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Thread: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Actually, I meant neither because what I was "essentially saying" was completely fabricated by Omni.
    Actually it was a guess, not a fabrication. Your comment saying I fabricated it appears to be an absurd projection of your own behavior and an attack. In fact, it is slander. When a debate opponent uses slander it is a good sign they have an inferior argument.

    Quote UBI's "incredible benefit" is all in your head and has no basis in anything but incredible laziness of the Millennial generation.
    Is this why you cannot or have not effectively debated any of my positive points related to UBI and avoided proper debate entirely?
    I agree that you are a difficult person to debate, but not because of the strength of your arguments, but because it's hard to attack oversimplified, utopian generalities that ignore history and the life experience of most people over 30 (maybe 40 nowadays). You also have a tendency to misconstrue and argue against that misconstruction rather than any point I was making. Good luck with your UBI, but I think you'd really enjoy a semester of Econ 101. Bye.

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    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    I agree that you are a difficult person to debate, but not because of the strength of your arguments, but because it's hard to attack oversimplified, utopian generalities that ignore history and the life experience of most people over 30 (maybe 40 nowadays).
    Technically in debate attacks are dishonorable. Proper debate involves addressing your opposition's top arguments instead of verbally assaulting them while not touching any of their debate matter...and you finish it off with slanderous insults about their debate content not being debatable.

    I think you are conceding you do not have the arguments in debate, therefore you have to attack and slander your opponent to get the same objectives done as winning the debate.

    Quote You also have a tendency to misconstrue and argue against that misconstruction rather than any point I was making. Good luck with your UBI, but I think you'd really enjoy a semester of Econ 101. Bye.
    What did I misconstrue? Please quote it (without fabrication). By the way, you are on the low end of Christian's pyramid...
    Last edited by Omni; 18th May 2018 at 12:06. Reason: new comment

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    looking at the UK example, expenditure on benefits is approximately 13% of GDP. This is £76 per week for every man , woman & child. It is hard to establish what proportion if this is staff & administration rather than the actual payments. I would hazard 20-30%.

    In the US in rough terms, say GDP is $19Trillion, population 350 million, 13% of GDP is $135 per week for everyone
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 18th May 2018 at 21:59.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    <... trim ...>

    Redistributing money from the 1% to the unemployed will stimulate spending and cause prices to rise temporarily. But removing the necessity to earn one's own money will cause a weaker economy in the long run, as the Soviet Union found out.

    The "killing birds" story merely demonstrates that central planning often goes awry, which is why China abandoned it.
    Then the bird story was far too removed from this discussion to have relevance.


    There will be a temporary rise, adjustment, and re-normalization in the economy - inflation adjustments will account for cost of living rise. We aren't taling about taking away work done - I think work still needs to happen, but a UBI would have to depend on a shift toward work automation - which we are starting to see right now.

    I do agree with you that if no one ever had to work, and robots and automation did it all or even the majority, that the robot owners would steal the wealth of a nation - by design, like the banks do and either the economy would collapse, or you pay the masters to get them to not collapse the economy - exactly the things that international banks do currently. But is the actual problem here in this example out of control capitalism, or, that automation and robots can replace human labour? Its obviously the former.

    I recall when computers came to business and the promise that computers could do twice the work in half the time and business would be transformed and everyone's quality of life would increase, we'd have to work less and could get paid more because more work was getting done. So how did that work out? Greedy corporations, banks and business schemed that they could take all this extra money that would be freed up, rather than have it go to the working class who actually operate their "businesses" -- once again thieving capitalists of extreme nature kept us slaves to their systems and took all the extra profit fro themselves while no benefit was provided to the working. This was the reason the 99% working class saw no benefit whatsoever from this promised of increased wealth. This was my original argument on this thread about the thieves. Don't get me wrong, capitalism does have its place - I am not arguing that.

    I also recall the romanticizing of GMO foods back in the late 80s - the greatest technology that would end hunger, by providing drought resistant seeds, foods would become more affordable because there would be less crop disease, less wastage because of improved shelf life. None of that has come true in the last 40 years of GMOs being forced on us ... where did this promise of wealth go? To the thieving tyrants I mentioned in my first post here. This was the reason none of the 99% saw benefit from GMOs


    I don't think we are talking about people's necessity to work altogether, but to allow those without a great capacity to earn money to at least live a dignified life (elderly, disabled, etc). I would assume that everyone else would desire to supplement a small amount of UBI. Are mcdonald's employees happy with their wage? Or do 99.9999% of them move on in their aspirations to live a better life by seeking better ways to bring in income? Same will be with a basic income of a reasonable amount - people will still want to work.

    What is interesting though is the studies done where people work without pay (volunteer) vs those who get paid to do a job. By a large margin those who do not get paid do a far better job in quality, are far more committed and always have a better overall outcome for both themselves and the entities they are working for. The thing that prevents people from even reaching and doing what they love - lending their time and labour to things they are passionate about - is that we are slave to economic systems that seek to take as much time away from us, for themselves, as possible. Directly affecting our ability to make the planet a better place as individuals.

    I think you may be lulled by this romantic notion that we aren't slaves, because we get paid for work. For the 99%, the pay is only there, and just barely enough, to keep us from revolting against the controllers of the "economy" - which is ultimately, the international banks.

    So yes I agree that UBI doesn't work well against a backdrop of thieving capitalist tyrants who will swoop in like vultures to take that UBI and keep us in debt any way they can. I for one though, do not see this as either "normal" or "acceptable".

    There is a whole host of things that could finally work properly if we remove all the extreme excessive greed from the system -- the "millennials" certainly aren't responsible for any of this imbalance and "slavery" in a sense - but they tend to be bright enough to see it and want to lash out against it. Their attitude, while possibly misdirected, is a product of them seeing through the systems that we tend to consider "normal".
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 18th May 2018 at 16:06.
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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    I do agree with you that if no one ever had to work, and robots and automation did it all or even the majority, that the robot owners would steal the wealth of a nation - by design, like the banks do and either the economy would collapse, or you pay the masters to get them to not collapse the economy - exactly the things that international banks do currently.
    A solution to this is open science and open hardware. If black projects were released under open science this would decentralize the corporations making the robots. I believe this is the clear path we must take.

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    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    I do agree with you that if no one ever had to work, and robots and automation did it all or even the majority, that the robot owners would steal the wealth of a nation - by design, like the banks do and either the economy would collapse, or you pay the masters to get them to not collapse the economy - exactly the things that international banks do currently.
    A solution to this is open science and open hardware. If black projects were released under open science this would decentralize the corporations making the robots. I believe this is the clear path we must take.
    I agree. And a move toward that would actually be a strong step forward in dismantling the networks of incredible greed.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

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