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Thread: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    I feel this topic has been lightly touched on here over in the semi-recent past.

    I have had come things happen in my personal life that have brought this more to the for-front and believe it is a serious problem that is currently, and mostly silently occurring.






    I'm not sure what the answer is, but it certainly isn't "the patriarchy"... I think it's a further shattering of society that is extremely prevalent in western culture.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    There seem to be a taboo created around the differences between masculinity and femininity ,and it goes way back to the seventies ,when i was a kid and feminism was on the rise here in the netherlands. I learned young to hide my 'masculine' tendencies till the point i was trying to act as an androgyn in my teens,to hide my heterosexual desires.This happened to a whole generation ,we had the androgynic pop and moviestars as our role models.Suggesting there were intrinsical differerences between men and women was old fashioned:it s all just cultural conditioning was the enlightened opinion those days.

    This has created a growing frustration and confusion about our roles as males in a increasing anti- hetero and anti- maculine society.
    I had this summer an experience when i was 10 days in Spain,Granada.I am used to dance and flirt with the ladies ,thats just part of the delicious Andalucian culture.In the 10 days i was there i' ve been 3 times violently threatened by lesbian girls telling me to f...off and they were quikly backed by a a little crowd,pretty scary.Its getting extreme and absurd and i wonder for how long this will continue to go on...
    On the positive side, i can see that there is more and more a search and slowly a reappreciation for the value of men who are allowing themselves to be-consciously- masculine and women who allow themselves to be-consciously- feminine.Probably its all about becoming conscious about these qualities for our personal lives and as as a collective,as opposed to the unconcious ,conditioned behavior of men who abuse(d) women (and men) through the power of their masculinity.Its silly to blame masculinity for the abuse of power,wich is always the real cause of the problem.Its like blaming the gasoline for a car accident,because it made the car drive in the first place...

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    I definitely think this is a part of out social programming. Our current social climate is based on victim hood and identity politics. I have watched the demonization of the white male for a long time and now see heterosexual black males and white male homosexuals are slowing being added to "the list". I hate to see males falling into this trap, but I do understand that buying into it might make life easier. This is a witch hunt based on the behaviors of generations long gone. What if each of us were to be held accountable for the behavior of our ancestors? We would all be out. This is the a time where emotionalism reigns and reason, logic and common sense are out the window for many. What better way to destabilize the culture than go after the males.

    I spend a lot of time watching the natural world. The different genders of each species have specific jobs in raising offspring. There is a distinct difference in each gender for most species. There is a reason for this. There is a duality in this world, a Yin/Yang , if you will. We deny this at our own peril. Human's have come to feel they are separate from nature and can decide their own fate. How is that working out?
    Last edited by peterpam; 18th August 2018 at 14:01.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    I'll quote this extract from Robert Pirsig's masterwork of inspiration and genius, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. He's talking about the concept of Areté, which Pirsig (in one word) equates to 'Quality', but is also defined here as
    • ARETÉ (’αρετη)—in ancient Greek a term describing a maximum of ability and potency for action: a man’s effectiveness and skill in goodness.
    Here's Pirsig's description. I've genuinely never forgotten it, and I found it again in an instant. It's about what a man should be.

    The hero of the Odyssey is a great fighter, a wily schemer, a ready speaker, a man of stout heart and broad wisdom who knows that he must endure without too much complaining what the gods send; and he can both build and sail a boat, drive a furrow as straight as anyone, beat a young braggart at throwing the discus, challenge the Pheacian youth at boxing, wrestling or running; flay, skin, cut up and cook an ox, and be moved to tears by a song. He is in fact an excellent all-rounder; he has surpassing Areté.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Our societal system is not very supportive to organic masculinity.

    I feel this talk impressively nails the problem, via a tangent of philosophical discussion.


    in short:

    Responsibility and self respect are difficult to obtain as a modern man; yet so astoundingly easy when explained.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    It is my belief it all doesn´t truly matter as long as we, as man or woman, find our true connection. Without our true connection we´ll still NEED someone else to tell us how to be, but will never be satisfying. Once we pulish and clear our own conection we´ll cellebrate diversity and this type of polarized topics will vanish. PLus being aligned or conected gives you the selflove and respect, worthinees we know we are and have. Stop looking for that respect or love outside or things will never change. do look inside and do love yourself becouse....nothing else matters
    Much love
    honoring White Feather: SHIFT HAPPENED

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    My muscles aren't big enough to do justice to the masculine thing. So, in my case, masculinity was always an issue. I am a forced beta male, with fierce alpha tendencies. My method of dealing with this has been to be the one with the brains, the wise one with the good advice. It has served me well. I am well co-ordinated and possess athletic skills so that part of the masculine thing was no problem at all.

    When men start competing I might display some peacock feathers too but tend towards the sidelines. I never much liked men's way of talking about women, though. I don't like being controlled by my hormones to such an extent and have often denied my drive because I don't like being obvious. It has often confused me and caused problems. I didn't know then that women know if you like them way before you do...

    In many ways I have always found that male bravado treads a fine line between machismo and homosexuality. Sometimes it turns out to be the later.

    On the other hand there are those men who are such pure examples of masculinity that it is impossible not to be impressed and admire them, even want to be their friend - with no sexual overtones at all. One guy I knew wasn't a big man, but his masculinity oozed from every pore and women flocked to him as if drugged.

    Maybe young males might experience a softening of their masculinity because of the media and its androgynous campaign but I believe there are as many 'real' men as ever. It's in our genes.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    My muscles aren't big enough to do justice to the masculine thing. So, in my case, masculinity was always an issue. I am a forced beta male, with fierce alpha tendencies.
    Being an 'Alpha Male' has NOTHING to do with size, height, or musculature.

    Someone could be an Alpha Male in a wheelchair. (Look at some disabled sportsmen, and they clearly are.)

    It's got to do with leadership, ethics, courage, decision-making, example, attitude, responsibility, often fatherhood and what it is to be a great husband, and also (I would strongly argue) sensitivity and kindness.

    NOT about what weights you can lift.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    For all those who are interested in this important topic, here's a companion thread:

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by betoobig (here)
    Stop looking for that respect or love outside or things will never change. do look inside and do love yourself
    Loving yourself is a very healthy thing to do. But pumping men full of estrogen analogues to feminize them is not.




    Check the list of ingredients on what you're eating, fellas.

    Soy is in everything from salad dressing to ketchup, to frozen food. All over the damned place.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    I never eat soy, green beans or corn. Many plastics and some types of herbicides and pesticides contain analogues to estrogen and testosterone.

    And frankenfood is just nasty and unhealthy.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    My muscles aren't big enough to do justice to the masculine thing. So, in my case, masculinity was always an issue. I am a forced beta male, with fierce alpha tendencies.
    Being an 'Alpha Male' has NOTHING to do with size, height, or musculature.

    Someone could be an Alpha Male in a wheelchair. (Look at some disabled sportsmen, and they clearly are.)

    It's got to do with leadership, ethics, courage, decision-making, example, attitude, responsibility, often fatherhood and what it is to be a great husband, and also (I would strongly argue) sensitivity and kindness.

    NOT about what weights you can lift.
    It might be as you say and I will look at the links. Here is my current take on the issue. The best way to describe it is to recount a typical encounter with what I term an alpha male. Within first five minutes of meeting in a formal social setting. Guy asks what I "do". I tell him. Next he asks how much is my credit score. No idea. Next he tells me of his female conquests. Then goes on to fights where he inflicted major damage on his opponent. Then he compares his biceps to mine. Then after much taunting, coerces me to an arm wrestling match, which of course he wins. From then on I'm his bitch in his mind. It will now take me years to correct his thoughts, if I even bother to show him I am way above his station - even without large muscles.

    Sometimes out of frustration I have called out such men and challenged them to a fight, since they are so tuff. Thing about large men, they are slow and often have poor balance - and they like to charge like a mad bull. I have never lost such a fight...

    Now I will look at the links. Thanks
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 23rd August 2018 at 13:00.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    My muscles aren't big enough to do justice to the masculine thing. So, in my case, masculinity was always an issue. I am a forced beta male, with fierce alpha tendencies.
    Being an 'Alpha Male' has NOTHING to do with size, height, or musculature.

    Someone could be an Alpha Male in a wheelchair. (Look at some disabled sportsmen, and they clearly are.)

    It's got to do with leadership, ethics, courage, decision-making, example, attitude, responsibility, often fatherhood and what it is to be a great husband, and also (I would strongly argue) sensitivity and kindness.

    NOT about what weights you can lift.
    It might be as you say and I will look at the links. Here is my current take on the issue. The best way to describe it is to recount a typical encounter with what I term an alpha male. Within first five minutes of meeting in a formal social setting. Guy asks what I "do". I tell him. Next he asks how much is my credit score. No idea. Next he tells me of his female conquests. Then goes on to fights where he inflicted major damage on his opponent. Then he compares his biceps to mine. Then after much taunting, coerces me to an arm wrestling match, which of course he wins. From then on I'm his bitch in his mind. It will now take me years to correct his thoughts, if I even bother to show him I am way above his station - even without large muscles.
    You have a right to think as you wish, Ernie, but your Alpha male sounds a little cartoonish to me. I see quite a few Alpha males in my rural community. My impression is that they work hard, are not afraid to communicate, are not prone to dramatics and do what is necessary to get the job done. Of course, my opinion is as narrow as yours. Any personality type runs the spectrum of behaviors. When you are given a gift, the most important thing is what you do with it, being masculine with a take charge personality can be used for benefit or abused for detriment.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    I'm not sure what the answer is, but it certainly isn't "the patriarchy"... I think it's a further shattering of society that is extremely prevalent in western culture.
    The "Proud Boys" might not be the ideal, as they try to rediscover their manliness they are more like a work in progress.

    But I think they are going in the right direction.


    Defending Gender part 1 - Proud Boys


    SBS Dateline
    Published on Jul 6, 2018
    In part one of Dateline’s two-part gender special meet the Proud Boys, a group of men who say they are speaking up for a new class of minority: the disenfranchised young male.



    Gavin McInnes Explains What 'The Proud Boys' Are



    Andrew Says
    Published on Feb 1, 2018
    Gavin explains who and what the Proud Boys are at David Horowitz's restoration weekend. What they stand for, why, and shares a few stories about confrontations he/they have had.
    Last edited by BMJ; 23rd August 2018 at 14:41.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    I feel this topic has been lightly touched on here over in the semi-recent past.

    I have had come things happen in my personal life that have brought this more to the for-front and believe it is a serious problem that is currently, and mostly silently occurring.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but it certainly isn't "the patriarchy"... I think it's a further shattering of society that is extremely prevalent in western culture.
    I don't think I can relate as well as a male would...

    I can say though, the word masculine (and feminine too) has lost all meaning for me. It just doesn't mean anything anymore.

    Here's how that happened. A friend of mine gave me a drink a few weeks ago called "Death in the afternoon", which is named after a Hemingway book. Hemingway apparently liked his Absinthe, and my friend was using him as an example of manliness.

    I looked up Hemingway, and one of the first things I find out is that he died by suicide.

    I over reacted and blurted out this: "Killing yourself is NOT MANLY"... lucky for me, he barely noticed. Ever since that - lost all meaning.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    So much youtube here. :D

    Is there anything peer reviewed? That would be the meat and potatoes kind of thing I could sink my teeth into.

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    My muscles aren't big enough to do justice to the masculine thing. So, in my case, masculinity was always an issue. I am a forced beta male, with fierce alpha tendencies.
    Being an 'Alpha Male' has NOTHING to do with size, height, or musculature.

    Someone could be an Alpha Male in a wheelchair. (Look at some disabled sportsmen, and they clearly are.)

    It's got to do with leadership, ethics, courage, decision-making, example, attitude, responsibility, often fatherhood and what it is to be a great husband, and also (I would strongly argue) sensitivity and kindness.

    NOT about what weights you can lift.
    It might be as you say and I will look at the links. Here is my current take on the issue. The best way to describe it is to recount a typical encounter with what I term an alpha male. Within first five minutes of meeting in a formal social setting. Guy asks what I "do". I tell him. Next he asks how much is my credit score. No idea. Next he tells me of his female conquests. Then goes on to fights where he inflicted major damage on his opponent. Then he compares his biceps to mine. Then after much taunting, coerces me to an arm wrestling match, which of course he wins. From then on I'm his bitch in his mind. It will now take me years to correct his thoughts, if I even bother to show him I am way above his station - even without large muscles.
    You have a right to think as you wish, Ernie, but your Alpha male sounds a little cartoonish to me. I see quite a few Alpha males in my rural community. My impression is that they work hard, are not afraid to communicate, are not prone to dramatics and do what is necessary to get the job done. Of course, my opinion is as narrow as yours. Any personality type runs the spectrum of behaviors. When you are given a gift, the most important thing is what you do with it, being masculine with a take charge personality can be used for benefit or abused for detriment.
    I think he's just describing an asshole extrovert, not an alpha male.

    I am an Alpha, it's mostly about attitude and confidence, not size or anything else; though that does lend to the "leader" role as physical size and ability was important historically so I'm sure just that alone gives at least hints at a "leader".

    I can some times exhibit "asshole like" behaviors, I can dominate a conversation (not good behavior) with volume and eloquent rhetoric; and I know this is frustrating when on the receiving end so I try my best not to do it; I do think empathy is a large part of being a Leader (aka Alpha). The 18 years in the military I've spent so far grooms us to be decisive confident leaders.. That behavior is encouraged in the military (though there are some catches).

    I do not fight, I won't fight; ever. If I feel like I or someone around me is in danger (and it has to be very serious) I will simply defend them/myself as brutally and quickly as possible... fighting is some childish ego driven asshole move & proves nothing really as most people who fight do so with very little training and it boils down to "luck" often unless it's a lopsided confrontation.





    Quote Posted by hermit (here)
    So much youtube here. :D

    Is there anything peer reviewed? That would be the meat and potatoes kind of thing I could sink my teeth into.
    I've watched them all... I'm kinda partial to Jordan (the videos I posted at the top) due to his extremely towering intellect and articulate way of expanding on topics in the psychological realm...

    But then, I'd probably recommend any of Mr Peterson's YouTube videos... I find them all fascinating.

    You'll just have to jump in and see for your self, but I do understand the hesitancy to commit time, I often gloss over Youtube videos posted with little context (luckily this thread doesn't seem to suffer from that).
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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    Canada Avalon Member hermit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Just thinking that, given a peer reviewed study, it might shed some interesting light from academia as to the nature of the issue, possible solutions, that sort of thing. I'll go hunt.

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    Not my cup of tea, either. That's why I don't like parties much. 'They' can get away with being an *sshole, I cannot. I get triggered and I taunt such types with insulting remarks, that others find offensive. It is me who then looks like the hind end of a donkey. That is why I stated I am a forced beta.

    No. My male friends are alpha through and through, with brains, skills, compassion, and integrity. They would never pick a fight or be involved in one unless absolutely necessary, and then brutally, like you said. I don't have that killer instinct.

    I only fight when I know it is right. That's why I never loose...and I would never underestimate my opponent, I understand that a few might have real training.

    The fighting is coming up because in my mind the intimidation tactics of males makes me cringe. I don't like being involved in them. For me there is no gray area, either we are being friendly or I'm leaving. Again, I would like to stay but since I don't respond well to intimidation, if I'm threatened, I get real mean and I don't care what happens next. So for me the only smart choice is always to leave.

    In my mind that is the response of a beta male.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: The Decline of Modern Man (Masculinity)

    Are mass shootings a symptom of this issue?
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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