaten, they were just killed.
    Culture then evolved to the point that people were no longer killed, but instead taken as slaves.
    And now you are no longer practicing slavery, so this is a good thing.
    Change does not come over night".


    As for myself, I think racism is directly correlated with soul age.
    I'm of the opinion that as long as there are younger souls there will always be racism.
    We shouldn't get mad and state that we no longer wish to have younger souls around.
    We were all young souls at one time, and the older souls had to put up with us .
    So too do we have to put up with younger souls now.
    As such, I think to an extent we have to tolerate non-violent and non-threatening racism and understand that it will probably always exist.
    As long as folks are not acting out in a violent matter I think we can all manage.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    People fear change.
    I suspect it's more like people fear loss.

    Loss of things they very deeply love and value, like their sense of culture, history, and what their nationality means to them.

    Here are some interesting questions to ponder on. Please just regard them as simply more to think carefully about.
    1. Have Native Americans lost their culture?
    2. Have Aborigines (and Maoris) lost their culture?
    3. Are Americans, Canadians, and Europeans of each nation, losing their culture?
    4. Which major ethnic group does not appear to be losing its culture?
    They fear both.
    1 yes
    2 yes
    3 yes except america. We don't have a single culture we are a melting pot of different cultures that is ever evolving.
    4 I would say none.

    Everything must either evolve or devolve, being static is unstable so cultures are going change for the better or worse, but they will change. No culture has ever lasted very long.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Here on Réunion Island, there is a great mix of races and cultures on a small pebble. After two years of presence, I notice a good life, a great tolerance, but the races and cultures mix little ... The "racism" is more related to the fact of not being born here, as if the migrant came stealing a part of life that does not belong to him.

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    Default Re: Racism

    like many other things the term racist has been weaponised , most people that use it frequently don't seem to actually know what it means

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  11. Link to Post #46
    United States Moderator Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Rachel (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Oh man, Neutronstar you just reminded me of something...

    My Grampa on my Mom's side was sick and wheelchair bound at the end of his life. I went to visit him in the nursing home one day. I waited in his room until a kind black gentleman brought him back from a walk.

    The black man walked out, and gesturing towards him my gramps said "that's Leon". And as if to allay some fear he imagined I might have, he added "don't worry, he's a good nig*er Michael!"

    And I'll just flat out admit right here that I laughed out loud. I couldn't help it. It just came out of me. It was visceral, like a bark almost. Yes, it's a horrifying comment. But It was wrapped in such a hopelessly sad innocence and ignorance that one couldn't help but react that way. I mean, he *really* thought he was giving Leon a compliment. He had *no idea* that what he'd just said was a horrible thing. The juxtaposition was so absurd that it kind of entered the arena of humor.

    I hope I haven't horrified anybody. For the record, I've told my sister's boyfriend that story (black guy) and 2 of my black friends, and they all laughed as well. To be clear, I was laughing at the absurd irony of it all, not the racial element.

    That little story speaks volumes, really.
    I know exactly what you mean, Mike, I laughed while reading your post, same reason.

    My BF's boss said something similar in a similar situation, I don't remember the details but my BF immediately dropped his face in his hand. His boss was confused at my BF's reaction and said, "what?! I was complimenting him!". Recognising his boss' ignorance and the pointlessness of explaining his reaction (his boss is an older man and very stubborn) my BF dropped his face back in his hand after looking up to listen to his boss and then just walked away.

    I grew up with the view that targetting anyone because of their 'race' is racism but recently I've challenged that view and it doesn't hold, I've observed it's most often out of ignorance and fear, not a belief of inferiority, it's more like they seem them as their enemy. I see quite a lot of fear of Muslims here and it's really sad, it's really so sad. Because of all the war on terror stuff, some people seem to think it's OK to openly and loudly make comments at or about Muslims, and I see how the Muslims manage it and it breaks my heart to see them so uncomfortable, looking straight ahead, making sure they don't do anything that may escalate the situation. I try to catch their eye and give them a smile (I've also told the bullies to cut it out, loudly, when I know it won't escalate the situation) but they're zoning it out too much and I can't lock eyes with them.

    Hey Rach, Ive been making a conscious effort to look people in the eye and offer a smile too. The shared energy changes almost immediately. This sounds remarkably simple, and maybe even trite, but I think if everyone was doing that it would make a big difference in the world. I really do.

    It really does start with the simple things, doesn't it? Have gratitude. Be humble. Be kind. Offer a smile to a fellow human being. I think miracles can spawn from that!

    Fear and ignorance, like you said. Fear of losing culture, like Bill said. Very true. Fear fear fear. Since our inception, we've been taught to fear those that are different. One has to spend years deprogramming themselves to see this situation clearly. That takes effort. And people are inherently lazy. It's easier for them to continue with the same thoughts than it is to change them. Change takes effort. And intellectual effort is something of a novelty these days.

    I don't think racism can be resolved from a 3d perspective. It has to be viewed from a higher place. We can put things in place like affirmative action, reparations and so on but those are just band aids attempting to treat symptoms of a much deeper disease.

    I totally get it when someone says "I'm not racist, I didn't enslave anyone. I don't owe anyone anything " and so forth. That view has merit. It's relevant to the discussion. But it's only one dimension of many. This is a very layered issue. It requires layers and nuance. I don't think absolutes are helpful. We have to be flexible, not just mentally but emotionally and spiritually as well.

    Americans, especially, are encouraged to have strong opinions. This is seen as a strength. But an overplayed strength eventually becomes a weakness. These "strong opinions" ultimately become dogma. People get rigid. Dogmatic, rigid people = divisiveness. Nothing ever changes that way. It results in people like my gramps and Rachel's BF boss.

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  13. Link to Post #47
    Australia Avalon Member Innocent Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I don't think racism can be resolved from a 3d perspective. It has to be viewed from a higher place. We can put things in place like affirmative action, reparations and so on but those are just band aids attempting to treat symptoms of a much deeper disease.
    Oh, that aspect completely escaped me, how true! Imagine if everyone addressed it from a 5D perspective - no identifying with the physical, we are all one, we've all been the oppressed and the oppressor etc. etc. - problem solved.

    I was pondering the question Bill posed about the cause, I had cultural programming/social engineering and xenophobia, I'm adding spiritual ignorance to that list.

    * * *

    P.S. I should add for clarification, I don't want to give an inaccurate impression of Aussies, or the impression that Muslims feel unsafe here. When I said I'm unable to catch their eye etc., I was referring to that particular situation when they're being bullied. Also, I see a lot of fear but it's not like there's bullying going on all over the place, it's not common but the ignorance I see in private is, they've gotta stop watching the news. (either that or I attract all the knuckleheads).
    Last edited by Innocent Warrior; 26th November 2017 at 09:01. Reason: PS
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  15. Link to Post #48
    Netherlands Avalon Member Jantje's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    I live in a country that is often described as multi-cultural. My family is made up of people with differing ethnic backgrounds married into the family.
    The part of the counrty where I live, there is quite a bit of racism. The funny thing is that we also live in the part with probably the least immigrants and enthically differing backgrounds.

    As somebody who just could not be racist because I love my family members who just happen to be of different skin colour or cultural background, I sometimes had a hard time listening to racist comments by people.
    I would sometimes confront people with their own words. Just repeating their words would sometimes be enough to make them realize how wrong their words are.

    From my point of view racism is based on one of the 4 sources of fear. In this case the fear of the unknown.

    Still there is something to be said for the right to protect "your" cultural heritage. Cultures don't mix, that's something I am sure of.

    One other observation though is that some imported cultures cause more trouble than others.

    Racism is a great tool to divide and control people.
    The sad part is that people are controlled and led so easily

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    Default Re: Racism

    The ego is the great bag of the archivist, the fortress of memory. And because of that he does not want to lose anything, so keeping everything, even suffering, he creates the personality.
    Looking in the axis of fear of loss, racism is an excuse for stupidity.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    If you are looking for advice all I could say is learn their language.
    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    Here you go Bill.
    https://www.rosettastone.com/lp/ppc/...xoCE54QAvD_BwE
    I'm not looking for advice. Or a language program.

    You mean well, and thank you, but you didn't understand a single word I was really saying.

    I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

    I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.
    I'm not talking about race.

    You say "But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places."

    You say they don't want you there. That is what I am getting at. You can't communicate with them. I wouldn't want you there either if I couldn't talk to you. You are an unknown to them. They fear that. You are a stranger that doesn't want to communicate with them. You prove that by not learning there language.

    I would never move to another country without learning their language, because of the things you are saying of how you are being treated. How could I expect to be accepted by a people that I don't want to talk to. That is what they think.
    Thanks again — but you're totally not getting it.

    Let me spell it out.

    I wrote:
    I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

    I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

    What this means — and I'm sure of it — is that most of the people in the US or Canada who don't want non-integrated people from other cultures there are not racist.

    French, German, Swedish or British people who don't want Middle Eastern immigrants there aren't racist, either.

    Of course it's not about race. It's about the preservation of culture. This is my entire point.
    "The preservation of culture." I think many people are happy to see different cultures preserved. People enjoy special events where they can experience another culture, see the dances and taste the foods. Most people are proud of their own culture.

    If people push or try to force their culture upon other people, the result is often negative. The person who is in their home country, who does not want to have another culture forced upon them, or woven around their culture , thus giving the impression of maybe distorting or weakening their own culture is often deemed to be racist.

    If I was to move to a different country, I would of course want to preserve my culture to a certain degree. But I would have to do this without offending other people.
    I wouldn't/shouldn't expect the country that I moved into to change their ways. I would have to accept their culture and respect it or I should not have moved there in the first place.

    When you enter a person's home and they ask you to take off your shoes, and you do so without making an issue out of it you are welcomed into their home. If you do so and question them, and be grumpy about it, there is tension that could escalate. If you refuse to take off your shoes you are always free to choose to not enter, and politely excuse yourself. (Next time you visit, you can be better prepared.)
    Imagine if the guest refuses to take off their shoes, enters the home and tells everyone there that they should all be wearing their shoes and to not listen to the host. That will not end well.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Many cultures have been going through a process of erosion for a long time, that may be a fairly natural process as few things tend to truly stand still. There is always some change taking place. So perhaps those natural changes should not be referred to as erosion for undoubtedly there have been some real efforts to destroy cultures, often from within a country itself - a top down plan to disenfranchise the masses? Culture is utilised for purely political reasons when it is needed to sway public opinion. Local communities were always a strong source of identity and culture. In many western countries those communities are all but gone, an accidental happening from various circumstance or a driven agenda, both most likely?

    I was but 6 years old when I encountered a black person. A boy joined our school and was the, unfortunate, subject of much interest. Much of that interest was quite nasty, it is only with hindisight I can see that many of those other children already knew about black people. The boy got called a 'wog' and 'gollywog'. I had a gollywog, it was the mid 1960's and I never realised my 'cuddly toy person' was supposed to represent a black person until that boy arrived at school. Anyway, from the age of 6 I knew I wasn't a racist even if I could not have articulated that thought.

    Fast forward 20 years and I'm backpacking around Australia. Compared to my only other experience of a country I found Australia to be more racist than the UK - and that from seeing black footballers getting monkey chants from the stands and even bananas thrown on the pitch. In the Northern Territory I learnt how racism was taught and not inherent, a horrible example of a man that would air his views about the 'abo's' at any given chance, in front of his 7/8 yr old son. It took me a while to consider that perhaps he had also had such a father himself.

    A conversation with an Aunt once, she informed me 'oh no, I'm not racist' - Ok, so you'd have no problem with me marrying a black girl? - 'Oh, I think it would be different if one came into your family'.

    2010, Newcastle, England, lying in a hospital bed, 6 patients in the room. A black female Doctor came in and went over to examine the newest arrival, a rather frail looking old man. In the process of the examination I assume she has had to check his groin or rear-end, the man raised himself up slightly and balled his fist. I was already looking out the door to try and attract attention from the nurses station which was right there. I heard the man saying "Get your hands off me you uncertain". I heard her reply "We were all taught the same". As she walked from the room I was watching her go, hoping for some eye-contact. I got it and offered her a sympathetic look, which on reflection may have looked more like a painful grimace. I should have just said 'Sorry' and wish I had. Some people may not understand why I would want to say sorry but to my way of thinking it wasn't about the racism, which it clearly was from the man's point of view, but to me it was just about the injustice of the situation born of an ignorant/fearful attitude.

    My experiences of over 5 years in Thailand largely reflect your own experience and feelings of Ecuador, Bill. My wife's family on her mothers side were rice farmers and we bought a piece of land from an Uncle. I would agree that it is not racism, uncertainty of possible future changes are at root I think, an uneasy, mostly unidentified, small fear.

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    Default Re: Racism

    I work in the alleged "melting pot" of America: Manhattan. "Give us your poor, huddled masses, yearning to breathe free," it says on the tablet Lady Liberty is holding in the harbor.

    And yet NYC has Little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown and many neighborhoods where these masses settled.

    This is not racism, it's driven by culture and economic opportunity for the immigrants to cluster together because of shared experiences.

    Second point, I have a big problem with third parties calling racism. If the person is not a part of the group that is being slighted, then how can they know an innocuous term or phrase is racist?
    When in doubt, do the next right thing.
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by guyres (here)
    [...]
    ... The "racism" is more related to the fact of not being born here, as if the migrant came stealing a part of life that does not belong to him.
    So real... and that's a template which could be applied anywhere (for the Francophone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WscVYSu-O2w Lyrics).

    All that, simply because the focus is on differences... any difference will do! Stark examples of such are the fate of albinos in Africa...
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

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    Default Re: Racism

    I do not see much culture in the USA or in Canada. It seems to me that these two countries, along with a few others around the world, are multi-cultural. That means they have no specific culture of their own but a mixture of culture from the many countries that have immigrated there.

    What is the culture of North America is quickly becoming the culture of the entire world. A modern culture of consumerism and fleeting attention spans forever looking for the next fad, the next gimmick, the next sale. This is the culture of the modern world. Truly, our biggest cultural contribution is our landfills and the pollution of the entire planet.

    Some countries have ancient memories and with those memories come unique rites and celebrations, specific attitudes and sense of national pride. These countries have a bond and a bloodline that is proportionally unassailable and untainted by outside influence.

    Racism is where cultures clash. It is a widely used method of social cohesion to over-emphasize the differences and make a mockery of another's culture. It is an ancient means of in-group forming, as Wade might say.

    I've had the experience of being where I shouldn't be and having disapproving eyes looking at me. It is very disconcerting and uncomfortable. Yet under different circumstances, as a guest of a member of that culture, the looks are of an entirely different nature and the welcome is genuine if not universal.

    We need to invent a new culture inclusive of all people that celebrates life again, not rampant consumerism for dull and bored automatons.
    If not now, then when?

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by neutronstar (here)
    I grew up in a small town in Iowa where there is not much diversity at all, and I see the racism there.
    Okay... can you build on this thread, as an educational vehicle (hopefully!), and explain what you saw, what form it took, and why it was there? (And, importantly, why you call it or regard it as racism? (Maybe it was! But we can't tell, because we don't know what you're describing.)

    You see, the word is loosely used... that's my thesis. What I'm really interested in is what the roots of it are, and why it's there — and if it's NOT racism, what is it really?
    I can be more specific. Because here, In Ecuador, I'm in the cultural minority situation.

    I'm a migrant, living in Ecuador. I'm not an Ecuadorian. I barely speak the language. This not my country. I really don't properly belong here, and I know that.

    I like the local people, and I don't much like most of the Americans I see here. But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places.

    This isn't about race. No-one dislikes my white skin. Quite a few Ecuadorians have fairly white skin, too.

    They just think I don't really belong here, and they disrespect (I believe) that I've not taken more trouble to learn the language. I think they see me (and the other Europeans and Americans) as a kind of economic migrant ... because it's cheap here. So we take advantage of that, and the truth is that we give very little back, indeed.

    I'll say it again. This is not racism. But the locals are worried. They don't know, and are given no safeguards, where this is all going. I can feel it.

    To put it even more bluntly: I'm here because I legally can be, but it's 100% entirely selfish.

    It's all about me, and my safety, comfort, enjoyment, and personal well-being. I'm as friendly as I possibly can be to the local people (I live in a farming community, as one of the only gringos for miles). Some of them are really friendly back. Others literally look the other way. I can feel their thoughts.

    Is this their racism
    ? Not the way I understand it. They simply don't want me to be here.

    Should I go home? Where's home? I don't have one. I have no family, anywhere. I might as well be a Syrian refugee.

    If there were forums in Ecuador (and maybe there are! How would I know?), the local people might well be discussing, with some emotion, the problem of their country being overrun with Americanos. And they'd be entitled to.

    At least, unlike in some other parts of the world, the migrants aren't bringing degrees of crime and abuse with them. But that doesn't stop the locals from being worried, and I'm part of the problem here: I'm certainly no part of any solution.

    The local people's attitudes about this would not be racism. They're simply worried about the integrity of their country, and their culture.

    Just as I was, when I lived in Britain, and went into that hairdresser's in Leicester... before I immediately turned round and instinctively walked out.
    Thanks for this detailed explanation, Bill!

    I think often times we are quick to regard one's behavior as demeaning and hateful when in fact it is not. Maybe if we take the time to see things from their perspective (as you surely have) we can begin to understand their point of view for what it really is. And you're right, the word racism is thrown around all too often. I guess it is much easier to label it as such rather than dissect the true meaning behind their behavior.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)

    We need to invent a new culture inclusive of all people that celebrates life again, not rampant consumerism for dull and bored automatons.

    We are. I can't speak for Canada because I have never been there, but the US is the template for what the world will become. Barring an event that sets us back, the world will continue to get smaller and different cultures will continue to interact. When we interact we then see, although we have differences we also have many things in common. That is what ends the hatred or fear that we have for each other.

    The process happens slowly because some people just can't change, but children are much more receptive to change. 100, 200 years from now the world will be a much different place. Eventually we will be the human race and it will be about learning to accept beings from other planets.

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    Default Re: Racism

    I once had friends who were brothers having mixed parentage, a British mother and Pakistani father.

    They got it the neck from both sides - when visiting Pakistan with his father, he and his brother experienced racism from villagers for being of British extraction.

    And while the UK they received similar abuse from small-minded indigenous people for being part-Pakistani.

    They realised at an early age they couldn't possibly win, so they rejected both British and Pakistani cultural traits they felt were of no use to them. When their father died they not only rejected the strict Islamic cultural values of their father (which sadly included harsh/unjustified physical punishments meted out to them as children), changed their Arabic names into western ones by deed poll while also rejecting the values of their mother, who had since became a devout Jehovas Witness.
    Last edited by happyuk; 26th November 2017 at 19:36.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Racism is the arbitrary utilisation of race as a point of inappropriate discrimination or personal malice. Racism is the personal hatred, for example, held against a specific race, due to race, itself, not the characteristics of a person.

    Racism is personal but it can be leveraged by politicians (and it is).

    As Bill has pointed out, one may dislike or disapprove of a cultural distinctive while maintaining no personal malice towards people of a specific race.

    For example one might dislike Celtic music, but it does not mean you despise the Irish/Scottish/Welsh descendants from which the music arose. I don't like the fact that many Spanish appear to enjoy seeing cattle being tortured inside large arenas, but do not use this an excuse to express revulsion towards all Spaniards.

    Disliking a cultural distinctive is not irrational fear, moral dearth, or, in today's politically-correct-speak: being a Nazi. It is exercising one's discrimination in taste. In ancient language, racism was called a "respecter of faces", that is, the skin pigmentation which, having no bearing on a person's character, is called "arbitrary." It is not rational or intelligent.

    To deny one equality of opportunity (not equality of outcome) based upon race is an example of institutionalized racism.

    In the United States, this is mostly illegal. There is an exception: the denial of opportunity is constituted by politicians. Here, they can deny someone employment opportunity based upon race called "affirmative action." The need to call it "affirmative", itself, indicates the negative consequence attendant.

    In a truly free market this makes absolutely no sense because if the goal is for a successful thriving business, the business is going to seek talent first and foremost, not skin pigmentation.
    Last edited by happyuk; 26th November 2017 at 19:31.

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    Default Re: Racism

    @Bill

    "Which major ethnic group does not appear to be losing its culture?"

    the ethnic group/s who have no culture whatsoever except for a rape culture-

    ALL cultures are being destroyed by those who have no culture whatsoever; welcome to the "New World Order"-

    with respect to all on this forum-

    Larry

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    Default Re: Racism

    A lot of times, racism is compounded with sexual harassment for women. She is black, she wil hear detrimental comments or lust comments on her body. Same with Asian, I remember the adopted daughter of a woman I knew who was in love, just to find out her boyfriend was claiming high and loud to his friends that he finally had laid an Asian woman. She was devastated.

    My little niece suffers the same, wow, wow could tried out a black girl! maybe! comments from some guys.

    As for me, I remember very well in my early twenties, living in an Indian reserve in Ontario and hearing about all the racism women would encounter, paired with sexual harassment, from white men. Then we went, the girls and I (I am whiter than white, but French Canadian, in Ontario - which is English hating French), went to a bar in Toronto. Some Indians guys were around. Then I got talked to by a white guy who discovered through my accent that I was French Canadian and started to harass me. The indians had to defend me. After that, they told me all they were living with the whites and that they could not believe a white would suffer the same.

    When I lived in Mexico, i was at all times very aware of being white.... and still more a white woman. With the Mexican history about Americans and whites, Gringos are not very much appreciated on average. Telling I was Canadian would help at times. However, being a white woman was at time extremely dangerous. I never heard a white man telling me that he was in much danger compared with a white woman. Since then, decades later, I still have this instinct I had build in Mexico, of knowing without seeing or hearing that I am followed or that there is someone 10 feet behind me.

    To me, this is sexual predation compounded by racism.
    Last edited by Flash; 26th November 2017 at 23:34.

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