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Thread: Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism.

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    Default Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism.

    .
    [ Mod-edit: The first 16 posts in the following thread began life over on the thread Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion, before I split them off into this new thread, as suggested by "A Voice from the Mountains". -- Paul. ]

    ===

    Quote Posted by Foxie Loxie (here)
    How about Sylvi(?) who has been exploring the theory that about 1,000 years have been added to our history & seems to prove it through artifacts she has found?

    Of course, I am unable to remember her name, exactly, but I think it was TargeT who first put me on to this theory. It seems quite a bit came from those middle ages monasteries!
    Yes, her work is based largely on Anatoly Fomenko's work (a Russian professor of mathematics at Moscow State University, formerly censored by the Soviets), who I've been studying directly. It's more complicated than just 1000 years of fabricated history. It's a gigantic mess.

    There are ~50 year shifts (there is a set of parallel events 50 years apart in the 5th century AD, for example), ~150 year shifts, ~300 year shifts (fairly common, includes the heart of the "dark age," ~500-800 AD), ~800 year shifts, ~1000 year shifts, and even more, when you get back into Egyptian and Sumerian history supposedly going back some 6000 years, but on closer inspection there is very little hard evidence for any of it and dating methods all have serious flaws.

    The last ice age supposedly ended 12,000 years ago, around 10,000 BC, and I don't believe that for a second either. Why? Because we have myths from all over the world describing exactly what happened. Now tell me how all of these civilizations with all of these myths were around in 10,000 BC, and how they were able to preserve all of this knowledge so uncannily for so many millennia. It doesn't fit the conventional narrative at all. I could go on and on but it's off topic, and I'll bring it back up later in much greater detail when the time is right. This is almost all the work of the Vatican in the medieval period.
    Last edited by Paul; 11th August 2018 at 02:11.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Talk about Total Control!! Write your own history!

    I suppose we'll never know all the secrets that are "buried" within The Vatican.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    As I pointed out on post 19 of this thread already, I concur with Joseph Farrell about Fomenko's missing centuries theory as akin to the 'Flat Earth' conspiracy theory. Not that Fomenko's research isn't without merit, it definitely blows holes in the Venetian Oligarchs narrative of world history.

    My reasoning for why the chronology of history is accurate, is because as its taught, it fits within the model of ascending arc vs descending arc of character development, that you'd expect to see in a cyclic universe. The dark ages follows the pattern of a waning and waxing moon in human development. If you remove those centuries and then just fancifully suggest everything was made up by the Vatican, then suddenly the whole science of systems theory falls about, the Yuga cycles can't be reconciled, and if you watched Keith Hunters presentation posted to Avalon yesterday, the accuracy of the cosmic clocks and ancient calendars get thrown out of sync, nothing can be reconciled. It becomes a mess, as Voice suggested.

    As Joseph Farrell stated though, the chronology of history is largely accurate, it's the NARRATIVE overlaid on that chronology that has been majorly tampered with.

    I'd suggest the reason why we don't have many source documents for ancient texts (before the middle ages) is not because those texts were all forged from thin air during that period – but because the texts that did exist before then, were translated AND EDITED – to fit a new narrative they were trying to create. In the copy of 'Manilius Astronomica' on my shelf for example (the 'G. P. Goold, Harvard edition'), the scholarship is actually excellent. They highlight passages and phrases that don't seem to fit within the original writing style of the text; passages and phrases that seem to have been edited in, at a later date, by a different author. The same can be said for Plato's book of Laws. There's controversy over whether Plato even wrote that book, because firstly, it was published after his death, and second, the literary style is such a departure from Plato's usual writing that people have been baffled if it was even from the mind of the same person.

    It's more likely in my opinion, that the anomalies Fomenko highlights, can be explained by a mass editing campaign, rather than full and complete forgery. Designed to edit out of history any mention of certain advanced cultures, that would have contradicted their narrative that the only advanced culture that arose on the planet, was the culture of the oligarchs. Starting in Sumer, then Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc.

    The Ancient Spooks: Part 4 (shard by Paul above) demonstrates that an Ancient culture clearly existed, and may have even been global. What I'd say about that though is if the Phoenician oligarchs had such a strong global dominance over the world (even way back in antiquity) why the need for the protocols of Zion? They would've had enough global dominance for full outright hegemony from the start, like they nearly attained today.

    UNLESS – and this is where Robert Sepehr's previous video comes in – the Phoenicians were, at one point, the EXACT high culture that have been whitewashed from the history books. The original Phoenicians might have been an advanced culture, with high values and high morals, who were slowly usurped and taken over as the mindset of oligarchism began to gain dominance at the onset of the Kali Yuga. What passes for the narrative of history in academia then, is really just a narrowing of perspective, to focus on the history and rise of the oligarch class, while demeaning all the advanced, high cultures – that were in simultaneous co-existence during that era – labelling them as barbarians, to demean and belittle THE OPPOSITION for their plans of global dominance.

    Robert Sepehr posted a new video today on the Scythians and the tribes of Dan (makes me wonder if he reads Project Avalon for inspiration, as he's touched on several points pertinent to this thread)

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    As I pointed out on post 19 of this thread already, I concur with Joseph Farrell about Fomenko's missing centuries theory as akin to the 'Flat Earth' conspiracy theory. Not that Fomenko's research isn't without merit, it definitely blows holes in the Venetian Oligarchs narrative of world history.
    Just out of curiosity, how much of his material have you actually read?

    Quote My reasoning for why the chronology of history is accurate, is because as its taught, it fits within the model of ascending arc vs descending arc of character development, that you'd expect to see in a cyclic universe. The dark ages follows the pattern of a waning and waxing moon in human development. If you remove those centuries and then just fancifully suggest everything was made up by the Vatican, then suddenly the whole science of systems theory falls about, the Yuga cycles can't be reconciled, and if you watched Keith Hunters presentation posted to Avalon yesterday, the accuracy of the cosmic clocks and ancient calendars get thrown out of sync, nothing can be reconciled. It becomes a mess, as Voice suggested.
    There is still a cycle going on, but we've been in the process of rebuilding from the destruction of "Atlantis" in this interpretation. Not the collapse of the Roman Empire.

    And those cycles as literally interpreted out of the Sanskrit involve amounts of time which are astronomical:

    Quote According to one Puranic astronomical estimate, the four Yuga have the following durations:[3]

    Satya Yuga equals 1,728,000 Human years[4]
    Treta Yuga equals 1,296,000 Human years[4]
    Dvapara Yuga equals 864,000 Human years[4]
    Kali Yuga equals 432,000 Human years[4]

    Together, these four yuga constitute one Mahayuga and equal 4.32 million human years.[3] According to one version, there are 1,000 Mahayugas in one day of Brahma or 4.32 billion human years. A Mahakalpa consists of 100 years of Brahma.[3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

    I know it's Wikipedia but they give additional sources and I've read about the Yuga cycles before. I personally think there must also be some mistranslation or something going on here, just because I can't recognize those enormous amounts of time to anything meaningful for us, when we are dealing with 12,000 years max back to the last ice age even according to conventional dating.

    Quote As Joseph Farrell stated though, the chronology of history is largely accurate, it's the NARRATIVE overlaid on that chronology that has been majorly tampered with.
    This is true after around 1600 AD, when the printing press came into more widespread use in Europe and it was harder to control what was printed. Before that, you are mostly taking Catholic monks and their manuscripts for granted when it comes to the historical narratives you are familiar with, because those are the oldest surviving documents we have today.

    Quote I'd suggest the reason why we don't have many source documents for ancient texts (before the middle ages) is not because those texts were all forged from thin air during that period – but because the texts that did exist before then, were translated AND EDITED – to fit a new narrative they were trying to create. In the copy of 'Manilius Astronomica' on my shelf for example (the 'G. P. Goold, Harvard edition'), the scholarship is actually excellent. They highlight passages and phrases that don't seem to fit within the original writing style of the text; passages and phrases that seem to have been edited in, at a later date, by a different author. The same can be said for Plato's book of Laws. There's controversy over whether Plato even wrote that book, because firstly, it was published after his death, and second, the literary style is such a departure from Plato's usual writing that people have been baffled if it was even from the mind of the same person.
    It sounds like you are trying to argue that the manuscripts must be authentic because scholars acknowledge they are full of inconsistencies which they have attempted to reconcile. Is that really a good argument?

    Quote It's more likely in my opinion, that the anomalies Fomenko highlights, can be explained by a mass editing campaign, rather than full and complete forgery. Designed to edit out of history any mention of certain advanced cultures, that would have contradicted their narrative that the only advanced culture that arose on the planet, was the culture of the oligarchs. Starting in Sumer, then Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc.
    At this point I'm fairly certain that you've never actually read Fomenko at all, because he doesn't argue that they invented these narratives out of thin air. They are duplications. Thus the time shifts. When I talk about a time shift of 300 years, for example, I'm talking about something that happened in 1100-1400 AD being shifted backwards to 800-1100 AD artificially with the names changed, sometimes not even by much, and also possibly the locations changed. This can be accomplished as easily as using a source script from a foreign language and assuming that a foreign name is a completely different person.

    It's not just Fomenko who has noticed this, but the German researcher Heribert Illig, Gyula Toth from Hungary, Immanuel Velikovsky, Jean Hardouin from France, Peter James of England, Wilhelm Kammeier, Friedrich Horst, Nikolai Morozov, Uwe Topper, Hans-Joachim Zillmer, Raja Ram Mohan Roy from India, Christoph Pfister of Switzerland, Alan Wilson from Wales, and even Isaac Newton.

    All of those people have found significant chronological problems and offered revisions. Not just Fomenko. They have each found different aspects to latch onto, but they each make an independent case. And that's not even an exhaustive list of chronological revisionists.

    Quote The Ancient Spooks: Part 4 (shard by Paul above) demonstrates that an Ancient culture clearly existed, and may have even been global. What I'd say about that though is if the Phoenician oligarchs had such a strong global dominance over the world (even way back in antiquity) why the need for the protocols of Zion? They would've had enough global dominance for full outright hegemony from the start, like they nearly attained today.
    You answer your own question. The Phoenicians/Jews/merchant class never did have hegemonic control. Also no one is saying ancient cultures didn't exist. The problem is the dating.

    Quote UNLESS – and this is where Robert Sepehr's previous video comes in – the Phoenicians were, at one point, the EXACT high culture that have been whitewashed from the history books. The original Phoenicians might have been an advanced culture, with high values and high morals, who were slowly usurped and taken over as the mindset of oligarchism began to gain dominance at the onset of the Kali Yuga.
    By the conventional dating that you claim to support, the Kali Yuga began in 3100 BC. That is way before the Phoenicians even existed according to this same conventional chronology.

    According to conventional chronology, the Phoenicians were only active between around 1500 to 300 BC, and they weren't using an alphabet until around 1000 BC. You're talking about them being usurped two millennia before they even existed, by this version of events.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    I did state where my knowledge of fomenko comes from in post 19, as linked to. I'm trusting Farrells assessment based on his library like knowledge of history. And the Yuga cycle I talk of is the same as the precessional cycle. 26,000 years. So my interpretation is that the original Phoenician, before it was usurped by the oligarch class, is the same remnant of the survivors of Atlantis that Silvia Ivanova talks about in her New Age videos.

    If the chronology has been falsified, why do the dates in Keith Hunters presentation align so well? Riddle me that one batman

    Edit: I did try and read some Fomenko directly, but his narrative was such a contrived and banal superimposition of conflicting data points that I didn’t see the value in reading further (he was talking about the origins of Britain, and how Brutus and Caesar were the same person, or something like that) he sounded like a true mathematician, in the vein that Tesla described, “Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.”

    Edit 2: Keith Hunter points out in his presentation that the high culture of the ancients measured their calendars in terms of days, not years. Maybe try dividing those astronomical numbers of the Yuga ages by 360, see if that seems more reasonable within the timeframe of a precessional cycle.
    Last edited by Jayke; 10th August 2018 at 12:23.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    And if there is anything to what Edgar Cayce was saying, he painted a picture of a corrupt and evil faction at the end of the Atlantean era, which caused that cataclysm and was then dispersed around the world along with those who weren't on board with what they were doing. I don't think we can actually prove anything like that right now but I also wouldn't be surprised if that were the real ultimate root of today's international bankers and merchants, royal bloodlines and all the rest.
    In my opinion, 100% correct. Negative karma moves through time like a sine wave, always returning until its flattened out, expunged (by positive). Cayce called the group from Atlantis 'the Sons of Belial', who stood in opposition to the Law of One. They have surfaced again in our civilization as 'Luciferians'. Their practices are very much the same, as are their goals. And it goes way beyond that, to secret factions hiding secret knowledge and technology (the SSP).

    I don't want to go off on another Atlantis rant and derail the thread! But everything that's happened before will happen again. It's happening NOW!
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Paul, if you want to break some of these posts off into a thread called "Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism," I can start posting a lot of this kind of information there instead of cluttering up this thread with it.

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    I did state where my knowledge of fomenko comes from in post 19, as linked to. I'm trusting Farrells assessment based on his library like knowledge of history.
    Don't be too quick to build your altar in his image. I was once a moderator on the TOT forum and tried to get Joseph to do an interview with us. He briefly glanced at the forum and somehow came to the completely erroneous conclusion that we were a religious forum and wanted to interview him about theology/patristics, which he studied at Oxford, and said that he had no interest and was too busy to discuss religion. I have no clue what he could have even seen on the forum to lead him to that conclusion. So the guy may do good research when he works on something at length, but at a glance, he can be as ignorant as any of us.

    And Isaac Newton? He was a chronological revisionist at the same time that Jesuits were collating history into its modern narrative for the first time. His publication with his arguments on revising the chronology of ancient history was the last thing he ever published, as he died shortly thereafter. In fact he didn't want to publish it at all, but his hand was forced when someone in France got a hold of his notes and published them without his permission. So he went into damage control mode.

    All of this is argument from authority anyway (a logical fallacy), but if that's where you're going to make a comfortable bed for yourself, I'm still going to try to turn you out of it.

    Fomenko himself is no slouch, but a longstanding tenured professor of mathematics, a world-famous mathematician even, at Moscow State University. You can look up his achievements in the field of mathematics and see that is he taken very seriously in his field.

    Then there's Garry Kasparov, the world-famous chess grandmaster with an IQ around 185-190, who is a supporter of Fomenko's and is known for arguing the concept of "phantom time" using historical European population estimates. Newton is also suspected to have had a very high IQ, though his chronological revisionism focused upon the ancient Greek era. Obviously he was a great mathematician as well. As a rule, the early chronologers were all mathematicians, not historians.

    Quote And the Yuga cycle I talk of is the same as the precessional cycle. 26,000 years. So my interpretation is that the original Phoenician, before it was usurped by the oligarch class, is the same remnant of the survivors of Atlantis that Silvia Ivanova talks about in her New Age videos.
    Then you still cannot be possibly talking about conventional chronology. "Atlantis" is a term defined by Plato and he gives us a time frame of around 10,000 BC for its sinking. Do you think Phoenicians were around in 10,000 BC, according to the conventional chronology? This time you're off by much more. This time you're off by 8500 years from the conventional chronology's dating of the Phoenicians even coming into existence.

    And Sylvie's videos rely almost exclusively on Fomenko's research when she cites any research at all. I've interviewed her personally. Why do you watch her videos and take her seriously when you reject the underlying research behind them?

    Quote If the chronology has been falsified, why do the dates in Keith Hunters presentation align so well? Riddle me that one batman
    Reminds me of Catholics during the Renaissance. "If the world is really spinning rapidly, why aren't there hurricane-force winds constantly plaguing us and blowing down our buildings?" Maybe it's because your theories aren't as solid as you think they are?

    If you are throwing around the idea of Phoenicians being around in 10,000 BC, then I would submit that as pretty good evidence that you don't know as much about the conventional chronology of history as you might think you do, yugas or no yugas.

    Quote Edit: I did try and read some Fomenko directly, but his narrative was such a contrived and banal superimposition of conflicting data points that I didn’t see the value in reading further (he was talking about the origins of Britain, and how Brutus and Caesar were the same person, or something like that) he sounded like a true mathematician, in the vein that Tesla described, “Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.”
    I don't see any actual arguments here, but a bunch of vague feelings gesturing at something that feelings just don't quite allow you to articulate.

    Quote Edit 2: Keith Hunter points out in his presentation that the high culture of the ancients measured their calendars in terms of days, not years. Maybe try dividing those astronomical numbers of the Yuga ages by 360, see if that seems more reasonable within the timeframe of a precessional cycle.
    Yes, I'm familiar with the idea of people trying to mathematically manipulate the numbers associated with the yuga cycles in order to try force them into some framework that makes more sense. That's evidence of there being serious problems with the theory which remain unresolved. And yet you are still extremely confident about it?


    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    In my opinion, 100% correct. Negative karma moves through time like a sine wave, always returning until its flattened out, expunged (by positive). Cayce called the group from Atlantis 'the Sons of Belial', who stood in opposition to the Law of One. They have surfaced again in our civilization as 'Luciferians'. Their practices are very much the same, as are their goals. And it goes way beyond that, to secret factions hiding secret knowledge and technology (the SSP).
    And there is additional evidence of chronology being wrong even in this, because "Belial" is a very specific term from Judaism for the devil, and it is completely anachronistic to attribute such specific terminology to a time before 10,000 BC. If Cayce were simply using familiar modern language he could have said "Sons of the Devil," but no, he used the very specific early Hebrew term "Belial," which suggests a direct connection between pre-catastrophe "Atlantis" and recorded history.

    I am also arguing that we have recorded history of the catastrophe, and what came both before and after it, from many cultures all over the world. But this cannot possibly be reconciled with the idea that this catastrophe occurred around 10,000 BC, while also preserving our traditional historical chronology intact. One of these ideas has to be wrong. Either the conventional dating of things is wrong, or the idea that we still have surviving accounts of the global flood/impact are wrong. And I see lots of myths all over the world with similar flood stories, so I don't think that is the problem.

    I realize you were not talking about chronology, Star Mariner, but all of this just goes to show that evidence of giant chronological errors are staring us all in the face, but because of conditioning and the comfort of familiar beliefs, we too often refuse to see it.

    And if I am not mistaken, Cayce, in his channelings, often said things like "in your understanding of time." Sounds like the channeled entity's understanding of time was quite different, doesn't it? I'm not sure that was ever adequately explained, though Cayce also said that the next great human awakening would come out of Russia. And that just happens to be where Fomenko is from too.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 10th August 2018 at 19:44.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Then you still cannot be possibly talking about conventional chronology. "Atlantis" is a term defined by Plato and he gives us a time frame of around 10,000 BC for its sinking. Do you think Phoenicians were around in 10,000 BC, according to the conventional chronology? This time you're off by much more. This time you're off by 8500 years from the conventional chronology's dating of the Phoenicians even coming into existence.
    Actually, I think Phoenicians may have been around since 20,000BC, if not longer. If you watch the presentation by Tim and Lee Hooker on the pre-Sumerian, Vedic culture of Aratta (at least it may have been in the video, it may also have been in the book translated by them written by Dr Yuri Shilov, as linked to in post 19), the Vedic people burnt their villages to the ground every 70 years or so, moved camp several miles and began building again from scratch. This could be where the idea of the Phoenix comes from—being reborn from the fiery ashes—which could be where the term Phoenician originated, only for it to be usurped at a later date by the oligarchs to give them a sense of prestige.

    What is it with you and your logical fallacy of appealing to the authority of IQ scores you shouldn’t really bring up the notion of logical fallacies when your rebuttals are riddled with them. I’ve been graciously ignoring them so far because to call you out on all of them would be extremely tedious and counterproductive. One look at the distortions of rhetoric created by your cognitive biases and I can see why Farrell felt he had better things to do , which reminds me, Farrells new book ‘Microcosm and Medium’ has arrived today, good times

    Paul, if you do break up the thread, please don’t transfer my responses, I’ve no more interest in Fomenko or being a part of that discussion, thankyou.
    Last edited by Jayke; 10th August 2018 at 20:10.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Actually, I think Phoenicians May have been around since 20,000BC, if not longer. If you watch the presentation by Tim and Lee Hooker on the pre-Sumerian, Vedic culture of Aratta (at least it may have been in the video, it may also have been in the book translated by them written by Dr Yuri Shilov, as linked to in post 19), the Vedic people burnt their villages to the ground every 70 years or so, moved camp several miles and began building again from scratch. This could be where the idea of the Phoenix comes from—being reborn from the fiery ashes—which could be where the term Phoenician originated, only for it to be usurped at a later date by the oligarchs to give them a sense of prestige.
    You do realize that that would be a more radical alteration of chronology than anything Fomenko has ever purported, right?

    Do you have any archaeological evidence for 20,000 years of continuous occupation of any historical site? Think about what we've managed to do just in the last 500 years. Now try to comprehend a span of time 40 times greater than that. That's what you're proposing. And you think they just kept riding around in wooden boats, in small tribal populations all that time? Really?

    Quote What is it with you and your logical fallacy of appealing to the authority of IQ scores you shouldn’t really bring up the notion of logical fallacies when your rebuttals are riddled with them.
    You're the one who decided to make your argument based on authority, by appealing to Dr. Farrell's ill-informed opinion as if that is an actual argument. Like I said, if argument from authority is where you want to make your case, I can make fallacious arguments too.

    Quote I’ve been graciously ignoring them so far
    You ignored most of the information in my post above in fact, and took the easy out by criticizing an argument which I even just admitted to you in my previous post was a fallacy, and which I told you I was only making because you were making an equivalent argument as if that is where you were getting your comfort from.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote I can make fallacious arguments too.
    They do seem to be the only kind of argument you’re any good at

    Did you watch the video on Aratta yet? I would like to hear your thoughts on that culture if you have the time.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Quote I can make fallacious arguments too.
    They do seem to be the only kind of argument you’re any good at
    No, just the only kind that you have the courage to respond to directly. And what do you call it when you put your faith in Farrell's opinions? A logical argument?

    Quote Did you watch the video on Aratta yet? I would like to hear your thoughts on that culture if you have the time.
    I'm familiar with the culture and the archaeology but the problem always come back to the dating. If you want to talk about carbon-14 that's another issue. If we had a split thread to discuss it, I would love to talk about carbon-14 dating.

    Skimming through the presentation, I can see right off the bat that there's all kinds of anachronistic arguments being made. He's jumping from 3000 BC to 22,000 BC in the same sentence as easily as if he's talking about of a couple of generations.

    How many hundreds of years would you expect people to be riding around on primitive boats and making scratches on rocks before they start becoming more sophisticated? Why would they be scratching on rocks and clay tablets for nearly 20,000 years straight (remembering that Plato placed the fall of Atlantis around 10,000 BC -- another contradiction), and then suddenly turn around in the last 1000 years or so and we go to the Moon?

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Actually, the first Buddha was recorded in the Siberian Bon shaman tradition at 18,000BC.

    uzn did a thread on the archeology of ancient Russia last year, which adds a lot of weight to Tim and Lee Hookers Aratta presentation.

    If by “making scratches on rocks”, you mean ‘building and carving ornate pyramid temples all over the globe by 15,000BC’, then yeah sure, they were scratching and carving rocks in the developmental period of 3000 years since the time of the first Buddha.
    Last edited by Jayke; 10th August 2018 at 20:41.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    Actually, the first Buddha was recorded in the Siberian Bon shaman tradition at 18,000BC.
    Which is also rejected by modern chronologists. I'm curious here. Do you even have a consistent frame of reference for historical chronology? Or are you just shifting between different sources and traditions arbitrarily?

    I just did this quick timeline to help you visualize what you are talking about.



    22,000 BC until Middle Eastern archaeological sites begin to appear around 6,000 BC is a gap of 16,000 years without any attested history or archaeology according to the conventional chronology. That means according to mainstream academic opinion on chronology, though you've made it clear that you aren't in that camp either. I'm not sure that you even know where you fall yet on this issue.

    Your video above is placing ancient rock scratchings prior to the fall of Atlantis, and comparing them to Sumerian Cuneiform made thousands of years after Atlantis fell/the end of the Ice Age. None of this makes any sense in any chronology I'm aware of. It's self-contradictory.

    And this is being very generous to the Middle East, because Sumerian records don't even go back to their origin around 4,000 BC, and even when they do later begin, they give us very little to go on, and are generally regarded by historians as mythological. Those texts only really begin to appear around the same time that the Phoenicians are said to appear.

    That's not to say that I believe the early texts were just mythology, but neither do I believe that Sumeria was founded some 6,000 years ago. All of this has occurred much more recently. The agenda of pushing things deeper and deeper into antiquity, despite there being absolutely no evidence to justify such huge spans of time, is a psychological trick to separate us from our past, specifically a terrible cataclysm from which we have had to build ourselves back up out of an artificially-induced stone age.

    Quote If by “making scratches on rocks”, you mean ‘building and carving ornate pyramid temples all over the globe by 15,000BC’,
    The part of the presentation I was watching above was this guy pointing to rock scratchings and comparing them to clay tablets with Sumerian Cuneiform. Are you attributing these extremely advanced works of architecture to the same people who this guy is talking about matching the scratchings on stone and clay in the video above?

    Quote then yeah sure, they were scratching and carving rocks in the developmental period of 3000 years since the time of the first Buddha.
    I thought you just said he was 20,000 years ago according to Siberian tradition? Which is it?

    I could point out that Buddhism has nothing to do with traditional Siberian religious practices but I don't guess there would be any point in that either.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    If you really want to bake your noodle, Voice, you should watch some presentations by Edmund Marriage - Learning from History.


    I can see the steam coming out of your ears already, Voice: ”does not compute, does not compute”

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    I can see the steam coming out of your ears already, Voice: ”does not compute, does not compute”
    Why would you think that? You don't understand what I believe, and don't seem clear even as to what you yourself believe, at least as far as chronology goes. Projection?

    You seem to think I am denying physical artifacts when I have repeatedly said I am only challenging the conventional dating of them. And you watch Sylvie's videos and apparently enjoy them, which confuses what exactly you are trying to argue even more.

    Quote We have also featured the O’Brien’s earliest groundbreaking discoveries An Integrated Astronomical Complex – Line A Loxodrome - in East Anglia and Megalithic Odyssey featuring the Bodmin Moor Astronomical Complex of Stone Circles and Giant Cairns, both revealing great sophistication in mathematics, surveying and astronomy, together with the use of the most ancient world-wide standard unit of measure left by the Shining Ones, proving detailed knowledge of the earths dimensions around 2,700BC, and facilitating the authors successful search for the Master Builders of an earlier civilisation recorded by the Sumerians, who arrived in Southern Lebanon around 9,500 BC.
    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/

    This is the guy's foundation. I decided to go read summaries of his material instead of listening to the 2 hours of material you just casually dump on me in post after post, as if I have that kind of time for you when you don't even bother to respond to 90% of what I post.

    The 9500 BC date is based on the carbon dating of archaeological sites around Jericho. None of this is new to me.


    Let's start over here...

    I still think Paul (or another moderator, but it's Paul's thread) should move these replies to a new thread about "Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism."

    Why don't you make a bullet point list of items which you are conveying to me, which you think I am rejecting? That way we can take things point-by-point in a very clear way and won't have to keep talking past each other.

    What precisely are you trying to say?
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 10th August 2018 at 22:53.

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    I’ve said everything I care to say. My thoughts have been expressed concisely and clearly enough for anyone that cares to listen. My words were chosen with care and precision. I’ll wait until the thread gets back on topic before re-engaging with the discussion.

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    Default Re: Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism.

    That was quite interesting stuff, from both of you.

    I'm not going to attempt to wade into huge splurges of written stuff. It's not my thing, normally.

    The one thing that lingers for me, from the previous posts is the conflict between the fall of Atlantis and the age of the site in Ukraine. While reading the argument, I thought, hey, they could easily both be as right as each other.

    As in the current world, why couldn't there have been different groups doing their own things in different parts of the globe. Even though there is a global 'civilization' in 2018 there are lots of groups around the world who just keep on doing their own thing. America could fall into dust and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to several other groups. Future archaeologists would argue about the contradictions in the evidence and the 'dates' and if they believed that America was a sole world civilisation they'd fight like cats and dogs about the discovery of the other groups in the same period.

    But, I'm off topic if this thread is about Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism. I'm all for revising the clap trap we've been force fed, but I like far simpler explanations and far quicker results than scholarly pissing contests. The University libraries around the world are full of all that, and look how well that's served the human race so far.
    Last edited by norman; 11th August 2018 at 05:15.
    .................................................. my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    Since this thread has now been broken off from the original thread, I can point out Voices fallacies without derailing the other thread. I’ll leave Voices full quote intact but highlight my edits/rebuttals in red.

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote Posted by Jayke (here)
    As I pointed out on post 19 of this thread already, I concur with Joseph Farrell about Fomenko's missing centuries theory as akin to the 'Flat Earth' conspiracy theory. Not that Fomenko's research isn't without merit, it definitely blows holes in the Venetian Oligarchs narrative of world history.
    Just out of curiosity, how much of his material have you actually read?

    Quote My reasoning for why the chronology of history is accurate, is because as its taught, it fits within the model of ascending arc vs descending arc of character development, that you'd expect to see in a cyclic universe. The dark ages follows the pattern of a waning and waxing moon in human development. If you remove those centuries and then just fancifully suggest everything was made up by the Vatican, then suddenly the whole science of systems theory falls about, the Yuga cycles can't be reconciled, and if you watched Keith Hunters presentation posted to Avalon yesterday, the accuracy of the cosmic clocks and ancient calendars get thrown out of sync, nothing can be reconciled. It becomes a mess, as Voice suggested.
    There is still a cycle going on, but we've been in the process of rebuilding from the destruction of "Atlantis" in this interpretation. Not the collapse of the Roman Empire. Jaykes edit: did I mention the collapse of the Roman Empire? or did you just assume that’s what I was referring to? I was referring to the whole period from the collapse of Aratta to the fall of Rome, through the dark ages and then back up to where we are now.

    And those cycles as literally interpreted out of the Sanskrit involve amounts of time which are astronomical:

    Quote According to one Puranic astronomical estimate, the four Yuga have the following durations:[3]

    Satya Yuga equals 1,728,000 Human years[4]
    Treta Yuga equals 1,296,000 Human years[4]
    Dvapara Yuga equals 864,000 Human years[4]
    Kali Yuga equals 432,000 Human years[4]

    Together, these four yuga constitute one Mahayuga and equal 4.32 million human years.[3] According to one version, there are 1,000 Mahayugas in one day of Brahma or 4.32 billion human years. A Mahakalpa consists of 100 years of Brahma.[3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

    I know it's Wikipedia but they give additional sources and I've read about the Yuga cycles before. I personally think there must also be some mistranslation or something going on here, just because I can't recognize those enormous amounts of time to anything meaningful for us, when we are dealing with 12,000 years max back to the last ice age even according to conventional dating.

    Quote As Joseph Farrell stated though, the chronology of history is largely accurate, it's the NARRATIVE overlaid on that chronology that has been majorly tampered with.
    This is true after around 1600 AD, when the printing press came into more widespread use in Europe and it was harder to control what was printed. Before that, you are mostly taking Catholic monks and their manuscripts for granted when it comes to the historical narratives you are familiar with, because those are the oldest surviving documents we have today.

    Quote I'd suggest the reason why we don't have many source documents for ancient texts (before the middle ages) is not because those texts were all forged from thin air during that period – but because the texts that did exist before then, were translated AND EDITED – to fit a new narrative they were trying to create. In the copy of 'Manilius Astronomica' on my shelf for example (the 'G. P. Goold, Harvard edition'), the scholarship is actually excellent. They highlight passages and phrases that don't seem to fit within the original writing style of the text; passages and phrases that seem to have been edited in, at a later date, by a different author. The same can be said for Plato's book of Laws. There's controversy over whether Plato even wrote that book, because firstly, it was published after his death, and second, the literary style is such a departure from Plato's usual writing that people have been baffled if it was even from the mind of the same person.
    It sounds like you are trying to argue that the manuscripts must be authentic because scholars acknowledge they are full of inconsistencies which they have attempted to reconcile. Is that really a good argument? Jaykes edit: whenever you put “it sounds like” at the start of a conclusion, it demonstrates you’re filtering what I’ve said through your own biases and you’re trying to superimpose what you imagine I’ve said over a pre-existing assumption, which leads to distortion (which isn’t inherently wrong, it’s how we make sense of things, but to use that distortion as a rebuttal?) The end result is the logical fallacy of a strawman argument, which makes your rebuttal Redundant!

    Quote It's more likely in my opinion, that the anomalies Fomenko highlights, can be explained by a mass editing campaign, rather than full and complete forgery. Designed to edit out of history any mention of certain advanced cultures, that would have contradicted their narrative that the only advanced culture that arose on the planet, was the culture of the oligarchs. Starting in Sumer, then Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc.
    At this point I'm fairly certain that you've never actually read Fomenko at all, because he doesn't argue that they invented these narratives out of thin air. They are duplications. Thus the time shifts. When I talk about a time shift of 300 years, for example, I'm talking about something that happened in 1100-1400 AD being shifted backwards to 800-1100 AD artificially with the names changed, sometimes not even by much, and also possibly the locations changed. This can be accomplished as easily as using a source script from a foreign language and assuming that a foreign name is a completely different person. Jaykes edit: would you care to back up these claims with specific examples?

    It's not just Fomenko who has noticed this, but the German researcher Heribert Illig, Gyula Toth from Hungary, Immanuel Velikovsky, Jean Hardouin from France, Peter James of England, Wilhelm Kammeier, Friedrich Horst, Nikolai Morozov, Uwe Topper, Hans-Joachim Zillmer, Raja Ram Mohan Roy from India, Christoph Pfister of Switzerland, Alan Wilson from Wales, and even Isaac Newton.

    All of those people have found significant chronological problems and offered revisions. Not just Fomenko. They have each found different aspects to latch onto, but they each make an independent case. And that's not even an exhaustive list of chronological revisionists. Jaykes edit: again, specific examples help move the discussion along.

    Quote The Ancient Spooks: Part 4 (shard by Paul above) demonstrates that an Ancient culture clearly existed, and may have even been global. What I'd say about that though is if the Phoenician oligarchs had such a strong global dominance over the world (even way back in antiquity) why the need for the protocols of Zion? They would've had enough global dominance for full outright hegemony from the start, like they nearly attained today.
    You answer your own question. The Phoenicians/Jews/merchant class never did have hegemonic control. Also no one is saying ancient cultures didn't exist. The problem is the dating. Jaykes edit: I was hypothesising a solution to a paradox, which is answering a rhetorical question, while leaving the door open to other possibilities. But to conclude, if they never had hegemonic control, why not? What other opposing forces were preventing them from having that control? The point I was making is that it’s the opposition to that hegemonic control that have been whitewashed from the historical record.

    Quote UNLESS – and this is where Robert Sepehr's previous video comes in – the Phoenicians were, at one point, the EXACT high culture that have been whitewashed from the history books. The original Phoenicians might have been an advanced culture, with high values and high morals, who were slowly usurped and taken over as the mindset of oligarchism began to gain dominance at the onset of the Kali Yuga.
    By the conventional dating that you claim to support, the Kali Yuga began in 3100 BC. That is way before the Phoenicians even existed according to this same conventional chronology. Jaykes edit: strawman! I never claimed any conventional dating applied to the yuga cycles, if you’d asked I would’ve told you my dating for that and where I got those datings from. Redundant!

    According to conventional chronology, the Phoenicians were only active between around 1500 to 300 BC, and they weren't using an alphabet until around 1000 BC. You're talking about them being usurped two millennia before they even existed, by this version of events. Jaykes edit: from my previous answer, it should’ve been clear that I don’t place much weight on what we’re conventionally taught about the Phoenicians, as this would’ve been one of the areas that have been whitewashed from history and would ‘conventionally’ been tampered with. Again, Strawman argument! Redundant!
    The reason I don’t respond to 90% of what you’re saying, Voice, is because you’re not arguing any points I’ve made, you’re arguing against your own fallacious strawman interjections of things you imagine I’ve said. The rest of your replies follow the same pattern, which is why I won’t bother rebutting all your other posts.

    If you want to continue this discussion, how about we strive to remove all ad-hominem insinuations and focus purely on the facts that we can build a new chronology around?

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    Default Re: Banksters of Babylon, Merchants of Venice, and Elders of Zion

    I have enjoyed Edward Marriage's videos, in fact it was he who first made me start questioning the Christian story we have all been fed down through the ages. So, if we have been lied to about that....I guess we have to question ANY human relating of the events of the Past?!

    I must say I was quite impressed with Keith M. Hunter's being able to link catastrophes here on Earth with certain alignments of the heavenly bodies in our near neighborhood. The "myths" about the past seem to convey what was going on in the heavens. Makes me think of the video, "Remembering The End of The World" by Talbot.

    I'll look forward to any chronology you guys can come up with! It's quite clear you are both well studied & highly intelligent & I greatly enjoy reading your posts!!

    Just wondering what your opinions are on the findings of Klaus Dona & how he infers a global culture with a specific type of writing we do not understand that he has found evidence of?

    Would you say the huge rock structures found around that world are from pre-Noah's Flood. Billy recently put up a very interesting picture of what looks like a mountain, but when viewed closely shows it was enormous weathered figure carvings!

    I wonder if anyone has ever taken ALL the writings from ancient cultures & pieced together a mosaic of what they present? Or do we have to assume that any writings we find must inherently embody an "agenda", as does our own recent recordings of history?

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    Default Re: Phantom Time and Chronological Revisionism.

    How to double time into overtime

    Gunnar Heinsohn: Enigmas of 3000 to 300 BC

    by malagabay Posted on July 30, 2018



    Did the Romans nostrify the history of the Etruscans to prolong their own chronology?

    Tim Cullen collected many observations to support such an assumption.
    The two maps below also show indisputable similarities between the political constellations in the Phoenician period of the Etruscans (9th-6th c.), and in the Punic period of the Romans (6th-3rd c.).




    Indeed, nowhere can one find Punic (centered on Carthage) or Roman cities (in Italy) with building layers from the 6th-3rd century BC that are super-imposed upon building layers of Phoenician (centered on Tyre) or Etruscan cities from the 9th-6th century BC.

    The strata found in the ground are – roughly speaking – dated either 9th-6th or 6th-3rd century.

    There is, per individual site, always only a single package of strata to fill one but never two consecutive periods.

    Archaeologists don’t deny it.

    They explain it by saying:
    “Etruscan cities have generally been built over from the Romans onwards, and houses have left little trace“
    (Etruscan Architecture 2018).
    Their firm belief in our textbook chronology forbids them to imagine the simultaneity of both histories.

    Two different narratives about one and the same history were, indeed, transformed into two consecutive histories.

    This did not disturb anyone until archaeology began and hard evidence could only be found for one of the two periods.

    The similarity of the, e.g., portrait styles (eyes, hair, beards etc.) in the 9th/8th century and in the 5th/4th century were then interpreted as a consciously planned renaissance.

    However, such an interpretation cannot replace the missing strata and residential quarters in the ground.

    Continue reading the article in PDF format by clicking here


    Related:
    Gunnar Heinsohn: Exodus Posted on August 6, 2018
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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