Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

[TomKat]

Posted by Omni (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)
Actually, I meant neither because what I was "essentially saying" was completely fabricated by Omni.

Actually it was a guess, not a fabrication. Your comment saying I fabricated it appears to be an absurd projection of your own behavior and an attack. In fact, it is slander. When a debate opponent uses slander it is a good sign they have an inferior argument.

UBI's "incredible benefit" is all in your head and has no basis in anything but incredible laziness of the Millennial generation.

Is this why you cannot or have not effectively debated any of my positive points related to UBI and avoided proper debate entirely?

I agree that you are a difficult person to debate, but not because of the strength of your arguments, but because it's hard to attack oversimplified, utopian generalities that ignore history and the life experience of most people over 30 (maybe 40 nowadays). You also have a tendency to misconstrue and argue against that misconstruction rather than any point I was making. Good luck with your UBI, but I think you'd really enjoy a semester of Econ 101. Bye.

[Omni]

deleted---

[Baby Steps]

looking at the UK example, expenditure on benefits is approximately 13% of GDP. This is £76 per week for every man , woman & child. It is hard to establish what proportion if this is staff & administration rather than the actual payments. I would hazard 20-30%.

In the US in rough terms, say GDP is $19Trillion, population 350 million, 13% of GDP is $135 per week for everyone

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by TomKat (here)
<... trim ...>

Redistributing money from the 1% to the unemployed will stimulate spending and cause prices to rise temporarily. But removing the necessity to earn one's own money will cause a weaker economy in the long run, as the Soviet Union found out.

The "killing birds" story merely demonstrates that central planning often goes awry, which is why China abandoned it.

Then the bird story was far too removed from this discussion to have relevance.


There will be a temporary rise, adjustment, and re-normalization in the economy - inflation adjustments will account for cost of living rise. We aren't taling about taking away work done - I think work still needs to happen, but a UBI would have to depend on a shift toward work automation - which we are starting to see right now.

I do agree with you that if no one ever had to work, and robots and automation did it all or even the majority, that the robot owners would steal the wealth of a nation - by design, like the banks do and either the economy would collapse, or you pay the masters to get them to not collapse the economy - exactly the things that international banks do currently. But is the actual problem here in this example out of control capitalism, or, that automation and robots can replace human labour? Its obviously the former.

I recall when computers came to business and the promise that computers could do twice the work in half the time and business would be transformed and everyone's quality of life would increase, we'd have to work less and could get paid more because more work was getting done. So how did that work out? Greedy corporations, banks and business schemed that they could take all this extra money that would be freed up, rather than have it go to the working class who actually operate their "businesses" -- once again thieving capitalists of extreme nature kept us slaves to their systems and took all the extra profit fro themselves while no benefit was provided to the working. This was the reason the 99% working class saw no benefit whatsoever from this promised of increased wealth. This was my original argument on this thread about the thieves. Don't get me wrong, capitalism does have its place - I am not arguing that.

I also recall the romanticizing of GMO foods back in the late 80s - the greatest technology that would end hunger, by providing drought resistant seeds, foods would become more affordable because there would be less crop disease, less wastage because of improved shelf life. None of that has come true in the last 40 years of GMOs being forced on us ... where did this promise of wealth go? To the thieving tyrants I mentioned in my first post here. This was the reason none of the 99% saw benefit from GMOs


I don't think we are talking about people's necessity to work altogether, but to allow those without a great capacity to earn money to at least live a dignified life (elderly, disabled, etc). I would assume that everyone else would desire to supplement a small amount of UBI. Are mcdonald's employees happy with their wage? Or do 99.9999% of them move on in their aspirations to live a better life by seeking better ways to bring in income? Same will be with a basic income of a reasonable amount - people will still want to work.

What is interesting though is the studies done where people work without pay (volunteer) vs those who get paid to do a job. By a large margin those who do not get paid do a far better job in quality, are far more committed and always have a better overall outcome for both themselves and the entities they are working for. The thing that prevents people from even reaching and doing what they love - lending their time and labour to things they are passionate about - is that we are slave to economic systems that seek to take as much time away from us, for themselves, as possible. Directly affecting our ability to make the planet a better place as individuals.

I think you may be lulled by this romantic notion that we aren't slaves, because we get paid for work. For the 99%, the pay is only there, and just barely enough, to keep us from revolting against the controllers of the "economy" - which is ultimately, the international banks.

So yes I agree that UBI doesn't work well against a backdrop of thieving capitalist tyrants who will swoop in like vultures to take that UBI and keep us in debt any way they can. I for one though, do not see this as either "normal" or "acceptable".

There is a whole host of things that could finally work properly if we remove all the extreme excessive greed from the system -- the "millennials" certainly aren't responsible for any of this imbalance and "slavery" in a sense - but they tend to be bright enough to see it and want to lash out against it. Their attitude, while possibly misdirected, is a product of them seeing through the systems that we tend to consider "normal".

[Omni]

deleted---

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Omni (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
I do agree with you that if no one ever had to work, and robots and automation did it all or even the majority, that the robot owners would steal the wealth of a nation - by design, like the banks do and either the economy would collapse, or you pay the masters to get them to not collapse the economy - exactly the things that international banks do currently.

A solution to this is open science and open hardware. If black projects were released under open science this would decentralize the corporations making the robots. I believe this is the clear path we must take.

I agree. And a move toward that would actually be a strong step forward in dismantling the networks of incredible greed.

[Miller]

Universal basic income of £1,600 a month to be trialled in two places in England


A universal basic income of £1,600 a month is to be trialled in England for the first time in a pilot programme.

Thirty people will be paid a lump sum without conditions each month for two years and will be observed to understand the effects on their lives.

Two places in England have been selected for the micro pilot scheme: central Jarrow, in north-east England, and East Finchley, in north London.

Will Stronge, the director of research at the thinktank Autonomy, which is backing the plan, said of the £1,600 figure: “This is a substantial amount. Universal basic income usually covers people’s basic needs but we want to see what effect this unconditional lump sum has on people’s mental and physical health, whether they choose to work or not.

More . . . / https://www.theguardian.com/society/...led-in-england


Interesting, notwithstanding that £1,600pm is almost twice as much than the State Pension. The article adds that "Participants will be randomly selected from a pool of volunteers, with 20% of places allocated to people with disabilities." but it doesn't say how and where to volunteer unfortunately.

[Matthew]

There is a reason nobody did this before.

Before offering Universal Basic Income of £1600 a month, lets run this trial on school students first:

Universal Basic Grades. Under Universal Basic Grades all students will receive an A grade no matter the quality of their work. They can choose to opt in.

Universal Basic Income poisons the balance of the free market based on supply and demand.

They want you in their pocket, I am terrified for people who are struggling who would obviously be tempted by this.

[Bruce G Charlton]

I find it surprising that there is anything to 'debate' on Project Avalon about Universal Basic Income - given that it derives-from, and is being pushed-by, the Globalist Totalitarians, and is an integral part of the Great Reset.

In other words, UBI is part of the world strategy of evil-motivated liars - the same people that gave us Covid-vax, antiracism, CO2 global warming, the transagenda, the Ukraine war etc?

Knowing the provenance of this policy; do people really need to discuss such matters? (Except, maybe, to try and understand to what specific evil purpose "They" intend to deploy this particular evil policy?)

[Docim369]

On point, Bruce, voice of simplistic reason.

[Miller]

Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
I find it surprising that there is anything to 'debate' on Project Avalon about Universal Basic Income - given that it derives-from, and is being pushed-by, the Globalist Totalitarians, and is an integral part of the Great Reset.

In other words, UBI is part of the world strategy of evil-motivated liars - the same people that gave us Covid-vax, antiracism, CO2 global warming, the transagenda, the Ukraine war etc?

Knowing the provenance of this policy; do people really need to discuss such matters? (Except, maybe, to try and understand to what specific evil purpose "They" intend to deploy this particular evil policy?)

Just that it's coming closer Bruce and we should be aware of developments.

[Tintin]

Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
I find it surprising that there is anything to 'debate' on Project Avalon about Universal Basic Income - given that it derives-from, and is being pushed-by, the Globalist Totalitarians, and is an integral part of the Great Reset.

In other words, UBI is part of the world strategy of evil-motivated liars - the same people that gave us Covid-vax, antiracism, CO2 global warming, the transagenda, the Ukraine war etc?

Knowing the provenance of this policy; do people really need to discuss such matters? (Except, maybe, to try and understand to what specific evil purpose "They" intend to deploy this particular evil policy?)

Yes, as usual Bruce, you're bang on the money (pun only partially intended )

I may change the thread title actually

[ExomatrixTV]

Former WEF 'Global Leader for Tomorrow' turned whistleblower, economist Professor Richard Werner, explains how—according to his sources—CBDC will ultimately be held on small microchips implanted under the skin, and Universal Basic Income U.B.I. will be used to bribe people into accepting this gross invasion of their freedom, privacy and bodily autonomy.

• Full Interview:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=acBcLPlsqyA

• Warning from 2007 (17 years ago):

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=oygBg6ETYIM

Nicholas Rockefeller Admitted The Elite's Goal Is A 100% Microchipped And Enslaved World Population! ... Most people assumed it was "far-fetched" to even consider this ever to going to happen.

• America: Freedom to Fascism (2006 film by Aaron Russo)
• Aaron Russo's "MAD AS HELL" Presentation in 1996

Source: https://www.rumble.com/video/v2rt4m2/?pub=ir01b

[ExomatrixTV]

• Does The World Need Universal Basic Income ?
  

[ozmirage]

UBI is never going to work... (pun intended)
When people have free money, why work?

If you think money is the cure for poverty, let's just credit everyone with 22 billion billion UNITS, so that everyone is equally wealthy and no one needs money ever again.

Does having all that money automagically fill store shelves? Or harvest crops from the field? Or process goods and services? Or ship them?
Why would anyone bother to work or trade property for MORE MONEY that they don't need.
Even the starving children are phenomenally wealthy.

Money madness requires a scarce money token and a high demand for it, to goad people to work and sell their property for more money.

In reality, prosperity is not based on money, even if equally distributed. Prosperity is based on prodigious production of surplus usable goods and services, equitably traded and enjoyed. Unfortunately, money mad people still dream of hitting the Lotto or marrying a wealthy spouse. No one dreams of being more productive and efficient.

WELCOME TO THE ASYLUM

Need more proof of the madness?
Take a look around.
There's unmet need. Unemployment. Underemployment. Closed retailers. Closed factories.
Ask each one WHY?
Usual answer "not enough money."
Can't buy, can't hire, can't sell, can't produce because no one has enough money - and Bill Gates is not bidding up the price for milk and cookies.
. . .
WHOA, isn't classic inflation caused by TOO MUCH MONEY chasing too few goods? We just established that there's a money drought!!!!
What has caused inflation for the last 91 years if not TOO MUCH MONEY?
. . .
Ask your friendly neighborhood eCONomist or public servant to explain WHO controls the issuance and trade value of new dollar bills.
There's no correlation between the marketplace and the emission of new bucks. (See: Title 12 USC Sec 411)

What would happen if YOU could create your own medium of exchange - like a private promissory note - a coupon (cash value = 1/20 cent) denominated in hours of labor - that you could trade at any store as if it were money?

[Looks both ways, and whispers]
...you never need public charity nor borrow from banks ever again. and government can't tax it.
[SQUASH!]
Giant Foot Falls from the heavens upon the author who dares to challenge the status quo.

To those who believe in money madness, no explanation is necessary.
To those who do not believe in money madness, no explanation will suffice.
. . .
There is reality - the surplus goods and services available for trade - and there is the abstraction - money tokens used to facilitate trade.

Since there is no correlation between the sum and value of money tokens with the sum and value of the goods and services in the marketplace, it requires a special madness to constrain all trade to money tokens that people have no real control over.

ANY.MONEY.TOKEN.NOT.ISSUED.BY.THE.CREATORS.OF.GOODS.
AND.SERVICES.IS.A.SCAM.TO.ROB.AND.CHEAT.THEM.

[Ernie Nemeth]

This is why I say we should insist that payment for our labour be in the goods and services we all need every month - shelter, food, cloths, car, sundry items, etc. See how quickly prices of such commodities would plummet.