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Thread: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

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    United States Avalon Member Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    I don't see our economy changing with out one also... but a lot of us have seen the writing on the wall & it appears we are being set up for a global collapse; which maybe the devastation to the current system that is required for change... however this also seems to be an injected phenomenon so how much do we trust the perpetrators?

    I don't trust much at all....
    I see that as a valid way of perceiving the current milieu TargeT, and am right there with you. Watching, letting it pass but taking note. By this point, I'm sure it is the same with you, the information builds upon previous layers of "knowledge" and it becomes easier to see patterns and potentialities, but harder to predict the details of what is going to happen at any given moment in time. We cannot trust the perpetrators, the ones who control, obviously. But when and if we ask "why" such events are being heralded in the MSM, through movies, television, gaming, magazines, books and online venues, what is the opposite potentiality?

    A Golden Age?

    A true, representative form of governance where ALL of the people are taken care of and are able to access the capacity to manifest their full potentiality?

    Destruction on one side and ... Creation on the other?

    Is this some sort of distraction from what could and would be, were they not dragging down the global energetic balance with their predatory depradations?
    Last edited by Rahkyt; 25th April 2018 at 23:08. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Target, there's starving and then there's starving. I've gone hungry on a few occasions and it felt like starving but I really wasn't because if I was truly in danger I could have swallowed my pride and gone to the food bank.

    Africans are starving. That is why they call it a famine. Millions die. Children are hardest hit because they need those calories and nutrition to grow. They can't catch up later. If they don't get the proper intake they are forever stunted. They say at least 1 in 5 children in America go to school hungry - that's also bad. In New York many renters and mostly university students often have to make a choice - pay the rent or buy food. The food banks see a crisis almost every year in Canada too. Right now I think it is Vancouver experiencing a food shortage in their food banks.
    Starvation was actually a problem all over the world, a major recurring problem in every single major country, until capitalism began to be implemented in earnest in the late 1700s and early 1800s. When we reflect today on how far we have come in providing a very high standard of living in the West, we are reflecting on the results of individual incentive/entrepreneurship in a free market capitalist system.

    Two problems I see with everyone complaining about the economic system and wanting to change it:

    (1) They don't have a functioning alternative, demanding change blindly with no solutions,
    (2) They don't have a proper perspective on the "problems" we have in the first place, often either attributing problems to the wrong causes or inventing problems that don't actually exist except in a corporate media narrative.

    If the solution to "scarcity" is supposed to be opening up the printing presses and printing millions of dollars of "free money" aka "good boy government points," and this is supposed to actually increase real standards of living by printing more paper, then knock yourselves out. Try it in all the European countries first please. Tell Finland and Greece and the other countries who have already dabbled in this nonsense to fire it back up first and be the guiding light to the rest of the world.

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    If the solution to "scarcity" is supposed to be opening up the printing presses and printing millions of dollars of "free money" aka "good boy government points," and this is supposed to actually increase real standards of living by printing more paper, then knock yourselves out. Try it in all the European countries first please. Tell Finland and Greece and the other countries who have already dabbled in this nonsense to fire it back up first and be the guiding light to the rest of the world.
    What is your solution to Ai automating most of the jobs eventually?

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)
    Don't know if any of you are familiar with Mondragon in N.Spain. Operational since the mid-50's it has grown into the world's largest worker's coop. Perfect? -probably not, but the closest concept I've seen. When workers have skin in the game, their attitude is usually quite different, especially when the CEO's salaries are capped at 8% of the lowest paid workers salary. How different attitudes are when one feels as if they are being treated fairly and their ideas are considered.
    There are "successful" co-ops in my region too, but they're basically just off-the-grid communities that only have slightly more electricity than the Amish, and they are about as primitive as the Amish. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's what someone is into. If you tried to run a whole country like that you'd basically just be going 200+ years back into the past and asking other nations to take advantage of you.

    Technological developments such as what we have today require centralized industrial/research hubs that benefit from a wide network of support, from outside agriculture sending in food to universities providing the required technical background. In order to attract the best and brightest you have to pay the best. And if we try to equalize pay in the US, the best and brightest will leave for foreign countries that will pay them more, such as Japan. The "brain drain" is real and it's one reason why the US has been sucking up so many of the smartest people out of all of these poorer and more socialist countries for so long, because we can afford to pay them more based on their talents.

    It isn't fair that some people are a lot smarter than others. Some people are total geniuses and can come up with ideas and technological innovations that the rest of us would never dream of, yet their inventions can make life much more comfortable for all of us. If a developer like this makes 5 or 10 times the amount of money I do, should I feel upset about that? Because I don't.


    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    What is your solution to Ai automating most of the jobs eventually?
    AI can't be allowed to automate too much or it would create a Matrix-like scenario where our entire civilization would potentially be at the whim of AI. If humanity collectively wants to convert itself into fat, lazy cattle then we are free to do so, but the cost is our freedom and potentially our very existence. A certain amount of exertion and labor will always be required on our part if we actually want to maintain control of things ourselves, instead of handing off all responsibility and giving up control.

    Things like the ability to launch nuclear missiles, control global communications, control of food production and distribution, and other basic things like that to our survival as a species, have to be kept out of AI control. If not, we've given up responsibility and put it into the hands of AI out of pure sorriness. If we are that weak of a species then perhaps AI could make a good argument that we deserved to be eradicated anyway.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 2nd May 2018 at 09:25.

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    What is your solution to Ai automating most of the jobs eventually?
    AI can't be allowed to automate too much or it would create a Matrix-like scenario where our entire civilization would potentially be at the whim of AI. If humanity collectively wants to convert itself into fat, lazy cattle then we are free to do so, but the cost is our freedom and potentially our very existence. A certain amount of exertion and labor will always be required on our part if we actually want to maintain control of things ourselves, instead of handing off all responsibility and giving up control.

    Things like the ability to launch nuclear missiles, control global communications, control of food production and distribution, and other basic things like that to our survival as a species, have to be kept out of AI control. If not, we've given up responsibility and put it into the hands of AI out of pure sorriness. If we are that weak of a species then perhaps AI could make a good argument that we deserved to be eradicated anyway.
    You have a lot of flaws in your argument.

    1. Ai will automate most jobs eventually. Universal basic income is the clear solution.
    2. The planet has already been merged with an Ai weapons system. It is already like the matrix. What you speak of is nowhere near what has happened (it is much worse). The Ai does what it is programmed to do. The society you speak of involves oligarchs controlling the Ai, not the Ai going rogue.
    3. You are wary of us being at the whim of Ai if we have a UBI & Ai automated society... Yet right now financially we are at the whim of employers who practically control our fate. Most people have to slave for someone else, and are at the whim of their employer. At the whim of their company implanting them (which is coming more and more), at the whim of their boss controlling their time spent and actions. The current model (which somehow you seem to like) is a soft form of slavery. With Ai properly programmed and serving us we could end the monetary enslavement system.

    Quote
    == Benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI) ==

    * gives free personal time (e.g. promotes the arts & music)
    * promotes optimal education (not forced education)
    * eliminates the ongoing culture of debt, no need to take out a loan to make a living at the beginning of your adult life
    * crime would obviously go down with a generous UBI (poverty is a prime catalyst of crime)
    * eliminates the instability period when Ai really starts taking a lot of jobs - UBI is the clear solution
    * people become activists - promotes activism & volunteering
    * gives people time to be with their family
    * promotes self development & self discovery
    * provides an environment for entrepreneurial endeavors for citizens of any type
    * small business numbers would rise
    * a solution for homelessness
    * a solution for world hunger
    * life quality would raise for those who previously had no income source
    * workers have more economic security, this forces employers to provide quality work conditions to retain employees[x]
    * internet growth & enrichment would likely be a result
    * probable that the collective would research a lot more
    * there would be more political focus
    * there would be more focus on keeping government in line
    * people would have accomplishments of life work instead of nothing to show for their hard work

    If you relate all of that for society as "getting fat" I'm not sure where your logic is but it isn't in reality...

    Last edited by Omni; 2nd May 2018 at 10:42.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Good counters on my points there Mountain, I must say.

    Capitalism certainly has its winners. A rather small minority, to be sure, but 20% of the population did see a rise in its standard of living, in terms of housing, health, and income.

    Famine has increased since the introduction of the industrial revolution, mainly but arguably attributable to the increased use of herbicides and pesticides, and fertilizers. This and the deforestation of massive tracts of land here in North America changed the climate worldwide. Floods and famine are a cycle in many parts of the world.

    As Omni says, universal income is the obvious candidate, although I say so with great caution. It should already be implemented on the basis of the fact that each individual owns a portion of their country and its resources, including the residuals of infrastructure and remedial necessities caused by the industries. We own this wealth by being alive; it is ours to dispense and it is ours to consume.

    Instead we are born into indebtedness by the same virtue - that of being alive. We owe a debt that begins the moment we are born and continues accruing until we are dead.

    The rest is just semantics.
    If not now, then when?

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Discussing Basic Income isolated from all other aspects of modern life leads nowhere. It will never work within the current (and past) dominating structures and mindset of most people. But it has to start here, under difficult conditions, where else? Advocating the idea invites all kind of (reasonable) opposition and criticism.

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    ... only have slightly more electricity than the Amish, and they are about as primitive as the Amish. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's what someone is into. If you tried to run a whole country like that you'd basically just be going 200+ years back into the past and asking other nations to take advantage of you.
    ... or 200+ years into the future. It depends on where you put your focus.

    Here too:
    “It also will not be possible to maintain a modern type of technology. Healthy individuals simply will not spend their entire working lives down in a coal mine, killing themselves by breathing coal dust, knowing they are going to choke to death of it at the age of 40, or stand for 8 hours every working day at an assembly line, doing the same tiny motion over and over again, or any of the many other jobs that need to be done by somebody in a modern industrialized society. Work democracy will only be practical if we abandon industrialization and the type of technology that it makes possible and restore a level of technolgy comparable to that of a few centuries ago, such as the Amish still use.”(Paul Finnegan)

    Is there nothing else beyond these two options: Modern (deadly) technology / slave work or Amish life style? No society based on free energy in the future? No clean technology that follows natural processes? Finally Basic Income will prevail, hand in hand with all other developments towards a more human lifestyle.

    Meanwhile I have a hard time to believe that (out of a certain tiredness and because of the massively increasing pressure exerted on people). Though from an objective, emotionless point of view I know it will prevail. There’s simply no other option (except collective death, which I do not take into account (as a matter of principle).

    Arguing against Basic Income, although from a reasonable position, means maintaining and supporting the status quo. Imo. The Finnish experiment had nothing, nothing to do with the fundamental idea of Basic Income. Even the title is misleading. Such a thing as “free money” doesn’t exist. You all know that. I wouldn’t be surprised if this social welfare program had only been started to prove its failure.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    I wouldn’t be surprised if this social welfare program had only been started to prove its failure.
    I totally agree. They did this study to demonize it. You can bet your bottom dollar the results of this study will be negative towards basic income.

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    I wouldn’t be surprised if this social welfare program had only been started to prove its failure.
    I totally agree. They did this study to demonize it. You can bet your bottom dollar the results of this study will be negative towards basic income.
    Oh I don't know, every welfare program I've seen has caused mostly failure or ended in such.

    We ruined the native americans with "free money"

    We ruined the native alaskans with "free money"

    We ruined the lower income class with "free money"

    The few cases it is actually beneficial are dwarfed by the cases where it was just an enabler to non-productive behavior; ever had one of the recipients tell you of their scheme's to scam just a few more pennies from uncle sam? I had a young 19 year old telling me this stuff and his eyes lit up while he did it.. very sad; but a common mentality in the projects I work in.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Immigrants to Canada are offered a free orientation class. In it, the people are coached in how to apply for government assistance - what to say, what not to say.

    I know many who still refer to welfare as free money - their rightful paycheck for being Canadian now. Ask any of them if they want to work for minimum wage and they just look at you like you're crazy, "What? And loose my government money?"
    If not now, then when?

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    We ruined the native americans with "free money"

    We ruined the native alaskans with "free money"

    We ruined the lower income class with "free money"
    I don't think free money is the cause of what ruined those things. It is a far more complicated picture than you paint. I'm not sure where you got this: we caused the ruination of Native Americans with 'free money'. The first two seem like compensation for the ruining. The third I can detect more of an argument for, still isn't the root cause of the ruination IMO.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Re: "What you are really seeking to avoid is working, and presumably, the suffering that comes from work. All world religions are about alleviating suffering, and most agree: you can never completely do it."

    I find this to be a false assumption, Voice, one based on your own personal views of human motivation, which I find kind of dark. In this view, all humans are lazy. That is simply not the case. I believe that humanity's greatest achievements are the result not of someone earning a wage to keep food on the table, but instead are the result of someone (or some group) having a dream of a better world, and then 'working' to see it come to be realized.

    Much of the western world depends on the 'work' of volunteers to function. From whence is this drive forthcoming?

    There are many reasons to want to avoid "work", per se. I am personally averse to work that is demeaning, trivial or dehumanizing. "Robot work" as I used to call it when I was employed in factories. And robots are welcome to it. I don't mind at all, however, an occupation in which I can accomplish goals that aid the planet or its life forms, or fulfill an artistic drive while producing a useful item or product. There are lots of examples.

    On the other hand, there is the sage advice that one should find an activity that fulfills one's dreams - and never face the prospect of having to "work" another day.

    So, to conclude, not all humans are lazy. If we were, nothing of value would be accomplished.

    Brian
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    I don't understand the mentality, either. No pride in a job well done? No camaraderie with fellow workers, getting a beer after work to wash down the dirt and grime? This is how wealth is created. Does that not mean anything anymore? There is nothing without effort and honed skills and increasing knowledge and experience. You can have all the schooling in the world but a world full of scholars still sleep in caves! There is nothing without physical labour.

    Funny how backward this world is. And all values follow on that faulty premise. That is why this world is a mess: We have valued wrongly.

    Note: sure is hard writing on a phone. No spell check for one. Not a very good speller. Power is out here in Toronto - high winds...
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 4th May 2018 at 22:52.
    If not now, then when?

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    All that is part of a good life, physical labor is way underrated and too little appreciated. Anyway, I see this is already changing. The essential thing with Basic Income and work is voluntariness. People are ready to take a lot, when they can do things freely, from their own choice. Especially when it comes with appreciation and the award of being part of a team ...

    What will cease with Basic Income, is the compulsion, the military-like organisation of work, where the first thing required is obedience and subordination ... starting as a 15, 18 year old ... for fourty years, without a break ... under the permanent threat of misery if they do not comply. The major part of people in the Western world have to live like that. You are lucky if you don’t.

    People are essentially good. Well, they might be a bit stupid, defiant for a while ...

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Ask any of them if they want to work for minimum wage and they just look at you like you're crazy, "What? And loose my government money?"
    Perhaps the problem is the minimum wage ...
    Last edited by Iloveyou; 5th May 2018 at 02:36.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I don't understand the mentality, either. No pride in a job well done? No camaraderie with fellow workers, getting a beer after work to wash down the dirt and grime? This is how wealth is created. Does that not mean anything anymore? There is nothing without effort and honed skills and increasing knowledge and experience. You can have all the schooling in the world but a world full of scholars still sleep in caves! There is nothing without physical labour.

    Funny how backward this world is. And all values follow on that faulty premise. That is why this world is a mess: We have valued wrongly.

    Note: sure is hard writing on a phone. No spell check for one. Not a very good speller. Power is out here in Toronto - high winds...
    Wellll ... there's nothing in this program to prevent someone from working and feeling good about themselves. It's a bare minimum income. People would just not be stuck in doing robot/slave work to eat.

    It's not like a general "Down tools!" movement. Having a choice in what you do would benefit individuals and the economy and society in general. If one wanted to do some worthwhile physical labour, they could. And then head out for a beer!

    B.
    A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

    Albert E.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    The main problem with a basic guaranteed income is it could create a crisis of meaning and purpose in the lives of those who receive it. However, many people nowadays would do well to have their basic needs attended to. It is a mistake to conclude that all that motivates people to 'work' is money.

    Look at all the labor involved in hobbies. Look at all the man hours people spend posting on this forum. Nobody gets paid for that!

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    The main problem with a basic guaranteed income is it could create a crisis of meaning and purpose in the lives of those who receive it. However, many people nowadays would do well to have their basic needs attended to. It is a mistake to conclude that all that motivates people to 'work' is money.

    Look at all the labor involved in hobbies. Look at all the man hours people spend posting on this forum. Nobody gets paid for that!
    I know from first hand experience that when you have freedom to do what you want it can be one of the best things that ever happens to someone. If the worst thing about a UBI is a freedom crisis I think the argument is easily in favor of UBI. I have general freedom like UBI provides and it has turned into a portfolio of music, film, books - PDFs, websites, photography, graphic design, hired illustration, social media activism, forming organizations (such as Counter Darkness & Open Movement International), more time to do what I want, better psychological states, I generally sleep when I want (this is great for insomnia), I started small businesses (e.g. Universal Aspects™ and Aspect Black™).

    Basically UBI could start a new internet renaissance if other people wanted to do what I have with my time. All those talented people wasting their talents away doing something they don't want to do for some oligarch would have time to develop their talents and knowledge. I see UBI as a utopia model...
    Last edited by Omni; 5th May 2018 at 23:04. Reason: clarification

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    My concern is to address why is there a need for UBI? If there are ten of us in the world would we all be equally well off? Would we get to do what we want? I don't think the answers are that straight forward, are they?

    With seven billion of us the problem becomes untenable. No one can put a finger on the causes of inequality with any certainty. There are things people want and those things can only be supplied by millions working in that and related industry. People want stuff, so other people have to go get the raw materials to make that stuff. More people have to fabricate and assemble the stuff. Others have to stand around to explain to you which stuff is best and which will suit you most. Still others have to make sure the peace is kept and proper protocols are followed. Others have to invent those protocols.

    No matter what millionaire, there are thousands of people that made the stuff that made that millionaire rich. For every banker's bonus, there is somewhere a deficit that will have to be assumed by others, unless of course money is printed out of thin air (say it isn't so!) but even then many pay for the deflated value of their money. Every mansion was built by hundreds of workers and thousands of support personnel in dozens of related industries. There is no man who came from nothing to make it big that does not really owe their wealth to hundreds of others who actually did the work.

    In a different world all that labor could have gone into building homes for ourselves, saving wealth in assets instead of fiat vouchers, creating our own stuff - we already build them anyway. We could have lifted our brother and sister up when they needed a hand, invaded with shovels instead of guns, given assistance instead of taking control.

    If that had been done, we wouldn't need UBI because we'd all be rich!
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 7th May 2018 at 22:00.
    If not now, then when?

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    England Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    In the future automation will have taken most of the jobs, universal income will then be implemented .

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    A project I finished a draft of today on UBI:

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