Elisa Lam Documentary

[Hervé]

Posted by Mike (here)
[...]
... what motivation would the police have for possibly inventing a story about cutting open the water tanks???

Dead bodies in water start to swell... ?

[findingneo]

The water tanks on Hotel Cecil where she was found.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=h...qXmSgQlsiAn6M:

Perhaps it was too narrow for her hips and shoulders to squeeze into?
And can you imagine getting a decomposing body out of a too small exit, without damaging evidence (let alone the unpleasant factor involved)? Who would care about having to cut the water tank if it avoided other unnecessary complications?

[Mike]

Thanks for posting those pics findingneo.

It appears to me, just by looking at it, that a small skinny person could get in the opening with a little determination and creativity(if, hypothetically she were attempting a very bizarre suicide). If she were already dead before entering the water tank, whoever (or whatever) killed her wouldn't have to negotiate a fighting, flailing individual. They could, in effect, shove her thru in a crumpled up fashion. But getting a bloated body out of a narrow opening like that may have required a larger opening and therefore a cut to widen it. Plus, lifting out is more difficult than dropping in.

Perhaps a combination of what Marcus, Herve and findingneo said.

[ghostrider]

i have heard dimension doors appear all over the earth naturally , it could be an entity is using a doorway for evil ...

[Wind]

Interesting synchronicity Mike, I was just thinking about this spooky case yesterday before you even had made a thread about it. Now I came here and see this thread!

How can you solve a case like this? The rationalist in me would like to think that she was a mentally disturbed woman who somehow got herself killed... The other investigative part in me tells that there's something way abnormal about this. If someone killed her, who or what was it? Possibly it has to be a man. I just find it interesting that the coroners assume that there was no foul play involved.

If, and only if, some unseen force has the ability to even kill people... What do we make of that? I'm sure most of us agree and even know that ghosts and demons exist, but have people ever actually been directly killed by them? I'm not sure if I want to entertain that kind of thought.

[Ewan]

Having watched your OP video Mike I noted a few points.

At the age of 21 she was diagnosed bipolar - whilst at university as I understood it, and prescribed pyschiatric medications to 'help' her.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2...t-us-colleges/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690138/
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/06/prescribing.aspx

Her blog posts (that were quoted) seem relatively ordinary to me, the struggle of a sensitive person to cope with this effed up world. My own scribblings from 15 to early 20's would not be too dissimilar.

Her posts on social media are visible to all, and could lead to targetting if a group were searching for such vulnerable people; her last post on tumblr was made 29th jan, whilst she was in LA, on a friends phone? Who? She had lost her own phone, who did have it?
(This is pure musing (targetted) and should be ignored in any conclusion - which I won't be arriving at anyway).

From the autopsy report she was still taking at least some of her psychiatric meds. It also mentioned blood pooling in rectum - normal? I went to a few autopsy sites but couldn't find anything specific about that.

The hole cover in tank looks large enough - just - but lid was closed behind her. Also the fine sandy layer on all her clothing, the video suggested could have come from her undressing on the roof. It could therefore also have happened from being dragged across the roof; but there was no definitive proof that the sandy debris even matched the gravelly coating of the roof, and that could have been determined.

Finally, the two people and black box seem almost anecdotal, there is no other evidence to confirm or deny. Which therefore has to be dismissed, much as my musings on possible targetting even though the two could tie in together.

Edit: To add. It would take a very strong individual to lift a corpse onto the roof of one of those water tanks, or more than one person.

The lift door not closing.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Mike (here)
Thanks for posting those pics findingneo.

It appears to me, just by looking at it, that a small skinny person could get in the opening with a little determination and creativity(if, hypothetically she were attempting a very bizarre suicide). If she were already dead before entering the water tank, whoever (or whatever) killed her wouldn't have to negotiate a fighting, flailing individual. They could, in effect, shove her thru in a crumpled up fashion. But getting a bloated body out of a narrow opening like that may have required a larger opening and therefore a cut to widen it. Plus, lifting out is more difficult than dropping in.

Perhaps a combination of what Marcus, Herve and findingneo said.

According to the autopsy report her official cause of death was drowning, so I assume they found water in her lungs. It means she was alive before entering the tank (but not necessarily conscious).

The high strangeness for me was always, and still is, the elevator footage. There's just no obvious answer that explains her behaviour, except some kind of mental sickness. Yes, it is possible there's a spiritual/mystical or X-Files type explanation behind all this, but I'd argue that more prosaic criminal activity is more likely.

Although sexual assault was so say ruled out, people have commented that the autopsy report made no mention of what the rape kit results were. As a motive that is still on the table. If she was drugged for instance or knocked out, it would require no great feat of strength for the perpetrator to transport Lam's body (weighing only 115 pounds) up to the roof by way of the fire-exit (not alarmed), and then drop her into that water tank to dispose of it.

Unconscious in the water, she drowned. I don't think there's anything particularly unusual about how she got in that tank. I've seen nothing to indicate the hatch would not accommodate someone of even her slim proportions. Also note that the hatch was open when her body was first discovered - one way or the other, she definitely entered the tank via that hatch. And it is no mystery to me why they cut her out. The hatch was too small to extract a bloated body without damaging it.

There are still, and likely always will be, many questions on this mystery. But there are plenty of rational explanations to explore first, before arriving at the supernatural.

[Ewan]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)

<snip>

...it would require no great feat of strength for the perpetrator to transport Lam's body (weighing only 115 pounds) up to the roof by way of the fire-exit (not alarmed), and then drop her into that water tank to dispose of it.

Have to disagree there, not about getting to the roof, but getting on top of the water tank. You need at least one arm to climb the ladder and a corpse/unconscious human is not particularly accomodating to being lifted, especially one-handed.

How do we know the lid was open when the body was found? I thought the guy said he lifted the cover and got a shock?

Edit to add: Unfortunately, given the amount of suicides which were clearly murders that turn up in the alt community not all autopsy reports can be trusted to be accurate. That particular autopsy report was changed several times if the OP video is to be believed.

I'm not pushing for any theory to gain prominence. Just leaving things open without definitives.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Ewan (here)
How do we know the lid was open when the body was found? I thought the guy said he lifted the cover and got a shock?

Not sure about the shock claim, but in several articles I've seen the hatch was open from the beginning. That was the statement of hotel employee Santiago Lopez who found the body. In this article he says:

"I noticed the hatch to the main water tank was open and looked inside and saw an Asian woman lying face-up in the water approximately twelve inches from the top of the tank," he said.

Posted by Ewan (here)
not about getting to the roof, but getting on top of the water tank. You need at least one arm to climb the ladder and a corpse/unconscious human is not particularly accommodating to being lifted, especially one-handed.

Difficult, but not impossible. Maybe there were two men involved? One has to ask, which is most likely: 2 humans committing this crime together, or 1 inter-dimensional entity? I'm not a sceptic that completely rules out the latter. I just think the former is simply more plausible.

2 men committing rape/murder together is not an unheard of crime. It becomes potentially more plausible if you consider the possibility of an inside job, i.e,. two hotel employees targeting a guest who is mentally ill and vulnerable. (just theorizing).

[Mike]

Not to muddy the waters here hopefully, but it appears bipolar people can and do hallucinate during moments of mania. The elevator event very well could have been some kind of phenomena related to that. Notice the bizarre way she is moving her hands and arms. I only mention it because I've never seen it being considered as a possibility.

https://www.healthline.com/health/bi...hallucinations

[Ewan]

Yes, it looks to me like she is checking to see if something she can see is actually there. The way a person deprived of sight suddenly starts feeling around. Yet she can see something and is doubting what she sees. I see her interacting with something that we can't see.

Why does the elevator door never move, why is the video edited.

I'm most interested in the implications of the Jon Rappaport blog linked above because I think it is convenient to claim she is having an 'episode' when all the other signs seem to point to a much improved state of mind.

I'd like to know a lot more about the police investigation, information on which seems sparse.

-The 68? yr old sex offender and his 'like an adopted son' that lived at the hotel, for instance.
-Did the police try and track her lost phone?
-How can they release an obviously edited video surveillance from the elevator

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Here's an interesting analysis of the elevator footage. Lots of questions raised, not so much new ones as this has been floating around a long while now, but it sets the scene for what is the very heart of the mystery: the elevator, and what the heck is going on. There is also some footage of the roof and water tank - which has a ladder. It seems easy to climb into (but not out).

Well worth a watch.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=f2jQY2Yutck

It is possible she's having some kind of delusion/episode, either brought about by failure to take her meds, or from drug use.

We could theorize that by pressing the 'hold' button and standing around at the entrance, she's actually waiting for someone. The hand gestures are weird for sure, but I honestly don't think there is anyone in that corridor she's talking to. Maybe she has an arrangement to meet someone at that elevator to go down to the lobby for a drink etc. It does look like she's hanging around, waiting for someone to arrive. Then could she be miming to herself, as if rehearsing a line for a date? Who knows.

[Ewan]

I'm not a body language expert but she looks fearful to me, so I don't think she is voluntarily waiting for someone - more like hoping someone doesn't arrive.

From the OP video, only source I'm considering atm, her system was clear of drugs except minimal alcohol and her prescribed drugs. They suggested one of those drugs was missing and as such could have been a balancing factor in a psychotic episode.
(Sorry, but that looks like a convenient get-out clause to me - she was having an episode because she didn't take all her meds. All her own fault whilst conveniently passing-by the history of bad news on psychotropic drugs).

The mime angle is possible, resulting from an internal dialogue being played out.

I have not watched that last vid you referenced yet, it's downloading, but what makes you think she's hanging around. There is a close door button as well as a hold door button on many elevators. I'm quite sure she'd rather not be hanging around from the body language.

EDIT: Ok I've seen that video now, he claims its been verified that's the hold button she's hitting. Also some 'people'? claim this is playful and aroused. That explains why I never had much luck with the ladies then.

Not sure he's a great source. "Hundreds of people have been murdered here"?

Its a big danger speculating without facts, I think it was already mentioned in this thread. You end up trying to make facts fit the speculation, and why I immediately added caveats to my musing in the first response I made.

[neutronstar]

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I can't imagine someone as diligent as Paulides getting that one wrong. I'm sure he did his homework there.

I don't know buddy.
I'm starting to think he did not.
Most of his case studies in his books are the police reports from what took place and such, not really on the scene interviews.
I'm thinking the folks who did the video you posted were much more diligent than Paulides on this one.

Right. Quite possible. But what motivation would the police have for possibly inventing a story about cutting open the water tanks???

The path of least resistance.
Maybe they did cut open a specific water tank due to no one wanting to go in and exhume a body while inside a steel tank.
You saw the opening on top of that tank, would you want to wade into that with what was inside? Or would you say "cut open the tank?".
Could be Paulides heard this and ran with it using conjecture.

They had to cut the opening to make it bigger because she was in the tank for 2 weeks. She was bloated. She was probably twice the size she was when she died. She was very thin at the time of death. She could have very easily fit in that hole, but not after swelling up.

I think this is a case of a rape and murder. Also a cover-up by the very corrupt LAPD.

[Michi]

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
I can't imagine someone as diligent as Paulides getting that one wrong. I'm sure he did his homework there.

I don't know buddy.
I'm starting to think he did not.
Most of his case studies in his books are the police reports from what took place and such, not really on the scene interviews.
I'm thinking the folks who did the video you posted were much more diligent than Paulides on this one.

Right. Quite possible. But what motivation would the police have for possibly inventing a story about cutting open the water tanks???

The path of least resistance.
Maybe they did cut open a specific water tank due to no one wanting to go in and exhume a body while inside a steel tank.
You saw the opening on top of that tank, would you want to wade into that with what was inside? Or would you say "cut open the tank?".
Could be Paulides heard this and ran with it using conjecture.

They had to cut the opening to make it bigger because she was in the tank for 2 weeks. She was bloated. She was probably twice the size she was when she died. She was very thin at the time of death. She could have very easily fit in that hole, but not after swelling up.

I think this is a case of a rape and murder. Also a cover-up by the very corrupt LAPD.

I agree with Neutronstar.

The video is just a "conspiracy"-diversion.
Either the forensic investigations were flubbed or covered-up.
If she'd commit suicide, there would have been her finger prints all over the place.
If she has been tossed into the water tank, there should have been skin abrasions at the tank's rim.
Where is the report showing any possible abuses?
With nowadays modern forensic investigation techniques you can get to the bottom of all matter!

[DNA]

Posted by Ewan (here)
Yes, it looks to me like she is checking to see if something she can see is actually there. The way a person deprived of sight suddenly starts feeling around. Yet she can see something and is doubting what she sees. I see her interacting with something that we can't see.

I wanted to address this but it just seemed too far out there.
The video mentions a company involved with invisibility technology.
I remember a story about a man who was considered "crazy" who was "on the run" because he was in possession of a piece of information concerning invisibility tech from a "real" millitary contractor type company in San Diego.
The only reason he wasn't killed out right was because his father worked high up and served as a deterrent for his death.
It was an amazing story but I can not for the life of me think of a reference point that would allow me to start searching for information that would lead me to the story. I'm pretty sure this was something I was exposed to here on Avalon, and I could swear Bill had commented on it.
I'm going to have to go straight to the horse on this one.

Posted by devplan (here)
The video is just a "conspiracy"-diversion.
Either the forensic investigations were flubbed or covered-up.
If she'd commit suicide, there would have been her finger prints all over the place.
If she has been tossed into the water tank, there should have been skin abrasions at the tank's rim.
Where is the report showing any possible abuses?
With nowadays modern forensic investigation techniques you can get to the bottom of all matter!

Not so fast.
She was in that tank for weeks.
She was in there long enough for the water from the tap to turn black with her decomposing flesh and blood.
Any rain or such would have removed the evidence you speak of on the roof or on the ladder leading up to the top of the water tank.

[Mike]

Marcus maybe you're referring to the book 'Chameleo? Bill did start a thread on this topic

https://www.amazon.com/Chameleo-Invi.../dp/B00ZDWEITO

[DNA]

Posted by DNA (here)

Posted by Ewan (here)
Yes, it looks to me like she is checking to see if something she can see is actually there. The way a person deprived of sight suddenly starts feeling around. Yet she can see something and is doubting what she sees. I see her interacting with something that we can't see.

I wanted to address this but it just seemed too far out there.
The video mentions a company involved with invisibility technology.
I remember a story about a man who was considered "crazy" who was "on the run" because he was in possession of a piece of information concerning invisibility tech from a "real" millitary contractor type company in San Diego.
The only reason he wasn't killed out right was because his father worked high up and served as a deterrent for his death.
It was an amazing story but I can not for the life of me think of a reference point that would allow me to start searching for information that would lead me to the story. I'm pretty sure this was something I was exposed to here on Avalon, and I could swear Bill had commented on it.
I'm going to have to go straight to the horse on this one.

I flagged my own post with a question directed to Bill because I could swear that I'd heard about this from him.
Bill was kind enough to reply and directed me accordingly.
If folks are in the least piqued in so far as their curiosity concerning the possibility of an actual invisible person interacting with the young Ms. Lam then folks should check out Bill's thread on Chameleo and for the record we should resurrect this thread and give it the proper attention it deserves.
CHAMELEO -- SAIC's classified (and operational) invisibility program

The story goes like this.
A kid named Damien has a room mate who went awol from the armed forces and on his way out of his military base he stole a laptap and some night vision goggles. Damien goes on to explain how folks from the military start visiting him. Damien states that they wanted those night vision goggles back.
The story includes stuff that include folks 'millitary' who appear to be using invisibility tech. And this is in San Diego, not too far from LA.

So back to the Elisa Lam story and how this information is relevant.
The Turbuculosis strain, which was brand new, that started in the homeless population surrounding the hotel just a few weeks after Elisa Lam was killed, and while occupants of the hotel were drinking her decomposing body. The name of the Turbuculosis strain was {Lam, Elisa}. That is effing crazy in so far as coincidences are concerned.
Also, wasn't she in contact with a millitary guy from San Diego that she was supposed to be meeting according to her online posts?
The hotel being a hotbed for satanic activity, we now know how the highest offices of politics and military are often satanic.
Now as crazy as it sounds could there have been a satanic millitary cabal using invisibility technology to find, kill and infect someone and use their body to spread this disease?
The only reason I even give this suggestion voice is because of her name. Lam. This would be something these types would take very seriously.
If they were looking for a sacrifice what more perfect name could they hope for than Lam?

[FreeURmind]

Her finance is linked to Raytheon. (If that hasnt been mentioned) And I didn't know a humans foot could twist like that.

[O Donna]

Elisa Lam death is an unusual death no matter how it's cut. A thought crossed my mind that an unusual death reported in the media could well be meant to send a message. I don't know the message but by it's nature it would be significant.

Decoding that message could be hidden in what various investigators have uncovered thus far. And/ or other things need to happen to quicken a clearer answer.

I admire people who dedicate their time in trying to put the pieces together.