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Thread: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

  1. Link to Post #141
    UK Avalon Member daviddjg23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    So the part about that belief changing has gone now and its like im being bullied on here i really cannot believe this at all i had posted then was adding more and thats gone now thankyou

    basically they figured out it was round if you would of let me finish i think it was a good article and good overview of the history you really are an agressive bunch of people

    really nasty to people that question in being so vulgar and patronising people leave, im feeling like you obviously want rid of me who do you all think you are God !!!

    200 proofs by Eric Dubay you say is not research so i research and write part of a article leaving out the disgusting patronising tone of the autor think i had better add the next paragraph or Bill will be annoyed so i do but you have already been there stalking me its really quite scary.

    Get ready for a bunch of patronising hate below

    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round..
    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round
    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round ect

    is a new racism being born or as others said pedophilia!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice great job guys
    Last edited by daviddjg23; 7th December 2017 at 02:00.

  2. Link to Post #142
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by daviddjg23 (here)
    So the part about that belief changing has gone now
    I never changed or deleted a thing. I only added my own note about the attribution of the article.

    Click on the Editing History link at the bottom of your post, and (although that can be confusing), you can maybe see what happened: you and I were editing your post at almost the same time.

    I think the extra paragraph from the article that you added (but was accidentally overwritten) was

    ~~~
    However from at least the 6th century BCE,the theory of a flat Earth began falling out of favour,by the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE,the idea of a spherical Earth is common place at least among the educated classes.And by the 1st century BCE it is considered a uncontroversial truth.Having said that,the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought,like a handful of theories in science,such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 7th December 2017 at 02:04.

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  4. Link to Post #143
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by daviddjg23 (here)
    i think it was a good article
    Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:
    Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

    For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

    This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

    For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

    In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

    What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B expressed recently? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

    Edge of the world

    But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

    Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

    It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

    The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

    A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

    Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

    And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.


    Does it look flat?

    Turtles all the way down

    However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

    Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society, started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton, whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

    From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

    Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

    Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

    How unenlightened they were

    But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

    One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

    It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving, author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

    What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

    That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth.

    If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 7th December 2017 at 02:12.

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  6. Link to Post #144
    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by daviddjg23 (here)
    So the part about that belief changing has gone now and its like im being bullied on here i really cannot believe this at all i had posted then was adding more and thats gone now thankyou

    basically they figured out it was round if you would of let me finish i think it was a good article and good overview of the history you really are an agressive bunch of people

    really nasty to people that question in being so vulgar and patronising people leave, im feeling like you obviously want rid of me who do you all think you are God !!!

    200 proofs by Eric Dubay you say is not research so i research and write part of a article leaving out the disgusting patronising tone of the autor think i had better add the next paragraph or Bill will be annoyed so i do but you have already been there stalking me its really quite scary.

    Get ready for a bunch of patronising hate below

    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round..
    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round
    i will not ask silly questions Earth is round ect

    is a new racism being born or as others said pedophilia!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice great job guys

    "Trolling" has nothing to do with sincere expression of contrary opinions or stubborn dedication to an idea. Trolling is all in how the comments are phrased and how the comment poster behaves, especially when confronted.

    You know it's an immature attention-getting scheme when they respond quickly to every single comment posted in response to theirs, and their rhetoric tends to escalate in intense hatred, absurd rambling, and malicious provocation."



    (1) Posts inflammatory comments, not to engage in serious conversation, but to "grief" or annoy an online community.

    (2) An obvious glee and elated satisfaction is aroused in them when people join the fight and reply to their deliberately disruptive comments.

    (3) Copies and pastes large blocks of text to exhaust the readers of a topic thread, thus driving away legitimate posters of sincere comments. These blocks of text are often recycled and appeared on a variety of threads.

    (4) Tends to avoid complimenting people who disagree with them, even when those in opposition to the troll make some valid points.

    (5) Shuns any conciliatory statements like "You have obviously spent a lot of time studying this subject, and I'm not certain how to reply to your last remark, so let's shake hands, part as friends, and move on."

    (6) Never ends a debate with "Thanks for the discussion" or "I'll consider what you say" or any other finalizing remark, because they love arguing and disrupting civilized conversations.

    (7) Keeps an argument going a lot longer than a normal person would, to the point where people will start asking a moderator to turn off comments or block the troll. However, sometimes people will do this just because they can't tolerate contrary opinions and are angry at seeing them posted to a thread they enjoyed reading. The mark of a troll is to keep hammering away at a point in an obsessive manner.


    (8) Acts innocent when called a troll, and states "I'm just stating a contrary opinion, and you can't handle it", but the reality is they are not innocent, they are trouble-makers who only post inflammatory remarks, rarely contributing any real value or good information to a discussion.

    (9) Starts saying filthy words and making wild accusations when confronted. Their hostility and provoking rhetoric escalates when you ask them if they might be a troll or if they are simply trying to stir up trouble.

    (10) When you mention the name of another well-known forum, Second Life, or blogospheric troll, they defend them and accuse you of not understanding that person because you're a tyrannical censoring fascist or whatever.

    (11) Will try to bring up issues that they are angry about, no matter what the topic of a thread is. For example, they will say things like "sounds like the Open Source movement" or "reminds me of Tea Baggers" or "you're sounding like a typical commie libtard now" or "you sound like some irrational Creationism crank" or "you atheists are all the same", or whatever it is they're hostile toward, in an attempt to start a new argument within the current debate.

    (12) When people realize or are warned that the person is a troll, and the troll is then ignored, and nobody will respond to anything they say, the trolling person tends to give up and go to some other thread. They crave attention and they try to get it by being obnoxious in a juvenile, or scholarly, manner.

    (13) They use a nickname, are anonymous, or use a real sounding name, but do not embed a link to their blog or website in their name, as is common in comment forms. This lack of accountability enables them to get away with saying anything they want, to anybody, and even tell outright lies about what they saw or heard.

    (14) They, when not confronted or exposed sufficiently, will seek to have the last word in an online discussion. When nobody responds to their last troll comment, they will proudly proclaim that they "won" what they fantasize as a "content" or "battle".

    Blogocombat means friendly online discussions, as well as heated debates. I use the term "blogocombat" to refer to both. But where the rubber meets the road is when you have to deal with the internet troll.

    There are no winners or losers in a civilized discussion. There are just people who express their thoughts and people who learn a bit more about a subject and improve their presentation of ideas by engaging in conversations with worthy opponents.
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 7th December 2017 at 10:49.

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  8. Link to Post #145
    Scotland Avalon Member Daozen's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)

    (1) Posts inflammatory comments, not to engage in serious conversation, but to "grief" or annoy an online community. CHECK

    (2) An obvious glee and elated satisfaction is aroused in them when people join the fight and reply to their deliberately disruptive comments. CHECK

    (3) Copies and pastes large blocks of text to exhaust the readers of a topic thread, thus driving away legitimate posters of sincere comments. These blocks of text are often recycled and appeared on a variety of threads... CHECK
    I scored 11 out of 14. Not bad.

    Having watched the Globalist Vs Flat Earther food fights for a couple of years, I ask myself... why only these 2 viewpoints? Are there any intermediate views which we're missed? FEarthers have stumbled on some indisputable anomalies, such as the fake moon landings + ISS interior footage. Antarctic anomalies are interesting too. Their observations are intriguing, but their conclusions may be wrong.
    Last edited by Daozen; 7th December 2017 at 06:14.
    http://tinyurl.com/oke7jvm //// "the love that you withhold, is the the pain that you carry... (lifetime after lifetime)..." - Alex Collier.

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  10. Link to Post #146
    UK Avalon Member daviddjg23's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    cheers Bill i did post one bit then re read and think id better add that as i knew i had better put the whole next paragraph as it was the conclusion of the topic,That it is NOT FLAT ive had enough of this thread call me a troll if you want you think i care. what i dont like is people being just nasty too much of it every one believes they are right but i do look into things rather than pass comment from a ignorant position even if i dont agree i normally learn somthing i didnt know.

    Thank you for adding that Bill.

    NOW DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD!!!!

    Picked the wrong week to give up beer!!
    the wrong week to give up pot!!! but seriously drugs are bad children.

    sorry for getting bit annoyed Bill but it took like ages to type all that if i could of linked the whole thing i would have im still learning on here i just did not like the tone,as we are all here because of our ancestors and who knows what people will believe in or think of us in the future.
    Last edited by daviddjg23; 7th December 2017 at 03:56.

  11. Link to Post #147
    Finland Avalon Member Wind's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Can't this thread just be combined to the giant flat Earth thread?

    See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/sear...rchid=16215013

    We need more questioning persons, but please don't become a flattard.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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  13. Link to Post #148
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    Can't this thread just be combined to the giant flat Earth thread?

    See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/sear...rchid=16215013

    We need more questioning persons, but please don't become a flattard.
    How many? "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

  14. Link to Post #149
    France Moderator Hervé's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    [...]
    See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/sear...rchid=16215013
    [...]
    How many? "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh
    In the Advanced Search box, type or copy-paste: "flat + earth" (with the quotation marks) in the "Keywords" box and set the search for "Threads" and "Search Titles Only" for latest results of the search. Older search results can't be displayed because there is a time limit for the search and a new search has to be "re-sent."
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  15. Link to Post #150
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    [...]
    See how many threads there have already been about this subject:
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/sear...rchid=16215013
    [...]
    How many? "Sorry. no matches, please try a different search term" -- heheh
    In the Advanced Search box, type or copy-paste: "flat + earth" (with the quotation marks) in the "Keywords" box and set the search for "Threads" and "Search Titles Only" for latest results of the search. Older search results can't be displayed because there is a time limit for the search and a new search has to be "re-sent."
    That would explain it. I was quite confident Wind hadn't yet switched ti the dark side, lol.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

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    Canada Avalon Member Gaia's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by daviddjg23 (here)
    i think it was a good article
    Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:
    Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

    For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

    This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

    For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

    In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

    What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B expressed recently? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

    Edge of the world

    But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

    Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

    It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

    The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

    A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

    Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

    And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.


    Does it look flat?

    Turtles all the way down

    However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

    Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society, started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton, whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

    From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

    Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

    Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

    How unenlightened they were

    But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

    One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

    It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving, author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

    What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

    That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth.

    If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.
    Much of what I have discovered about the flat earth has intrigued me. To my surprise!

    Few questions:

    What mathematical proof do we have that the Earth is flat?

    What you do with this : NASA has even admitted that nearly all of its photographs of the Earth were fake and based on “people’s expectations.” Again, this was shocking to me! I thought there were hundreds of legitimate photographs of the Earth, but there aren’t and the ones that are “official” have unmistakable errors on it.

    Are there any equations for a flat Earth model to do any predictions on things like sunrise/sunset, eclipses, etc like they have in the spherical model?

    Where is our Universe actually located?

    What is the scale of our Universe?


    Maybe it is a deeper, more fundamental disagreement .... I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

    After all, we discuss a lot of topics in Avalon. Why not this one? Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!
    Last edited by Gaia; 7th December 2017 at 20:13.

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Gaia (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by daviddjg23 (here)
    i think it was a good article
    Yes, it was. Here's the whole article:
    Flat wrong: the misunderstood history of flat Earth theories

    For most people, being described as a “flat Earther” is an insult. The idea of the Earth being flat is considered not only wrong, but a model of wrongness, the gold standard of being incorrect about something.

    This being so, oddly enough, most people described pejoratively as “flat Earthers” do not actually believe that the Earth is flat. “Flat Earther” is simply a scientifically seasoned variation of “idiot”.

    For a recent example, US President Barack Obama recently expressed impatience with the persistent objections put forward by climate change deniers by saying: “We don’t have time for a meeting of the Flat Earth Society.”

    In a subsequent move that one can read as either very fortunate or very unfortunate, the real Flat Earth Society issued a statement in support the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change.

    What do we do, then, when someone actually does believe that the Earth is flat, as the American rapper B.o.B expressed recently? The usual path seems to be blocked; it’s difficult to insult someone with a term that they themselves happily adopt.

    Edge of the world

    But what exactly is a “flat Earth theory”? In fact, there never has been anything called “the flat Earth theory”. Different cultures at different times have posited a staggeringly diverse array of worldviews which cannot easily be summed up with the phrase “flat Earth.” Nor is the idea of a flat Earth something that is exclusive to the Western world.

    Even the most cursory historical survey shows that the idea that the Earth is flat has been a notion shared by an extraordinarily wide range of cultures and tied to vastly different metaphysical systems and cosmologies.

    It was a common belief in ancient Greece, as well as in India, China and in a wide range of indigenous or “pre-state” cultures. Both the poets Homer and Hesiod described a flat Earth. This was maintained by Thales, considered by many one of the first philosophers, Lucretius, an avowed materialist, as well as Democritus, the founder of atomic theory.

    The ancient Greek conception, in turn, has some parallels with that of early Egyptian and Mesopotamian thought, with both thinking that the Earth was a large disc surrounded by a gigantic body of water. The ancient Chinese were also virtually unanimous in their view of the Earth’s flatness, although – in this system – the heavens were spherical and the Earth was square.

    A number of ancient Indian conceptions, common – with some degree of variation – to ancient Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, tie their cosmography to botanical images, with the earth being comprised of four continents surrounding a mountain, akin to the way petals encircle the bud of a flower. Ancient Norse thought postulated a circular flat Earth surrounded by a sea inhabited by a giant serpent.

    Others, like the Mountain Arapesh people of Papua New Guinea, envisage a world which ends at the horizon, the place where giant clouds gather. But even where commonalities exist across these traditions, vastly different metaphysical and cosmological narratives are at stake.

    And, to complicate matters, to these we must add cultures and intellectual traditions for whom the shape of Earth is of no interest whatsoever. Many tribal or pre-state societies, for instance, have little concern for what might be considered cosmography.


    Does it look flat?

    Turtles all the way down

    However, from at least the 6th century BCE, the theory of the flat Earth began to fall out of favour. By the time we get to Aristotle in the 4th century BCE, the idea of a spherical Earth is commonplace, at least among the educated classes. And by the 1st Century BCE it is considered an uncontroversial truth. Having said that, the theory of a flat Earth has continued as a minor tradition in thought, like a handful of theories in science, such as Lamarckianism and vitalism.

    Despite the historical tide having long turned, the mid 20th century saw the establishment of the Flat Earth Society, started in 1956 by Samuel Shenton, whose work was continued by the retired aircraft mechanic, Charles K. Johnson, in 1972.

    From California (where else?), Johnson functioned as president for The International Flat Earth Society. As its spokesman, he made a series of claims that have now become widespread outside the flat Earth community: the Apollo moon landings were faked, and that the correct view of the world is the traditional Christian one of the earth being flat.

    Johnson, interestingly enough, didn’t get only his cosmology wrong, he got his history and theology wrong as well. Orthodox Christian thinkers, at least since 5th century on, have supported the idea of a spherical Earth, from Bede through to Thomas Aquinas.

    Indeed, as the University of California historian Jeffrey Burton Russell has argued, very few educated people in the West after the 3rd century BCE thought that the world was flat. This goes directly against the common belief that most people in medieval times believed the Earth was flat.

    How unenlightened they were

    But, if the flat Earth serves as a kind if myth or fantasy for those who believe in it, there are also myths about the flat Earth that are just as widespread.

    One of the most widely propagated myths in the contemporary world is the belief that Columbus was advised by the Catholic Church to abandon his journey on the basis that he risked falling off the edge of the world.

    It’s source is the 19th century writer, Washington Irving, author of other rigorous historical accounts such as The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle.

    What this suggests is that we are sometimes overly keen to enlist the past – or our version of the past – in our attempts to feel better about how enlightened we are and how benighted were our predecessors.

    That, of course, does not mean that nobody believed the Earth was flat in the middle ages; nor does it entail that nobody believes it today. Mohammed Yusuf, the founder of Boko Haram, famously claimed to not believe in a whole series of modern ideas which he though were contrary to Islam – including the spherical shape of the Earth.

    If there is anything truly astounding about BoB’s improbable cosmographical musings, it’s that the battle between him and Neil deGrasse Tyson is, at this stage at least, being carried out only through the medium of rap. That could be a historical first for cosmography.
    Much of what I have discovered about the flat earth has intrigued me. To my surprise!

    Few questions:

    What mathematical proof do we have that the Earth is flat?

    What you do with this : NASA has even admitted that nearly all of its photographs of the Earth were fake and based on “people’s expectations.” Again, this was shocking to me! I thought there were hundreds of legitimate photographs of the Earth, but there aren’t and the ones that are “official” have unmistakable errors on it.

    Are there any equations for a flat Earth model to do any predictions on things like sunrise/sunset, eclipses, etc like they have in the spherical model?

    Where is our Universe actually located?

    What is the scale of our Universe?


    Maybe it is a deeper, more fundamental disagreement .... I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....

    After all, we discuss a lot of topics in Avalon. Why not this one? Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!
    Halle - f*cking - lujah!

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    Argentina Avalon Member Hazelfern's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    In the name of everything that's holy! Just stop please.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Gaia (here)
    I do not content myself with a simple copy / paste taken on the Internet from you Bill....
    I posted that solely to assist daviddjg23. Not my initiative.

    Quote Posted by Kano (here)
    Quote Posted by Gaia (here)
    Why so much acrimony for a simple subject that is as irrational as many other topics in this forum. A truly important discussion must taking place in this thread. Let’s debate please!
    Halle - f*cking - lujah!
    It seems as if maybe you ever read this, from my post #135:

    ~~~

    From the Welcome To Avalon Thread, intended for all members to read and please understand:

    A note about some aspects of the forum which are sometimes a little controversial: that of disinformation.

    This is a huge topic, and is much discussed elsewhere, besides here. Its very purpose is to trick, deceive and confuse.

    Some disinformation (the definition of which is part truth, part fiction) is deliberately injected into the alternative media. See this article for more details of the operation, which was launched at the start of 2013:
    This is a problem that’s becoming larger. It’s tricky to handle on the forum, because we do NOT want to tell people what to think... but rather, we want to support them in HOW to think.

    A few people might join the community believing, for instance, that the 'Flat Earth' is real, and that NASA always lies, and therefore no official statements can ever be believed. But that’s lazy thinking.

    To figure out what’s true and what’s not, we have to do work. To reject everything and settle for some sugar-coated fantasy (and there are several of those circulating out there) takes NO work. So we do have to be prepared to do some work, when we study and learn and share.

    Everyone can be forgiven for having at some time bought into a false idea, especially if their pilgrimage to the truth has quite recently begun. We’re committed to support all members in that journey.

    But if a member demonstrates that they’re fixated and intransigent in a view that’s demonstrably flawed, and insists on promoting that, and seems to have stalled their own process of inquiry and learning, and never changes, then we may ask them to leave, too — because they would be a detriment to the well-being of the community.

    It’d be like a heckler in a presentation, rather than someone asking intelligent and informed questions... which is always 100% fine.

    This is not about ‘free speech’. That’s lazy thinking, too. It’s more like a university (and this is a very good one) that has certain admissions criteria. Poor students may possibly flunk out here, if I can put it so bluntly.

    So — we ask for and expect your very best.
    ~~~
    1. If someone doesn't understand this, there's not much I can say.
    2. If someone doesn't agree with this, then please leave. I say this without malice, but with a very great deal of personal clarity.

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    yes the earth is round, this is an basic fact and should not be questioned

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    I've installed a number of natural, liner-free pond/dam and swale systems on the land. I've scraped ground in the coastal plains, the desert, the piedmont, and the mountains. I need to contribute that it takes a lot of time, effort, and energy to make any piece of ground level. Whether we're dealing with 0.25 acres, 1.0 hectares, or 100 acres.. its just not there if we follow the natural contours of the landscape.

    We move water on, around, and off a patch of ground using shovels/excavators, A-frame levels/laser levels, etc. If I screw up the leveling, bad stuff happens, because water follows the path of least resistance. Failing to plan for a 500-year flood event leads to homes getting washed downstream- not standing in place.

    I can confidently say that in my experience, I've never found a perfectly level / flat piece of ground, unless it was previously levelled by similar methods. Having played with laser levels in the dead sea valley, the lowest elevation on planet earth, I can tell ya there is no level ground there either.

    I would have LOVED to find flat ground--- there would be no need for spending hours renting laser levels and staking out land contours. Water would pool up evenly, eliminating droughts and recharging aquifers. Unfortunately thats just not my reality. The surface of water is always level... what's happening underneath the surface is an entirely different story.

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Heh. I do like the clarity pictures sometimes provide, lol...

    Click image for larger version

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    Click image for larger version

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by Sierra (here)
    Heh. I do like the clarity pictures sometimes provide, lol...

    Attachment 36598


    Attachment 36599
    Re: the second image ... Don't bother, I appreciate the effort though. But if you just put a shade exactly over half the light and rotate it -- night and day. See? Flat Earth proof! </sarcasm>
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    After finding that my world has a number of new aspects that weren't there before (very strange), and after finding out that sub atomic particles only behave as physical objects when we observe them, I have become less confident that I understand the true nature of reality. The so-called flat earth might be flat in the sense that it is a simulation that emerged from a 2D source. But a physical flat Earth with a dome is a ridiculous idea.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I don't know what shape the earth is, but look at this

    Quote Posted by midnight blue (here)
    After finding that my world has a number of new aspects that weren't there before (very strange), and after finding out that sub atomic particles only behave as physical objects when we observe them, I have become less confident that I understand the true nature of reality. The so-called flat earth might be flat in the sense that it is a simulation that emerged from a 2D source. But a physical flat Earth with a dome is a ridiculous idea.
    Good sense ... the curiosities of physics up to this point have never contradicted a sphere earth, but the have definitlely added questions about how our reality is created and sustained. Good to see you have sense to see the difference!

    Welcome to Avalon BTW!
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 10th December 2017 at 08:00.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

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