Power to the People - Digitally

[Ascension]

How many times have you seen polls on proposed ballot issues showing overwhelming public support only to see the issue blocked by the house or senate - the ones supposedly representing us?

There needs to be a direct mechanism for the individual voter using electronic signature in any state to sign proposals to have legislation put on a ballot, overriding the ability of the senate and house to block legislation, or eliminating the need to contact state representatives.

Why not issue an online voting identification number on every registered voter card which can be used in a state.gov page where signatures can be collected on proposed legislation, eliminating the need to collect signatures manually. The IRS already accepts electronic signature as valid.

By issuing unique numbers with pin authentication to every voter, it would be easy to eliminate double votes or invalid votes and speed the process.

Maybe we could then see action of the people, for the people and by the people using tools available to us in this digital age.

[scotslad]

blockchain technology could revolutionise voting with increased realibility, security and transparency

[norman]

My first thought is that of an instant conversion from a Republic to a Democracy.


It would have to be quite well implemented and handled, to avoid it becoming a nightmare of mob rule.

[Morbid]

Posted by scotslad (here)
blockchain technology could revolutionise voting with increased realibility, security and transparency

i second that. the tech can make "voting" so much more transparent that after migrating everyone would be scratching their heads thinking why we didnt think of this earlier..

[Ernie Nemeth]

Like I always say, we can change this thing overnight the moment we all decide to do so. It really is that easy. But that is not what the 'authorities' want, and they hold all the cards...until that night...

[Bob]

Sigh...

In August I posted in https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1243657

Watching "social democracy" in action

"The Orville" did a show (Series 1 Episode 7) that aired October 26th, 2017 called "MAJORITY RULE" - https://www.fox.com/watch/4e9ac96523...f95a4f775facb/ (apx 44 min)

As the group travels to the Stars they find out that a two man observational team of Anthropologists have disappeared on the planet that they are exploring, and no longer are responding to HQ their findings on one particular planet. That planet is wholly driven by SOCIAL MEDIA ratings. There are no official "police" forces that enforce constitutional or monarchical "laws", just a majority UP and DOWN thumbs tally count and a banning/shunning system that if one's personal scores (everyone wears a networked badge that tallies their up or down votes in society) drop below a majority determined threshold, they get put before the Group and TRIED by those watching the show.. The first few minutes of the show are so very typical of the "day to day" cellphone connected who live out their lives on the "net"..

If they are able to Convince the viewers that they are "socially worthy", they get a chance to walk free. The hosts of the show badger the one on "social media trial" to drive audience viewpoint either up or down (usually down it seems), generating a frenzy. Eventually the one without the "good social graces, read "thumbs up", ends up getting brain reconditioned - to totally become socially acceptable. The end result being a "good member of society", generally responding as if they are on very potent mind altering drugs..

The "society" portrayed is very similar to what appears to be modern 21st century earth.. That society explores what the writers thought it would be like if "majority rules", and there are no codified laws governing society. It is all about the upticks and downticks -

Eventually the crew of the Orville arrives at the planet and doesn't quite realize how severe the thumbs down votes can be - one can be "neuralized" so to speak for having a low social score.

One member of the away party is rather disrespectful (nothing we'd assume as something other than a juvenile act) of a statue honoring some key "founder" of the society. And some of the locals take out their cellphones and start video'ing away, of the "disrespectful act" of the away-team member. When the social thumbs down get high enough, the away team member is whisked away to be "tried" by social media..

That's the synopsis - It was an interesting watch. Point being the social media experiment can be a very nasty means for control of individuals, societies and countries..

If one thinks a "Democracy" via social media, digitally interacted is the way - maybe take a look at that episode in full. I'd never ever go for such a "social democracy" - reason being people are easily programmed and influenced, and the sway in the wind comes from whomever can create the best PR campaign.. People have NO clue with PR programming what is real or ethical or moral, if their basic fibre has been "given to them" thru media presentations.. So I disagree with the OP premise that "voting" by the masses is the solution. Who are those who are objective and devoid of PR programming?

OP - Maybe we could then see action of the people, for the people and by the people using tools available to us in this digital age.

[Valerie Villars]

Just the same bull**** "choices" that are not really choices because they are structured, contrived choices. When you are really free, you don't have to make those yes/no, black/white, good/evil, etc. etc. choices. Everything is possible.

[Ascension]

Posted by Bob (here)
I'd never ever go for such a "social democracy" - reason being people are easily programmed and influenced, and the sway in the wind comes from whomever can create the best PR campaign.. People have NO clue with PR programming what is real or ethical or moral, if their basic fibre has been "given to them" thru media presentations.. So I disagree with the OP premise that "voting" by the masses is the solution.

Momentary lapse in reason. Had this warm & fuzzy vision about how democracy could actually work, with birds chirping, and kids holding hands, everyone smiling...but forgot to move the idea into reality.

Sorry that I didn't catch your post from August, Bob, and I don't watch t.v.

But I can see how the premise would play out as you say. Uninformed, non-critical thinking populace, swayed by media propaganda, with votes being bought and sold.


Same crap, different way, but even more scary than what we have now.

[Bob]

I think it's great that you started this thread - it allows for discussing how we all feel about voting for "change", and having our vote count. My post in the thread here and the other one looks at are we really doing the right thing, by voting, or judging and then casting our statement, expecting that it will be heard and acted upon.

I think it's worthwhile to watch that Movie at the link.. That Orville episode portrays what IF a society really did VOTE (on everything). So the movie takes it to what could happen if that were a reality..

DeDukshyn mentioned another portrayal in that thread too..

It just seems to me as you and Val said, that we are "made to vote" ('they' insist it's our DUTY, think about that for a moment, 'they' tell US it's our DUTY...), such is a forced polarizing.. (we fall for it, our "duty" to "vote" "to judge" so we try to educate ourselves and the uninformed "eat up" the MSM programming.. react to the drama, start the social gossip across oh so much convenient media.. Other threads point out the "addiction" to the media device..

Wow eh? Down the chute, towards the end where the "light is".. ready to make our vote which "counts".. I think we need to get past it, past judgement and "voting"..

Other threads are starting to talk about polarizing; probably we'll see some more social drama crop up to have us not look at the larger perception of allness, from "it's" viewpoint (like get into allness and look back at individuality and see what that is like..). Expansion in other words instead of compression into darkness..

And of course we would be told by "media", the "groups" and it would come down to again, "judge", or "vote" one way or another.. whomever created the largest drama and put it out on their u-tube channel gets our attention.. and we vote, we feel like we "accomplished".. hmmm

Kinda makes me feel a quantum leap is needed, to get past "voting" or judgement, maybe it comes from awareness, or knowingness.. Those types of threads really would get my attention..

[Ascension]

Posted by Bob (here)
I think it's worthwhile to watch that Movie at the link.. That Orville episode portrays what IF a society really did VOTE (on everything). So the movie takes it to what could happen if that were a reality..

Intend to watch if the circling loading thing ever goes away.

Posted by Bob (here)
Wow eh? Down the chute, towards the end where the "light is".. ready to make our vote which "counts".. I think we need to get past it, past judgement and "voting"..

Hehe, is this a reference to our lack of options after we exit the body?

I do not vote. The best thing we could do as a nation is to not vote for anyone, but that will never happen. This is not say that I would never vote if some changes were made which allow a vote to actually count.

What about some kind of limited override ability by voters on legislation in progress being blocked by house/senate?

[Bob]

I do like the idea of limited over-ride, like a veto. Folks tho really need to be truly informed and I have no clue how they could take the time to actually do that. My experience from University prof's is even there, a strong bias convinces students to adopt that bias or flunk.. so the incentive is go along with the 'teacher' or loose one's college investment..

Ya, that reference to the light (as in Cattle being lead to the bolt.. the only thing they see is a quiet exit a light and then comes the bolt to the back of the head..) What was their purpose, for being consumed by the ruler/owner/keeper?

Maybe we delude ourselves we have a choice. I have mixed feelings on that, the choice that is. I have looked at "quantum re-writing" the hard wired coding.. (said discussion not for this thread tho).. That circle thingy, try doing a stop, then re-start.. Vids sometimes have that difficulty.. Stop then restart it or open in a separate browser..

[Ascension]

Thank you Bob.

The Orville episode was spot on for this topic, and also timely in light of facebook's recent testing of the idea of upvoting/downvoting posts. Peer pressure in social situations plays a large role, with people in test groups selecting the wrong answer simply because everyone else did.

Best part was the end where she made no choice at all. You can go with this, or you can go with that - weapon of choice.

[mountain_jim]

I did watch that episode in first run...

A much earlier TV exposure to this idea was from Dr Who - Vengeance on Varos (1985) I recall that then the TV device was also the voting device.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance_on_Varos

On Varos, originally a prison planet that now functions as a government system where voting is mandatory and torture and executions are televised, the Galatron Mining Corporation's swindling Mentor representative Sil is negotiating with Varos's Governor over the price of Zeiton-7 ore. Wanting a fair price for his people, and unaware that his Chief Officer is in league with Sil, the governor addresses his people to vote if they should hold out longer for a fair price. However, the popular vote is against the Governor, and as a consequence, he is subjected to exposure to potentially lethal Human Cell Disintegration Bombardment. As losing a subsequent vote will almost surely kill him, the Governor is forced to please the citizens by ordering the execution of a rebel leader named Jondar. By this time, the Doctor has managed to repair the TARDIS sufficiently and arrives at Varos's Punishment Dome close to where Jondar is to be executed.

[sunwings]

The Catalan Independence vote on October 1st 2017 used a block chain voting system to sidestep the spanish governments attempt to disrupt the voting. Although many websites were shut down the block chain system allowed people to organize more efficiently and present a more united opposition. Coordinating times, dates, and locations are important to any movement that relies on mass numbers for success. Blockchain technology can keep the lines of communication open by combating censorship of the internet.

Blockchain technology can be thought of as a tactical tool that enhances democracy. The data stored on a blockchain can be broken down and verified, mathematically, as accurate. This removes the ability to refute election results or manipulate data to support unfounded conclusions or biased history. Votes could be counted in a matter of seconds and the results could be shared across the world immediately.

https://www.ethnews.com/catalonia-and-the-blockchain

[hermit]

Remember the humble plebiscite?

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by norman (here)
My first thought is that of an instant conversion from a Republic to a Democracy.


It would have to be quite well implemented and handled, to avoid it becoming a nightmare of mob rule.

Posted by Bob (here)
Sigh...
...
Watching "social democracy" in action

"The Orville" did a show (Series 1 Episode 7) that aired October 26th, 2017 called "MAJORITY RULE" ...
...

If one thinks a "Democracy" via social media, digitally interacted is the way - maybe take a look at that episode in full. I'd never ever go for such a "social democracy" - reason being people are easily programmed and influenced, and the sway in the wind comes from whomever can create the best PR campaign.. People have NO clue with PR programming what is real or ethical or moral, if their basic fibre has been "given to them" thru media presentations.. So I disagree with the OP premise that "voting" by the masses is the solution. Who are those who are objective and devoid of PR programming?

...

I often hear this, the championing of "republic" by contrasting it with "democracy." The old, "Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch." thing.

What is a republic? A republic is a democracy where citizens elect representatives to then represent them. The big mob selects a small mob to represent them.

A republic is certainly no guarantee against mob rule, it simply makes a smaller mob. My entire lifetime, and the true US history I have been able to find buried in shallow graves, a nefarious small mob has ruled the USA. They do right now as well, and they will after the next election.

There are interesting ideological positions for and against theoretical republics and theoretical democracies.

When Ben Franklin allegedly said, "A republic, if you can keep it!", many people that love the concept of a republic believe that he meant, "If it doesn't degenerate into democracy.", but it appears that he was actually talking about degenerating into some variant of a monarchy (such as oligarchy, one name for what the US is right now.)

In the opening post, Ascension recognizes that the present electoral and governance system has produced a group, a mob, that does not represent the people at all. Ascension calls for a better system of bringing the will of the people, the zeitgeist, to governance.

Nevermind that the "2 wolves and 1 sheep" allegory is brutally flawed by dividing citizens into mutually-antagonistic foes from different species. The reality of democracy in governance would actually be felt more like:

80% of US citizens polled (a few years ago) agreed that GMO ingredients should be labeled. A very small mob, Congress - the representatives of monsanto/bayer, syngenta, ... and the military industrial complex - said no. And, clearly against the will of the people, that was codified into law. In a republic.

Being in a republic is no panacea to protect the nation from nefarious mob rule. Being in a republic where the people in power control the election system too, and every seat of high office is filled with someone acquiescing to the "Elite" agenda, isn't a solution. What's really for lunch, you ask? Wolf steaks AND lamb chops - the citizens are not sitting AT the table but rather ON the table.

The plan, their plan? Divide and conquer. Create a very very strong centralized government controlled by oligarchs/banksters/corporatists/militarists. Take regional and local and autonomous power away. Inside the government, divide and conquer further: create a system of congressional "committees" with only a handful of people in a committee, so instead of hoping that more than 50% of citizens agree to eternal war and being terrorists, only a handful on the hand-picked committee make the decision (or really, acquiesce to the deep state decision.)

I do agree that with the current level and degree of brainwashing in the US and control of the narrative through the deep state's 'department of propaganda', the mainstream media, it would actually be scary to have a 100% democracy - right now. Another part of the problem is that most people are too busy working, raising a family, surviving, to actually get in-depth enough on many domestic and almost all foreign policy matters. Plus, there is a subset of the population that are just too selfish and myopic to make fair decisions about other people and the environment. Another subset that I call the "investor class" would vote for heinous and ecocidal acts, as long as it meant their stock dividends were going up.

So, after all that, I have to say I am in favor of a republic. Back to Ascension's premise, what I would favor is a completely new electoral paradigm completely controlled by citizens. You know, where we actually pick the candidates. All candidates would be independent, and all political parties would be eliminated. No political advertising/marketing, and strictly publicly-funded elections. Candidates would have to declare in writing whether they will act autonomously in Congress, or whether they would take the will of the people that they represent to Congress. Winning candidates who had declared that they would take the will of the people they represent to Congress would be able to take advantage of digital communications, to ascertain just exactly what is the will of the people they represent, and that representative could hammer-out the differences with the people they represent, to gain a consensus. (Nothing like this has ever been done. The 'town hall' appearances are for show, PR stunts.) If this "hammering-out" process really occurred, it would protect us from emotion-driven knee-jerk reactions - the mob rule that some fear. The 'republic', then, would act as a buffer.

[Bob]

Three thumbs up Dennis very well spoken Thanks

[Ascension]

Yes, three thumbs up indeed. If only everyone could analyze, conceptualize and convey ideas the way you do Dennis, what a world this might be. You should have an opinion column somewhere with a broader audience.