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Thread: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

  1. Link to Post #21
    Avalon Member Kryztian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Thanks Daozen, for putting out some guidelines on how we can all write better posts. My only difference with you is that for me, the problem is not the long posts but the short ones. My suggestions to add to your list:
    • If you start a thread and post a link or quote or in anyway reproduce someone else’s work, preface it with some words of your own. Tell us why we may want to read or examine this material instead of just assuming it is self evident. Expect that there will be comments and questions on the material and check back to see if there is a thread. Take responsibility for your post by getting involved in the discussion and expect that you are going to do so when you submit the post.
    • If you are going to submit a long post (great!) then you might want to write it first in a word processor or other program to make it easier to organize your thoughts. This would probably allow you to save them and write these posts over time.
    • Understand that not everyone here has English as their first language. If you do, hold your self to a higher standard. We are blessed to have people from lots of parts of the world whose culture, language and syntax, etc. give us some very different insights as to what is going on in the world.
    • Don’t just preach to the choir. Challenge people. And not just ordinary people, but challenge us Avalonians with your well thought out and well presented ideas. It is nice when people click the “thanks” button beneath my post, but it is a much higher complement when someone can add to my ideas or, the best compliment of all, challenge them in a way that makes me scratch my head and rethink what I wrote. So challenge people and expect them to politely challenge you back!
    • WRITE DAMN IT!!! You have a sea of thoughts passing through your mind 24/7 and there are some pearls in that sea. There are most definitely flashes of brilliance, wisdom and insight that pass though. Put them into words, and put those words into logical sentences and paragraphs, and finally, share them with us and with the world. Our thoughts are the key to our liberation and our enlightenment, and one of yours might just be the next key to unleashing a lot of greatness on this planet.
    Last edited by Kryztian; 20th April 2018 at 16:25.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by JoefromtheCarolinas (here)
    When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.
    I want to second this the most. I basically ignore some peoples posts because of this exact thing. I found it too hard to tell when they are just copypasta or giving two cents.
    I agree this needs a bit more attention here. If you are the original writer, make that clear. If you are not the original writer, make that clear as well. I recall going off on Bob a little once because I was confused between what he had quoted and what was an original thought, as I didn't see a clear delineation. There was a little delineation, but not enough that my mind didn't miss it.

    Many posts have a mix of original and copied text, and I think in the vein that the art of communication is trying to ensure that the reader gets the message as intended by the writer, a clear indication of what is what might really help avoid confusion, and the effort sometime needed in clearing that.

    I struggle with extremely long posts and often skip them. I heard a suggestion here on PA, maybe from Bill, that it sometimes is better to break extremely large pieces of thought into several smaller posts, to make it more digestible for some.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by JoefromtheCarolinas (here)
    When I see long posts with links and quotes, I have a tough time figuring out the difference between a quote, and a member’s original thoughts on the subject.
    I want to second this the most. I basically ignore some peoples posts because of this exact thing. I found it too hard to tell when they are just copypasta or giving two cents.
    To distinguish between my commentary and, say, an article that I think has much merit to include on a particular subject I will invariably lead off the post with a small piece/view from myself, and delineate --------------- and sometimes abbreviate my name in parenthesis below my contribution and then share the article body text.

    This tends to do the trick. Or at least, it should.

    That I hope makes things pretty clear.
    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Tintin Quarantino (here)
    To distinguish between my commentary and, say, an article that I think has much merit to include on a particular subject I will invariably lead off the post with a small piece/view from myself, and delineate --------------- and sometimes abbreviate my name in parenthesis below my contribution and then share the article body text.
    Better visually may be to use indents. I always use 4 of them. Like this:

    ***********

    My intro comment.
    • Link (which I always emphasize with a bulletpoint)
    The article.
    Or maybe a quote from it.
    Like this...
    Closing comment, if there is one.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy.

    There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.
    I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.
    Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

    So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

    Is that the intention of this community?
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

    So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

    Is that the intention of this community?
    thank you thank you tbank you, I bow to your comment

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy.

    There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.
    I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.
    Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really.
    Yes, I know, my comment about Hemignway is that nobody else than American - British above 40 understand the reference.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    I know no one is criticising me here Bill.

    My point is that I do make some efforts to correct myself when writing, I do think about it (except in this thread) before writing, and I still feel lost at times with too many acronyms, too many demands on quality of writing.

    Furthermore, why but why someone like Nat'lee is not writing more? or why someone like Gaia often search content with what she means, already written in English, to help her?? Both have abilities in writing English that are so so, therefore, they are not writing much.

    Not only is that difficult for them, but if you add some grammatical demands, or even some posting, to people who already are making major efforts to write or to search in the dictionnary to understand, well, you lose them.

    Add to this cultural differences with not many common cultural references and it is done, gone are the members, over is their participation.

    When I want to relate to geology, I refer to Hervé for easy writing on the topic and for added knowledge, I am not asked and I do not ask to know how mountains are created or how to differentiate stones and do mining.

    Same with writing in English, for non anglo-saxons or for language handicaped people. You should not ask these people to master the language, in any form, period.

    To me, it is the content that is important, in fact, very important. Not the ways it is written, as long as with a bit of efforts I can understand.

    Believe me, we are missing quite a lot of content from a wide variety of people when we become too demanding on the communication skills, within a specific language.

    Please, reread all the posts in this thread all in a row, while putting yourself in someone else's shoes, someone who cannot master English or who has language handicap.

    The feeling it leaves is terrible: very demanding, incompetence of oneself, decrease self esteem (hourray, I can write in a language not mine, instead it becomes sh it, I am truly bad), questions (is it worth it - what is more important, formating and grammar or content), feeling not understood and even rejected. Discouragement.

    There is even a suggestion from Hervé to take formatting courses - please, give me a break, I am here for knowledge, sharing and fun! I am not going to take any course for that!!

    Why not take people as they are and help them, all of us members?? (not talking about the poor lost loonies or the troll, but talking about quite regular ordinary folks)

    Ernie expressed it wonderfully in a few words.

    Quand ça devient trop difficile, trop exigent, je fuis, tout comme les autres. Pas compliqué non?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Bill, you lived in Africa, now in South America, had Canadian parents and are British. How come this is not taken into account? Try to write in Spanish, and you will see. EAsy to understand that a break has to be given.
    Hey, Flash!

    No-one is criticizing you here. Not one tiny bit. Certainly not me. You write beautifully, and I love it. I wrote here, a month ago:

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    I wish to express my deep admiration and appreciation of all those here who are not native English speakers.
    Yes, truly.

    In fact — and I do hope everyone understands this quip! — I REALLY REALLY enjoy reading Flash's posts. (For newer members: Flash lives in Montreal, and French is her first language.) They're thoughtful and beautifully crafted, and sometimes very slightly quirky. Her heart and meaning invariably shine through brightly.

    It's like listening to a lovely accent. If they suddenly became flawlessly perfect... I'd feel something was lost in translation.

    Last edited by Flash; 20th April 2018 at 18:26.
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  16. Link to Post #29
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.
    I think most of the advice offered here is to help people communicate more effectively and to write better posts. There are all types of writing here, from the okay to the good to the really great. I think we are just trying to encourage people to create more of the great and less of the okay. I would hate to discourage people from writing at all. And the ones who are writing truly great stuff, well, i would like to challenge them to do even better too.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I am starting to think maybe it is better that the complainers simply tell the rest of us what to and not to post. Save everybody lots of aggravation.

    So many judgements even I will be leery about posting in future.

    Is that the intention of this community?
    thank you thank you tbank you, I bow to your comment

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    I fall into the ADHD category and I LOVE words. Simplicity in explanation will always grab me. My eyes do start rolling in the back of my head when I see unnecessarily wordy posts. And I ain't no dummy.

    There's a reason Ernest Hemingway is considered one of the world's great writers.
    I don't give a fu ck about Hemingway, I never read him. I am not here to write like Hemingway anyhow, and if it is what you want all of yous, I will leave.
    Flash, I was simply offering a perspective which was in no way an attack on you or anyone. I admire your fu ck ing spirit. Really.
    Yes, I know, my comment about Hemignway is that nobody else than American - British above 40 understand the reference.
    Flash, when I see your name, I always read your posts. That's the truth. And I don't do that for everyone. If I landed in Montreal, I'd be in big trouble. I know a smattering of Spanish and that's it. Ironically, my great-grandparents spoke french and english. However, in that day and time (early 1900's) english was pushed in America as THE language to communicate with.

    I believe America was very wrong not to educate people bi-lingually at the very least. Language is the stuff of God, in my opinion, and you are way ahead of me in that department.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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  20. Link to Post #31
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Please, reread all the posts in this thread all in a row, while putting yourself in someone else's shoes, someone who cannot master English or who has language handicap.
    Flash — and everyone!

    This thread isn't about writing. It's about formatting.

    The two are quite different! Some of the advice given here might be helpful to someone writing on a forum in French, or Bulgarian, or Chinese.

    And it's not about criticism, of anyone. It's about advice, and ideas, and feedback. It's really a kind of little seminar about how best to format one's posts to make them as readable as possible. And that's in EVERYONE's interests. We're just talking about presentation.

    Your posts are perfect as they are, Flash. There's nothing to change. Some of the important points made so far in the thread apply to others who (e.g.) sometimes write in big blocks of unbroken text, or confuse readers by not quoting properly.

    It's really just a bunch of helpful tips. That's all.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 20th April 2018 at 19:09.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Edited my post. Bill's post above says similar to what I was saying.

    Never mind
    Last edited by Orph; 20th April 2018 at 19:24.
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  24. Link to Post #33
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.

    Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.

    I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"

    *SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing!

    Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.

    It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 20th April 2018 at 19:55.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    It's nice, it's nice, it's nice to be concise.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    • break up paragraphs to not be more than 5-6 lines on a full screen. 2-3 lines is better.
    There is one rather odd exception to this rule that I allow myself sometimes.

    If I have some long and tedious explanation for some point, in the middle of what I hope are some more interesting, and brief, points, I might write that long explanation in a single, large, paragraph.

    Then only those who are really bored, or really intrigued by my thoughts, bother to read that long paragraph.

    The rest, the happy majority, will easily skip past that long paragraph, perhaps to see if I wrote anything of interest in the remaining, shorter, paragraphs.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
    What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?
    My quite dormant website: pauljackson.us

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
    What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?
    "Tabbed" text, ie the Tab key = "indented".

    A "blocked" paragraph = insert a hard "return" (2 x taps on the Return key after a paragraph), leaves a blank line between each paragraph (looks like this):

    Without either, we just get a "wall" of text; everything lines up flush left with no easily-discernible paragraph breaks, (it's pretty ugly, & difficult to read, especially a very long article! - ie my original post (above), is "blocked".

    With the hard returns removed & no indenting (ie, non-blocked/non-tabbed), it looks like this):

    --------------------
    From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
    Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.
    I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"
    *SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing!
    Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.
    It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).
    --------------------
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 22nd April 2018 at 03:02.

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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    What is a "non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph" ?
    The standard practice for the manual typewriter was to return the carriage twice to create space between paragraphs and use the tab key for each paragraph. The tab was adjusted to five spaces, but you could change it like the sample below; either hit the tab twice or adjust the tab to 10 spaces. For formal business letters, some elected to use the block print method which there were no paragraph indentations.

    Word processors come with a variety of templates similar to what was used in the 1900’s for business, academics and the less formal writing styles.

    When I was in high school, it was a big deal when the business department upgraded to the electric typewriter. It took some getting use to from pounding the manual keys to a light touch, automatic return carriage and quicker typing speeds.


    Last edited by RunningDeer; 21st April 2018 at 01:39.

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  32. Link to Post #38
    New Zealand Unsubscribed
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    Even worse is setting everything to "flush right"... (sometimes it works depending on how it's used, ie, if you're running text around a strange shape or picture or object... this is usually reserved for magazine spreads or captions with relatively short column widths... not good in here)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From a design perspective, I don't know why or how the non-tabbed or non-blocked paragraph trend started. It became a "fashion" back in the nineties.
    Some of the biggest ad agencies (who should know better from a design angle), began duplicating the trend in wordy ads; magazines started doing it with articles, and possibly, that lack of formatting translated over to the general public as, "well if the experts can do it, we can too" mentality.
    I had to point out to my business partner at the time, who is a brilliant designer btw, NOT to do it. His excuse, "ahh but everyone else is doing it; it's the new look!". (Not helped by designers who justify it with, "It's good to be different,"). My response to that was, "No, it's just lazy! The whole idea of indenting or blocking paragraphs is making the [paragraph] breaks easy to find!"
    *SIGH* - He STILL does it - it's now become a habit, but words were never really his thing!
    Another trend which still remains today, is overly long/width lines of text.
    It can't really be avoided in here, but most people have difficulty reading a line of text that is longer than 72 characters wide (including spaces).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ALL CAPITALS is another "no no" for entire paragraphs/posts... (except for really short sentences, headlines, subheads, etc... and comic books)

    And then there's emphasis, like using bold or italic or coloured type, size, etc ...

    This forum has some very good tools to do this, but beware... the trick is knowing when and how;

    "If you emphasize everything, then nothing is emphasized"

    It's a "Design 101" thing - it can get complicated... simple is best, less is more
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 21st April 2018 at 00:52.

  33. Link to Post #39
    Scotland Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    I said a few times: In the title, and in the OP, that if people wanted to write a lot, that's their business. I emphasized that formatting is key. Long posts look good if you just format them correctly. Granted, I was somewhat polarizing in my delivery. Why? Because the Avalon wall o' type issue has been brought up a couple of times, and some writers are as verbose and badly formatted as ever. So I figured I would gently turn up the heat. It is your right to be wordy. It's my right to comment on it. You stepped in this thread of your own volition, grasshopper.

    Now look at the stakes:

    I am here, like Princess Leia, on a mission of mercy. I have limited time on Earth. I have even more limited time on Project Avalon. One of my aims is to advance the subject of healing and human health as far as I possibly can, while I am on Earth. Many of you have the same goal. We have already built a fantastic healing archive, and it will only get better. I am going to be 90 one day. I want to be as healthy as possible when I am that age. As others have mentioned, true anti-aging technology is already coming out. It will take a lot of work to parse through all that data.

    *

    My posts must be formatted as well as they can, so I can draw the best contributors to my threads. Second, I want to write clearly and concisely, to benefit the many lurkers who read these fora. Do I want a young person to lose out on a heart disease cure because I am too lazy to format my writing?

    No.

    Likewise, if I write about water technology or farming, I have to make sure my posts are accesible and clear. I am a mortal. My future is stake. I cannot afford to lose anyone due to sloppy formatting. If you do not feel the pressure of the ages, more power to you, immortal wordsmith.

    So write in clumps and clods if you desire, but I ain't gonna read your posts, and a ton of lurkers won't either. Now you know the stakes, you may make a free will choice.

    If you spend 30 minutes writing a post, I suggest spending 90 seconds formatting it. Is that too much to ask? For some of you, yes.

    *

    Not formatting your posts tells me:

    - You don't respect reader's time.
    - You don't respect the human need for beauty and order.


    If you disregard these basic universal needs, how good will your posts be? The internet offers value for money, but we could go one better and offer value for time.
    Last edited by Daozen; 20th April 2018 at 23:38.

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  35. Link to Post #40
    United States Avalon Member bobme's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overly wordy, lazily formatted or wall o'type posts will dilute the radial power of a thread.

    I do not understand the need for arguement here.

    Who here is the most profound expert of any language, that they may judge how another can properly write a post?

    Who here is flaw free?

    Sorry to offend, but my focus is not of such petty matters.

    And here I am, replying.

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