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Thread: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    I once watched an interview with a Buddhist monk ...
    The point is individual initiative and voluntariness. The monk himself decided on his task and challenge as well as on his means. The crowds at morning rush hour in the subway donít. Or do they? As individuals they surely could. As a sidenote: at what point, by what kind of magic(k) are a group of individuals transformed into a crowd, into Ďthe massesí?

    The underlying conception of the world and humans in what youíre saying is so different from (for example) mine. Thereís no use in going back and forth. Iíve had / have people of that mindset in my life. Though I guess the difference is for the major part only theoretically. What does count is finally communication and cooperation - and that applies for squirrels and humans alike.
    Last edited by Iloveyou; 12th May 2018 at 10:28. Reason: quote added

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    I once watched an interview with a Buddhist monk ...
    The point is individual initiative and voluntariness. The monk himself decided on his task and challenge as well as on his means. The crowds at morning rush hour in the subway donít. Or do they? As individuals they surely could. As a sidenote: at what point, by what kind of magic(k) are a group of individuals transformed into a crowd, into Ďthe massesí?
    So in other words you think we should all work to give everyone the option of living in complacent comfort? Tell you what, you work on that yourself while I watch in complacent comfort from here. We'll see how hard you are willing to work to allow everyone else to be lazy.


    Quote What does count is finally communication and cooperation - and that applies for squirrels and humans alike.
    Not for red squirrels. They're very territorial and don't work well together at all.

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    So in other words you think we should all work to give everyone the option of living in complacent comfort?
    You seem to be putting words in her/his mouth. What is happening now is wage based complacency, once people have freedom to do what they want instead of slave their time away all day you will see more proactive nature to society.
    Quote Tell you what, you work on that yourself while I watch in complacent comfort from here. We'll see how hard you are willing to work to allow everyone else to be lazy.
    Not everyone is lazy. It is a personality attribute not a monetary demographic.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    So in other words you think we should all work to give everyone the option of living in complacent comfort?
    Not everyone is lazy. It is a personality attribute not a monetary demographic.
    Yes. We should ALL work to give EVERYONE the option of living ... self-determined and free of existential fear. Instead of working our tail off to mainly feed the 1%.

    Iíd see no problem to feed and support a part of the population as long as I have a (real) choice and Iím not forced to. A strong, self reliant community/society should be able to afford that. Were does a major part of the revenues, the added value currently go? Into the pockets of corrupt bureaucrats and international corporate groups who put it in dark projects of any kind and spend it on buying politicians and organisations. This has to stop. They are able to get along because people live in constant existential fear (which they might not always be aware of).

    Neither have I a problem with the rich. If someone thinks he absolutely needs 30 race cars and 17 mansions full of domestic staff - why not? Good luck. But in return he might have to offer quite a bit the people working for him willingly. Sounds romantic and utopian? Leftist? Iíve abandoned leftist ideologies 30 years ago and I see value in many of the points and issues raised by the socalled conservatives (I still use those terms which truly have lost all meaning and are only confusing - for the sake of simplicity).

    Thereís no finalized overall concept yet or garantee. Itíd require a very different approach in countries with a long history of social welfare systems (with all their beneficial and nefarious aspects) than in a society historically based on individualism and competition.

    What other options are there?

    (Off-topic: I found an interesting though generalized, polarized and maybe outdated (??) list of values in the US and other countries here http://www1.cmc.edu/pages/faculty/al...an_values.html)

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Yes. We should ALL work to give EVERYONE the option of living ... self-determined and free of existential fear. Instead of working our tail off to mainly feed the 1%.
    If we unpack this first and we might get to the core of the disagreement. Taking the Socratic method, two questions for you:

    1) If humans were not meant to experience fear, then why are our bodies naturally designed to produce the chemicals necessary for the physical sensation of fear automatically in dangerous situations?

    2) Even if a higher percentage of total earnings goes to the richest 1% today, what would make that fact so personally offensive to you when the standard of living for even the lowest classes of society has improved tremendously since 1800 mostly because of technological developments driven by profit-seeking entrepreneurs in the United States and western European countries?


    About that article you posted, I agree that it is generalized. Not to mention they say it only reflects their "confident" opinions as faculty of Washington International Center. I like seeing harder data than that.

    The differences in culture between states in the US can be pretty substantial and I don't particularly like how the federal government and international corporations are always pushing to homogenize our cultures into one bland flavor. It's like how all news anchors are told to enunciate in a mid-western accent as if from Ohio. I don't have anything against Ohioans but the whole country doesn't sound like that.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    1) If humans were not meant to experience fear, then why are our bodies naturally designed to produce the chemicals necessary for the physical sensation of fear automatically in dangerous situations?
    Once again you took his/her comment out of context. They didn't say fear is not meant to be felt. They obviously meant something more reasonable...just because fear has valid uses doesn't mean fear shouldn't be avoided in circumstances.

    Quote 2) Even if a higher percentage of total earnings goes to the richest 1% today, what would make that fact so personally offensive to you when the standard of living for even the lowest classes of society has improved tremendously since 1800 mostly because of technological developments driven by profit-seeking entrepreneurs in the United States and western European countries?
    Personally I find a difference between entrepreneurs and oligarchs. And it is offensive that the rest of the world is in such poverty while they have everything.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)

    1) If humans were not meant to experience fear, then why are our bodies naturally designed to produce the chemicals necessary for the physical sensation of fear automatically in dangerous situations?

    2) Even if a higher percentage of total earnings goes to the richest 1% today, what would make that fact so personally offensive to you when the standard of living for even the lowest classes of society has improved tremendously since 1800 mostly because of technological developments driven by profit-seeking entrepreneurs in the United States and western European countries?
    1) I should differentiate between fear and angst. Thereís fear that arises because of a real threat and is always felt physically, too. A healthy alarm system. And thereís angst. Chronic, latent and ever present angst for no actual reason. Most probably that kind of angst arises when fear is not allowed to be felt and expressed. The increasing struggle to survive economically is not the only, but a major contributing factor.

    2) Iím not going there. Would lead me way too off-topic

    3) One aspect troubles me: in Europe UBI will be implemented sooner or later, for sure. It is allowed to be discussed widely in the media, there are associations, action groups, small political (left) parties and well known people supporting it. A citizensí initiative (supported by 15 countries) has been registered at the European Commission already in 2013. Their goal is to investigate, discuss and finally implement UBI. The commission shall facilitate the cooperation between the states -whatever that means. So theyíre working on it. Doesnít sound good.

    Since a bunch of billionaires and some of the Silicon Valley tech elite are supporting Universal Basic Income - not really sure what to think about that. Will we end up with a fake socalled UBI - system that looks like the original idea but will have the opposite effect (enslavement) ? Are they already working to reverse the whole concept ?

    Omni, Iíd be interested in what you think about that ?



    PS: Yes, the article is a weak source, result of a very brief search. Is there something like ĎAmerican valuesí (related to pro and con UBI) at all ?
    Last edited by Iloveyou; 14th May 2018 at 19:38.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Since a bunch of billionaires and some of the Silicon Valley tech elite are supporting Universal Basic Income - not really sure what to think about that. Will we end up with a fake socalled UBI - system that looks like the original idea but will have the opposite effect (enslavement) ? Are they already working to reverse the whole concept ?

    Omni, Iíd be interested in what you think about that ?
    That might be because they want to make the robots and capitalize. Without open science and open hardware the Ai corporations benefit from UBI.

    Excerpt from my UBI article:
    * without the open movement universal basic income could further imbalance the gap between higher class and everyone else, with corporations who develop Ai being dominant. UBI with the open movement (such as open science & open hardware) would decentralize the corporate Ai oligarchy and level the playing field for small businesses.

    They also may be trying to do a PR operation with how destructive their industry could be without UBI. There is more to it I'm sure. Sometimes people in high places do have good intent also. Not saying that typifies corporations and Silicon Valley but it is possible that an exec gets behind something positive.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    UBI would assuage their consciences while they rake in massive profits unlike any ever seen before. There would be less social unrest while that happened if everyone could still pay rent and feed their kids with a UBI.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Everyone knows there is no such thing as free money and there never will be, at least for the poor. I don't know whose invention this was, but it's just impossible. There are only those who work almost for free and those who watch that those who work almost for free are doing their job. And then there is middle class which seems to be, well slowly dying. Along with education. Everything here is going like in the good old US of A. Guess that's the idea, slowly selling this country.
    Last edited by muxfolder; 21st May 2018 at 23:45.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    1) I should differentiate between fear and angst. Thereís fear that arises because of a real threat and is always felt physically, too. A healthy alarm system. And thereís angst. Chronic, latent and ever present angst for no actual reason. Most probably that kind of angst arises when fear is not allowed to be felt and expressed. The increasing struggle to survive economically is not the only, but a major contributing factor.
    This is very descriptive but I'm still not sure why you think we should try to eradicate fear from the human experience essentially through government diktat. Fear of being exposed to the elements is what drove mankind to build shelter. Fear of starvation is what made us hunt. Now today, fear of being poor is what leads healthy and productive people to work, but now by mentioning productivity and work I suppose I have gone too far for you.


    Quote 2) Iím not going there. Would lead me way too off-topic
    Either way, it's still a fact that it was capitalism that was ultimately responsible for modern technology and standards of living, compared to the 1700's. That's why the US and Britain led the world in GDP per capita increases since 1800, out of all the nations of the world, because we uniquely gave our citizens the ability to freely be entrepreneurs without some lord or other governing entity demanding heavy taxes. This is the same system that socialists/communists have always wanted to dismantle in order to try to micro-manage economies and markets in line with their utopian dreams... which always turn into North Korean style nightmares, because free markets are like forces of nature and can't be controlled like that.

    Quote 3) One aspect troubles me: in Europe UBI will be implemented sooner or later, for sure. It is allowed to be discussed widely in the media, there are associations, action groups, small political (left) parties and well known people supporting it.
    Of course, it is a very seductive idea to tell people you are going to give them free money and they won't have to work anymore. And the results are predictable. Communism was similarly seductive, and still is somehow for many people, despite killing 100,000,000 people in about the last 100 years.


    Quote Posted by muxfolder (here)
    And then there is middle class which seems to be, well slowly dying. Along with education. Everything here is going like in the good old US of A. Guess that's the idea, slowly selling this country.
    Yep. Oligarchs at the top sell off productive assets and gut the middle class. Authoritarianism cannot co-exist with a prosperous middle class. That's partly how/why the French overthrew the monarchy, because the bourgeoisie developed into a fairly powerful "middle class." So the globalists destroy the middle class with socialism and equalize everyone into the lower class, where they are equally helpless and powerless.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 11th June 2018 at 03:38.

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