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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Ernie Nemeth suggested I start my own thread on this, as the only other thread on it seems to focus on the negative. Personally I am very pro-UBI. I have a new organization named Open Movement International that I am advocating for things like open government, open science, open data, open education, net neutrality, and universal basic income.

    Some of my work in relation to UBI:

    Reasons in Favor of Universal Basic Income
    https://openmovement.wiki/index.php/...l_Basic_Income


    Quote Posted by https://openmovement.wiki/
    Artificial Intelligence Automation of Jobs

    * end game Ai has the capability to do almost any job
    * a release of black project technology in the field of artificial intelligence could eliminate the instability period when Ai really starts to take over the job market
    * Universal Basic Income is the clear solution to an Ai automated job market

    Prevention of Government Exploitation of Basic Income

    * Government ability to exploit citizens and/or censor information with threat of UBI loss needs to be addressed or it will happen
    * Human rights and free speech are optimal circumstances of universal basic income; government should not be able to dictate what an individual does with their money (within the law)

    Open Movement in Conjunction with Universal Basic Income

    * the open movement works hand in hand with universal basic income as keys for optimal society
    * without the open movement universal basic income could further imbalance the gap between higher class and everyone else, with corporations who develop Ai being dominant. UBI with the open movement (such as open science & open hardware) would decentralize the corporate Ai oligarchy.

    If you know anything about UBI not mentioned or have an opinion feel free to speak up. One thing I am currently looking for ideas on is how to prevent government exploitation of universal basic income. Or at least to outline ways UBI can be exploited by a despotic government so that people can be more educated about the issues and in effect perhaps influence policy.
    Last edited by Omni; 15th May 2018 at 20:03. Reason: 1. added new segment || 2. clarification/accuracy

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Glad you took my advice. I think the idea of a universal basic income is laudable and necessary.

    Although so many good points are covered in the op, I would suggest that there are certain aspects difficult to predict in the midst of the present paradigm. If a true UBI were implemented, including all regions and nations, societal motivations would be shook to their core. In such a society it is easy to see the individual would have more real choice in every area of life. What is not as easily seen is the impact that would have on the collective. What would such a society create? What choices would such a society endeavor to implement? Would it even determine to make of itself a true civilization? Hard to imagine a more enviable goal for a society that recognized the need for a UBI in the first place. Who knows for sure...
    Why Not?

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Although so many good points are covered in the op, I would suggest that there are certain aspects difficult to predict in the midst of the present paradigm.
    I agree. With something as big as UBI there are bound to be some cons. And you can bet your bottom dollar the shadow government has already thought of ways to exploit universal basic income.

    Quote If a true UBI were implemented, including all regions and nations, societal motivations would be shook to their core. In such a society it is easy to see the individual would have more real choice in every area of life. What is not as easily seen is the impact that would have on the collective. What would such a society create?
    I think universal basic income goes hand in hand with the open movement. Open science is really great for UBI to decentralize corporate power, or else whoever makes the robots would be the new royalty. We don't want to create an oligarch haven with impossible odds for monetary classes to change.

    Open government is a model I think that fits with UBI, a utopia model.

    I think as absurd as it sounds people may have a freedom crisis with UBI (much like an inmate getting released from prison). But once people establish goals, life work, find their talents, find passions, find their niche, etc I think people will be a lot happier than you see now.

    Quote What choices would such a society endeavor to implement?
    Well you have the shadow government syndicate (and their assets) as a major problem. As long as groups like the Vatican, British royals, CIA, and regressive elements of military are in power any system that gets implemented will be exploited.

    However with UBI I think a lot of really great events will be triggered. For example with UBI a worker doesn't have to work, this way employers are forced to give better work conditions or the worker quits. This would have a chain effect to create much better working conditions anywhere UBI is implemented right. This could revolutionize the work quality of the planet. I sense there are all sorts of chain effects like this with UBI.

    Quote Would it even determine to make of itself a true civilization?
    I feel this civilization is headed in the right direction once it rids itself of the shadow government syndicate and has access to the galactic community, and therefore can see optimal societies by example.
    Last edited by Omni; 9th May 2018 at 00:29. Reason: error fix

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons


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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Without a drastic change to the worlds monetary system all a ubi does is add to the debt that can never be repaid and makes inflation go much higher.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    Without a drastic change to the worlds monetary system all a ubi does is add to the debt that can never be repaid and makes inflation go much higher.
    Ai automation is that drastic change, in addition to open science so the robot makers do not own the world.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    I'm not sure that ai automation changes fractional reserve banking or changes the way the banking cartels control humanity. maybe it does......just not sure.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    I'm not sure that ai automation changes fractional reserve banking or changes the way the banking cartels control humanity. maybe it does......just not sure.
    So because one thing is not what we want we shouldn't implement good systems? I'm not sure I see the logic. The monetary system of control is largely centered around what UBI eliminates, wage slavery.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Ubi isn't a good system. All it does in the macro sense is raise the price of goods and services and cause high inflation. in the micro sense it makes people reliant

    on a government hand out and redistributes labor and time from one citizen to another. Under your ubi system the government should just print more monopoly money


    or add more digits to the cpu screen and give 100k to each person. that doesn't work.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    ubi is just a fancy way of taking from the haves and giving to the have nots.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    through government theft.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    Ubi isn't a good system. All it does in the macro sense is raise the price of goods and services and cause high inflation. in the micro sense it makes people reliant
    No, your imagined system of UBI isn't a good system. With a system as large as UBI for the entire planet it has to change other things. You are just mentioning the things that would need to be accounted for in a UBI system, basically inventing your own argument against it without even understanding my real model.

    Yes it is a potent demonization point that UBI "makes people reliant", however right now there is a worse system (the current system). One where if you do not fatten another persons pockets you are on the streets/homeless, dead, starving, can't raise your own family, etc.

    In my system UBI cannot be taken away from a citizen, thus why it is called Universal Basic Income. So this "reliance" is not threatened with a power string by the government.

    Quote on a government hand out and redistributes labor and time from one citizen to another. Under your ubi system the government should just print more monopoly money
    You do not understand my UBI system. I have not really gone into the system yet... You are demonizing your own imagined UBI system, not mine. Get it straight.

    How about debate what I actually said, instead of inventing arguments? Anything I said wrong?
    Quote or add more digits to the cpu screen and give 100k to each person. that doesn't work.
    That isn't my system. There needs to be a designed system that accounts for each factor. You appear to be assuming too much about what my system is (this is detectable because what you say is incorrect)...

    At least you can identify the current system is defunct right? What is your solution to current monetary system slavery?

    Quote ubi is just a fancy way of taking from the haves and giving to the have nots.
    And what exactly is bad about that?

    This was added:
    Quote through government theft.
    How is UBI government theft?
    Last edited by Omni; 11th May 2018 at 21:24. Reason: typo fix

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    theft is always wrong. even when it benefits you. the government taking labor / time from one person through violence and giving it to another person is never good.

    universal basic income is always wrong and is clearly theft bc at its core it is the government stealing from some through force and giving it to others.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    theft is always wrong. even when it benefits you. the government taking labor / time from one person through violence and giving it to another person is never good.

    universal basic income is always wrong and is clearly theft bc at its core it is the government stealing from some through force and giving it to others.
    You mean taxes? It seems you are now pointing a theft comment at myself, framing my morality. Clearly not the demeanor I wish to interact with. You are going on ignore.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    theft is always wrong. even when it benefits you. the government taking labor / time from one person through violence and giving it to another person is never good.

    universal basic income is always wrong and is clearly theft bc at its core it is the government stealing from some through force and giving it to others.
    Private industries suck away wealth via inflation and other tactics. A government is the only thing really standing in their way.

    I have no problem being taxed, to a reasonable amount, if it is applied towards things that benefit civilization. I would say it becomes theft or violence as a matter of degree, such as the degree we're at now.

    I am not yet sure about Universal Income as a redistribution scheme, although it sounds better than the current one. It is close to Wade Frazier's thread about free or extremely cheap energy, and one of the principles of Mandaean society, which is that you may not sell food--you are compelled to give it away to a hungry person. Actual distribution of the basics, aside from the monetary question, to me seems utterly crucial. The other side of the coin is that, in a society of "have nots", they are eventually going to kill the "haves". Right, fair, or not, it will go that way.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    I have no problem being taxed, to a reasonable amount, if it is applied towards things that benefit civilization.
    I also have no problem with taxes if they are justly and rightly applied. In fact I think taxes are ideal for our current development level. I also agree that taxes are being abused right now, so it is easy to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    This topic is so frustrating, I know. We are so hopelessly inured to the system that any other way cannot even be contemplated. It is difficult to see that we are being robbed blind right now in this system because we have been under its dominance for so long. It should be obvious and it is, if the fear can be divested, if the meme of scarcity could be overcome - but that is a tall order.

    Let's just look at some of the most nasty insults we have had to endure under this system: two world wars that were funded on both sides by the same banking elite; libor rate tampering to the tune of over 2 trillion dollars; jobless recovery from the last recession costing a sum that the public isn't privy to but will have to repay nonetheless; black projects funded in secret; high tech inventions shelved, occulted, or decreed a national security risk; numerous admissions of lost trillions followed immediately by false flag salvos; missing gold, hollow bars, bogus shipments of gold-plated tungsten, empty vaults; conglomerates abandoning their countries in search of cheaper labor - but the products cost the same; game of hot potato with central bank managers moving from one country to another; illegal wars based on lies and without proper approval from the administrative branch; fiat currency. That's just the most blatant.

    We are a schizophrenic species of lunatics, so of course it is the sane who are considered crazy.

    Simple is no fun - there is no convoluted explanation, no options to consider, no wiggle-room for those with current vested interests.

    We live on a finite planet with finite resources, yes. That does not automatically mean we don't have enough. Whoever divvies up the shares decides that. Right not the portions are not equal because those that decide such things need more, so they say. Right now it's one for you eighteen thousand for me, one for you fifty-three thousand for me, one more for you and one million for me - this is not equitable, no matter how they spin it.

    It is not capitalism that is the best, by the way - it is free enterprise, not the same thing.

    UBI supports free enterprise.

    A UBI is already rightfully ours, we each own this planet as much as any other. Right now it is the fear of violence that keeps us getting up every morning and going to work. Right now we are told work for us or face a life of destitution. Right now every nation on earth is in debt up to their necks because we are told there was not enough. If everyone is in debt, who do we owe?

    What is so confusing about that?
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 11th May 2018 at 23:02.
    Why Not?

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Leuren Moret said that when she was at Livermore Labs in the 1980s, she was told that the plan was to flip the US to communism and the Soviet Union to capitalism. I think UBI is the best way to accomplish that. They manipulate society to make UBI necessary (forced migration and automation taking the jobs), and soon people are demanding it. Afterwards, it will be like the Soviet Union where "we pretend to work (or not) and they pretend to pay us." And ask yourself, just because the Russians did not like the Gulag State that doesn't mean it'll be so bad for Americans, right?

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Leuren Moret said that when she was at Livermore Labs in the 1980s, she was told that the plan was to flip the US to communism and the Soviet Union to capitalism. I think UBI is the best way to accomplish that. They manipulate society to make UBI necessary (forced migration and automation taking the jobs), and soon people are demanding it. Afterwards, it will be like the Soviet Union where "we pretend to work (or not) and they pretend to pay us." And ask yourself, just because the Russians did not like the Gulag State that doesn't mean it'll be so bad for Americans, right?
    Do you have a solution for wage slavery? And UBI is not communism, the best model is soft capitalism. UBI will be worked into Russia also...

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by robinr1 (here)
    theft is always wrong. even when it benefits you. the government taking labor / time from one person through violence and giving it to another person is never good.

    universal basic income is always wrong and is clearly theft bc at its core it is the government stealing from some through force and giving it to others.
    You mean taxes? It seems you are now pointing a theft comment at myself, framing my morality. Clearly not the demeanor I wish to interact with. You are going on ignore.


    of course I mean taxes..you believe theft is correct. I don't. you are also probably perfectly fine with murdering babies too.Its never hard to figure out the immoral folks. they make it very obvious.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Communism is a failed system and has been proven for so long now, also capitalism is on its road to fail because greed is the main problem of this system and has passed beyond limits. The real question is: How do we heal this greedy system ? One of the immediate cure is UBI because thats what it does, it heals wounds of the base in disfavor of the elite. I have seen many interviews opposing UBI, from small talks to proffessional ones and I conclude that most of them talks only for their own interests or because they totally lack of empathy ( not all but most of them). If it was a good intention to implement UBI, it is something it can be done within this financial system. Normally it has its difficulties in the beginning but it can be implemented in several phases, but when the intention is to implement only to show the world how it fails, thats not effort but manipulation. UBI is a RIGHT and it should be treated as such.

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