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Thread: The Walter Bosley thread

  1. Link to Post #101
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Well, I do think there may be some valid hypotheticals here.

    If I have a paper copy, a 'real' hard-copy book, and then lend it to a friend — so they don't have to buy it — is that depriving the author of income? Is that unethical?

    If I buy the book and donate it to a real bricks-and-mortar library, is that doing the same?

    If I buy the book and then sell it second-hand on Amazon at twice the price (or half the price!), is that the same as well? (In fact, is it okay to sell any used book if nothing goes to the author?)

    Nick Redfern's book was on a free torrent. Is it unethical if I tell someone where to look to find it?

    In many cases I've found an e-book simply so that I could quote a couple of paragraphs from it. I've done that in three posts in the last couple of weeks, here, here, and here. That promotes the book, and the author, and the author's topic of research.

    But here in Ecuador, there's no way I could get hold of the book, by whatever means, to do that. I'd not go to that time, and trouble, and expense, just to quote a tiny section in passing — for the benefit of others, not for myself.

    This is what the net was created for. You yourself know the problem as a research author. Do you buy all the books in your bibliographies? (Not a push-back. A serious question. I'd assume you don't. But I'd be impressed if you do!)

    I'm not trying to argue. Truly. Just showing that as best I can see, this really isn't a black-and-white issue at all.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 23rd July 2019 at 22:21.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    All it would take is just one author, who is not so understanding, to sue Avalon for Breach of Copyright. Copyright Law is international. At up to $250,000 per offense, Walter's comments are worth serious consideration.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Bill,

    I hate to say it, but your moral compass is off here. You really sound like you're trying to rationalize something you know is not truly ethical. Not one of your hypotheticals is ethically validating nor is this funny. You need to step back and do some inner reflection instead of gaming things.




    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Well, I do think there may be some valid hypotheticals here.

    If I have a paper copy, a 'real' hard-copy book, and then lend it to a friend — so they don't have to buy it — is that depriving the author of income? Is that unethical?

    If I buy the book and donate it to a real bricks-and-mortar library, is that doing the same?

    If I buy the book and then sell it second-hand on Amazon at twice the price (or half the price!), is that the same as well? (In fact, is it okay to sell any used book if nothing goes to the author?)

    Nick Redfern's book was on a free torrent. Is it unethical if I tell someone where to look to find it?

    In many cases I've found an e-book simply so that I could quote a couple of paragraphs from it. I've done that in three posts in the last couple of weeks, here, here, and here. That promotes the book, and the author, and the author's topic of research.

    But here in Ecuador, there's no way I could get hold of the book, by whatever means, to do that. I'd not go to that time, and trouble, and expense, just to quote a tiny section in passing — for the benefit of others, not for myself.

    This is what the net was created for. You yourself know the problem as a research author. Do you buy all the books in your bibliographies? (Not a push-back. A serious question. I'd assume you don't. But I'd be impressed if you do!)

    I'm not trying to argue. Truly. Just showing that as best I can see, this really isn't a black-and-white issue at all.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Thanks, but I really don't fully agree. I truly don't think all my points were all that silly.

    Taking a wider view, what I suspect all this may lead to — because of the entire issue of everything being out there on the internet — is a re-examination of the way the written word is published and made available, and how contributors are compensated for that.

    As with Sean Parker's Napster, this was the first time music was 'pirated' on a large scale... and then as a direct result of realizing that everything had to adapt to the new reality, the entire industry was dragged into the 21st century.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 23rd July 2019 at 22:44.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    One of Redfern's readers just pointed out that your Avalon library link has a link asking for donations to 'show appreciation' for the library of uploaded books -- That IS taking money for these books, for every donation given there.
    So it's OK for your library to get money for this even though authors may be losing money.

    Bill, you're on the wrong side of this.


    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Thanks, But I don't fully agree. I don;t thnk all my points were that sillyq

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Bill, with respect, you and some other members are aware of my profession as a Commercial Graphic Designer. It's part of my job to understand Copyright Law.

    I have client's trying this on all the time.

    Despite my warnings, one client was sued by the European photographer for tens of thousands of dollars - NZ$70K to be exact! (just one photograph nicked off Google Images and used in an International Travel Directory).
    - I'll add that it would have only cost them a measly NZ$12.00 to legally use the image in their advt.
    - it bankrupted them! Just because it's on the internet, does not make it FREE.

    THAT's THE LAW. And it's International.

    As the owner of this forum, YOU can be held FULLY liable.
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 24th July 2019 at 09:31.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Quote Posted by WalterBosley (here)
    One of Redfern's readers just pointed out that your Avalon library link has a link asking for donations to 'show appreciation' for the library of uploaded books -- That IS taking money for these books, for every donation given there.
    So it's OK for your library to get money for this even though authors may be losing money.

    Bill, you're on the wrong side of this.
    Yes, there's been a lot of work put into the library. Take a look through it.

    And we're not selling anything. There's no paywall, no subscription, not even any advertising. Nothing. All of those things we're utterly against. It's just a free service — like Avalon. I ask for donations here, too.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Anyone of you here who has a serious issue, as misguided as it is - and we can talk copyright until the sun goes down - may consider contacting Brewster Kahle at Archive.org and make your case with him as well.

    Have you seen that library?
    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    I'm understanding and on the record as saying it is a library, in its' finest sense. A library.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Well, I have a Masters Degree in Library and Information Science and thirty years’ experience working in libraries.

    Copyright isn’t so much a matter of morality and ethics (although admittedly, an ethical person would think twice about stealing,) but rather, one of law.

    Here in Canada, a library is allowed to purchase a book and then, lend that purchased copy out to people. It is NOT allowed to copy a book and then, loan that copy to people.

    The reason why they are allowed to put a donated copy of a book on its shelves and loan it out is because that book was PURCHASED in the first place.

    Either way, a library (or individual) is not allowed to copy a donated or purchased book and post that on the internet.

    This means that the forum might have an outstanding “library,” but the copies that it is making freely available to people are illegal ones even if they were “found” elsewhere on the Internet.

    I believe the exception to this copyright law would be the lifespan of the author PLUS 50-70 years. In other words, once an author is dead for 50-70 years, I think it can be copied here in Canada.

    Another exception is that individuals are allowed to copy a small passage in a book for personal research purposes. You can have a few photocopied pages in your files at home and not have to worry about breaking the law.

    Early on, I downloaded a copy of The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot from the forum’s library. Initially, I told myself that Talbot was dead so it was okay, but I felt so guilty—because I knew it was WRONG—that I deleted the copy. I will get around to buying it one of these days.

    See:http://fopl.ca/news/7-things-canadia...copyright-law/
    See:https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipoin...h_wr02281.html
    Last edited by Chanie; 24th July 2019 at 02:09.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    I posted on the thread Bill created out of Walter's initial post on this.

    I hope you see that Walter, because I am in total agreement with you on this. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1306274

    But I will say this, pretty much repeating what I said to you before, Bill: All of your justifications for this practice that Walter is decrying hold no water. Instead of preserving the rights of authors to make a decent living, you are promoting the filching of their work, "because, hey, it's out there for free, anyway, so what's the difference." I can go through all of your "reasons" for why it's okay, but none of them are okay.

    This type of attitude and action will KILL literature as we've known it. Some people want that, I'm sure. "Everything should be shared freely with anyone who wants it." How has that worked out for musicians, Bill? Pretty badly, I'd say, notwithstanding the greed of that industry.

    It's sad that you are blind in this regard. I wonder would it be different were YOU a struggling writer watching people swallow up what took you five or ten years to make -- for nothing in return.
    Last edited by Caliban; 24th July 2019 at 02:13.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    I'm not trying to be a jerk to Bill. I think the internet has been around a few decades and is still feeling its way through what's the right thing and what's the wrong thing. This is one of those things where, even though some folks may have gotten used to certain things, it doesn't mean that it's the right thing and should continue. Literature and music will indeed suffer when the means to make a living at it -- which allows the author/artist to focus on their work and thus be good or great -- is taken away by the selfishness of those who want everything handed to them or live in a fantasy world where all is free and wonderful.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Bill, with respect, you and some other members are aware of my profession as a Commercial Graphic Designer. It's part of my job to understand Copyright Law.

    I have client's trying this on all the time.
    Ditto. Had to turn down work a few weeks ago because a biz wanted Nintendo's Mario on their window. I could do it but I'm not.

    Walter's right. That being said I won't post anymore about this as it's not my business. There's lots of info in the library, if you want to support the authors then don't read copyrighted material, just check out the other stuff.

    Much love as always.
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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Speaking as a lawyer, I believe Walter has a much stronger position. The library argument is a red herring; Avalon is publishing copyrighted material, not lending it. More importantly and speaking personally, I think Walter is absolutely in the right. Authors should be paid for their hours of work. I follow Walter (as an example) and know that he isn't getting rich off his books and, even if he was, it would be his right because it would be the result of his own hard work.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    There's people offering "copyright bounty" now too, I see ads about it all over the place regarding software piracy. The way it works is, if you report a copyright infringement and the entity you reported ends up paying a monetary settlement, you get the bounty.

    Maybe I could help with policing the PDF's. Those contain other hidden data too (called Metadata) which I could theoretically extract, just not sure if it'd be useful whatsoever. Seems to me they all need to be taken down, and each individual PDF will need to be scrutinized and authorized by a moderator. If that happens, and we find ourselves doing repeated tasks over and over again, I might be able to help automate things using my website development skills.
    Last edited by petra; 25th July 2019 at 15:16.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    All I can add to this issue is:

    In these days of lies and cover up, false history etc we need all the info we can get.

    These are important days, people need the info.
    Now if you are like me 'poor' and can't just go buy many, many books to get the knowledge well

    If you have great knowledge then spread it.
    yes I know you need to make a living, dilemma isn't it o,0

    If I had new knowledge I would try getting it to as many people as possible, rich and poor.

    Enlighten and Make a difference
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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    RIP Avalon Library? I tried to warn about this some time ago. It's the nightmare scenario that there are going to be a lot of people who'll just simply want their "money" and whatever compensation. It's a nice thought though of Bill to try and share a lot of knowledge around for free, but it just doesn't work like that anymore. Seems there are a lot of rules and more piling up. And yes, I do understand all the content creators/artists/writers/actors/musicians and whatever. I do have a band and I do understand what it's like to be an artist and that's not easy.
    Last edited by muxfolder; 25th July 2019 at 22:53.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Not at the expense of others. Your desire does not give you the moral right. Not being combative, just pointing this out.
    Nothing here is such a matter of life or death 'awareness' that disregarding the intellectual property rights of others is justified.

    Quote Posted by Sunny-side-up (here)
    All I can add to this issue is:

    In these days of lies and cover up, false history etc we need all the info we can get.

    These are important days, people need the info.
    Now if you are like me 'poor' and can't just go buy many, many books to get the knowledge well

    If you have great knowledge then spread it.
    yes I know you need to make a living, dilemma isn't it o,0

    If I had new knowledge I would try getting it to as many people as possible, rich and poor.

    Enlighten and Make a difference


    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Muxfolder, that's your opinion, but many people disagree with you. The compensation allows researchers etc to focus on doing what they do which is apparently what all the folks who want it for free claim to want. Characterizing people selling what they write as merely mercenary and motivated only by that is wrong.

    Quote Posted by muxfolder (here)
    RIP Avalon Library? I tried to warn about this some time ago. It's the nightmare scenario that there are going to be a lot of people who'll just simply want their "money" and whatever compensation. It's a nice thought though of Bill to try and share a lot of knowledge around for free, but it just doesn't work like that anymore. Seems there are a lot of rules and more piling up. And yes, I do understand all the content creators/artists/writers/actors/musicians and whatever. I do have a band and I do understand what it's like to be an artist and that's not easy.
    Last edited by WalterBosley; 26th July 2019 at 21:19.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Quote Posted by WalterBosley (here)
    Not at the expense of others. Your desire does not give you the moral right. Not being combative, just pointing this out.
    Nothing here is such a matter of life or death 'awareness' that disregarding the intellectual property rights of others is justified.

    Quote Posted by Sunny-side-up (here)
    All I can add to this issue is:

    In these days of lies and cover up, false history etc we need all the info we can get.

    These are important days, people need the info.
    Now if you are like me 'poor' and can't just go buy many, many books to get the knowledge well

    If you have great knowledge then spread it.
    yes I know you need to make a living, dilemma isn't it o,0

    If I had new knowledge I would try getting it to as many people as possible, rich and poor.

    Enlighten and Make a difference


    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Muxfolder, that's your opinion, but many people disagree with you. The compensation allows researchers etc to focus on doing what they do which is apparently what all the folks who want it for free claim to want. Characterizing people selling what they write as merely mercenary and motivated only by that is wrong.

    Quote Posted by muxfolder (here)
    RIP Avalon Library? I tried to warn about this some time ago. It's the nightmare scenario that there are going to be a lot of people who'll just simply want their "money" and whatever compensation. It's a nice thought though of Bill to try and share a lot of knowledge around for free, but it just doesn't work like that anymore. Seems there are a lot of rules and more piling up. And yes, I do understand all the content creators/artists/writers/actors/musicians and whatever. I do have a band and I do understand what it's like to be an artist and that's not easy.
    Maybe I was a little bit too harsh there. I don't mind people who do their work to get compensation. It must be even more difficult to get something selling books than it is with making music or movies or something other one might consider, well, artistic. That I can tell that I wouldn't leave my day job for trying to earn my living making music because it hardly pays the rent. I was trying to point out to distributors who own the content are now getting too greedy and this will backfire. That's why Netflix for example went down to tubes. It was a good and affordable service for long time but now it's getting worse. Instead of putting a lot of content under one or two big providers, they are starting new ones. Not that there's anything wrong with it. People just don't want to pay of ten different streaming services. So torrent is going to be very popular in the near future maybe as popular as it was in it's heydays.

    My other prediction is that when Youtube no longer tolerates alternative media (this is happening slowly as we speak), it's going to be distributed through some kind of torrent technology. Bitchute is already out there but it's now yet that popular. But that will be the way to avoid censorship.

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    Default Re: The Walter Bosley thread

    Quote Posted by Caliban (here)
    This type of attitude and action will KILL literature as we've known it. Some people want that, I'm sure. "Everything should be shared freely with anyone who wants it." How has that worked out for musicians, Bill? Pretty badly, I'd say, notwithstanding the greed of that industry.

    It's sad that you are blind in this regard. I wonder would it be different were YOU a struggling writer watching people swallow up what took you five or ten years to make -- for nothing in return.
    Yep. Instead of saying, "everything should be available free", say, "I will give away everything I make for free." "I will go to work for free." Hm.

    You want to give away free books because free knowledge is important to you? Awesome! Write a book and give it away. Otherwise, what you really mean is, "I want books to be given to me for free" even if you phrase it the other way. You want to read a book for free? Go to the library. Write the author and ask for a copy to review. There's an entire site dedicated to sending free ebooks for people who write reviews. There's entire websites dedicated to collecting people's writings that they, the authors, are giving away for free. Sure, the quality might degrade rapidly the further you get into fanfiction... but there's a world of free reading out there from people who've consented to give their writing away for free.

    I make no secret that I am a graphic designer, self employed, and of course speak from that distortion. When I first started, when I was ehh... I guess 14 or 15, I started to do very basic graphic design on forums, which I gave away for free. I made banners, avatars, fanfiction covers. I wanted free stock art and free brushes to use in Photoshop. So what I did was, I designed some brushes to be used in Photoshop and posted them for free for other people to use, and a few stock photo packs, and a detailed tutorial on how to do the art I do. I often participate on forums relating to my art, and give free advice. Free information is very important to me, since I benefited so much from free resources as a teen, which is why I create it in my field.

    However, you also need to pay a few hundred dollars to hire me to draw for you now. No way am I going to make a free book cover. This is my job. This is how this reality works. Until we create a different economical situation that removes the need for energy exchange and functions on pure synchronicity (which is what I believe is the only thing that can usurp currency, but that's another story for another thread) you have to pay me to own a piece of my artwork if it wasn't something I created for funsies to give away. Of course my resources still exist, and people continue to benefit from them to this day. I've seen countless pieces of crappy artwork created with my resources by enthusiastic amateurs who don't have money to fling at buying better ones. This brings great joy to me, and I imagine it brings joy to many creatives. I'm sure tons of us would love to not be shackled to the money concept. But we are, just like you. If we want to share, please, give us the choice in the matter. Many living writers will give away free digital copies in exchange for a review. Using your local library keeps it ALIVE. If libraries are important, then don't substitute them for pirated book repositories. Use them, throw money at them, donate books to them, go to their events, write in them... libraries are great and it's pirated archives that are killing what they do best, in my opinion.

    I am all for free information. There's definitely room for an extensive book list with commentary on the books, links to purchase locations, for an archive of books in the public domain, for links to excellent papers published on the internet, and to ask authors and estates for permission to archive their PDF on this site.

    Ultimately, I think that people who pirate books aren't going to be the people who buy books, but I also don't think buying books is such a big deal. Usually you can buy an ebook copy for cheaper. Just like, buy the book you plan to read, and read it, and then save money for the next one if things are that tight. If they're not, you're just being cheap. Be nice to writers. Writers work real hard for not a lot of money or praise. You want to make the world a better place full of free information? That's an awesome cause and you really ought to do it on your own hard work, not by republishing other people's work. The library analogy is a non-sequitor; libraries don't give out infinite copies, they have a few that are shared in circulation. It would only be a fair equivalent if the archive here purchased a copy which had a time limit before it expires from the user's computer, and could then be transferred to a new person to view.

    I also buy music from indie bands and I don't whinge about it just because I do like listening to free music. I love when I stumble on a free live performance. Radios play ads, street performers pass the hat. That's how they survive, so if I received enjoyment I try to chip in. Can't take it with ya, at least not the money, but in my experience at least some knowledge has filtered through from past lives. I'd say knowledge is pretty important. If it's not the most important thing, it's pretty close. So since knowledge is the most important thing we can buy for ourselves here, something which shapes your whole life and those whom you interact with, is it so hard to pay the price of a meal out for a book? We get money to play with and use how we will once our expenses are met, we can spend it on something, why not on books? How fast do you read a book, anyway? It's not like I chew through a book a day. Well, at least not anymore. I did when I was a kid. I imagine most people, even if things are tight, have a bit of money to spend on non-essentials. I have definitely pushed things closer to almost homeless than I would have liked for a bit back there, and still I got by without pirating books. Really, in that situation I didn't have time or headspace to read anyway, I had to work to survive.

    I respect the urge behind it, I really do. I give so much stuff away. Sometimes time, sometimes time condensed into currency exchange. It's not about what's right or wrong, though, it's about respect. Respect for the authors wishes and their hard work. I know it's got wiggle room when they're dead and I'm sure many dead writers WOULD want people reading their books, but, that's what their estate is there for–to handle whatever their wishes on the matter were. Perhaps if I write books I will instruct my estate to immediately enter them into the public domain, but, that would be my decision.

    If you CAN buy a book you plan on reading, then you should. Just be responsible and don't hoard books you never plan on reading, like I've done... I keep telling myself someday, someday, but I'm sure some of these are not any day... heh. That should help keep things in check. Ebooks aren't even that expensive. Like some of them are expensive at like, $12? I'm sure I've seen the odd $15 or $20 ebook but still... not really that expensive for something that's going to impact my life. That's like an hour of my time? In exchange for hundreds of hours of work?

    And Avalon can certainly continue to facilitate book recommendations, directing people to knowledge with no harm done.

    It's a great sentiment. I'm all for sharing as much as I can! I also want the independent and amazing minds of our time to thrive in their spaces, not feeling the pinch of hunger and the fear of the internet sweeping everything they've done away into an uncontrollable current.

    Imagine you make a boat and it gets dragged away by the river without you in it.

    "You should be proud of your boat," your friends say, as it disappears down the river. "It's a beautiful boat. Many people will love seeing your boat and it will bring joy to them as it passes by."

    "But I was going to give river tours..."

    While the argument can be made that pirates are people who wouldn't buy the product in the first place, I think especially in a place focused on spiritual development it's important for us to consider the consequences of our actions, and do the best we can to benefit the world around us. Many people have been positively touched by the library, I can tell. I personally have never used the Avalon library archive that once existed. Now it's time for us to create a new positive influential repository. It will be different and I don't know how to best manage creating a new possible way to provide free literature to people who literally cannot make that money happen. Maybe a wishlist containing requested books and donators can buy it and have it shipped to the requester? So that it's possible to publicly connect people who have a desire for a book with a copy. Maybe it will take shape in the form of a community written piece of work that extensively covers the topics considered important from the most influential books, but in our voices, and offered freely, with information from our research through books we rightfully own and cite properly.

    What I do know is that people are being hurt by the free digital archive, so it's not the best solution for this world in the way it functions, even if it feels right because it resonates with a personal mission (ei: give away free information to anyone who wants to learn). So we find a way that doesn't hurt anyone. That's why we're here.
    May the Force be with you.

  38. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Tae For This Post:

    Caliban (5th August 2019), Strat (5th August 2019), Tinman (6th August 2019), WalterBosley (10th August 2019)

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