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Thread: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

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    Default Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    French president Emmanuel Macron cites Stephen Smith, an activist/academic on African issues, who says the best case scenario for Europe, in his estimation, is an "Eurafrique," or "Eurafrica," in other words a blurring of the distinctions between Europe and Africa.

    Here is an article on him and his philosophy in French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international...par-macron.php


    Now Macron is beginning to more openly try to sell these ideas to the French public, recently saying that, because of the demographic explosion in Africa, Europe and Africa will share a common destiny in the future.

    Quote Macron: Europe Entering Age of ‘Unprecedented’ Mass Migration, ‘Shares Destiny’ with Africa

    ‘Bombshell’ population growth in Africa means Europe is entering an “unprecedented” age of mass migration, Emmanuel Macron has said, asserting that the two continents’ destinies are “bound”.

    “The migratory phenomenon we are facing will be historic,” declared the French president in a television appearance Sunday night, when he announced that “great poverty”, “climate change”, and “geopolitical conflicts” will see Africans flooding into Europe “for many years to come”.

    To back up his point, Macron pointed to “bombshell” population growth across the third world continent, which he added has been “tremendously well described” by French-American journalist and professor Stephen Smith in a recent book.

    “[Africans] are mostly turning to Europe because the continent [of Europe] is not an island, because of our location, and because Europe has its destiny bound with Africa,” stated the vehemently pro-EU French figure during a two-hour long interview.

    Smith, the Africa expert to whom Macron referred during his appearance on BFMTV, estimates that the number of Africans living in Europe will grow from nine million to between 150 million and 200 million within the next 30 years.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018...estiny-africa/


    I just want to know: What do our European Avalonians think about this?

    Is this something you would vote in support of, if you were given the opportunity to vote on such a policy? Or would you rather see the native culture and populations of Europe protected by immigration restrictions? I see that a lot of Europeans are welcoming these mass migrations with open arms, and I'm wondering why they think this is a positive development. In the past, many Europeans fought and died to prevent such migrations and the violent clashes of culture they produced, but perhaps the days of defending European culture are over in the name of diversity.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    I notice that threads/posts posing questions like this get views, but it's like no one wants to touch them with a ten foot pole. I'm trying to figure out why that is. Is the topic too uncomfortable to talk about? Are people too offended to talk about it? Are they afraid of violating "hate speech" laws in Europe, so they stay silent? I don't get it. Maybe people just don't believe it's happening.

    It's a confusing phenomenon to me, especially when we are talking about 2000+ years of European culture, that has been strongly defended by Europeans for all of these years, suddenly being willingly given up by political leaders, with no popular referendum, to accommodate foreigners who are unwilling and unable to provide anything near the same courtesies in return. It just seems like a terrible deal to me, and it also seems like everyone is either too terrified or too offended to even talk about it. I guess in Britain you can even be locked up for what you say about it these days. Scary times.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    French president Emmanuel Macron cites Stephen Smith, an activist/academic on African issues, who says the best case scenario for Europe, in his estimation, is an "Eurafrique," or "Eurafrica," in other words a blurring of the distinctions between Europe and Africa.

    Here is an article on him and his philosophy in French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international...par-macron.php


    Now Macron is beginning to more openly try to sell these ideas to the French public, recently saying that, because of the demographic explosion in Africa, Europe and Africa will share a common destiny in the future.

    Quote Macron: Europe Entering Age of ‘Unprecedented’ Mass Migration, ‘Shares Destiny’ with Africa

    ‘Bombshell’ population growth in Africa means Europe is entering an “unprecedented” age of mass migration, Emmanuel Macron has said, asserting that the two continents’ destinies are “bound”.

    “The migratory phenomenon we are facing will be historic,” declared the French president in a television appearance Sunday night, when he announced that “great poverty”, “climate change”, and “geopolitical conflicts” will see Africans flooding into Europe “for many years to come”.

    To back up his point, Macron pointed to “bombshell” population growth across the third world continent, which he added has been “tremendously well described” by French-American journalist and professor Stephen Smith in a recent book.

    “[Africans] are mostly turning to Europe because the continent [of Europe] is not an island, because of our location, and because Europe has its destiny bound with Africa,” stated the vehemently pro-EU French figure during a two-hour long interview.

    Smith, the Africa expert to whom Macron referred during his appearance on BFMTV, estimates that the number of Africans living in Europe will grow from nine million to between 150 million and 200 million within the next 30 years.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018...estiny-africa/


    I just want to know: What do our European Avalonians think about this?

    Is this something you would vote in support of, if you were given the opportunity to vote on such a policy? Or would you rather see the native culture and populations of Europe protected by immigration restrictions? I see that a lot of Europeans are welcoming these mass migrations with open arms, and I'm wondering why they think this is a positive development. In the past, many Europeans fought and died to prevent such migrations and the violent clashes of culture they produced, but perhaps the days of defending European culture are over in the name of diversity.
    I may not have recalled this absolutely correctly but isn't this 'Eurafrica' concept Orwellian (Eric 'Blairite' if I'm being a little pedantic )?

    Certainly 'Eurasia' was.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...en_Eighty-Four

    Seems like Macron has simply stolen the concept.

    Admittedly not a topic that I get too worked up about, but the major issue I expect would be that this is likely forced migration as part of a globalist agenda possibly exacerbated by something awful, in future. People have for millennia, at least, naturally migrated: it's in our nature.

    I rather think that Stephen Smith's spiel here is a deliberate scare-mongering, psyop statement - that's an insane figure to pronounce and I sincerely doubt that any such number would ever certainly contemplate wilfully migrating unless 'persuaded' - as in left-with-no-choice-but - to do so.

    I wouldn't buy into it ie I would vote 'no'. Smacks a little of 'Mein Kampf' too, which is a little off-putting to say the very least.
    Last edited by Tintin; 18th April 2018 at 13:53.
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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Why don’t people talk! Not because it is too uncomfortable, but it is too complex, too entangled, anything but easy to see through. It has been the major topic for the last several years and the perfect tool to conceal the true intentions and actions of the players, to win elections, to implement laws, to set the tone in politics. It has permeated public life to the most minute detail, provided a stage for the most inhumane, hateful verbal outbursts, made them socially acceptable, it has brought out the worst in people.

    I’m convinced that the refugee / immigration influx was planned and is executed exactly on schedule. Nothing is happening by accident. What makes it so difficult to take an unequivocal stand in all this is the fact that the players have managed to manoeuvre the population into a paradoxic double bind situation. Whatever side they take they can only lose.

    That’s exactly what quoted Stephen Smith does: providing two contradictory, actually impossible ‘possibities’, excluding anything beyond. The crap Macron and Juncker are speaking and their motives are easily detectable. They’re just pathetic creatures backed by still invisible, ruthless powers.

    Clearly the European countries cannot open their borders and societies without limits, and it is equally unrealistic and dangerous to seal themselves off completely. The situation is perfectly gridlocked. With a lot of good will and rational thinking solutions could be found, but that’s not what is intended. Meanwhile people are paralysed with fear.

    I do not fear (even massive) immigration, they’re still people, humans. All my life I’ve lived in a rich, prospering country, a (compared to the majority of people on the planet) privileged life. If changes occur, I will deal with it. But I fear those powers, the way how they propagate and push mass migration, and their motives. To be precise: I don’t actually fear them, but I’m highly alert.

    What are the really terrifying threats? Artificial intelligence and nanotechnology in the hands of soulless madmen, militarized police state, the ruler’s satanic practices, total surveillance, mind control techniques targeting whole populations. Let’s put things in perspective. This is not whataboutism. Forced immigration and the above mentioned methods/plans are threats of total different quality, on different levels. The former is one of the applied tools to implement the latter. The players will not have to bring 200 million Africans into Europe, they just have to make the population fear it and go crazy. I don’t trust the socalled leftists, and I don’t trust Breitbart, at all. They’re on the same side.

    PS: Maybe, only maybe, Europe and Africa do share - to a certain extent - a common destiny, though in an entirely different meaning and context than Macron talked about. And it was not Africa who went out raping and plundering across other continents.
    Last edited by Iloveyou; 19th April 2018 at 08:53. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Europe is too progressive, too open minded and too informed for the likes of the controllers. Flood it with muslims. Flood it with Africans. That seems to be their last ditch attempt at controlling a Europe that is becoming less and less easy to control.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Take a look at Herve's last post about what just happened in France! It's like there is no Rule of Law! We don't have to obey "your laws" because we have our own cultural laws! The Global Plan has been relentless!

    I can under stand how some would be hesitant to even write their opinions on this subject now that we know EVERYTHING we say or write is monitored.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Macron, the globalist who has the gall to stand up in Europe and berate the EU for this trend towards authoritarianism, and supposedly advocate democratic values, just after he launched illegal aggression against Syria, without consulting his own Parliament.

    On the basis of this, and his general position as an establishment actor, one is tempted to see his utterances and views are all wrong or all bad.

    The truth is not so black and white. Africa to a degree is 'getting its act together' , so we are seeing economic and population growth there. This presents a threat to the European order. Leaders see that they are to a degree powerless if the hordes mobilise. Inherent dangers in our current economic order are the progress that produces more humans with the on going corruption and instability that often cause all the people to move and flee.

    So we face a choice. Either to struggle and fight against the flow of history - and humanity, or to push on to the destined civilisation that, due to its prosperity and justice, naturally excludes dangerous flows of refugees.

    Where is Macron in all of this? He is clearly an establishment stooge, but confronting policy challenges, such as strategic planning for the arrival of twenty million hungry humans in France.

    I wish I could tell him that the solution is to mobilise Europe to assist with an African economic revolution, that would make conditions there so healthy , that he would only have to worry about the supply of tourist hotel rooms in Paris.

    But that is not the direction he is going. I have met Algerians who describe the situation there as totally brutal- a French sponsored corporatist fascist society where oil is king, and murderous suppression of islamic ideas is the norm.

    Macron knows that a strong strategy is needed and things have to change. Him and his corporatist globalist cronies will be offering their solutions. These will include some kind of EU associate agreements for the North African arab countries, based on Arab style brutal tyranny with French characteristics, then an offer to these states for a Franco Arab new African colonialism, that will be as nasty as the previous exploitations. A corporate feeding frenzy, and a chance to eject the Chinese.
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 18th April 2018 at 21:36.
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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by Tintin Quarantino (here)
    I may not have recalled this absolutely correctly but isn't this 'Eurafrica' concept Orwellian (Eric 'Blairite' if I'm being a little pedantic )?

    Certainly 'Eurasia' was.
    Yes, it was Eurasia in Orwell:




    Even though Orwell excluded China, globalists today seem to want to go ahead and unite the entire world into some kind of matrix all at once. China is cementing financial and trade ties with Europe through Germany that may permanently bind Europe to China in the future. Before this whole mass migration thing out of the Middle East and Africa began, it looked to me more like a Chinese posturing to financially capture Europe.

    Quote Admittedly not a topic that I get too worked up about, but the major issue I expect would be that this is likely forced migration as part of a globalist agenda possibly exacerbated by something awful, in future. People have for millennia, at least, naturally migrated: it's in our nature.
    You forget to mention that historical mass migrations have almost always resulted in very violent warfare too.

    In fact I can't think of a single historical example of mass migration that didn't result in massive violence and warfare. Maybe there are such examples but they escape me. I can however recall the expansion of Islam into Africa and parts of Europe, including Spain, in the past. I can also recall the Crusades, and the endless wars with Native Americans that began from the very first day the Jamestown colonists got off their boats and were met with native arrows before any other form of communication.

    It's one thing when two culturally similar groups of people migrate among one another, though even that often leads to violence. It's something completely unprecedented when you are mixing completely incompatible cultures with one another. It becomes an excuse for the government to step in and recreate society from scratch as it deems fit, which is exactly what you are seeing happen in Europe now.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    I do not fear (even massive) immigration, they’re still people, humans. All my life I’ve lived in a rich, prospering country, a (compared to the majority of people on the planet) privileged life.
    Do you believe that your nation accumulated this "privilege" exclusively by exploiting others, as the message is often conveyed today? Or do you believe that cultural differences may have contributed to the differences between civilization in Europe as compared to other parts of the world?

    Japan as a society is arguably more advanced than Europe today in various ways, but it's interesting because they don't consider themselves as privileged and obligated to make room for mass migration from the rest of the world. Luckily they're also on an island so it's difficult to force mass migration on them as Soros has done to Europe.

    Quote PS: Maybe, only maybe, Europe and Africa do share - to a certain extent - a common destiny, though in an entirely different meaning and context than Macron talked about. And it was not Africa who went out raping and plundering across other continents.
    Actually they have been too busy raping and plundering each other to ever sufficiently organize for that. I notice that most people who talk about how much the west has victimized Africa never actually study Africa very much. Slavery, for example, continues in Africa to this day, and not simply in places like Libya which are subject to Islamic fundamentalism. Slavery and other barbaric practices are common in many parts of Africa to this day, with no help needed whatsoever from Europe. As someone who seems to have adopted the critical narrative of Europeans, were you even aware of that? Studying Middle Eastern societies would probably be enlightening as well.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    If Karma has anything to do with it, Europe should prepare to be inundated. Just think what our ancestors did in Africa, think about King Leopold II of Belgium, as one example.

    ( I recall a coach trip to Bruges. The tour guide asked us if we knew any famous Belgians. I said ' King Leopold' - there was a long silence)

    If Europe fears inundation, this probably includes mis-placed racism, but also the valid point- that life support systems in functional societies are damaged if too many un-supported people arrive at the same time.

    The dark side agenda includes bringing in lots of new people, it sows discord, and possibly much worse, but also feeds economic boom in those countries. It makes me think of the portrayal of a future Los Angeles in the original 'Blade Runner' movie.

    Trump is tapping into this anti-migration hicksville thinking. That is why he talks about a wall. In Europe the geography is different. The 'wall' has consisted of a screen of southern Mediterranean Arab states who have stopped the boat people. Until Sarkozy destroyed Libya, and we see the results. So Macron wishes to bring stability back to that region, and stop the boats. That means helping Libya to re-build, eject ISIS, stabilise etc.

    To me, the missing issue in this kind of thinking is WHY do people move?

    It is because of inequality and instability, the prosperous organised states FAIL to spread stability & prosperity to other areas, then suffer the migrational consequences. If the African countries could develop to their potential, they would be magnificent. Our own racism allows ourselves to ignore injustice, by thinking that these states are just too primitive & corrupt to sort themselves out. They are corrupt, but not inferior. They are subject to brutal corporate exploitation. They are not being allowed to build their own prosperity with their own resources.

    A friend from Cote D'Ivoire explained the Cocoa industry to me. If you want to grow cocoa beans there- that is fine. But you have to sell to a few corrupt companies in the country. you are not free to sell to whom you wish. Any shenanigans end with death. But those corrupt African entities are controlled internationally. The big corporate buyers minimise prices for their raw materials, and discourage any process of adding value of creating profits within Cote D'Ivoire- such as BUILDING A CHOCOLATE FACTORY. That will just not happen.

    So the help that Africa needs is not just states and individuals dropping coins into a donation box. Foreign aid is very very corrupt and often ineffectual. The real help would be to start dismantling the exploitative corporate control, that prevents hard working Africans from building their own wealth. If Europe does this, the flow of refugees and migrants will be modest and manageable. One can dream.
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 19th April 2018 at 11:03.
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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    If Karma has anything to do with it, Europe should prepare to be inundated. Just think what our ancestors did in Africa, think about King Leopold II of Belgium, as one example.
    Maybe you missed what I was pointing out above, but you're being a little bit one sided about this. Maybe you also missed the fact that slavery still exists in Africa today. It exists apart from Europeans. It existed before colonialism, it exists still today, and it exists regardless of Europeans getting involved in it. And that's just considering one social issue, though a rather important one if you consider slavery to be a moral ill.

    The thing about teaching that only Europeans are responsible for the evils of the world and that everyone else is a victim, is that it's actually not true. So you feel guilty for something for totally irrational reasons and then feel like you are obligated to do your penance to the world by importing the 3rd world into Europe and expecting some kind of rainbow utopia. I have bad news, but there's no indication at all that that's actually what is going to result from all of this.

    Study the history of whatever mass migration you want to choose and you're going to see major violence whenever two substantially different cultures collide. It doesn't matter what race or color or whatever they are, if the two cultures are substantially different, and they are competing for the same physical space, there is going to be a conflict.

    Quote ( I recall a coach trip to Gent. The tour guide asked us if we knew any famous Belgians. I said ' King Leopold' - there was a long silence)
    Yes, I'm sure they were all very impressed by you seeking to guilt trip them. God forbid anyone in Europe have any pride for the accomplishments of their ancestors. All Europeans are literally Hitler now apparently.

    Quote To me, the missing issue in this kind of thinking is WHY do people move?
    That's a very good question, and if you asked these migrants, I don't think you're going to hear it's because they want to come get a good job and work hard to build the civilization of the future. I just saw an article the other day that 90% of migrants in one European country were still unemployed and living off of social benefits (ie taxpayer money) after being there for over two years. You can chalk everything up to racism if it makes you feel more righteous than everyone else, but in the end it isn't going to change the culturally-learned behaviors of the people you are importing. If you import the 3rd world, you are going to get the 3rd world.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    I just saw an article the other day that 90% of migrants in one European country were still unemployed and living off of social benefits (ie taxpayer money) after being there for over two years.
    Hi, I don't disagree with your take on this.

    I would say however that , as they have over-done it in Sweden & Germany, the jobs market cannot respond immediately - but the people on benefits etc mostly want to work and participate. This is what I see in London. Prosperity, diversity, vitality, and mostly-harmony.

    I remember talking to a taxi driver in New Zealand. He said that he could not get a proper job, as a highly qualified engineer trained in India. In that situation, New Zealand benefited from a very diligent taxi driver, but India had lost a great engineer, and the resources devoted to training him. This will be the case with the people coming to Europe now. Places like Syria are being brain-drained. If they can be stabilised and rebuilt, many of those skilled people will want to return.
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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Tintin Quarantino (here)

    Admittedly not a topic that I get too worked up about, but the major issue I expect would be that this is likely forced migration as part of a globalist agenda possibly exacerbated by something awful, in future. People have for millennia, at least, naturally migrated: it's in our nature.
    You forget to mention that historical mass migrations have almost always resulted in very violent warfare too.
    Respectfully, and gently intentioned, that was a very deliberate act on my part, as it should have been stark staringly obvious - I didn't feel the desire to elaborate on that. I am of course well aware of this.

    You've made some very salient points in your response too, and thanks: nicely laid out
    Last edited by Hervé; 19th April 2018 at 14:08. Reason: Fixed nested quotes
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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    A Voice from the Mountains, I knew you would object to what I said. People with different backgrounds and different personal stories will always take different approaches. From an US American angle one might draw different (legitimate) conclusions. Anything else would be boring to no end. I’m afraid there is no objective truth - except in situations when it comes down to individuals and their actual behavior. When people interact in challenging/critical situations, then certain truths might be revealed. Everything else is interpretation, theories, assumptions. From my side, too. I’m well aware of that.

    African societies are in no way ‘better’, more peaceful or more compatible/tolerable with life on planet Earth than the highly technologised West. They are infected by the same mind parasites, manipulated by the same dark forces as everyone else walking the planet for the last thousands of years. I guess. Although the industrialised nations have not the tiniest reason to feel superior, they do - because of technology and military power.

    It is very much appreciated having electricity 24/7, lots of clean water, modern health care, the freedom to choose a career or to travel anywhere in the world as long as I’m lucky to save a bit of extra money. But what about all the things we (as wealthy societies in Central European countries) have lost: a certain relaxed attitude, a bit less slave-like (pun intended) relation to time, bit less pressure to succeed, respect for the older generation, awareness and appreciation of our ancestors, of family traditions, contact to the invisible, spiritual world (still with all its negative implications like black magic, too, sure ... )

    Saying that Europe and Africa could learn from each other, enrich each other mutually, would sound starry-eyed, I know - though somewhere along these lines I see chances, future potential. And the basis would be individual actions, individual independence.

    I’m not blind to the current situation. The elite (Soros) is throwing ‘human stock’, ‘human material’ (the German word ‘Menschenmaterial’ is actually untranslateable) as a weapon of mass migration into the battle, expecting them to destroy each other. We should not comply in any way, on neither side.

    My very basic English prevents me from being more precise, more detailed - and I noticed I’ve not answered your questions. I will, later ...

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    It is very much appreciated having electricity 24/7, lots of clean water, modern health care, the freedom to choose a career or to travel anywhere in the world as long as I’m lucky to save a bit of extra money. But what about all the things we (as wealthy societies in Central European countries) have lost: a certain relaxed attitude, a bit less slave-like (pun intended) relation to time, bit less pressure to succeed, respect for the older generation, awareness and appreciation of our ancestors, of family traditions, contact to the invisible, spiritual world (still with all its negative implications like black magic, too, sure ... )
    As somebody who has studied the way Europeans have lived since Roman times, I'm not sure when was the last time Europeans didn't live as if they were racing the clock, which is what prevents a "relaxed attitude" I think, as you put it. There is a very practical reason for this: winter.

    In many more hospitable parts of the world, you don't have to worry about winter, because temperatures never go below freezing, and there is edible food growing year round. That's very nice, and allowed for more relaxed cultures and attitudes to develop over very large periods of time. Agriculture in these places also tended not to develop as intensively, for the same reason: there was no pressing need. There was no need to store food for the winter, or build insulated shelters, or any of that sort of thing which required a lot of extra labor.

    In Europe and other parts of the world that experience bitter winters, it's become very ingrained into the cultures (and people who believe in Darwinian evolution argue ingrained in genetics as well -- though I have some skepticism about Darwinian evolution when it comes to mankind for various reasons) that we have to adapt and prepare for several months of brutal cold in which nothing can grow. We're in much more comfortable positions today but a lot of that intense worth ethic, whether one sees that as a moral ill or not, is still a core value for many Europeans, whereas in other parts of the world it often is not because it never had to be.

    Quote I’m not blind to the current situation. The elite (Soros) is throwing ‘human stock’, ‘human material’ (the German word ‘Menschenmaterial’ is actually untranslateable) as a weapon of mass migration into the battle, expecting them to destroy each other. We should not comply in any way, on neither side.
    That's much easier for you to say, as a European acclimated to greater personal liberties, than the military-aged men who are coming in from war zones with a chip on their shoulder against Europe and Europeans already, and from much more authoritarian cultures. As much as Europeans have been taught to beat themselves up over colonialism, etc., the people coming in from the areas these past policies have impacted have an even bigger chip on their shoulder, and so you have to understand that integration into existing European culture is in no way desirable for many of these people for that reason alone.

    If you lived in Iraq or Syria and there were constantly Europeans meddling in the affairs of your people, so that you came to view them as the "Great Satan," etc., and then you were offered a free trip to Europe, imagine how eager you would be to integrate into that society. Not very eager at all I would imagine! Not to mention that in their religion, which many of them are very devoted to, many things in Europe are pure evil, such as women being allowed to walk around half naked, or in some parts of Europe, completely naked. Coming from countries where women are supposed to cover up, and where women are supposed to obey what they are told by men, you can't erase these kinds of deeply-ingrained values overnight and it's only natural for these people to have urges to treat women harshly for what they view as degrading and sinful.

    The price for cultural exchanges like this are going to have to be some form of compromise ultimately, which is why you see the question of legislation in accordance with Shariah law beginning to pop up in some parts of Europe, or political parties forming which advocate for Shariah. It is an unreasonable expectation that you relocate large populations of people from these different cultures and expect them all to conform to European values all at once when they have no experience or understanding of how people are used to living in Europe. That's why in the past immigration has generally been much more restricted and came with an expectation that immigrants would conform to existing cultures. With migrations on this scale, the native populations of Europe are going to have to do some integration as well, whether they agree with the incoming values or not, and that is the practical and legal form that this enrichment is going to have to take.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    I do not fear (even massive) immigration, they’re still people, humans. All my life I’ve lived in a rich, prospering country, a (compared to the majority of people on the planet) privileged life.
    Do you believe that your nation accumulated this "privilege" exclusively by exploiting others, as the message is often conveyed today? Or do you believe that cultural differences may have contributed to the differences between civilization in Europe as compared to other parts of the world?
    Many factors contribute to the difference between civilizations, but 500 years of colonialism (plus more than 50 years of neo-colonialism) in Africa shattered the continent and its populations in a way that they have not recovered yet. There has never even been made the smallest effort in that direction. No healing work has been intended. Additionally to the hard facts of economic exploitation the wound has been kept open deliberately.

    This is not so much different from a family tragedy. The consequences of a crime committed decades ago, covered up or kept secret or just not talked about, a debt never settled, might become an issue for the grandchildren, generations later. It is not a question of guilt. No person alive today is guilty. I do not feel guilt. But the tragedy, the crime, the issue will not disappear as long as it is not dealt with in a honest, responsible way. It always affects the offender and the victim.

    The elite know this very well and among other aspects they try to instrumentalise that unfinished process, and to direct it towards an outburst of hatred and violence, again (this time in Europe).

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Japan as a society is arguably more advanced than Europe today in various ways, but it's interesting because they don't consider themselves as privileged and obligated to make room for mass migration from the rest of the world. Luckily they're also on an island so it's difficult to force mass migration on them as Soros has done to Europe.
    I’d rather not talk about Japan much. They seem to have a great burden to bear. Think of their major inner social problems.

    Karoshi (overwork induced death), Hikikomori (reclusive adolescents or adults who withdraw from social life, seeking extreme degrees of isolation and confinement, Chikan (sexual harrassment in crowded conditions on public transit), Inseki jisatsu (the honorable act of responsibility-driven suicide).

    Japan’s overall suicide rate is roughly 60 percent higher than the global average.

    Incarceration rates in Japan are high at a 99% conviction rate (many reports of forced confessions, prosecutors are under pressure, failure to convict is seen as inefficient and unacceptable.

    Pornographic manga and other adults literature are exposed in any convenient store, shelved at young kids' height. Until recently (2010s) one could legally buy pedophilia and incest themed manga.

    Japan’s unique culture of conformity, insularity, sacrifice and order surely cannot afford to care about anything else except their own island. Now, this was off-topic and not first hand experience. I found such information over and over again.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    It is very much appreciated having electricity 24/7, lots of clean water, modern health care, the freedom to choose a career or to travel anywhere in the world as long as I’m lucky to save a bit of extra money. But what about all the things we (as wealthy societies in Central European countries) have lost: a certain relaxed attitude, a bit less slave-like (pun intended) relation to time, bit less pressure to succeed, respect for the older generation, awareness and appreciation of our ancestors, of family traditions, contact to the invisible, spiritual world (still with all its negative implications like black magic, too, sure ... )
    As somebody who has studied the way Europeans have lived since Roman times, I'm not sure when was the last time Europeans didn't live as if they were racing the clock, which is what prevents a "relaxed attitude" I think, as you put it. There is a very practical reason for this: winter.
    That’s a major point. I’d also add that it is not only not necessary, it is simply impossible to maintain an equally highly effective work ethic in hot climate zones.

    I’m not talking about strong work ethic, discipline, ambitions, I’m thinking of the excessively pushed forward military industry, the insane pressure to perform, competitive pressure, economic and technological growth as an end in itself, with no relation at all to people’s needs. Working and living conditions that are deliberately designed to break people. That scares me.

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote I’m not blind to the current situation. The elite (Soros) is throwing ‘human stock’, ‘human material’ (the German word ‘Menschenmaterial’ is actually untranslateable) as a weapon of mass migration into the battle, expecting them to destroy each other. We should not comply in any way, on neither side.
    That's much easier for you to say, as a European acclimated to greater personal liberties, than the military-aged men who are coming in from war zones with a chip on their shoulder against Europe and Europeans already, and from much more authoritarian cultures. As much as Europeans have been taught to beat themselves up over colonialism, etc., the people coming in from the areas these past policies have impacted have an even bigger chip on their shoulder, and so you have to understand that integration into existing European culture is in no way desirable for many of these people for that reason alone.

    If you lived in Iraq or Syria and there were constantly Europeans meddling in the affairs of your people, so that you came to view them as the "Great Satan," etc., and then you were offered a free trip to Europe, imagine how eager you would be to integrate into that society. Not very eager at all I would imagine! Not to mention that in their religion, which many of them are very devoted to, many things in Europe are pure evil, such as women being allowed to walk around half naked, or in some parts of Europe, completely naked. Coming from countries where women are supposed to cover up, and where women are supposed to obey what they are told by men, you can't erase these kinds of deeply-ingrained values overnight and it's only natural for these people to have urges to treat women harshly for what they view as degrading and sinful.
    Still I have not made up my mind regarding the ratio between the nature and numbers of real violent incidents and cases of propaganda. All the reports from dangerous Islamic neighborhoods in British cities, the fights between immigrants and police in France, the sexual harrassement and rapes in Swedish cities ... how do you know that all this is 100% authentic! That the immigration movement and those crimes are identical. Couldn’t it be that these riots and clashes with police are to a large degree staged (with real perpetrators and real victims), a different kind of ‘false flag’. That these aggressive rowdies are brought into Europe in large groups with clear instructions - and that we should not lump them together with immigrants from wartorn or economically devastated regions.


    Islam does not equaI Islam. I’m thinking of Morocco for example, or other West African countries, where Islam blended with pre-Islamic African traditions. It is not exclusively Wahabism, Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Sharia, battle for world supremacy. They are the paid agents of the actual criminal caste who seek to turn human civilisation into a prison camp for zombies. For sure we know that, it’s just too easy to loose focus.

    I’ll rather push the submit button now before I’m getting lost who knows where. Thank you for reading and taking the time to respond.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Many factors contribute to the difference between civilizations, but 500 years of colonialism (plus more than 50 years of neo-colonialism) in Africa shattered the continent and its populations in a way that they have not recovered yet.
    You know, there were parts of Africa that were isolated from colonialism for much, if not all of that 500 year period. Zimbabwe for instance wasn't penetrated for colonization until the 1800's because of its largely-inaccessible terrain. There was no paradise there when Europeans showed up. It's not like they moved in and ruined everything good they had going on.

    Using Zimbabwe as an example, first of all the very idea of such a nation didn't exist before the colonial period. The territory held different tribes of people that were antagonistic toward one another and had been at war since before Europeans were ever in the area, specifically the Shona and N'dbele.

    Not only were they already at conflict with one another over territory, but they weren't agricultural yet either. It was British rule which both enforced peace between the two groups and introduced large-scale farming to the region. When British rule ended, the Shona began a genocide of the Ndebele people before turning on the whites as well, at which point farming activities ceased and a severe famine struck the country, causing countless people to starve to death.

    When you talk about colonialism as if it were a pure evil that set African nations back hundreds of years or whatever the idea is, I don't think you're actually taking into account the reality of the history of these places before, during, and after colonialism. Blaming Europeans for everything in the 3rd world is becoming a terrible cliché and it was never historically accurate to begin with.


    Quote I’d rather not talk about Japan much. They seem to have a great burden to bear. Think of their major inner social problems.
    I didn't say they were completely free of social problems. I could sit here and write up a scathing critique of everything wrong in western civilization right now, but we've all heard it before and it would be a pointless exercise. Japanese society is still very orderly, clean, respectful, and technologically advanced compared to the West, and they don't have to deal with trying to force foreigners to integrate, which would only be an additional burden upon them that they actually don't already have.


    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Still I have not made up my mind regarding the ratio between the nature and numbers of real violent incidents and cases of propaganda. All the reports from dangerous Islamic neighborhoods in British cities, the fights between immigrants and police in France, the sexual harrassement and rapes in Swedish cities ... how do you know that all this is 100% authentic!
    First Germany and Sweden denied the existence of "no go zones," but their government officials have since been forced to admit their existence, including Merkel herself. Talk to someone who actually lives in one of these areas and ask them directly if the stories of violence are true. The pattern in European media is to suppress this information, not to make up false stories intentionally to demonize the foreigners. In fact in countries such as Sweden you can be punished legally for saying something bad about the foreigners, so there should be no doubt what agenda the governments are pushing and which way their bias is leaning.

    Quote Islam does not equaI Islam. I’m thinking of Morocco for example, or other West African countries, where Islam blended with pre-Islamic African traditions. It is not exclusively Wahabism, Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Sharia, battle for world supremacy.
    All forms of Islam hold Muhammad up as their role model, and Muhammad was no Jesus. Christianity for example has no concept equivalent to jihad and no justification for child marriages.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 21st April 2018 at 09:02.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    You are right. Many things could be said on both sides that have been heard before numerous times. There must be a space beyond this dichotomy of opinions and conclusions, where the real challenges of human societies (be it US, Europe, Japan, Muslim countries or Third World) are named. Probably that would lead into the realm of individual and social character structures and mass psychology, entirely different (and vast) topics. I very much appreciate you sharing your knowlede and insights.

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    Default Re: Macron says Europe and Africa share a common destiny: Eurafrica?

    I would hope it would lead back to individuals, and individual self-improvement, because I don't even like the idea of trying to radically change entire societies from the top-down, so to speak. Whenever leaders try to force massive social change there are always unforeseen consequences, or in many cases foreseen consequences.

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