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Thread: Healing Help Please

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Valerie, Frysta is such a beautiful horse,
    I am so sorry she is sick, will be keeping her in prayer.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Valerie, can you share a photo of Frysta, that I can use in my prayer and healing group. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Quote Posted by Kejaranhybrid (here)
    Valerie, can you share a photo of Frysta, that I can use in my prayer and healing group. Thanks.
    Here's the video Valerie shared.
    Incredible Natural Horsemanship! -- Frysta


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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Okay, we have a definitive diagnosis; COPD or Heaves. It is probably seasonal and due to allergies and definitely manageable with light doses of steroids while symptoms are present and Ventipulmin.

    The bacterial infection is a chicken or egg first kind of thing, but definitely related. She took more blood to see if the infection is being healed.

    So, for now she is on medication and will start feeling better shortly.

    I cannot thank you all enough for your wonderful care and attention. I feel like the weight of the world is off my shoulders and now I can get back to life.

    Blessings to you all.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (CoPD) - lungworm infection.

    Respiratory problems in horses
    2 October 2014 - Posted by Hannah Dyball in Pet Care

    Generally speaking, the causes of respiratory problems can be separated into four categories: bacterial/viral infections, parasitic infections, allergies, and anatomical defects. They can affect the nose, pharynx (throat), larynx (voice box), trachea (wind pipe) and lungs, which together make up the respiratory tract.

    Parasitic infections are another common cause of respiratory problems. Parasites that take nourishment from their host i.e. a blood meal, can transmit harmful infections through their secretions.

    In turn, they can affect the respiratory tract and cause chronic coughing. (as in Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease).

    Lungworm is a harmful parasite that affects the lungs in this way as the parasite spends part, if not most, of its life cycle in the respiratory system. Unbeknownst to many of us, 70% of donkeys are infected with lungworm, although few will show symptoms.

    Because of this, horses that are grazed with donkeys are at high risk of contracting the parasite.

    Seems the vet finally has said "gee it is something obstructing the bronchi".. let's call it "COPD" and brush it off, treat some symptoms make the effects go away and ignore the CAUSE.. (SIGH)..

    I cannot offer any more suggestions to talk with LSU and get a proper secretion study done, as your vet obviously has made up her mind ("knows" what "it" is...) how to deal with this situation without doing a study of secretions.. Lungworms don't show up in the poop. COPD is a symptom definition, not identifying a cause, not affecting a "cure" or even ideal treatment - (stop the infection is the treatment obviously)..

    OK VAL.. Good luck to you with treating symptoms. And you have a beautiful horse who is quite brilliant and no doubt loves you very much. Much love and blessings.
    Last edited by Bob; 16th October 2018 at 17:09.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Thanks Runningdeer, but I need a photograph.

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    United States Avalon Member Valerie Villars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Bob, do not misunderstand. We wormed her which will take care of the lungworms, which is all we can do to kill them. And as you said, Ivermectin is the treatment.

    Her lungs may be irritated from lungworm infection. But, if we are treating the worms, the infection and the inflammation, which we are, it would be the cure anyway.

    The difference is that her lungs were clear until today, when she heard what she said sounds like kittens moving in a bag.

    I'll call LSU right now and see what they say. By the way, the vet suggested, before the diagnosis, that LSU might be the next best bet, before I said anything about it.

    You may be right about the lungworms, but if that's the case, it's the same treatment.

    I just left a message with LSU.

    Quote Lungworms--If your horses share space with donkeys, they might be at risk for contracting lungworms. Dictyocaulus arnfieldi is a primary parasite of donkeys that has also found horses to be a passable host, and they can be very pathogenic.
    As the common name suggests, this long, white worm hangs out in the respiratory tract. Adults can be up to three inches (about eight centimeters) long. The eggs already contain first-stage larvae when laid, which hatch before they're passed out in the donkey's manure. (It is rare for lungworms to successfully reproduce in horses.) The larvae become infective in pasture in about five days, and when they're ingested they migrate by way of the lymphatic system to arrive in the lungs in another five days. Egg laying begins about 28 days after initial infection in the lungs, and the larvae travel up the trachea via coughing. Once in the throat, they're swallowed and make their exit via the intestinal tract.
    Larval lungworms live in the lumen (cavity) of the bronchial tree (the larger air passages of the lungs), where in horses they can cause chronic bronchitis, coughing, and atelectasis--a collapse of the alveoli (air sacs), which can compromise the ability of that part of the lung to exchange oxygen--all while remaining practically undetectable. The lung damage can have a serious impact on any high-performance horse. Interestingly, donkeys can harbor lungworms without any outward sign of disease, but it's in donkeys that the worms can successfully complete their life cycles. A minor infection of lungworms imposes only a mild burden on the horse. Heavier infections, however, can lead to partial or complete obstruction of the air passages, with clinical disease developing in proportion to the degree of obstruction. These horses might be difficult to distinguish from those with other types of respiratory problems, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD, also known as heaves). The easiest way to distinguish a lungworm infection is to consider the horse's history; if he has been housed with donkeys, lungworms are a real possibility.

    Respiratory Allergies

    There are conflicting research reports as to the cause of COPD. For years, many equine researchers and veterinarians have been of the opinion that COPD can be compared to asthma in humans. They believe that one cause is an allergic reaction on the part of the horse's respiratory system to certain types of dust, mold, or other substances. However, a recent study by a team of researchers at Cornell University on COPD seemed to contridict that theory. The Cornell team, led by Dorothy Ainsworth, DVM, PhD, said that its study strongly indicates that COPD is not an allergic reaction.

    By N. Edward Robinson, BVetMed, PhD, MRCVS,
    Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, and
    Melissa Millerick-May, BS, MS, PhD, Department of Medicine,
    Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI

    Horses with heaves first show signs when they are around eight years old. Signs include coughing and exercise intolerance and are more likely first observed when the affected horse is in closed environments such as a stable. The cough persists, and after one to two years the horse may show difficult breathing at rest. If the condition is untreated and management of the horse is not changed, airway obstruction becomes more severe and breathing becomes progressively more difficult. An affected horse loses weight because it cannot eat sufficient food when gasping for air and because it uses lots of muscular energy in the effort to breathe.
    Frysta is ten years old.
    Last edited by Valerie Villars; 16th October 2018 at 18:30.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Bob, I think you are a very precise person and perhaps the lack of exploring all options may be bothersome to you.

    You have been enormously helpful.

    This has gone on for two weeks, with three visits, three blood work-ups and an endocrinology work up coming in November. All this has been expensive and stressful. I certainly do want definitive answers and had left a message with her last night about the lungworms, thanks to you.

    I am very hands on with Frysta and honestly have been upset for two weeks over this. I will let you know as soon as LSU calls me back and I ask them how we could diagnose or rule out the lungworms. I also have another call into the vet with the same question.

    She did say it was unlikely, due to the short exposure, but I'm not ruling it out.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    (sigh) - treatment is not just 1 or two times a year. If there is an active infection, the treatment means do it now, even if done a few months ago.. One treatment says TWO worming products are used together Mebendazole and Ivermectin is one of the treatment, and everyone says if a donkey or mule has been present with your horse (or in the neighboring pasture, "and that pasture has been turned up" dust in the air, etc..) chances are lungworms. COPD and Heaves showing up with lungworm infection. Yellow mucous, etc. continually saying the same thing, treat for active lungworm infection, then and simultaneously due to the tissue being damaged/infected treat for bacterial infection... BUT take samples and have said samples properly analyzed by the diagnostic lab (in your case, LSU is the closest lab to do that diagnostic work). Some say it will require a slow dose 5 day treatment (one normal dose divided up into SMALLER proportions, based on weight/age, so that the ONE "normal dose" is given, but divided up slowly over time... followed up again two weeks later. LSU staff pbly would know what is the best to do with the age of your horse and the other symptoms present.. (Such as how to handle an allergic reaction to extremely rapid worm die-off, and necessity to clear the bronchi rapidly to prevent pneumonia).

    I do care about you and your horse.

    I make a point of doing what I can to the best of my ability to research and pass along what I find when I am asked.

    If help is not wanted, I will ignore the title of the thread "Healing Help Please" and "bug out" ..

    ( My vet knows to what extent I will technically help with research in the care of any one of any of my animals should they become ill. )

    If expense is an issue preventing proper diagnosis and then proper healing treatment I am certain, asking for help will bring in a lot of donations from many people who hear your call for help. I saw in one of your posts that it is getting expensive in treating your horse.

    -------------------------------

    A primer on Lungworm and donkey mule exposure to horses:

    Lungworms--If your horses share space with donkeys, they might be at risk for contracting lungworms. Dictyocaulus arnfieldi is a primary parasite of donkeys that has also found horses to be a passable host, and they can be very pathogenic.

    As the common name suggests, this long, white worm hangs out in the respiratory tract. Adults can be up to three inches (about eight centimeters) long.

    The eggs already contain first-stage larvae when laid, which hatch before they're passed out in the donkey's manure. (It is rare for lungworms to successfully reproduce in horses.) The larvae become infective in pasture in about five days, and when they're ingested they migrate by way of the lymphatic system to arrive in the lungs in another five days.

    Egg laying begins about 28 days after initial infection in the lungs, and the larvae travel up the trachea via coughing.

    Once in the throat, they're swallowed and make their exit via the intestinal tract.

    Larval lungworms live in the lumen (cavity) of the bronchial tree (the larger air passages of the lungs), where in horses they can cause chronic bronchitis, coughing, and atelectasis--a collapse of the alveoli (air sacs), which can compromise the ability of that part of the lung to exchange oxygen--all while remaining practically undetectable.

    The lung damage can have a serious impact on any high-performance horse.

    Interestingly, donkeys can harbor lungworms without any outward sign of disease, but it's in donkeys that the worms can successfully complete their life cycles.

    A minor infection of lungworms imposes only a mild burden on the horse. *(Possibly this is why it hasn't shown up earlier.. If the donkey from the other pasture was pooping all over there, stirring that stuff up, exacerbated irritation kicked off an infection, allowed for increase growth, of something - the horse should not be having those symptoms really otherwise..)

    Heavier infections, however, can lead to partial or complete obstruction of the air passages, with clinical disease developing in proportion to the degree of obstruction. (So steroid treatment and breathing aids are being used, great, love to hear what LSU says doing an actual analysis of the secretions.. without that it's guess work saying blood tests prove all, they don't is the point.)

    These horses might be difficult to distinguish from those with other types of respiratory problems, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD, also known as heaves).


    The easiest way to distinguish a lungworm infection is to consider the horse's history; if he has been housed with donkeys, lungworms are a real possibility.

    ================================================== ====================================

    Description: Donkey and mule spent time with Frysta. Horse developed cough, yellow mucous. Vet says oh well, lets treat with an antibiotic.. Oh well, maybe COPD, lets treat with steroids..

    Untreated lungworm Prognosis: Study showed with dead animals in Kentucky, worm infection, some of which spread to the brain shown up during necropsy.

    Quote Horses with heaves first show signs when they are around eight years old. Signs include coughing and exercise intolerance and are more likely first observed when the affected horse is in closed environments such as a stable. The cough persists, and after one to two years the horse may show difficult breathing at rest. If the condition is untreated and management of the horse is not changed, airway obstruction becomes more severe and breathing becomes progressively more difficult. An affected horse loses weight because it cannot eat sufficient food when gasping for air and because it uses lots of muscular energy in the effort to breathe.


    Animal health respiratory Noise:
    "little kittens sound" per the vet - weezing (sheesh vet, call it what it is).. ivermectin or moxidectin is being use as anthelmintic for the control of the ... other causes of luminal obstruction or upper respiratory noise. When fluid is building up that sound happens.

    PS - I apologize for any gruffness - When I hear a vet or medico blowing off doing proper diagnostics I tend to feel it has to be emphasized clearly that the vet I believe is not doing what they should be doing - proper diagnostic testing and one should be determined enough to call them out, albeit gently enough, but direct enough to get the adequate diagnostics done.. Else one is just covering up a "cause" treating outward symptoms...

    Quote Val: [..] Her lungs may be irritated from lungworm infection.

    But, if we are treating the worms, the infection and the inflammation, which we are, it would be the cure anyway.

    The difference is that her lungs were clear until today, when she heard what she said sounds like kittens moving in a bag.

    I'll call LSU right now and see what they say. By the way, the vet suggested, before the diagnosis, that LSU might be the next best bet, before I said anything about it.

    You may be right about the lungworms, but if that's the case, it's the same treatment.

    I just left a message with LSU.
    That the lungs WERE clear until today (was just bronchial previously) is what concerns me, greatly.. I've lost dear friends when that last symptom appears.. It took 10 days after that symptom appears (if not treated right), when they die. So obviously my insistence on getting LSU on board.
    Last edited by Bob; 16th October 2018 at 23:12.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    She had one dose of Ivermectin wormer two weeks ago and will receive another today. So, she is being treated for worms and has been wormed twice yearly since I've had her, with fecal checks approximately one month after dosage, every year, twice a year.

    She is on antibiotics for the infection (past 14 days) and Ventipulmen (past four days) for the bronchial inflammation.

    Today, she got a corticosteroid shot of Dexamethasome and will be on pills of the same until symptoms clear.

    I am trying to tell you we are doing everything possible for the symptoms right now. I have spared no expense, believe me. I don't care about expense. I am simply trying to say she is getting the best care I can give her right now and what she is getting treats both the lungworms and COPD.

    I love that you have helped and educated me. You and and everyone else who responded. I am not arguing with you in any way. I guess I am not expressing myself properly. I am always astounded at how knowledgeable and intelligent you are. And to top it off, you seem to be a very nice and caring person.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Quote Posted by Kejaranhybrid (here)
    Thanks Runningdeer, but I need a photograph.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Thanks Running Deer. I still don't know how to post photos from a digital camera, which is the only one I've had since I had Frysta.

    I tried not to be worried and upset the last two weeks, but I'm afraid I haven't done too much which was useful since she got sick. I even missed a trip to Rhode Island because of it. I didn't want to leave her while she was ill.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Thanks Running Deer. I still don't know how to post photos from a digital camera, which is the only one I've had since I had Frysta.
    Instructional links for later on, Lady Valerie…

    "How to Upload Digital Photos from Camera to Computer"

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    I don't care what this sounds like. Crazy or not.

    I just came from the barn. Frysta is deeply grateful and she knows how we all are helping her. And she feels better.

    Good night, ya'll. Her heart is big and pumping love and oxygen.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    I don't care what this sounds like. Crazy or not.

    I just came from the barn. Frysta is deeply grateful and she knows how we all are helping her. And she feels better.

    Good night, ya'll. Her heart is big and pumping love and oxygen.

    How’s Frysta?

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    She is back to normal. I have ridden her lightly the past two days, to help her expand her lungs and build herself back up.

    I am over the moon she feels good and I love you all for caring.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Awww, glad to hear the good news. Thanks for the update, Valerie.

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Valerie, I have been following your concerns for Frysta with love and healing energy. SO happy with your good news. Please kiss her sweet head for me. Diane

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Thank you Diane. I most certainly will do so. Frysta kind of saved my life. I've always had a special bond with horses and I needed something to love and care for; she thrills me.

    And her little mini mare companion, Annabelle Lee. Annabelle was a rescue.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Healing Help Please

    Yay!!!! I'm so happy to hear Frysta is better. Good on you!

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