Dane Tops: the Camelot Church of Scientology whistleblower

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by TomKat (here)
I was never impressed by Dane Tops. He just repeated all the rumors most Scientologists heard in the 70s, and mixed in a lot of speculation regarding the govt. The supposed abilities that Hubbard engineered in people were all one-off events of the type any seeker might have in any spiritual practice such as yoga or meditation. Sure, there were some talented psychics like Pat Price and Ingo Swann. But Ingo had his abilities since age 4 and Pat Price spontaneously went out of body on the beginning course of Scientology and developed from there on his own. My advice, take everything Dane Tops says with a grain of salt. And, no, he is not any kind of whistleblower.

Yes, you're quite right about Pat Price and Ingo Swann, of course. And many others, too! Scientology processing — and (you're right again) quite a few other personal development techniques — will definitely enhance or help manifest latent or potential abilities that the person brings with them, but not create them out of thin air from nothing.

Like you, I'm sure, I've met many people who've never had a scientology session in their lives who have exceptional abilities, more so than some who've been in scientology for 20 years. It all depends on what the spiritual being brings with them, and what their past-lives history is.

But of course, as you know also, the party-trick abilities aren't the point. Any Buddhist Lama, or Hindu Sadhu, will tell you that. It's merely about awareness and perception, and completing unfinished business from the deep past. All we can do is clean up what's there (after we discover what's there!) — and in that respect every being, human or otherwise, is different.

But you're wrong about Dane. He was a whistleblower, of course. Read his actual letter.

For people who paid attention, he was able to help them make the life-changing break from the Church — while others of their contemporaries never understood what was happening, and are still imprisoned to this day. He wasn't the only one banging the drum, but he happened to do the right thing at just the right time, and really made a difference.

That really counts for something. He may not have saved anyone from death (though maybe he did!) — but he definitely saved lives.

[TomKat]

If he is so authentic, why does he back-date the Mission Holder's Conference (and the resulting the schism) to the end of 1981 instead of the end of 1982 when it actually happened? His letter was obviously written long after the fact and he had no role in the schism under the name of Dane Tops. I was in Scn in LA from 80 to 84 and I had never heard of anyone going by the name of Dane Tops. It seems he is trying to INSERT HIMSELF INTO HISTORY, perhaps to revive the mythology of Scientology of the 1970s, which was truly exciting and full of promise. The people most responsible for the schism in the U.S. were David Mayo, Alan Walter, Bill Franks, Larry West, Bill Robertson, and, MOST OF ALL: Jon Zegel whose series of tapes thoroughly exposed the true history of the Sea Org and Hubbard. Dane Tops' letter is merely a compilation of the things nearly everyone was saying back then. He was probably in LA in the schism period (based on some of the names he mentions), but I'd never seen his letter or heard of Dane Tops prior to Project Camelot.

The schism was actually started by David Miscavige in 1983 when he (after taking over for the AWOL Hubbard in 1982) started expelling virtually ALL of the leaders in the church "field." 1983 was interesting times, with a constant flow "goldenrod" (Supressive Person declares are written on gold-colored paper) on virtually all non-Sea Org opinion leaders, with Finance Police raids on missions, orgs and Scientologist-run businesses. Among the broad public the schism didn't really gather steam until 1984, when members still in good standing with the church were commonly seen at David Mayo's Sunday Barbecue in Santa Barbara. More and more Class 8 (the "keepers" of "standard tech") counselors were leaving the "Church of Miscavige" to work for David Mayo, or just take their own field practices out of the Church, such as Mark Jones, Virginia Downsborough, Valerie Stansfield, Trey Lotz, Sarge Gerbode, and I can't remember who else. We started spelling Scientology "scientology" or "$cientology" to distinguish the 2 versions of it post-schism. These Class 8's were the last bastion of Hubbard's "standard tech" in the field, but around 1987 a guy from Elmyra, NY, named Harry Palmer started a practice called Avatar which captured the imagination of all of these "standard tech hardliners" and nearly ended the popularity of standard tech outside the Church (and Miscavige had already ended it inside the Church). People stopped using e-Meters and started exploring shamanism and eastern mysticism. But even today, there persists a version of standard tech in the lower levels of Ron's Org in Europe and a scattering of field practitioners in LA, who advertise "70s-style scientology" or "80s scientology." Supposedly it's also quite popular in Russia, outside of the Church.

[Bill Ryan]

Several points here — and respect to you by the way: because clearly you were around in those times. (I was not!)

Posted by TomKat (here)
If he is so authentic, why does he back-date the Mission Holder's Conference (and the resulting the schism) to the end of 1981 instead of the end of 1982 when it actually happened?

There were two Mission Holder's Conferences: one on 6 December 1981, and the other on 17 October 1982.

From The Handbook of Scientology, edited by James Levey
(Google books link here, where much of the book is publicly available)

• https://books.google.com.ec/books?id...nce%22&f=false

See pp.466-7: (footnote 6, and also in the main text — also on many sx-scientology forums and discussion boards)

For a related discussion, refer to [Mark 'Marty'] Rathbun's account of the Mission Holder's Conference of 1981, which partly set the stage for the events at the 1982 Conference.

Posted by TomKat (here)
...had no role in the schism under the name of Dane Tops.

Well, that's not his real name, of course. That was just the moniker under which he wrote the letter.

Posted by TomKat (here)
The people most responsible for the schism in the U.S. were David Mayo, Alan Walter, Bill Franks, Larry West, Bill Robertson, and, MOST OF ALL: Jon Zegel whose series of tapes thoroughly exposed the true history of the Sea Org and Hubbard.

Yes.

Posted by TomKat (here)
Dane Tops' letter is merely a compilation of the things nearly everyone was saying back then.

Yes, it was a summary. There was a growing wave of demand for change back then.

Posted by TomKat (here)
He was probably in LA in the schism period (based on some of the names he mentions), but I'd never seen his letter or heard of Dane Tops prior to Project Camelot.

Yes, he was in the LA Org at that time.

Posted by TomKat (here)
But even today, there persists a version of standard tech in the lower levels of Ron's Org in Europe and a scattering of field practitioners in LA, who advertise "70s-style scientology" or "80s scientology." Supposedly it's also quite popular in Russia, outside of the Church.

Ron's Org was founded in 1983 by Bill Robertson, who (a) aimed to preserve Hubbard's techniques in unadulterated form (and deliver them ethically!), and (b) developed the advanced techniques to a very considerable extent.

Ron's Org is still very active, predominantly in Europe and Russia. The committee is based in Switzerland and Germany (mainly), but the majority of participants are in Russia, where there has been considerable expansion and the numbers of people working with very advanced techniques are in their many thousands.

[TomKat]

In 1976 Sea Org captain Bill Robertson was excited about a new organization chart ("org board") he had thought up, and he presented it to us staff during lunch. Next I heard of him was in 1983 or so, when I saw an expulsion order on the ASHO bulletin board describing how Bill had started a new group with a handful of followers to "put ethics in" on "sector nine" (this solar system) -- they reportedly carried baseball bats and claimed to be in telepathic contact with each other and animals. A few years later, when devising the Ron's Org advanced levels, he was charting entities on org boards... still with the org boards! Yes, he was quite crazy by then, wearing a dress at night to express his feminine side... one might say he was Ron's truest successor, being schizo and all. But odd as his advanced levels supposedly were, his lower levels were reportedly quite true to 70s Scientology.

I remember in the mid-90s there was a guy calling himself The Pilot (from the OT3 story) who had lots of people excited. He had concocted a past life history for himself that coincided with some of the stories Hubbard told about the "whole track" (life on alien planets, "invader forces"). He made the good point that the "Grade Chart" was upside-down, that one should start with entity removal first rather than last. But the excitement died down when his identity was revealed and it turned out he was quite dis-functional in life, unable to find work as a computer programmer during the tech boom, smelly, living in his car... There were a lot of people in the Sea Org and LA Org who seemed to be "degraded beings," who would likely have been bag people had they not found Scientology, joined staff and set about telling the rest of us what to do :-)

You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it. Jamie Sams ("Lea" channel and creator of a shamanic tarot deck) had a restaurant on Fountain Ave cater-corner from the big Scientology blue building. I already mentioned Avatar founder Harry Palmer, who once ran a Scientology mission in Elmyra. Shakti Gawain made a name for herself teaching visualization. More recently, there's Gary Douglas of Access Consciousness, where entity removal is a beginner's tool. There would be no -- zero -- secular exorcism without the ex-Scientologists who brought it into the neo-shamanism of the 80s (perhaps leading the Catholic Church to take it up again recently). And to this day, any New Age practice heavier than, say, aroma therapy -- anything with any real bite -- probably owes something to Scientology and/or shamanism (Scientology took a lot from shamanism also -- exorcism, sweat therapy).

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by TomKat (here)
odd as his advanced levels supposedly were, his lower levels were reportedly quite true to 70s Scientology.

You use the words 'supposedly' and 'reportedly', so that seems to imply (from this and and your other posts) that you may not know much about his work.

Yes, the 'lower' (less advanced) levels are very true to Hubbard's research. The advanced levels are based on the same foundation, and work extremely powerfully. References to 'organization' simply mean that groups of non-physical entities are often organized. (And, they are.)

Posted by TomKat (here)
I remember in the mid-90s there was a guy calling himself The Pilot.

Yes, his name was Ken Ogger. He was found dead in May 2007 in a swimming pool with his hands tied with wire and with weights on his feet.

Posted by TomKat (here)
You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it.

Yes. Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

[Noelle]

The Tops interview is fascinating -- and an eye-opener for me. I knew little about Hubbard, save for the Penthouse Interview with his son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. The article was published in June 1983, right around the time the shift took place. So this interview may have been part of a campaign to demonize Hubbard?

[wegge]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

[TomKat]

Posted by wegge (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

[TomKat]

Posted by LadyM (here)
The Tops interview is fascinating -- and an eye-opener for me. I knew little about Hubbard, save for the Penthouse Interview with his son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. The article was published in June 1983, right around the time the shift took place. So this interview may have been part of a campaign to demonize Hubbard?

LRH Jr saw an opportunity to demonize his dad, for sure. But people didn't take him seriously as he had left so long ago and by some reports was as crazy as his dad.

[TomKat]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)
You might be surprised at the number of leaders in the New Age who are ex-Scientologists but don't talk about it.

Yes. Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

I never met Jim Humble but I must say I was surprised when he described a touch assist on your interview of him, and it sounded like you were giving him credit for inventing it :-)

[wegge]

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by wegge (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

Thanks!
Can you recall what the talks were about?

[Icare]

Thank you for posting the link to the interview, Bill, I would never have actively looked for it otherwise.

As someone quite well-read on scientology - or so I thought - I felt I knew enough about it not to take any further interest in it. I read at least 3 books about what goes on in scientology (the last one being the one of David Miscavige's niece, the one before that being called "Blown for good"by a former member called Marc Headley).
I also watched several documentaries about it, mostly on Youtube and I must confess what Dane Tops claims about the people's perception of L.Ron Hubbard after the black ops interference exactly corresponds to my experience. I thought Hubbard was a money-grabbing, egotistic, sadistic maniac, a science fiction author who enjoyed fooling and controlling people. No way would I ever have contemplated doing auditing or anything like that.

After reading this interview my mind is blown - again.
It's another piece of the puzzle. And nothing surprises me anymore.

Now I'm even wondering whether I should do a course and get on that bridge.

Just in case you are reading this thread, Dane Tops, thank you so much and be well.

[TomKat]

Posted by wegge (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by wegge (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Three more on that list are Peter Moon, who wrote the Montauk series of books and had been with Hubbard on the Apollo in the 70s, Jon Rappoport, the investigative reporter, and Jim Humble, who invented MMS. (Humble was in the LA Org in the late 70s, and left with the mass exodus a few years later, as I believe Peter Moon did also.)

Thanks Bill for bringing this up, since Peter Moon (met him in NYC for doing Qi gong) and Rappoport became a huge influence in my life. How do you know Rappoport was in Scientology? I think I asked him once but he did not answer.

Rappoport used to give talks at the Scientology center in LA in the early 80s. I assumed he was a Scientologist but don't know for certain.

Thanks!
Can you recall what the talks were about?

I never went, but I assumed he was criticizing psychiatry and the LA Times, big enemies of Scientology.

Here he is on a list of Scientology Clears:

http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Clears_List

[James Newell]

Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by James Newell (here)
Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

Yes, I'd like to endorse James (Jim) here. He can work with clients remotely over Skype, he's trained to Class VIII, has MANY years (and thousands of hours) behind him, and has completed the Church OT8 (before he left) and the Ron's Org Levels to OT16 so far. For people who know what this means, he also delivers the 'L's. (Very few are trained to do that.)

For people who don't know exactly what all that means — he can help people with a lot of stuff, and knows absolutely what he's doing.

[TomKat]

Posted by James Newell (here)
Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

If you remove the group dynamic, it's good stuff. Personal insight regarding self-improvement, applied and enforced on a group, automatically is fascism.

[TomKat]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by James Newell (here)
Having been in the Church of scn for a number of years, and now free of the organization; I agree with much of what Dane says.
I still audit and I know the tech of it can give absolutely amazing results. But the organization definitely went bad. I think many of the people who used to be in and now hate it simply never actually received good standard auditing. They think they were getting it but really they misidentified that they weren't getting real auditing. Of course the org can turn anybody off and I understand that. If any want some real auditing let me know, I do my best to deliver it right in the Field.
www.getmoreable.com

Yes, I'd like to endorse James (Jim) here. He can work with clients remotely over Skype, he's trained to Class VIII, has MANY years (and thousands of hours) behind him, and has completed the Church OT8 (before he left) and the Ron's Org Levels to OT16 so far. For people who know what this means, he also delivers the 'L's. (Very few are trained to do that.)

For people who don't know exactly what all that means — he can help people with a lot of stuff, and knows absolutely what he's doing.

And if you ever run out of entities to run, start dissolving what they attach to, the id ("reactive mind").

[wegge]

I was just rereading Fundamentals of Success and have to say I love its practicality and deep insight
Does anyone have another book recommendation for DIY Scientology? (Specially about communication and Maybe some OT drills)

Regarding entities, I got one time a free session from someone who built a whole system around "first the entities the rest will take care of itself" and with hindsight I get the feeling that this actually brought on some more trouble in my 3rd eye frontal area.

[Cara]

@wegge, I don’t have a recommendation of a specific book for you but I can point you in the direction of a vast archive of materials:

http://www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/

This archive has many of the older versions of books as well as audios and transcripts of lectures.

[TomKat]

Posted by wegge (here)
I was just rereading Fundamentals of Success and have to say I love its practicality and deep insight
Does anyone have another book recommendation for DIY Scientology? (Specially about communication and Maybe some OT drills)

Regarding entities, I got one time a free session from someone who built a whole system around "first the entities the rest will take care of itself" and with hindsight I get the feeling that this actually brought on some more trouble in my 3rd eye frontal area.

Self-Analysis.