+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 66

Thread: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

  1. Link to Post #21
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Leuren Moret said that when she was at Livermore Labs in the 1980s, she was told that the plan was to flip the US to communism and the Soviet Union to capitalism. I think UBI is the best way to accomplish that. They manipulate society to make UBI necessary (forced migration and automation taking the jobs), and soon people are demanding it. Afterwards, it will be like the Soviet Union where "we pretend to work (or not) and they pretend to pay us." And ask yourself, just because the Russians did not like the Gulag State that doesn't mean it'll be so bad for Americans, right?
    Do you have a solution for wage slavery? And UBI is not communism, the best model is soft capitalism. UBI will be worked into Russia also...
    Yes, it's called minimum wage. Human spirit and dignity is not a problem for me, I think it should be encouraged rather than eliminated in some statist scheme like UBI.
    I had a political science professor who pointed out that political philosophy is an outgrowth of personality. Some people seem congenitally predisposed to want to supervise rather than do their own work, to manage others rather than make an honest living. Those people want to grow govt to totalitarian proportions, and I have no use for them and their personal fantasies or whatever schemes they're peddling.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    robinr1 (12th May 2018)

  3. Link to Post #22
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Leuren Moret said that when she was at Livermore Labs in the 1980s, she was told that the plan was to flip the US to communism and the Soviet Union to capitalism. I think UBI is the best way to accomplish that. They manipulate society to make UBI necessary (forced migration and automation taking the jobs), and soon people are demanding it. Afterwards, it will be like the Soviet Union where "we pretend to work (or not) and they pretend to pay us." And ask yourself, just because the Russians did not like the Gulag State that doesn't mean it'll be so bad for Americans, right?
    Do you have a solution for wage slavery? And UBI is not communism, the best model is soft capitalism. UBI will be worked into Russia also...
    Yes, it's called minimum wage.
    Minimum wage is your solution to wage slavery? I'm glad you are not a world leader... I worked close to or at minimum wage for 2 jobs working about 4-7 days a week, still couldn't afford my own car, my own place, and could barely keep myself fed and satisfied even living at home.

    The model is broken if a young American works 2 jobs, one full time, and cannot even get his own place or his own transportation.
    Quote Human spirit and dignity is not a problem for me, I think it should be encouraged rather than eliminated in some statist scheme like UBI.
    What complete and utter nonsense you speak.

  4. Link to Post #23
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Leuren Moret said that when she was at Livermore Labs in the 1980s, she was told that the plan was to flip the US to communism and the Soviet Union to capitalism. I think UBI is the best way to accomplish that. They manipulate society to make UBI necessary (forced migration and automation taking the jobs), and soon people are demanding it. Afterwards, it will be like the Soviet Union where "we pretend to work (or not) and they pretend to pay us." And ask yourself, just because the Russians did not like the Gulag State that doesn't mean it'll be so bad for Americans, right?
    Do you have a solution for wage slavery? And UBI is not communism, the best model is soft capitalism. UBI will be worked into Russia also...
    Yes, it's called minimum wage.
    Minimum wage is your solution to wage slavery? I'm glad you are not a world leader... I worked close to or at minimum wage for 2 jobs working about 4-7 days a week, still couldn't afford my own car, my own place, and could barely keep myself fed and satisfied even living at home.

    The model is broken if a young American works 2 jobs, one full time, and cannot even get his own place or his own transportation.
    Quote Human spirit and dignity is not a problem for me, I think it should be encouraged rather than eliminated in some statist scheme like UBI.
    What complete and utter nonsense you speak.
    Minimum wage can and should be raised.

    But what's the next logical step after you've got a guaranteed income and haven't worked for years? People at the top will want to start exterminating people like you to save money, and then the media will tell how it's all good and proper, the same way they tell us perpetual war is good and proper. Suddenly your free lunch doesn't taste very good.

  5. Link to Post #24
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    But what's the next logical step after you've got a guaranteed income and haven't worked for years? People at the top will want to start exterminating people like you to save money, and then the media will tell how it's all good and proper, the same way they tell us perpetual war is good and proper. Suddenly your free lunch doesn't taste very good.
    It isn't like that is different from what it is now. And at least if that ever happened, with UBI people would be able to actually figure it out with some free time to research their own planet instead of slaving away for someone else's gain largely oblivious.

    Basically by your logic America's constitution should have never been created, because the British would eventually exploit it. You seem to not want to debate what I actually say... Probably for the better I stop replying...

  6. Link to Post #25
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    60
    Posts
    2,872
    Thanks
    13,129
    Thanked 17,155 times in 2,670 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    And that, my friend Omni, is why I prefer to keep it to myself. This world is not ready for advanced social systems or even advanced technologies. Wade says it best, over and over... integrity is in short supply and heart centered sentience is not yet desirable. Both are needed for the next epoch changing event to occur. Again, it is as simple as that. But people don't like simple. We are dominated by mind, using logic as a hammer to selectively cobble together a worldview that suits, instead of a world view that is real - judging and condemning as a matter of course.
    Why Not?

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    Iloveyou (14th May 2018), Krist (13th May 2018), Omni (13th May 2018)

  8. Link to Post #26
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    But what's the next logical step after you've got a guaranteed income and haven't worked for years? People at the top will want to start exterminating people like you to save money, and then the media will tell how it's all good and proper, the same way they tell us perpetual war is good and proper. Suddenly your free lunch doesn't taste very good.
    It isn't like that is different from what it is now. And at least if that ever happened, with UBI people would be able to actually figure it out with some free time to research their own planet instead of slaving away for someone else's gain largely oblivious.

    Basically by your logic America's constitution should have never been created, because the British would eventually exploit it. You seem to not want to debate what I actually say... Probably for the better I stop replying...
    There are housing projects in the US where almost nobody works. They get a basic income, and they use it to eat junk food, have more babies (for more income), and sell drugs. It's not a model that should be expanded. When you give away all your power, you are... powerless, duh. You don't have to be a wage slave. You can create a business. You sound like an economic illiterate.

  9. Link to Post #27
    UK Avalon Member Frenchy's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th November 2014
    Location
    On the edge of the Atlantic
    Posts
    232
    Thanks
    307
    Thanked 667 times in 198 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    ...Suddenly your free lunch doesn't taste very good.
    . Probably for the better I stop replying...
    There are housing projects in the US where almost nobody works. They get a basic income, and they use it to eat junk food,...( see 2. below )
    When you give away all your power, you are... powerless, duh. ...
    1. Soylent Green 2. Skin RFID Tatoo / Chip / NO More Breeding ability...

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Frenchy For This Post:

    Baby Steps (14th May 2018)

  11. Link to Post #28
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    When you give away all your power, you are... powerless, duh.
    Please provide your argument for how UBI is "giving away all your power"? Working for someone else for the same wage as freedom is giving up your power. What a ridiculous statement. You are so full of double speak it is impossible to have a rational debate with you. You just hammer on the memetic virus-like phrases demonizing UBI, and seem to not be able to debate the points I bring up while inventing further nonsense in an endless path of demonization.

    When UBI comes along how about you forfeit your money and work in this old dinosaur society model for someone else's gain (you can have "a higher minimum wage"....) . See how reasonable that sounds to you at the time.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Omni For This Post:

    Valerie Villars (15th May 2018)

  13. Link to Post #29
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    When you give away all your power, you are... powerless, duh.
    Please provide your argument for how UBI is "giving away all your power"? Working for someone else for the same wage as freedom is giving up your power. What a ridiculous statement. You are so full of double speak it is impossible to have a rational debate with you. You just hammer on the memetic virus-like phrases demonizing UBI, and seem to not be able to debate the points I bring up while inventing further nonsense in an endless path of demonization.

    When UBI comes along how about you forfeit your money and work in this old dinosaur society model for someone else's gain (you can have "a higher minimum wage"....) . See how reasonable that sounds to you at the time.
    Not doublespeak. I have skipped steps in my argument that I thought were obvious. I don't know how old you are, but I'd guess not very.

    A govt that can give you everything can also take it away. The govt should be dependent on the people, not the other way around. Enfeebling the population is just giving away more power to the govt. The Constitution is about keeping the power in the hands of the people. A person on the dole is a budget liability, necessary in the aged, but destructive in the young. Liabilities get eliminated eventually, one way or the other.

  14. Link to Post #30
    Great Britain Avalon Member Baby Steps's Avatar
    Join Date
    29th August 2014
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,170
    Thanks
    11,963
    Thanked 4,856 times in 1,043 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Forgive the possible over-simplification, but I am going to categorize UBI into 4 as below

    1. A scheme where the state creates more money out of thin air, and provides a substantial income to everybody
    2. A scheme where the state provides a smaller payment to everybody, that has no impact on their previous economic behaviour, but still needs to create the spare cash.
    3. A scheme where the state somehow manages to fund large payments to everybody out of current tax receipts
    4. A scheme where the state increases tax slightly, and provides a small payment to everybody, that is too small to significantly change their economic behaviour, and is fund-able from state tax receipts.

    Firstly it is worth recognizing that all the advanced western democracies including the US are in a quasi-socialist state. By this I mean that all of them have accepted legally enforceable taxation on income (albeit in the USA this is unconstitutional and legally ambiguous), with the taxation being redistributive- i.e. the rich pay more and the poor receive more. All discussions should start with this premise. Under this premise, taxing everybody and giving something to everybody in cash is a natural progression.

    Secondly it is important to recognise that the studies & pilots that have been undertaken have all been temporary research exercises that are exploring NOT the affordability of these schemes, rather they are examining the impact on an individual’s life style, happiness & choices when given a large payment. This means a payment that is sufficiently large that many will reduce the amount of paid work that they undertake. This exercise is relevant and important but should not be taken as evaluation of potential policy changes, rather they are exploring the psychology of personal financial management. The fact that this or that scheme is stopped does not point to any deemed failure or change of tack necessarily.

    I agree with those who warn against state creation of large amounts of cash. I am trying and failing to understand modern monetary theory, but feel that the effects of helicopter money could be catastrophic for a country. These would include:
    - Downward fall in currency in relation to other currencies
    - Institutions dumping cash holdings and debt paper holdings
    - Spiralling inflation in imported goods in the home market
    - Inflation causing spiralling wage inflation, conflict and eroded consumer purchasing power
    - Falling profits in the corporate sector
    - Stock market crashes, and ever increasing un-funded pension liabilities
    - Argentina style runs on the currency.

    OK so it could be bad, but it could still be used very carefully. What this would take would be serious legal changes to facilitate state DEBT FREE cash creation, followed by inflation of the currency IN COORDINATION with other economies, so that markets are not spooked (this is how they did QE). Because this is a big undertaking I would suggest that there is only one scenario where this revolutionary act would take place- when Banking tyranny has been removed by the above mentioned legal changes, THEN the state would purchase back its own debt and CANCEL IT, thereby removing huge interest overheads. This might work.

    So any UBI scheme involving cash creation would be a bad idea. This means that large payments to everybody are impractical. The other problem with large payments is that a fair few people stop or reduce work – and this reduces the state tax take, and could result in a spiral of deficits.

    So what are we left with?

    Option 4.

    The idea of option 4 is that wealth creation is unaffected. Or even enhanced. The payments are small, but obviously add to the tax take required. But the up-side is that the payments could replace are large amount of cash costs already in existence.
    These are the complex network of benefits that already exist. The welfare trap that inevitably discourages those in receipt of money to go out and find work. Even when the state tries to encourage this by recouping a fraction of benefit for every £/$ earned in casual work there is still a hassle factor that discourages those people from becoming economically active.

    We have in the UK, a nasty government who thinks it is a good use of resources employing strict rules and hoops to jump through – so that benefits are chopped for minor errors, producing untold suffering and death. The cost of administering these schemes is larger than the benefit savings, and staff are given bonuses according to how much they save. It is a horror story with late stage cancer sufferers being told that they can return to work, and the stress of it actually killing them.

    So under option 4 there are significant savings in terms of:
    - Drastically reduced staff required to administer
    - Large numbers of different benefit schemes dropped/consolidated into one
    - Little or no benefit fraud policing needed.
    - Less stress on other parts of the welfare state such as social care & health.

    The distribution curve of income in western countries is not bell shaped. It is skewed with greater numbers earning less than average and a small number of very high earners. For those in the bottom ¾, they would not notice the small tax hike, because they would be receiving a small payment. For those at the lower end, the payment would be sufficiently small, that it WOULD NOT discourage them from working. For those at the subsistence end, they suddenly would have NO FURTHER REASON not to see if there were a few hours going in the local shop etc. This would greatly improve their quality of life, the economy, local business and ultimately the prosperity that supports state tax revenues.
    For those in the upper middle, the hit would be too small to notice. For those at the top, it would still be modest if done correctly, and those top earners would probably have a much lower chance of having their Rolex snatched in the street outside their house.

    I believe such a type 4 scheme is a great idea. It is the start. Once in place, things can progress as desired. It just means that everybody gets fed, and beggars do not need cash for food.
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 15th May 2018 at 09:58.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Baby Steps For This Post:

    Iloveyou (14th May 2018)

  16. Link to Post #31
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month. Ronald Reagan found that out when he put a tariff on Japanese cars to help US manufacturers compete with a lower price. But immediately, the US manufacturers raised the price of their cars by the amount of the tariff. When student loan amounts at my wife's college were increased, the college wasted no time raising their tuition the same amount. So the whole UBI argument is based on economic illiteracy.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    christian (17th May 2018)

  18. Link to Post #32
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000.
    From what I've seen people advocating UBI think it is an optimal model for society, for reasons like eliminating poverty and crime.

    Quote Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise.
    Not in a perfect system. Just your (unimaginative except when it serves your bias) system.

    Quote If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month. Ronald Reagan found that out when he put a tariff on Japanese cars to help US manufacturers compete with a lower price. But immediately, the US manufacturers raised the price of their cars by the amount of the tariff. When student loan amounts at my wife's college were increased, the college wasted no time raising their tuition the same amount. So the whole UBI argument is based on economic illiteracy.
    In a system that taxes the richest (Robin Hood taxes), and eliminates military spending significantly (which could happen in an optimal model), ends the war on drugs, ends the war on terror, ends the pilfering of the monetary system with no longer accepting private interest generated on printed money, Ai doing every bad job, + other solutions: it could be done. With how positive UBI could be it is worth considering as a model. I would argue it is social illiteracy to deny UBI as a possible solution. Throw in technological illiteracy while your at it, from not knowing Ai will take the jobs in a massive, critical, and potentially disastrous way.
    Last edited by Omni; 15th May 2018 at 19:44. Reason: removed mind controlled text

  19. Link to Post #33
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    25th March 2010
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Age
    55
    Posts
    890
    Thanks
    1,128
    Thanked 3,992 times in 733 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Use to be 25 years ago $10.00 an hour was just that $10.00 an hour, car insurance was $300 a year US, food and fuel were much ,much cheaper ect ect. Fast forward to today that same $10.00 an hour is just that, only everything else has doubled , tripled or more in cost. Thus climbing up the ladder is a tough one no doubt. In regards to so called taxing the rich, you have the famous quote by Margaret Thatcher who said " The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of everyone else's money". Here in the US Top 20% pay 95% of taxes, middle class 'single digits' . I've employed many ,many people over this lifetime, one year I had loaned out so much money to people at my company I put a $200.00 limit to whoever needed to borrow any money. Guess what that Friday I had 3 guys come and ask me for their $200.00 . I don't think there is any easy solution to what is happening now and the Consumer price index CPI does not include food or energy costs. If it did people would be in an uproar. I am in favor for slight increases in minimum wage Omni but the reality of it is as with economic cycles, when the economy gets good like it is now, if your any good at what you do , you can switch jobs for more money at anytime. I just had last week my 19 year old welder came to me and wanted $3.00 more an hour. I said nope, you still have a lot to learn yet, He left and took that other job for $3.00 more an hour. My best advise is life is a chess game , make your moves wisely, seek opportunity, and whatever your profession quoted by a college professor friend of mine " Be the absolute best at whatever job you do have and you will make the most money". Especially now, every employer I know is looking for people.

  20. Link to Post #34
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by pyrangello (here)
    Use to be 25 years ago $10.00 an hour was just that $10.00 an hour, car insurance was $300 a year US, food and fuel were much ,much cheaper ect ect. Fast forward to today that same $10.00 an hour is just that, only everything else has doubled , tripled or more in cost. Thus climbing up the ladder is a tough one no doubt. In regards to so called taxing the rich, you have the famous quote by Margaret Thatcher who said " The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of everyone else's money". Here in the US Top 20% pay 95% of taxes, middle class 'single digits' . I've employed many ,many people over this lifetime, one year I had loaned out so much money to people at my company I put a $200.00 limit to whoever needed to borrow any money. Guess what that Friday I had 3 guys come and ask me for their $200.00 . I don't think there is any easy solution to what is happening now and the Consumer price index CPI does not include food or energy costs. If it did people would be in an uproar. I am in favor for slight increases in minimum wage Omni but the reality of it is as with economic cycles, when the economy gets good like it is now, if your any good at what you do , you can switch jobs for more money at anytime. I just had last week my 19 year old welder came to me and wanted $3.00 more an hour. I said nope, you still have a lot to learn yet, He left and took that other job for $3.00 more an hour. My best advise is life is a chess game , make your moves wisely, seek opportunity, and whatever your profession quoted by a college professor friend of mine " Be the absolute best at whatever job you do have and you will make the most money". Especially now, every employer I know is looking for people.
    That situation has nothing to do with UBI. UBI didn't do that.
    Last edited by Omni; 15th May 2018 at 22:05. Reason: critical comment taken out

  21. Link to Post #35
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    22nd January 2011
    Location
    From 100 Mile House ;-)
    Age
    44
    Posts
    7,037
    Thanks
    22,875
    Thanked 28,639 times in 6,259 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

     
    The only reason why a UBI plan wouldn't work is that there are thieves.

    I am not talking about any of the recipients of UBI either. Our economy is rife with theiving corporations, monopolistic entities, and our entire economy is 100% under the control of banks -- not governments. Unfortunately the extreme power that capitalism has brought a few who now rule over our governments have created a dire situation.

    Banks will not accept anything but debt based societies, and will accept nothing less than driving every country and individual into deep debt.

    Herein lies the issue ... This needs to be fixed. After that, UBI would propel humanity into a true "civilization" of sorts, not this joke of freedom in disguise we are currently presented with.



    At my work, the CEO has stated that he doesn't want anyone to work too hard -- get a lot done, yes but not if it means working really hard. His reasoning is when you are stuck "fighting fires" all day and trying to adhere to process without thought, where is the room for improvement? We all need to time to sit back and be able to plan new processes to make things better, come up with new ideas, be creative and enjoy our jobs. And it has become really clear, in the company as a whole, when we have time to do that compared to when we are resource strapped.

    Expand that to everyone. UBI would give people a little extra time for themselves to think about how to make their lives better, how to make life better, how to make the world better. Hence my comment that, if it can be done without the thieving tyrants interference, humanity would be propelled into a perhaps even a new golden age.

    Time to kill the banks, IMHO.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 16th May 2018 at 00:42.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

    Baby Steps (15th May 2018), Omni (16th May 2018)

  23. Link to Post #36
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by pyrangello (here)
    Use to be 25 years ago $10.00 an hour was just that $10.00 an hour, car insurance was $300 a year US, food and fuel were much ,much cheaper ect ect. Fast forward to today that same $10.00 an hour is just that, only everything else has doubled , tripled or more in cost. Thus climbing up the ladder is a tough one no doubt. In regards to so called taxing the rich, you have the famous quote by Margaret Thatcher who said " The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of everyone else's money". Here in the US Top 20% pay 95% of taxes, middle class 'single digits' . I've employed many ,many people over this lifetime, one year I had loaned out so much money to people at my company I put a $200.00 limit to whoever needed to borrow any money. Guess what that Friday I had 3 guys come and ask me for their $200.00 . I don't think there is any easy solution to what is happening now and the Consumer price index CPI does not include food or energy costs. If it did people would be in an uproar. I am in favor for slight increases in minimum wage Omni but the reality of it is as with economic cycles, when the economy gets good like it is now, if your any good at what you do , you can switch jobs for more money at anytime. I just had last week my 19 year old welder came to me and wanted $3.00 more an hour. I said nope, you still have a lot to learn yet, He left and took that other job for $3.00 more an hour. My best advise is life is a chess game , make your moves wisely, seek opportunity, and whatever your profession quoted by a college professor friend of mine " Be the absolute best at whatever job you do have and you will make the most money". Especially now, every employer I know is looking for people.
    Good points. If you go to a used bookstore then a new one, you can figure past and present purchasing power of the dollar, and figure out what the minimum wage should really be. Based on a 1970 minimum wage of $1.65/hr, I did the calculation about 5 years ago and came up with over $15/hr.

    Business owners are often economically illiterate also. I remember a restaurant owner on TV once complaining that she had to hire illegals because she couldn't find anyone else to work a $7/hr job! The dummy didn't know that if she can't find workers for $7/hr then she has proven it's NOT a $7/hr job! Simple supply and demand, but I doubt a handful of people in Congress understand it.

  24. Link to Post #37
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    86
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 255 times in 72 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by pyrangello (here)
    Use to be 25 years ago $10.00 an hour was just that $10.00 an hour, car insurance was $300 a year US, food and fuel were much ,much cheaper ect ect. Fast forward to today that same $10.00 an hour is just that, only everything else has doubled , tripled or more in cost. Thus climbing up the ladder is a tough one no doubt. In regards to so called taxing the rich, you have the famous quote by Margaret Thatcher who said " The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of everyone else's money". Here in the US Top 20% pay 95% of taxes, middle class 'single digits' . I've employed many ,many people over this lifetime, one year I had loaned out so much money to people at my company I put a $200.00 limit to whoever needed to borrow any money. Guess what that Friday I had 3 guys come and ask me for their $200.00 . I don't think there is any easy solution to what is happening now and the Consumer price index CPI does not include food or energy costs. If it did people would be in an uproar. I am in favor for slight increases in minimum wage Omni but the reality of it is as with economic cycles, when the economy gets good like it is now, if your any good at what you do , you can switch jobs for more money at anytime. I just had last week my 19 year old welder came to me and wanted $3.00 more an hour. I said nope, you still have a lot to learn yet, He left and took that other job for $3.00 more an hour. My best advise is life is a chess game , make your moves wisely, seek opportunity, and whatever your profession quoted by a college professor friend of mine " Be the absolute best at whatever job you do have and you will make the most money". Especially now, every employer I know is looking for people.
    That situation has nothing to do with UBI. UBI didn't do that.
    Seems UBI is a religion for you, part of a utopian vision. But as John Lennon said, "we'd all love to see the plan"

  25. Link to Post #38
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,479
    Thanks
    12,205
    Thanked 20,611 times in 3,123 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Seems UBI is a religion for you, part of a utopian vision. But as John Lennon said, "we'd all love to see the plan"
    You do not debate my points, you just invent more trash. It isn't a religion to me, it is something I do activism in and do not like seeing uninformed (or just wrong) people misinforming the collective. DeDukshyn has the right idea, there are roadblocks in front of a good UBI system, but once it is implemented right I agree with DeDukshyn in that it is part of utopia. I am confident that advanced ET civilizations (if they have money) have forms of UBI unless they have things like a complete society with amassed reincarnational assets. Wage slavery is not part of an advanced and humane society.

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Omni For This Post:

    Baby Steps (16th May 2018), DeDukshyn (16th May 2018), onawah (16th May 2018)

  27. Link to Post #39
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th January 2011
    Location
    Toronto
    Age
    60
    Posts
    2,872
    Thanks
    13,129
    Thanked 17,155 times in 2,670 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Hard to get across that we are all here already with the mines, factories and industries all churning out product. We all already benefit from that output. So far, the emphasis has been on hoarding and control, so the few have most and everyone else has much less. With that economic might comes the power to dictate terms. Terms like price of goods and availability, education, areas of research, war, hours of work and thereby tenure, wages, benefits, heck, even daylight savings time. It is those terms that are threatened by a UBI.
    Why Not?

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ernie Nemeth For This Post:

    Baby Steps (16th May 2018), Iloveyou (16th May 2018)

  29. Link to Post #40
    Europe Avalon Member Iloveyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    28th October 2014
    Posts
    961
    Thanks
    7,856
    Thanked 5,853 times in 928 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.

  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Iloveyou For This Post:

    Baby Steps (16th May 2018), Omni (16th May 2018)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 4 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts