+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 66

Thread: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

  1. Link to Post #41
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.
    That is not true. It's about supply and demand, and it's about money in circulation. If the govt takes the money from the 1% and gives it to the poor, the money in circulation will increase vastly due to the poor spending it. The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. That is just the monetary argument. Also, there is the greed factor, as suppliers of good and services will increase their prices because their customers can afford it.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    christian (17th May 2018)

  3. Link to Post #42
    Great Britain Avalon Member Baby Steps's Avatar
    Join Date
    29th August 2014
    Age
    51
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    13,247
    Thanked 5,711 times in 1,154 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

    Creating spending power in the economy is not a bad thing- supply responds to demand-inflation need not be excessive, especially for highly demand-responsive items such as food.

    Numerous models (perhaps under the 'Keynesian' banner) suggest that pumping up spending power at the bottom end feeds through to growth , including in tax receipts far more effectively that giving money to the rich who will not necessarily go out and spend.

    Thomas Picketty believes that this effect was at the root of the post war boom, which was accompanied by very high marginal tax rates for the rich in many countries.

    He further suggests that the process of stripping the ordinary worker of their spending power, as has been happening for decades, is what is choking off growth and prosperity.

    The best way for ordinary workers to recover their spending power is for there to be a healthy demand for their time, rather than market intervention. At this stage in our consciousness development, a small universal payment would help a lot as well.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Baby Steps For This Post:

    Omni (16th May 2018)

  5. Link to Post #43
    United States Avalon Member rgray222's Avatar
    Join Date
    24th September 2010
    Posts
    1,005
    Thanks
    2,598
    Thanked 6,928 times in 902 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    I don't think I saw this posted.

    No Plans To Expand Finland Basic Income Trial

    The Finnish government has decided not to expand a limited trial in paying people a basic income, which has drawn much international interest.

    Currently 2,000 unemployed Finns are receiving a flat monthly payment of €560 (£490; $685) as basic income.

    "The eagerness of the government is evaporating. They rejected extra funding [for it]," said Olli Kangas, one of the experiment's designers.

    To read the full article on BBC

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to rgray222 For This Post:

    Omni (16th May 2018)

  7. Link to Post #44
    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    13th February 2011
    Age
    32
    Posts
    4,128
    Thanks
    14,394
    Thanked 21,474 times in 2,828 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    If you guarantee everbody an income of a fixed amount, a growing number of people would just become slackers. No doubt about that. Over time, this leads to a lot more money (most probably printed out of thin air) and less products and services. Gigantic inflation, shortages of goods and services.

    For a UBI to work, it must adhere to two fundamental principles:

    1. Collect money through taxing market exchanges
    2. Distribute only as much money as has been collected

    Don't print the UBI out of thin air. Instead, use for example a simple value added tax. A fixed percentage. Each year, you will have different amount of tax revenue in a certain region. Only that amount is redistributed equally among the citizens. No financing through debt ever. Therefore, the people in the region have an incentive to keep being productive and there's literally no possibility for the society to degenerate into a bunch of lazy fools. It's a self-regulating UBI. If people become lazy—or rather unproductive in the sense of not contributing through goods and services to the community—the UBI just goes down. Because it's a value added tax that considers market exchanges in any given year and not a tax on the total wealth of a person, it's also impossible to completly drain someone's savings over time. Thus nobody gets rich on another one's savings, only on everybody's market exchanges.

    That's a model I could support, but I wouldn't force it on anybody.
    Last edited by christian; 16th May 2018 at 22:52.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to christian For This Post:

    Baby Steps (16th May 2018), robinr1 (16th May 2018)

  9. Link to Post #45
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    22nd January 2011
    Location
    From 100 Mile House ;-)
    Age
    44
    Posts
    7,195
    Thanks
    23,360
    Thanked 29,413 times in 6,409 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.
    That is not true. It's about supply and demand, and it's about money in circulation. If the govt takes the money from the 1% and gives it to the poor, the money in circulation will increase vastly due to the poor spending it. The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ...
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.

    What a weird defense for the 1% to keep all their riches and not have it equalized a little more - do you actually believe that the 1% work harder than the 99% and thus deserve to have all the money? ... are you stinking rich? Not wanting to share? lol <wink wink - meant in jest> ... I don't know, I am completely baffled by this post of yours, but I am willing to listen to the evidence you present to support this theory.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

    Omni (17th May 2018)

  11. Link to Post #46
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,676
    Thanks
    12,508
    Thanked 21,688 times in 3,315 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.
    He may mean corruption in industry, how they would raise the price of items if the public was more financially stable. Greed and profiteering instead of offering a really nice product at a reasonable price. However, he does not seem to be capable of debating the positives of UBI... Clearly a system as comprehensive as an entire planet's monetary system would have both pros and cons. I wouldn't mind debating pros and cons but the opposition to UBI ignores all the positives of UBI, I address their cons with often better solutions, they just move on to the next demonization.

    I also sense the mkultra folks have a focus against UBI, because of the incredible social benefit of it...........
    Last edited by Omni; 17th May 2018 at 00:18. Reason: removed comment
    Founder of Universal Aspects™
    universalaspects.io & universalaspects.com

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Omni For This Post:

    DeDukshyn (17th May 2018)

  13. Link to Post #47
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    22nd January 2011
    Location
    From 100 Mile House ;-)
    Age
    44
    Posts
    7,195
    Thanks
    23,360
    Thanked 29,413 times in 6,409 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.
    He may mean corruption in industry, how they would raise the price of items if the public was more financially stable. Greed and profiteering instead of offering a really nice product at a reasonable price. ...
    Ok, I see what you are saying and what he is probably arguing ... but, I think we have here a confusion between cost of living and inflation. If the price of goods goes up due to more money being in circulation naturally from a strong economy, that is inflation. This is what we are talking about. Every economy adjusts for inflation as it occurs. Wages go up to match the is increase .. thus any taxes would increase and thus any money that would go into UBI would increase, and then, the UBI would increase to accommodate. This happens already - without UBI and we know what is needed to deal with it, and it is already implemented in most country's economy. So that's moot. Completely different from a cost of living increase, which sees cost of living increase in comparison to the inflation rate.

    So my call for evidence that the rich staying rich or being richer at the expense of the 99% keeping the cost of living down, still stands. Otherwise it is a moot argument victim to the lack of distinction in thought between inflation and cost of living. I'm pretty sure I learned this in high school.

    Edit:

    But, at the end of the day, I think you already stated that we really aren't talking about injecting money from outside the economy, but redistributing it within the economy ... if that's the case than UBI doesn't inject more money into the system ... at best it "frees up" money to be fed back into the economy(from being held in rich peoples bank accounts), and is actually strengthening the economy - a strong economy experiences inflation. Economics 101 ...

    I have to say sorry TomKat ... Your argument doesn't seem to hold water. Unless I am still misunderstanding your argument here.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 17th May 2018 at 01:13.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

    Omni (17th May 2018)

  15. Link to Post #48
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,676
    Thanks
    12,508
    Thanked 21,688 times in 3,315 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    But, at the end of the day, I think you already stated that we really aren't talking about injecting money from outside the economy, but redistributing it within the economy ... if that's the case than UBI doesn't inject more money into the system ... at best it "frees up" money to be fed back into the economy(from being held in rich peoples bank accounts), and is actually strengthening the economy - a strong economy experiences inflation. Economics 101 ...
    Your post inspires the thought that there is an argument against the increased cost of living also. With more money in the economy businesses would sell more and can adjust their rates for more bulk, and thus prices could actually go down. And yes, a healthy UBI system isn't just creating money out of thin air.

    Also, even in a good working system I don't like the idea of paying $1,400,999 for a meal. So I personally think we should also work on a system to prevent inflation with UBI. UBI is an opportunity to do that.
    Founder of Universal Aspects™
    universalaspects.io & universalaspects.com

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Omni For This Post:

    DeDukshyn (17th May 2018)

  17. Link to Post #49
    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    13th February 2011
    Age
    32
    Posts
    4,128
    Thanks
    14,394
    Thanked 21,474 times in 2,828 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    With more money in the economy businesses would sell more [...] and thus prices could actually go down.
    Supply, demand and incentives.

    Let's say you're a very altruistic person, always having the best of the community in mind. Now there's more money in circulation, thus you sell more, and therefore you lower your prices to make your goods even more affordable. It works out for you, because through the increased number of sales you can afford to sell each item for a lower price. Well done.

    What happens around you? Certainly there will be some people who raise their prices. They can do so, because there is more money in circulation—a higher supply, therefore they can demand more. Customers will pay, these people will earn even more money, and the longer this continues, the greater the wealth divide between those adjusted their prices to the higher money supply and those who didn't.

    More wealth means more economic power, therefore those who didn't adjust their prices will eventually become marginalized, go out of business, live in or near poverty, barely making a living if at all.

    And only because of the people who adjusted their prices. Those greedy bastards. They spoilt it for all. But that's reality, that's humanity.

    There's no way around this, we gotta deal with it. We cannot force this condition to change. How could we, universal price controls? Welcome to the totalitarian technocracy.

    I totally agree that the system we have today (corporatocracy) isn't working for humanity. We gotta change it. In order to change, we need to understand the basic laws that govern human exchanges.

    The most illuminated school of of thought that I found in this regard is the Austrian School of Economics.

    Ludwig von Mises of the Austrian School popularized a concept named praxeology, meaning that: Humans act to satisfy their desires. That's the first priority for humans in society. Not to satisfy the community, not to serve the higher purpose—but to satisfy their desires.

    Because humans first and foremost act to satisfy their desires, prices will always go up when money supply goes up.

    Any system that should replace the current one should not start to try to change the nature of humans, but instead acknowledge and consider their nature. Build a system in which the traits of human nature are utlized in a positive way.

    That's a free market society, governed purely by supply, demand and voluntary exchanges. Nobody has a guaranteed income, nobody has the right to take anything from anybody. Therefore, people always have the incentive to contribute to society in a positive way. Because that's the fastest way to earn money, which is what is needed to satisfy many of one's desires.

    Take the tendency of humans to satisfy their desires and make that work for society.

    Of course, if people then voluntarily establish a UBI, I have absolutely nothing against that. Sounds like a boon even. I would voluntarily participate under the condition that it's not financed through debt but through a fixed tax on market exchanges, so it's self-regulating and neither raises my taxes over time nor takes anything from my savings.
    Last edited by christian; 17th May 2018 at 10:03.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to christian For This Post:

    Baby Steps (17th May 2018)

  19. Link to Post #50
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

    Creating spending power in the economy is not a bad thing- supply responds to demand-inflation need not be excessive, especially for highly demand-responsive items such as food.

    Numerous models (perhaps under the 'Keynesian' banner) suggest that pumping up spending power at the bottom end feeds through to growth , including in tax receipts far more effectively that giving money to the rich who will not necessarily go out and spend.

    Thomas Picketty believes that this effect was at the root of the post war boom, which was accompanied by very high marginal tax rates for the rich in many countries.

    He further suggests that the process of stripping the ordinary worker of their spending power, as has been happening for decades, is what is choking off growth and prosperity.

    The best way for ordinary workers to recover their spending power is for there to be a healthy demand for their time, rather than market intervention. At this stage in our consciousness development, a small universal payment would help a lot as well.
    Re post-war boom, surely you see the difference between paying people well and putting everyone on an automatic dole from the govt?

  20. Link to Post #51
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.
    That is not true. It's about supply and demand, and it's about money in circulation. If the govt takes the money from the 1% and gives it to the poor, the money in circulation will increase vastly due to the poor spending it. The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ...
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.

    What a weird defense for the 1% to keep all their riches and not have it equalized a little more - do you actually believe that the 1% work harder than the 99% and thus deserve to have all the money? ... are you stinking rich? Not wanting to share? lol <wink wink - meant in jest> ... I don't know, I am completely baffled by this post of yours, but I am willing to listen to the evidence you present to support this theory.
    I think you need to study Econ 101 or at least supply and demand and logic. Your colorful moral arguments aren't persuasive and seem to be made from the POV of a utopia that exists only in your own mind. That is the mind of a tyrant, should you ever get the opportunity. I remember the story of how Chairman Mao didn't want humans to compete with birds for natural resources, so he had birds killed by the thousands. The next year the insects ate all the crops. God save us from idealists!

  21. Link to Post #52
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Omni (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.
    He may mean corruption in industry, how they would raise the price of items if the public was more financially stable. Greed and profiteering instead of offering a really nice product at a reasonable price. However, he does not seem to be capable of debating the positives of UBI... Clearly a system as comprehensive as an entire planet's monetary system would have both pros and cons. I wouldn't mind debating pros and cons but the opposition to UBI ignores all the positives of UBI, I address their cons with often better solutions, they just move on to the next demonization.

    I also sense the mkultra folks have a focus against UBI, because of the incredible social benefit of it...........
    Actually, I meant neither because what I was "essentially saying" was completely fabricated by Omni.

    UBI's "incredible benefit" is all in your head and has no basis in anything but incredible laziness of the Millennial generation.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    Iloveyou (17th May 2018)

  23. Link to Post #53
    Great Britain Avalon Member Baby Steps's Avatar
    Join Date
    29th August 2014
    Age
    51
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    13,247
    Thanked 5,711 times in 1,154 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

    Creating spending power in the economy is not a bad thing- supply responds to demand-inflation need not be excessive, especially for highly demand-responsive items such as food.

    Numerous models (perhaps under the 'Keynesian' banner) suggest that pumping up spending power at the bottom end feeds through to growth , including in tax receipts far more effectively that giving money to the rich who will not necessarily go out and spend.

    Thomas Picketty believes that this effect was at the root of the post war boom, which was accompanied by very high marginal tax rates for the rich in many countries.

    He further suggests that the process of stripping the ordinary worker of their spending power, as has been happening for decades, is what is choking off growth and prosperity.

    The best way for ordinary workers to recover their spending power is for there to be a healthy demand for their time, rather than market intervention. At this stage in our consciousness development, a small universal payment would help a lot as well.
    Re post-war boom, surely you see the difference between paying people well and putting everyone on an automatic dole from the govt?
    Hi- yes, I do.
    I think a small weekly payment is a separate issue from workers getting a good wage.

    The small weekly payment would only be a small percentage of income for most, but it would

    1. Function as a safety net for those suffering from instability, change, economic problems
    2. Completely banish the horrible welfare traps/dependency culture that blights us
    3. guarantee that everybody got enough to eat basically
    4. Remove many pointless expensive government jobs/tax payer overhead, such as eligibility checking, fraud prevention etc
    5. give many casual workers the opportunity to be a bit pickier regarding their work conditions or career choice
    6. put a bit of pressure on employers to make work positions more attractive to workers
    7. Allow the youth to explore training, self expression and live a freer life
    8. By discouraging begging, it would cut off the phenomenon where beggars ask for money for food then feed a different addiction
    9. Empower parents to deal with immature freeloading adults
    10. Allow a national service system
    11. By letting the youth walk away from drudgery (or have the option to) it fuels ambition and self development
    12. Reduced fear and insecurity among the economically marginalised
    13. Reduced crime rate- and the overheads for tax payers that this represents
    14. Reduced fear and insecurity leads to reduced tax payer overheads from Mental Health issues

    etc etc
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Baby Steps For This Post:

    Iloveyou (17th May 2018), Omni (17th May 2018)

  25. Link to Post #54
    Europe Avalon Member
    Join Date
    28th October 2014
    Posts
    974
    Thanks
    7,915
    Thanked 6,034 times in 942 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    On a different note: What we basically need without having too much to worry about is food, water, housing, health care (not the profit oriented pharma-hell, but a reasonable mix of conventional and alternative medicine). That cannot be denied. Everything else is debateable. Maybe everything else must be reinvented from scratch. The potential is there.

    When companies increase the prices disproportionately, let’s boycott the products. Stroll through a large supermarket or a shopping mall and look how many of the products available you really need/want. With just 10% of it the selection would still be large enough. A lot of crap is bought and consumed due to a need for consolation or distraction. We are drowning in newly produced garbage.

    Once they’ve managed to get off the hamster-wheel people could use their energy to start small production sites, regional businesses, develop rural economy. That will not happen within one or two years, but probably within one or two generations. We just must not forget to keep a sharp eye on what the powers-that-(still)-be-(for a while) are up to, meanwhile.

    What about technological advancement? Hi-tech business, industrial production? I’m not suggesting to go back to the middle-ages. Can you imagine that a changed attitude towards life, an altered view on cooperation or prosperity would influence people in all fields of work, even on different levels of hierarchy?

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Iloveyou For This Post:

    Baby Steps (17th May 2018), Omni (17th May 2018), Zampano (18th May 2018)

  27. Link to Post #55
    Europe Avalon Member
    Join Date
    28th October 2014
    Posts
    974
    Thanks
    7,915
    Thanked 6,034 times in 942 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    UBI's "incredible benefit" is all in your head and has no basis in anything but incredible laziness of the Millennial generation.
    It seems that you do not listen, or people do not really listen to you. If not UBI, do you have any ideas or suggestions on how to deal with the current style of rampant dog-eat-dog capitalism, which is far from any ethics or human perspective?

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Iloveyou For This Post:

    Omni (17th May 2018)

  29. Link to Post #56
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    22nd January 2011
    Location
    From 100 Mile House ;-)
    Age
    44
    Posts
    7,195
    Thanks
    23,360
    Thanked 29,413 times in 6,409 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.
    That is not true. It's about supply and demand, and it's about money in circulation. If the govt takes the money from the 1% and gives it to the poor, the money in circulation will increase vastly due to the poor spending it. The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ...
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.

    What a weird defense for the 1% to keep all their riches and not have it equalized a little more - do you actually believe that the 1% work harder than the 99% and thus deserve to have all the money? ... are you stinking rich? Not wanting to share? lol <wink wink - meant in jest> ... I don't know, I am completely baffled by this post of yours, but I am willing to listen to the evidence you present to support this theory.
    I think you need to study Econ 101 or at least supply and demand and logic. Your colorful moral arguments aren't persuasive and seem to be made from the POV of a utopia that exists only in your own mind. That is the mind of a tyrant, should you ever get the opportunity. I remember the story of how Chairman Mao didn't want humans to compete with birds for natural resources, so he had birds killed by the thousands. The next year the insects ate all the crops. God save us from idealists!
    Another post that doesn't lay down any argument or forward the conversation. Right ... I was advocating wiping out something to give to something else ... ?? I know supply and demand logic. Can you, using supply and demand logic explain this what you wrote:

    Quote "The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ... "
    Because my understanding of economics says that moving money from the 1% into the economy will make a stronger economy. This is basics. Money tied up weakens an economy - money distributed and spent creates a stronger one. Yes a strong economy creates inflation, but every economy has built in compensators for inflation.

    How you got killing all the birds as a strategy out of that question I proposed ... I am at a loss to determine. Try to stay relevant.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    When your are two steps ahead, you are a crackpot.

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

    Omni (17th May 2018)

  31. Link to Post #57
    Avalon Member Omni's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st February 2011
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Posts
    3,676
    Thanks
    12,508
    Thanked 21,688 times in 3,315 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Actually, I meant neither because what I was "essentially saying" was completely fabricated by Omni.
    Actually it was a guess, not a fabrication. Your comment saying I fabricated it appears to be an absurd projection of your own behavior and an attack. In fact, it is slander. When a debate opponent uses slander it is a good sign they have an inferior argument.

    Quote UBI's "incredible benefit" is all in your head and has no basis in anything but incredible laziness of the Millennial generation.
    Is this why you cannot or have not effectively debated any of my positive points related to UBI and avoided proper debate entirely?
    Last edited by Omni; 17th May 2018 at 19:48. Reason: error fix
    Founder of Universal Aspects™
    universalaspects.io & universalaspects.com

  32. Link to Post #58
    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    13th February 2011
    Age
    32
    Posts
    4,128
    Thanks
    14,394
    Thanked 21,474 times in 2,828 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    This is a very interesting topic to me, and I've read inspiring arguments from both proponents and opponents of a UBI here. As it proceeds, the conversation becomes more bitter with every post...



    If one is frustrated, what to do with that energy?

  33. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to christian For This Post:

    Baby Steps (18th May 2018), Omni (18th May 2018)

  34. Link to Post #59
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    Economic growth more likely when wealth distributed to poor instead of rich

    Creating spending power in the economy is not a bad thing- supply responds to demand-inflation need not be excessive, especially for highly demand-responsive items such as food.

    Numerous models (perhaps under the 'Keynesian' banner) suggest that pumping up spending power at the bottom end feeds through to growth , including in tax receipts far more effectively that giving money to the rich who will not necessarily go out and spend.

    Thomas Picketty believes that this effect was at the root of the post war boom, which was accompanied by very high marginal tax rates for the rich in many countries.

    He further suggests that the process of stripping the ordinary worker of their spending power, as has been happening for decades, is what is choking off growth and prosperity.

    The best way for ordinary workers to recover their spending power is for there to be a healthy demand for their time, rather than market intervention. At this stage in our consciousness development, a small universal payment would help a lot as well.
    Re post-war boom, surely you see the difference between paying people well and putting everyone on an automatic dole from the govt?
    Hi- yes, I do.
    I think a small weekly payment is a separate issue from workers getting a good wage.

    The small weekly payment would only be a small percentage of income for most, but it would

    1. Function as a safety net for those suffering from instability, change, economic problems
    2. Completely banish the horrible welfare traps/dependency culture that blights us
    3. guarantee that everybody got enough to eat basically
    4. Remove many pointless expensive government jobs/tax payer overhead, such as eligibility checking, fraud prevention etc
    5. give many casual workers the opportunity to be a bit pickier regarding their work conditions or career choice
    6. put a bit of pressure on employers to make work positions more attractive to workers
    7. Allow the youth to explore training, self expression and live a freer life
    8. By discouraging begging, it would cut off the phenomenon where beggars ask for money for food then feed a different addiction
    9. Empower parents to deal with immature freeloading adults
    10. Allow a national service system
    11. By letting the youth walk away from drudgery (or have the option to) it fuels ambition and self development
    12. Reduced fear and insecurity among the economically marginalised
    13. Reduced crime rate- and the overheads for tax payers that this represents
    14. Reduced fear and insecurity leads to reduced tax payer overheads from Mental Health issues

    etc etc
    I see no point in having a small weekly payment for most when it is a small minority who need it. Wouldn't it be smarter to have a small weekly payment for a small number of people? Unless the purpose is to take the shame out of hand-outs by putting everyone on the dole, as a step toward communism. That is what George McGovern proposed back in 1972.

  35. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    Baby Steps (18th May 2018)

  36. Link to Post #60
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    178
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 617 times in 148 posts

    Default Re: Universal Basic Income - Pros / Cons

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Iloveyou (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Many people advocating for UBI think that it will help them pay their rent and groceries. They think with an extra $1000 a month, they'll be set. But that would be true only if they were the only person getting that $1000. Giving everyone a guaranteed income only accomplishes a proportionate price rise. If everyone gets $1000 a month, the cost of living goes up $1000 a month.
    That would be the case if the governments decided to create more fiat money. UBI doesn’t mean more money, but redistribution. The amount of money in circulation should remain the same.

    It could be that luxury goods become more expensive. Or less people have to move into the cities because of jobs. So the rents in cities are likely to fall.

    I personally believe many middle-aged and older people will keep their jobs if possible (maybe shorter working time), as long as they’re not rationalized, esp. in service jobs. Do not underestimate the comfort of daily routine or force of habit, even lethargy. Though it will be a great chance for the young - to experiment, to test and discover their skills and potentials before they settle down. I wish I’d had this possibility back then.
    That is not true. It's about supply and demand, and it's about money in circulation. If the govt takes the money from the 1% and gives it to the poor, the money in circulation will increase vastly due to the poor spending it. The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ...
    You are going to have to explain how the rich, accumulating more, keeps the cost of living down for the poor. This is essentially what you are saying, and I need you to show me some evidence.

    What a weird defense for the 1% to keep all their riches and not have it equalized a little more - do you actually believe that the 1% work harder than the 99% and thus deserve to have all the money? ... are you stinking rich? Not wanting to share? lol <wink wink - meant in jest> ... I don't know, I am completely baffled by this post of yours, but I am willing to listen to the evidence you present to support this theory.
    I think you need to study Econ 101 or at least supply and demand and logic. Your colorful moral arguments aren't persuasive and seem to be made from the POV of a utopia that exists only in your own mind. That is the mind of a tyrant, should you ever get the opportunity. I remember the story of how Chairman Mao didn't want humans to compete with birds for natural resources, so he had birds killed by the thousands. The next year the insects ate all the crops. God save us from idealists!
    Another post that doesn't lay down any argument or forward the conversation. Right ... I was advocating wiping out something to give to something else ... ?? I know supply and demand logic. Can you, using supply and demand logic explain this what you wrote:

    Quote "The rich won't spend less, they will just accumulate less in their bank accounts. So the cost of living will increase proportionately. ... "
    Because my understanding of economics says that moving money from the 1% into the economy will make a stronger economy. This is basics. Money tied up weakens an economy - money distributed and spent creates a stronger one. Yes a strong economy creates inflation, but every economy has built in compensators for inflation.

    How you got killing all the birds as a strategy out of that question I proposed ... I am at a loss to determine. Try to stay relevant.
    Redistributing money from the 1% to the unemployed will stimulate spending and cause prices to rise temporarily. But removing the necessity to earn one's own money will cause a weaker economy in the long run, as the Soviet Union found out.

    The "killing birds" story merely demonstrates that central planning often goes awry, which is why China abandoned it.

  37. The Following User Says Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    DeDukshyn (18th May 2018)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 3 4 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts