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Thread: It flies - Production flying car

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    Default It flies - Production flying car

    Pal-V

    A strange looking "car", but it's in production and it doesn't use the "engine-propeller-pod" system that we've seen on other flying cars. It actually flies then in "gyro-copter" mode. It does use a strong pusher prop (horizontally mounted like an airplane's engine) to get it up to speed where the gyrocopter blade can lift it off.

    This system looks like a miniature helicopter when the lifting system is deployed.

    Here is a short < 5 minute uTube


    I wonder about bad weather (IFR) certified?

    Here is their webpage:

    https://www.pal-v.com/en/purchase-your-pal-v

    Price : just under € 299.000,- not including VAT or customization (they call it 'works')
    Last edited by Bob; 17th July 2018 at 15:17.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Some images of Pal-V






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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    er, how do I turn on the wipers? (instrument cluster, nav package, etc.)




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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    i'll take 2 please.

    (i would more likely than not crash the first one LOL)

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The SCIENCE behind the 'technology' - AUTO-GYRO

    It is not a "helicopter"

    the definition of helicopter is:

    Quote a type of aircraft that derives both lift and propulsion from one or more sets of horizontally revolving overhead rotors. It is capable of moving vertically and horizontally, the direction of motion being controlled by the pitch of the rotor blades.

    ref: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/helicopter and other sources
    An auto-gyro-copter definition:

    Quote a type of rotorcraft that uses an unpowered rotor in free autorotation to develop lift. Forward thrust is provided independently, typically by an engine-driven propeller. While similar to a helicopter rotor in appearance, the autogyro's rotor must have air flowing across the rotor disc to generate rotation, and the air flows upwards through the rotor disc rather than down.
    The differences are that air must flow over the horizontal rotary wings (also called blades) for a negative pressure gradient to exist at the top of the wing, to cause LIFT. (see below)


    The autogyro rotor blade generates lift in the same way as a glider's wing.

    The craft must be moving forward with respect to the surrounding air in order to force air through the overhead rotor, autogyros are generally not capable of vertical takeoff (except in a strong headwind).

    Under worst conditions Pal-V could require about a MILE of runway to get up enough speed to lift off (pretty lame for an autogyro).. Although it claims to be able to land within 100 feet of touchdown.. and in ideal conditions with the ROTOR blades pre-spun up to 1/2 speed with an electric boost motor drive, 350-600 feet to take off. (I assume that there are ground roll indicators as well as rotor speed indicators as well as headwind/tailwind indicators to allow you to compute the necessary minimums and ideals for safe take-off)

    The reason for the long runway is there is inadequate lift generated from the rotary wing/blade system apparently to do it in any less distance than that.

    Juan de la Cierva invented the modern autogyro (autogiro in Spanish) in the early 1920s.

    Possibly the reader would recall the presentation of an autogyro in "You Only Live Twice" 1967 release, based on a novel published in 1964; such was the twelfth James Bond book written by Ian Fleming. 'James Bond' flies one - dubbed " Little Nellie ", a Wallis WA-116 Agile British autogyro.


    007 was not the first novel hero to fly an auto-gyro.. Batman's first aircraft was an autogyro. The "Batgyro" was introduced in Detective Comics #31 in September 1939. It only made three appearances before being replaced by a more conventional fixed-wing aircraft.

    PAL-V ONE (Personal Air and Land Vehicle ONE) - it has two seats and a 160 kW flight certified gasoline engine, giving it a top speed of 180 km/h (112 mph) on land and in air, and a Maximum Takeoff Weight of 910 kg.

    SPECS:
    General characteristics
    • Crew: 1
    • Capacity: 2
    • Length: 4 m (13 ft 1 in) with rotor folded
    • Width: 1.6 m (5 ft 3 in) with rotor folded
    • Height: 1.6 m (5 ft 3 in) with rotor folded
    • Empty weight: 680 kg (1,499 lb)
    • Gross weight: 910 kg (2,006 lb)
    • Propellers: 2-bladed

    Performance
    • Maximum speed: 180 km/h (112 mph; 97 kn)
    • Stall speed: 0 km/h; 0 mph (0 kn)
    • Never exceed speed: 180 km/h; 112 mph (97 kn)
    • Range: 354–507 km; 191–274 nmi (220–315 mi) in-flight; 1,210 km; 650 nmi (750 mi) on land
    Simulator flight for learning the machine:

    Last edited by Bob; 17th July 2018 at 15:58.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The SCIENCE behind auto-gyro-copter flight difficulties (or why crashes can happen more-so than with flying a regular helicopter)

    Let's take a look at "Little Nellie" flying in the 007 film, "You only live twice"...


    references from : https://blog.chron.com/lightflight/2006/04/gyrocopters/
    Gyrocopters have been subject to one main problem ever since they were invented, something called Pilot Induced Oscilation, or, PIO.

    A lot of people skid off the road in their cars due to PIO, too, so it’s not totally the problem of gyro’s.

    Basically, if you oversteer, you have a tendency, of course, to steer back the opposite way.

    But if you oversteer the opposite way, then you have to steer back again the other way.

    Each time you try to correct, you simply make it worse, but in the opposite direction.

    This oscillation isn’t caused by the machine, but by the person operating it. Consequently, designing a gyrocopter (or a car, for that matter) that makes it difficult to start these kinds of oscillations would be a good thing.
    If you recall watching carefully, the pilot in the Bond film was seen "wiggling" back and forth during ascent. That was the "oversteering" issue in action..

    Here this problem is shown a LOT clearer in a more recent video:


    Crash scenario:

    One of the worst things you can do in a gyro is to perform any maneuver which will stop that forward progress.

    If the wind stops being pushed through the rotor, then you lose your lift, and you stall. You then have moments if you are high enough in altitude to recover. Too low and you crash.

    Watch an insufficient speed crash due to loss of lift (The gyrocopter flies behind the power-curve immediately after take off (too slow). It crashes consequently) :


    If you don't have enough RUN-WAY for the PAL-V in other words, you are not going to have enough wind moving over your gyroblades..
    Last edited by Bob; 16th July 2018 at 23:33.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The SCIENCE behind blowing your power curve to hell

    It doesn't take off, or you can crash.. That angle of the nose must be correct for your vehicle in other words.. the vehicle has a certain thrust profile from your PUSHER, and a certain lift potential based on the speed and angle of attack of your rotor blades. Do it wrongly - tragedy.. Do it safely and you fly.. Can't wait to spend € 299.000,- ??


    Lessons with your vehicle and/or an autogyro is essential..

    Pushing that powercurve - no forward speed and there can be problems - a low-level maneuver at low speed and with a tail wind, can result in impact with the ground.

    Looking at the accidents that did not result in fatalities, the statistics show that more than 50% of gyrocopter accidents occur during takeoff and/or landing. (That's not an overwhelming discovery as these phases of flight are infamous for catching out pilots in any type of aircraft. )

    Can you imagine tying one on (or 3 or 4) and barreling down the interstate up to 88 mph to take off and not quite seeing the overhead power-lines?

    Quote [..]
    the gyro’s worst enemy is itself.

    It loves to be thrown around and likes to fly low.

    It wants to go into a ‘hover’ and wants to fly slow.

    The machine allows a very inexperienced person to do these things.

    With the relative low hourly cost of the machine and the very low number of hours you need before you can fly it all on your own, a gyro rating makes for a very attractive entry into flying, or an alternative to flying fixed wing aircraft. The average age of the 60 pilots that had accidents is 46; in fact, only four of the pilots were in their twenties.

    Stay away from flying at tree top height, do not do maintenance on your gyro if you are not an approved person, watch the windsock when you takeoff and remember that you have a beach umbrella stuck to your gyro when you land.
    Last edited by Bob; 16th July 2018 at 23:49.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Well, does the gyro-copter "car" concept seem like something you want to fly or how about something more like a tried and true fixed wing design (with a pusher prop), and hybrid electric dual motor front drive wheels, street legal, and air certified? A road vehicle with airbags, high speed handling ability, sleek design and darned good performance and gas mileage on the road and in the air..

    Aeromobil and AEROMOBIL by the manufacturer) is a Slovak prototype roadable aircraft, designed by Štefan Klein and first flown in 2013. The aircraft will be produced by AeroMobil s.r.o..

    AeroMobil s.r.o. company co-founder and CEO Juraj Vaculík indicated in March 2015 that the vehicle is intended for "wealthy supercar buyers and flight enthusiasts". Aeromobil unveiled the production version of the vehicle in April 2017 and announced that it would be available for preorder before the end of 2017.
    General characteristics
    • Crew: two
    • Capacity: two passengers
    • Length: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
    • Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 4 in) wings extended
    • Width: 2.24 m (7 ft 4 in) wings folded
    • Empty weight: 600 kg (1,323 lb)
    • Powerplant: 1 × Rotax 912 four cylinder horizontally-opposed liquid and air-cooled piston aircraft engine, 75 kW (100 hp)

    Performance
    • Maximum speed: 200 km/h (124 mph; 108 kn) maximum road speed: 160 km/h (99 mph)
    • Stall speed: 60 km/h (37 mph; 32 kn)
    • Range: 700 km (435 mi; 378 nmi) Road range: 875 km (544 mi)
    • Driving fuel consumption: 8 l/100 km (29.4 mpg‑US; 35.3 mpg‑imp)
    • Flight fuel consumption: 15 l (4.0 US gal; 3.3 imp gal) /hour

    Now THIS I LIKE...


    It is considered a short take-off and landing vehicle, and a great road vehicle. https://www.aeromobil.com/aeromobil-4_0-stol/



    With a very nice "dashboard" instrument cluster - "glass cockpit" design


    And if that doesn't make you go woooooohooooo....

    Aeromobil has plans for a generation 5 VTOL (Vertical take-off and Landing vehicle)




    Enclosed vortex-Pods not needed for this design.. very straight-forward VTOL concept.


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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Quote Posted by dynamo (here)
    i'll take 2 please.

    (i would more likely than not crash the first one LOL)
    Ha ha, that's why I wouldn't want one

    Can't help wonder what insurance would be like. $4,000/month insurance... ha ha ha

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The above are good for chopping People into small pieces. Take a look at some better concepts:

    The Blackfly:







    Webpage:
    https://www.opener.aero/




    and the Lilium:





    Webpage:
    https://lilium.com/

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    When do we get the anti-grav version? 😁

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Car - like driving type vehicle on the road;

    Seems to me, if we wanted to discuss drone-like motor crafts you could get a whole thread about that.. I like the aston-martin drone-like vehicles, but that isn't street legal..



    So getting back on topic, I'd like to see production CARS which are street legal which can fly which of course is what this thread is about

    there are no back to the future deloreans out there as of now.

    until then

    Last edited by Bob; 17th July 2018 at 21:30.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Agreed........I'd be happy if I knew it won't just drop out of the sky.......

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Quote Posted by Justplain (here)
    When do we get the anti-grav version? 😁
    This!

    It's very impressive engineering, certainly. But wings, propellers and aerodynamics are so 100 years ago. Atmospheric propulsion has been in a stall for at least 50 years, same for rocketry. All this is like redesigning the wheel imo.

    Because the good stuff - the next generation tech - is buried is deep black layers of secrecy. What was it Ben Rich said of this tech? "It would take an act of GOD to ever get them out to benefit humanity."

    Maybe one day we'll see a 'tech-gate' blow up. It will then all come out, and eventually we'll get to see something more along the lines of...

    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The Moller Skycar was one of the first concepts mooted, but it never got anywhere, and only ever made brief 'flights' tethered to a giant crane. It was loud, unstable, and only got a few dozen feet off the ground.

    Their photos of the thing flying above the clouds are all Photoshopped. But here's a real one:



    ***

    I have to say, some of the designs on this thread are VERY cool. Not a car per se, but I totally loved the BlackFly posted above.

    I can see that modern microdrone software (that co-ordinates a number of propellers to make the small thing highly maneuverable) can be applied to a much larger craft like the BlackFly, which can do just about anything the pilot wants.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Sort of like the amphibious car. Not a really good car. Not a really good boat. The flying car is certainly a great concept, but how practical and safe? Just a toy for the ultra-rich?
    The quantum field responds not to what we want; but to who we are being. Dr. Joe Dispenza

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Hi Bob we have posted several articles over the years most recently on
    Targe's thread about technology , this was posted a few days a ago....

    They show some archive clips including your own flying saucer , could
    explain some sightings of the Jetsons in the 1980's....

    I will be surprised if they are allowed for security reasons, they would
    be a terrorists dream I would of thought or at least perceived as one.


    Flying car innovator believes he can finally make it a reality



    Published on 12 Jul 2018
    No technological dream has captured the minds of the media quite like the flying car.
    Marcus Leng of Blackfly believes his invention will allow it to become a reality. CBS
    News correspondent John Blackstone, who has chased down the flying car fantasy
    for 30 years, reports on this Silicon Valley innovator.

    ================================================== =

    We took to the sky in Kitty Hawk's flying car

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz0wLD_02nQ
    Published on 6 Jun 2018...( 4 mins )...
    Larry Page-backed Kitty Hawk has unveiled its first commercial vehicle, Flyer.
    CNNMoney's Rachel Crane took it for a spin.
    Last edited by Cidersomerset; 18th July 2018 at 17:18.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Sort of like the amphibious car. Not a really good car. Not a really good boat.
    This is way off-topic, but I had to drop this in here. Back in 1951 (nineteen fifty-one), Ben Carlin drove/sailed a makeshift amphibious jeep across the Atlantic.

    He later did a full circumnavigation of the globe. He really did, but it's almost impossible to believe. (That's a little like a PAL-V or an AEROMOBIL design — but a primitive 1950s version! — flying across the Atlantic or Pacific, too.)

    Photos here:



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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    The issues with civilian drone vehicles to date are run-time verses cost.

    20 minutes for an affordable drone (affordable is relative) which can hold a nice 4K camera and fly around with auto-correction software, GPS, nav packages and so forth. Facial capture, or object capture and track, amazing features..

    And the issue is weight of vehicle, to payload, to thrust to get the wings lifting, to road speed and air speed - and to maintain lift is expensive in terms of fuel used or battery power used..

    Payloads of up to 400-500 pounds and that are capable of flying for hundreds of miles at 100 miles per hour require unique designs of 1 engine for thrust in the air and one or two engines for moving the vehicle on the road. Who wants a flying drone with a lawnchair attached to it which will only get them a few minutes flight time, being terribly noisy, not have adequate fail-safe reliability (such as ballistic parachute that can be deployed if there is a powerplant failure).. ?

    Terrafugia is another one of those vehicles which really isn't 'making it' as good as it could, yet. They are hoping the TF-X will garner attention, and buyers..

    Check out these windmills on the proposed TF-X - slice and dice anybody?







    The noise factor for an 8-20 motor drone system is horrendous.

    I used drones while doing my field-work, and it's not a pretty experience, and most certainly not something I would want to see saturating the skies, from a standpoint of being "within" or on the land subjected to the noise.

    The best bang for the buck with the least noise profile, the best speed, the best range (on the land and air) still appears to be a pusher prop, electric motor front-wheel drive (high efficiency axial motors driving two front wheels using battery/powerplant recharge braking techniques) and high efficiency retractable wings.

    No motors/props on the wings.

    Jets are fuel guzzlers and expensive to fly, and most certainly not safe for being 'on-the-road' with a scorching exhaust.. meaning the "jet" would have to be used ONLY whence in the air, no VTOL is possible due to potential for creating FIRES or other damage on land.

    The winner as of this moment appears to be aeromobil.

    (BTW, "black-fly" scaled up "drone" has not demonstrated the range or carrying people for appreciable lengths of time efficiently. The power needed to fly VTOL, and hover consumes immense amounts of power. The craft can fly for up to 25 miles at a speed of 62 mph, which represents the current limitations of battery tech. It is a "novelty", not something that a serious user would consider either quiet, or efficient. (IMHO of course) - but as a short range "air taxi" able to do a quick jump, provided one can deal with the immense ground noise pollution, it may hold some merit for that application - it is not a "roadable personal flying machine"..


    The cost of lithium batteries to be replaced every year at the high energy load can be extremely expensive.. Charging is going to take time also, another failure of electric cars in general... )
    Last edited by Bob; 18th July 2018 at 17:22.

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    Default Re: It flies - Production flying car

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Sort of like the amphibious car. Not a really good car. Not a really good boat. The flying car is certainly a great concept, but how practical and safe? Just a toy for the ultra-rich?
    If one looks at the price for a two-four seater airplane, the cost of the aero roadable cars is pretty closely priced.

    Cessna aircraft makes the 172-SP, and it goes for $307,500 (US); the 160 hp 172R sells for $274,900. One has to fly those only from proper air-strips.. Emergency landings of course have seen these small planes make landings on roadways and farms (and in-between two soft trees in an emergency, as we say in the field, sheer the wings off and hopefully stop without dying)..
    Last edited by Bob; 18th July 2018 at 17:45. Reason: typo corrections

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