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Thread: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Omni, that is a great table.

    It should not be hidden away in this obscure location. It really deserves a thread of its own.

    Discussing the benefits of a UBI is fun and enlightening. It may be a better angle to discuss this topic from, offering opportunities to envision the various positive outcomes. Here, it seems the negative is being highlighted.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    A project I finished a draft of today on UBI:
    bumped
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    1. Ai will automate most jobs eventually. Universal basic income is the clear solution.
    The industrial revolution in the 1800's took away millions of jobs too, and people just found new jobs.

    The idea is that people are doing useful things that they can then somehow exchange with each other. I get the feeling that most people can only conceptualize work and having productive responsibilities as something bad, to be avoided at all costs, and even comparable with slavery. The truth is that being directly responsible for productive capabilities actually gives the human race its power. If we were to decide to surrender all of our responsibilities to sentient robots that are making their own decisions, then we would have put the leash around our own necks and given control over our existence to something over which we may ultimately have no control. I really think that would be insane behavior.

    Quote 2. The planet has already been merged with an Ai weapons system. It is already like the matrix. What you speak of is nowhere near what has happened (it is much worse). The Ai does what it is programmed to do. The society you speak of involves oligarchs controlling the Ai, not the Ai going rogue.
    I actually don't believe that. The largest army in the world is arguably the 70 million Americans that own private firearms, and there isn't any AI system controlling all 70 million of these people. Even without having to actually use these weapons, just the possibility of the American people rising up in revolt has a major chilling effect on any would-be coup plotters, for example, or even foreign invaders, who would stand no chance of occupying us. Then there are other examples of militias and mercenary armies throughout the world that resist control by any external influence, especially in the Middle East and Africa.

    Quote 3. You are wary of us being at the whim of Ai if we have a UBI & Ai automated society... Yet right now financially we are at the whim of employers who practically control our fate.
    You can say your fate is in the hands of anyone you choose, but I think it's only useful to focus on the ways in which I am responsible for my own fate. I'm not so pessimistic that I have stopped believing in free will yet.

    Quote Most people have to slave for someone else
    What people get paid for today is nothing compared to what our medieval ancestors had to do just to survive, and I doubt they thought of those necessary actions as a form of slavery. I think we have lost all perspective on true hardship today and as a society are very spoiled, to the point of younger generations becoming incapable of meeting serious responsibilities to keep civilization moving forward.

    Quote
    == Benefits of Universal Basic Income (UBI) ==

    * gives free personal time (e.g. promotes the arts & music)
    * promotes optimal education (not forced education)
    * eliminates the ongoing culture of debt, no need to take out a loan to make a living at the beginning of your adult life
    * crime would obviously go down with a generous UBI (poverty is a prime catalyst of crime)
    * eliminates the instability period when Ai really starts taking a lot of jobs - UBI is the clear solution
    * people become activists - promotes activism & volunteering
    * gives people time to be with their family
    * promotes self development & self discovery
    * provides an environment for entrepreneurial endeavors for citizens of any type
    * small business numbers would rise
    * a solution for homelessness
    * a solution for world hunger
    * life quality would raise for those who previously had no income source
    * workers have more economic security, this forces employers to provide quality work conditions to retain employees[x]
    * internet growth & enrichment would likely be a result
    * probable that the collective would research a lot more
    * there would be more political focus
    * there would be more focus on keeping government in line
    * people would have accomplishments of life work instead of nothing to show for their hard work
    I can make an even bigger list of the advantages of a communist utopia, but the economics of it still won't work.

    Your solution is just to make robots that can eventually do every single human job imaginable, so we can revert to a state of permanent childhood. The Matrix is literally the final culmination of this way of thinking. Just imagine, you don't even have to sleep: waking and sleeping will be simulated in your mind while you just vegetate comfortably in a warm goo bath 24 hours a day. Human beings won't even have to physically move their bodies anymore and the robot AI hive mind will automatically dispense food into our vegetating bodies. Why not? Not having to exert our physical bodies at work is just the first step.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Good counters on my points there Mountain, I must say.

    Capitalism certainly has its winners. A rather small minority, to be sure, but 20% of the population did see a rise in its standard of living, in terms of housing, health, and income.
    Almost every single person in the US and Canada has benefitted from the results of capitalism since it has been first implemented. Even considering the absolute poorest people in the US or Canada, you would have a very difficult time finding anyone still living as the poorest class of people lived in 1800. Before the industrial revolution and other advancements due to capitalist entrepreneurship, the poorest class didn't have indoor plumbing, insulation in their homes, often they had no shoes, ate a very monotonous diet and barely had enough to eat at all. Countless comforts we take for granted, which are immeasurable in terms of money, have been made possible through mass production and expansion of industry.


    Quote Famine has increased since the introduction of the industrial revolution, mainly but arguably attributable to the increased use of herbicides and pesticides, and fertilizers.
    How are famines being counted, if we were to say they have increased since the industrial revolution? Is there a particular study or body of literature about this that you can direct me to?

    Perhaps they are measuring famines by the numbers of people considered to be affected, in which case the ballooning population of the Earth would explain that, and that population growth in itself is also a major sign of the increase in global wealth and food security. World population is not exploding because more people are starving, for sure.

    Quote Instead we are born into indebtedness by the same virtue - that of being alive. We owe a debt that begins the moment we are born and continues accruing until we are dead.
    This seems to me more like a state of mind or a way of looking things than hard facts about reality. I could make the same argument about squirrels: from the moment they are born, they are hostages, first to their mothers and then to their eternal need to gather nuts and other food. The poor squirrel slaves away his life gathering nuts endlessly and sadly will not stop until he dies. That's a real sad story huh?

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Capitalism doesn't go away with UBI. It just becomes more aptly termed "soft capitalism." Room for making a lot of money and succeeding while also having room for making life less harsh.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Maybe all forms of labor are too harsh and we deserve to be fed and given everything we want for free, full stop. Are there any possible reasons why that might conceivably be a bad idea?




    That kind of living looks extremely soft. You never have to worry about anything, and the only things you ever do worry about are just fictional simulations anyway. Free food and warm goo, all day every day. No responsibilities.


    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Is there nothing else beyond these two options: Modern (deadly) technology / slave work or Amish life style? No society based on free energy in the future? No clean technology that follows natural processes? Finally Basic Income will prevail, hand in hand with all other developments towards a more human lifestyle.
    I want those new technologies too, and they will continue to improve our quality of life just as things have marked improved since around 1800. But the economic reality of printing a bunch of "free money" is that it devalues currency and leads to inflation.

    You can print off and give away more money, but the actual amount of valuable goods and services you pay for doesn't change at all. So you just end up paying more for the same amount of goods that are already there, because the money itself is worth less because there's an excess amount of it.

    And then the kicker: the money is devalued for everyone, even those who are working for it, not only for those who are only getting it for free. That means it hurts the income of even the most productive members of society and discourages them from working for profit at all. This is what happens in every single society that subsidizes inactivity by paying people to do nothing. It is a very natural and obvious result, given human nature.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Ah, by and by I start to understand where you (and most UBI critics) are coming from. I had always assumed that UBI would just be a temporary solution, as long as the current money system is up and running. I’ve never considered it as a solution per se, in its own right. In the long run we must abandon the fake money system, of course.

    The thought, that certain groups of people profit from UBI and others not, is opposed to the basic idea. That’s why experiments like in Finland cannot but fail. So how to achieve it in even only one country (esp. countries like mine, which are part of a massive power-bloc like EU) - a challenge I yet know no practical way to go, just that’s no reason to abandon a possibly promising idea.

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    That kind of living looks extremely soft. You never have to worry about anything, and the only things you ever do worry about are just fictional simulations anyway. Free food and warm goo, all day every day. No responsibilities.
    Isn’t that a bit like comparing a child forced into the strict, punitive Prussian education system (current work system) to a spoiled child brought up in a (misunderstood) “antiauthoritarian” way with no incentive, no rules and consequences (your interpretation of UBI-results) ? Neither is desirable. Finally that leads to the question: are people basically, naturally good and constructive ... or stupid, lazy and parasitic beings?


    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    This seems to me more like a state of mind or a way of looking things than hard facts about reality. I could make the same argument about squirrels: from the moment they are born, they are hostages, first to their mothers and then to their eternal need to gather nuts and other food. The poor squirrel slaves away his life gathering nuts endlessly and sadly will not stop until he dies. That's a real sad story huh?
    You’re not seriously equating the existence of a squirrel to the existence of a human, aren’t you ? Anyway, in that case it’d be the squirrel’s business to change their raison d'être, not ours ... I’m only joking, please don’t take offense ...
    Last edited by Iloveyou; 9th May 2018 at 08:16.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    As a whole, this topic drives more and more to the grand riddle of “Life’s Purpose”. What is the practical purpose of life? Must a persuasive rationale define humanity’s purpose? Is some -ology, -ism or -anity or -ality the key to improve governance and commerce? Have humans progressed through history? Is fast-food really better than open-fire cooking of the day’s catch? Is the city life really better than a ruralist life? Who has experientially-verified all possible life styles, to prove any of this?

    In this context…. The free money test-program, was just another ploy to maintain classism.

    With my long life of responsible freedoms and searching life purposes… I’m increasingly struck that we are stuck in a cyclic reincarnation farm, which we call life. Stuck by our own volition, or otherwise, our loss of driving purposes.
    Last edited by wavydome; 9th May 2018 at 11:36.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by wavydome (here)
    What is the practical purpose of life?
    To learn and experience.

    Neither of which is encouraged by "easy" anything (easy money, easy food, easy life..)

    Humans are AT THEIR BEST when they struggle (necessity is the mother of all invention, no pain no gain etc..), and at their worst when they are provided for; we have numerous historical examples.


    The joy of a fractal reality is that the answer to this question is both extremely simple, and extremely complex.

    Which one you accept, I suppose is up to you.

    Does that mean we have the best implementation? no, I think it's pretty corrupted, but it's modeled after what works best; of course it is... that fits the pattern as well, take something good and corrupted it (that's the common M.O.; right?)

    besides, automation is really a threat to low skill labor.. that's it.. and we WANT those jobs automated for all the reasons listed on this thread...





    I could be wrong, machine learning is interesting... but I don't see it as a job killer (these guys are, admittedly, a bit biased)


    Last edited by TargeT; 9th May 2018 at 13:38.
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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    There are only two ways to run a society. Either there is some open market system where everyone is encouraged and assisted to create their own method of survival, or there is a form of subservience to the system. That's it.

    Voice your points are good but you seem to think that we don't know what the rhetoric is in defense of capitalism. We know all the arguments very well. Like everyone else we had it drummed into our minds. For a while I even believed it - until I opened my eyes and saw the true effects of capitalism. Especially the euphemism that is the word capitalism. To capitalize is to exploit. They call it value-added in some circles. I know that because before PC made such topics taboo, here in Canada we often talked about creating value-added goods instead of just processing the raw materials and shipping it to the states. Americans did not like such talk and so we had a great deal of turmoil as our social systems took a beating. Unions were busted, direct pay became the new norm, various niceties were removed, the government at all levels became harsher. That is how capitalism works - it is the dark side of the coin, the side never mentioned and regularly demeaned and belittled as unimportant and inconsequential.

    Capitalism kicks in the door and makes itself at home and soon is running the show. The "success" of capitalism is the touted explanation. Yet that success comes at a steep price. The first order of the day for capitalism is to decimate the social programs and replace it with private interests. The next move is to destroy the competition or collude with them. The next is to jack up prices. The last is to find larger markets, cheaper labor, and influence government in their favor. This leads to higher prices, lower wages, less impact on policy for the individual, and often poorer quality goods.

    I am not arguing on my behalf - as you say, capitalism worked for me. I went to school, I learned my three R's. My parents instilled a healthy work ethic in me and my skills allowed me to excel. It is the bottom one third of the world's population I am concerned with. And many of those live amongst us. We step over them on the way to work and flip them a few coins on the way home. Those are just the visible ones. Many more are never seen and certainly never heard. But you're right, few of them can compare to the truly poor and destitute.

    Finally, the lazy thing. Why do you think this is about being able to sit around and "vegetate"? My days off I work far harder and often longer than I do for any employer. But then the work is mine and for me: it is much more satisfying. If I had more time to myself I would work even more than I do now. Still, I understand the value of down time and I partake with equal vigor. Very little laziness around here...
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    I have also observed that humans are at their best in times of disaster. That doesn't mean we should implement a system that institutes disaster as the standard of social order.

    I cannot understand this statement. I want to be dramatic about it and say you mean like struggling to walk ten miles just to get a pitcher of clean water, or struggling to get down the street in a hail of gunfire and whistling bombs to buy a loaf of bread? Like that kind of struggle? Or working at Apple's factory and jumping off the roof because you can't face your family with the pittance of a wage packet that doesn't cover the bills? Or mom and pop convenience stores struggling to stay afloat when Wal-Mart comes to their neck of the woods? That kind of struggle?

    But I won't do it, I respect you too much.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I have also observed that humans are at their best in times of disaster. That doesn't mean we should implement a system that institutes disaster as the standard of social order.

    I cannot understand this statement. I want to be dramatic about it and say you mean like struggling to walk ten miles just to get a pitcher of clean water, or struggling to get down the street in a hail of gunfire and whistling bombs to buy a loaf of bread? Like that kind of struggle? Or working at Apple's factory and jumping off the roof because you can't face your family with the pittance of a wage packet that doesn't cover the bills? Or mom and pop convenience stores struggling to stay afloat when Wal-Mart comes to their neck of the woods? That kind of struggle?
    I'd take the hormetic approach, lower level doses of those extreme's; enough to kick in response mechanisms (motivation, inspiration etc..).

    Struggle is highly perspective based; your listed struggles are dreams of the slums in india (even the apple factory guys, which is ironic, since the slums of india are about as "happy" as the us middle class according to studies).
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Is that what you were doing years back with the hunk of irradiated ore? Aiming for an hormetic response?
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Is that what you were doing years back with the hunk of irradiated ore? Aiming for an hormetic response?
    haven't been sick in around 4 years... used to get sick at least once bad every year (flu type thing, or cold).... color me a believer
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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    there is a deep story to this, I found it right here


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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by wavydome (here)
    What is the practical purpose of life?
    To learn and experience.
    Yeah... So it is widely proclaimed. So i too, was convicted for decades, but now, with an open minded attitude of exploration… I’m looking at the hoax of it, which really fools beings of light, to shut off their brighter light. To instead live in a fixated, blacked-out, spacey sky, half a human life, prone to so many demented influences… Likely most all influences aimed to return us, life after life, with memory wipes, as perpetual suckers… RE: Why not consciously learn, just how to get back out of this reincarnation farm, (i’m exploring some rare threads on this. It is my wildest adventure, so far).

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    …besides, automation is really a threat to low skill labor.. that's it.. and we WANT those jobs automated for all the reasons listed on this thread...
    I like tech, but have to doubt it is currently used harmoniously. Rather it inadvertently or perhaps also maliciously, destroys nature as we might like her best, thriving and luscious. I would aim the tech more at the ecto-skeletal versions of building, more-so, rather than the idea of a big black box which hides the inner workings, to produce stuff. I think most of the lower skilled people, whom i worked with, over my decades of labor, actually could perform far better and work at extremely high levels, with robotic knowledge bases, indicating work moves.

    The other more difficult subject is how many randomly born humans, can the earth actually sustain harmoniously. Multiple aggressive traditions are throwing us into a self perpetuated ecocide, IMO, or a trans humanist nightmare, or into more extreme brain washing.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    I would like to highlight a problem which appears to exist in the education system which is glaring only after you have passed through it and missed your opportunity to do the kind of creative, fulfilling, mentally stimulating, potentially productive work of a lifetime. I have only recently read that in high schools, Guidance Councilors are encouraged to stand down with their guidance. How on earth can children, who know little or nothing about the world outside get the guidance into professions needed by the world when students do not even know of their existence; and therefore, how to go about studying for them. Those left floundering are then guided into TRADE schools offering horrible low income jobs in fields which also become overcrowded keeping many unemployed or underemployed. Creation of money by bankers creates inflation at such a rate that menial wages can never catch up to increasing costs. The inequities of society are deliberately created to oppress. Even the medical system after retirement is a joke. Imagine having to pay $10,000 per night in the hospital. All of this is deliberate GENOCIDE.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by amor (here)
    I would like to highlight a problem which appears to exist in the education system which is glaring only after you have passed through it and missed your opportunity to do the kind of creative, fulfilling, mentally stimulating, potentially productive work of a lifetime. I have only recently read that in high schools, Guidance Councilors are encouraged to stand down with their guidance. How on earth can children, who know little or nothing about the world outside get the guidance into professions needed by the world when students do not even know of their existence; and therefore, how to go about studying for them. Those left floundering are then guided into TRADE schools offering horrible low income jobs in fields which also become overcrowded keeping many unemployed or underemployed. Creation of money by bankers creates inflation at such a rate that menial wages can never catch up to increasing costs. The inequities of society are deliberately created to oppress. Even the medical system after retirement is a joke. Imagine having to pay $10,000 per night in the hospital. All of this is deliberate GENOCIDE.
    I don't know what your source is, but personal experience where I live (Ontario) paints a completely opposite picture. About twenty years ago, Student Services counsellors finally began advising their "clients" to consider a skilled trade rather than aiming for a university diploma. Industry had been complaining for decades that there were not enough skilled tradespeople, and that consequently, thousands of good paying jobs were vacant. At the same time, there was a glut of university graduates who could not find work in their field of interest. Ontario's technical schools have come a long way since and, while the crisis is far from solved, it's whole lot better for all concerned. It's now fairly common for kids with university degrees to continue their educations at community colleges so that they will have careers.

    And yeah, having to pay $10 000 a night for hospital care would be ruinous - a recipe for genocide for sure. That's why every developed nation on earth, with the exception of America, provides universal health care. So why, one wonders, have TPTB in America decided to to wipe out such a large portion of its citizenry?

    B.
    A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

    Albert E.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Ah, by and by I start to understand where you (and most UBI critics) are coming from. I had always assumed that UBI would just be a temporary solution, as long as the current money system is up and running. I’ve never considered it as a solution per se, in its own right. In the long run we must abandon the fake money system, of course.
    Tell me what you want to replace money with, because money is just a symbol representing an exchange of value. We used to barter directly with tobacco, cotton, gold, silver, etc. I assume you understand this history. So what is inherently wrong with symbolically representing value?

    Someone earlier already conflated debt banking with money in general. It's almost as if people think the Federal Reserve note and its foreign debt-based counterparts are the only forms of money that have ever existed. The dollar used to be tied directly to gold/silver and was directly exchangeable for those metals, no debt involved at all. And like I said, before that, it was direct trading of goods and services without symbolic representation.

    Quote The thought, that certain groups of people profit from UBI and others not, is opposed to the basic idea. That’s why experiments like in Finland cannot but fail. So how to achieve it in even only one country (esp. countries like mine, which are part of a massive power-bloc like EU) - a challenge I yet know no practical way to go, just that’s no reason to abandon a possibly promising idea.
    You'd think that communism already showed the cataclysmic danger of using entire nations as guinea pigs in economic experiments to achieve some kind of utopia. "Well it didn't work with a small trial population, so let's expand it to the whole continent, then it'll work." It really reminds me of the people who say, in the face of every example of communism that inevitably results in mass killings, "Well, that wasn't REAL communism.... Let's try it one more time."

    Quote
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    That kind of living looks extremely soft. You never have to worry about anything, and the only things you ever do worry about are just fictional simulations anyway. Free food and warm goo, all day every day. No responsibilities.
    Isn’t that a bit like comparing a child forced into the strict, punitive Prussian education system (current work system) to a spoiled child brought up in a (misunderstood) “antiauthoritarian” way with no incentive, no rules and consequences (your interpretation of UBI-results) ? Neither is desirable. Finally that leads to the question: are people basically, naturally good and constructive ... or stupid, lazy and parasitic beings?
    I don't understand what you think is punitive about the idea of working for livelihood, something that every species of mammal has to do in nature. We have unprecedented comforts today and yet despite this (or more likely because of this) people are complaining more than ever about not liking to work, that work is slavery, that it's unbearable, etc. etc. Why is work such a problem now, and generates so much complaining, compared to the 1600's? Being a hard worker used to even be considered a positive trait about someone, but I guess that's changed too and now we're supposed to pity hard workers, because they've joined the ever-expanding victim class?

    I don't think we would agree on where the "middle ground" should be, because of how great and unprecedented our comforts are today compared to the rest of human history. Many middle class Americans today have much better living conditions than kings and queens did during the middle ages, and probably actually work less too, especially when European kings still led military campaigns personally. Just the marches and poor supplies on these campaigns would be unbearable for many people today.

    Quote
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    This seems to me more like a state of mind or a way of looking things than hard facts about reality. I could make the same argument about squirrels: from the moment they are born, they are hostages, first to their mothers and then to their eternal need to gather nuts and other food. The poor squirrel slaves away his life gathering nuts endlessly and sadly will not stop until he dies. That's a real sad story huh?
    You’re not seriously equating the existence of a squirrel to the existence of a human, aren’t you ?
    You mean two mammals that both have to work in order to survive? Yes, I actually am comparing the natural state of mammals, and humans are mammals.

    Why couldn't I make the argument that squirrels are slaves to endlessly hunting for food? Or any other mammal? You think it's funny but I don't. It's absolutely no different. Saying that humans are slaves to working is nothing but ideological spin that I could apply equally to squirrels or rabbits or deer or any other mammal. All mammals are oppressed by nature for having to struggle for survival, right? And this is some great injustice? It sounds absurd because it IS absurd, and equally so when applied to humans.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Humans are AT THEIR BEST when they struggle (necessity is the mother of all invention, no pain no gain etc..), and at their worst when they are provided for; we have numerous historical examples.
    Exactly.




    I once watched an interview with a Buddhist monk who had meditated alone in a mountain cave, living only off a bowl of rice a day, for so long that he didn't even remember how old he was. But all of the other nearby monks said he was by far the oldest monk in the community and had to be over 100 years old.

    When asked his secret to longevity in such rugged conditions, he responded that we must always seek challenges and hardships to grow spiritually. This old monk intentionally sought out a challenging lifestyle that required constant struggle, in order to grow spiritually. Staying in the "comfort zone" only leads to stagnation, complacency, neglect, and weakness.



    Quote besides, automation is really a threat to low skill labor.. that's it.. and we WANT those jobs automated for all the reasons listed on this thread...
    Exactly the same as past industrial revolutions, of which there have been at least three. Low-skill and tedious labor such as knitting socks and casting bullets was taken over by industrialization. Lots of people lost work, and then just found it doing something else instead, with an newly-increased standard of living.

    Instead of doing the tedious tasks, which are taken over by automation, you just have to find something bigger and better to put your mind to, to create some good or service that other people are interested in. This is what entrepreneurs are for, when they come up with new ideas and start hiring people to help them make those ideas a reality. But just sitting around idly and getting pampered by machines is a Matrix scenario, a pampered slave with no real power or leverage in the world.

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    Default Re: Finland abandons "free money" experiment

    The ideas by opposition to UBI are pretty ridiculous. Nicely packaged trash IMO. I'd debate but I feel it unproductive. In 10,000 years all the current opponents to UBI can give me their feedback...

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