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Thread: Gurdjieff's 4th way

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    Default Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

    Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

    Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

    Thank you.
    Many people begin learning about Gurdjieff's work through P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous"

    You could also watch the film "Meetings with remarkable men" based on the book of the same name

    If you wish to pursue further it is best to contact a Gurdjieff group, as really it is an oral tradition and any book is only going to give you only the tip of the iceberg

    This wikipedia page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdjieff_Foundation

    gives you a list of Gurdjieff groups at the bottom of the page. Probably the UK contact would be best for you and they will put you in touch with a group in Ireland

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote What is it you want to know?

    “I want to learn. I want to understand”

    Be careful… What do you call learning?
    If it means storing up experiences and beliefs it will tie you like a chord and prevent you from knowing.
    Knowing happens directly. When not even thought stands between you and the thing you know.
    Then you see yourself as you are not as you would like to be. I have learnt how difficult this can be.
    Dear young friend I will do everything I can to help you attain your aim.
    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 21st October 2018 at 14:30. Reason: Clarity - quote

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by leavesoftrees (here)
    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

    Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

    Thank you.
    Many people begin learning about Gurdjieff's work through P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous"

    You could also watch the film "Meetings with remarkable men" based on the book of the same name

    If you wish to pursue further it is best to contact a Gurdjieff group, as really it is an oral tradition and any book is only going to give you only the tip of the iceberg

    This wikipedia page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdjieff_Foundation

    gives you a list of Gurdjieff groups at the bottom of the page. Probably the UK contact would be best for you and they will put you in touch with a group in Ireland
    Thanks very much. I am currently nearly finished reading In Search of the Miraculous.

    I am of course aware of the need for a teacher or guide and that G has said it is impossible to know if you have found a teacher that is connected to a center standing outside of the law of accident until you have crossed the first threshold and actually started the work/way.

    Thanks again for the info.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Here's a beautiful introduction to Gurdjieff and his works

    He was light years ahead of his time.


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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    What is it you want to know?

    “I want to learn. I want to understand”

    Be careful… What do you call learning?
    If it means storing up experiences and beliefs it will tie you like a chord and prevent you from knowing.
    Knowing happens directly. When not even thought stands between you and the thing you know.
    Then you see yourself as you are not as you would like to be. I have learnt how difficult this can be.
    Dear young friend I will do everything I can to help you attain your aim.


    Thank you for your post and link.

    At the risk of claiming understanding when no true understanding can take place in Man Number 1, Man Number 2 and Man Number 3 (i certainly must fall into one of these catagories), I do appear to understand (as far as is possible for me) the difference between external 'knowing' and the material change needed (the development of the Astral and Mental bodies firstly) to begin the work.

    Trying to 'watch the watcher' or attempts at self-remembering prove what an impossible path this is to choose, but a path that I nonetheless feel drawn to. Many are called but few are chosen.

    John Baines' The Stellar Man was also an interesting read in a similar vein.

    *Edit: Taking the question at the start of your post 'What is it you want to know' I can only answer this by saying I want to know how to become a man (human). I want to be the master of my driver, horses and carriage. I just hope the 'I' that wants this is not just another one of the many I's in me.
    Last edited by pueblo; 21st October 2018 at 12:00.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    I am interested in connecting with people who have an understanding of the 4th Way.

    Discussion here is fine, but considering I know nothing I have nothing to teach and everything to learn.

    Thank you.
    IMO this may currently be one of the most important threads on Avalon. I'm very happy to see this thread and hope that others in the community catch on. I would also suggest looking into the Dark Journalist X series from the beginning to current to observe the involvement of the mystery schools and how they have been directly changing and moving history. There is much to learn there.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqO...QnHhE8FmIY3Yzg


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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    It must have been about 30 years ago that his books found me and still I will find new layers of understanding every time I read them.
    He never stops triggering me.

    Here's a beautiful quote of his:

    "To know means to know all.
    Not to know all means not to know.
    In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little.
    But, in order to know this little, it is first necessary to know pretty much."




    Add

    The most valuable thing Gurdjieff gave me was his warning to "verify everything for myself"
    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 21st October 2018 at 14:33. Reason: Add

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    It must have been about 30 years ago that his books found me and still I will find new layers of understanding every time I read them.
    He never stops triggering me.

    Here's a beautiful quote of his:

    "To know means to know all.
    Not to know all means not to know.
    In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little.
    But, in order to know this little, it is first necessary to know pretty much."




    Add

    The most valuable thing Gurdjieff gave me was his warning to "verify everything for myself"
    Its been 30 years for me too. He holds a special place in my metaphysical, esoteric, philosophical development
    I have to put Krishnamurti as well as others in that colorful box of wonderful philosophers, mystics and thinkers. I think the first book that gave me new directions on this path was 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' which I read in 74, my eldest brother gave it to me for my birthday it made me question or look at values.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.
    I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.
    Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I've been enjoying Kay Smith and thought I would share. This is a great channel. Enjoy.


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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I was a member of a UK Gurdjieff school for several years back in the 70s.

    It's undoubtedly a useful and practical philosophy starting with 'impartial self-observation' and the realisation that we have intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive centres or individual brains and that it is only possible to function correctly when the right part of the right brain is used for the right job.

    However, I have to say that these days with the huge increase in consciousness it is outdated and there are better, more direct methods to raise your level of being.

    Also, Gurdjieff himself was a product of a harsh childhood and his teaching reflects this in as much as it is lacking in love and compassion. That said, I still believe it is the best foundation for true self knowledge. Only with this understanding can anyone begin to be honest with themselves...

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by 5th (here)
    I was a member of a UK Gurdjieff school for several years back in the 70s.

    It's undoubtedly a useful and practical philosophy starting with 'impartial self-observation' and the realisation that we have intellectual, emotional and moving/instinctive centres or individual brains and that it is only possible to function correctly when the right part of the right brain is used for the right job.

    However, I have to say that these days with the huge increase in consciousness it is outdated and there are better, more direct methods to raise your level of being.

    Also, Gurdjieff himself was a product of a harsh childhood and his teaching reflects this in as much as it is lacking in love and compassion. That said, I still believe it is the best foundation for true self knowledge. Only with this understanding can anyone begin to be honest with themselves...
    Thank you for your post.

    What is your take on the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky view that a person can not change himself by himself, that it requires (initially) submission to the will of another (teacher/guide) who is qualified (standing outside the law of accident) to teach/guide?

    They seem to be clear that ALL attempts without such a teacher will come to nothing and worse further entangle the person in self deception.

    5th, you say there are "better, more direct methods to raise your level of being"....can you elaborate on what these methods are?

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)

    What is your take on the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky view that a person can not change himself by himself, that it requires (initially) submission to the will of another (teacher/guide) who is qualified (standing outside the law of accident) to teach/guide?

    They seem to be clear that ALL attempts without such a teacher will come to nothing and worse further entangle the person in self deception.

    5th, you say there are "better, more direct methods to raise your level of being"....can you elaborate on what these methods are?

    I suppose a 'teacher' is necessary for The 4th Way and yes, 'entangle the person in self deception' is a fate suffered by most on the path to enlightenment.

    That said, you have to understand that things are very different these days. Back then, spirituality was talked about in allegory and never directly. Gurdjieff himself couched it in 'science' but now it is all out in the open and part of the collective unconscious. There are many teachers freely available on the Internet and it's no longer a secretive thing for the few. For example, Bashar and Teal Swan are good sources of a deeper spiritually and self development than The 4th Way. But again I repeat that it is perhaps the best system to understand the human machine.

    I would cite both Bashar (Darrly Anka) and Teal as two sources to raise your level of being in a more direct way. But the problem is that only a few people are really ready to be honest with themselves and actually do the (painful) work required. I remember the time when I moved on from The 4th Way group after realising that 4 out of 5 people there were doing and achieving nothing. As a point of interest, three of us went to a Greek island for a year and lived without electricity or running water after we became disillusioned with the Gurdjieff school and that was a great learning experience.

    Whenever we find s new source of teaching the common pitfall is to (rightly) become excited and believe this is THE answer and we'll be doing it for the rest of our life. However, I know for sure that everything is just a stage in our life and only the narrow minded and stuck remain in one place...

    In the end, we must become our own teachers because everything is within but it's a long and interesting path to actually see that. Anything with a guru and a hierarchy belongs to the old world - the one that Gurdjieff unsuccessfully tried to 'squash like a bug'! Remember his own inner demons from childhood resulted in a near fatal car crash and the end of his 'Work'. So even he, great and important though he was, failed in fully sorting himself out.

    Don't let that put you off - learn all you can about his methods and apply the impartial self observation, understand how the centres work and it will be of great benefit to you. This can be done without a teacher.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Thank you 5th.

    I can hear your Greek island calling me now

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by 5th (here)
    I suppose a 'teacher' is necessary for The 4th Way and yes, 'entangle the person in self deception' is a fate suffered by most on the path to enlightenment.

    That said, you have to understand that things are very different these days. Back then, spirituality was talked about in allegory and never directly. Gurdjieff himself couched it in 'science' but now it is all out in the open and part of the collective unconscious. There are many teachers freely available on the Internet and it's no longer a secretive thing for the few. For example, Bashar and Teal Swan are good sources of a deeper spiritually and self development than The 4th Way. But again I repeat that it is perhaps the best system to understand the human machine.

    I would cite both Bashar (Darrly Anka) and Teal as two sources to raise your level of being in a more direct way. But the problem is that only a few people are really ready to be honest with themselves and actually do the (painful) work required. I remember the time when I moved on from The 4th Way group after realising that 4 out of 5 people there were doing and achieving nothing. As a point of interest, three of us went to a Greek island for a year and lived without electricity or running water after we became disillusioned with the Gurdjieff school and that was a great learning experience.

    Whenever we find s new source of teaching the common pitfall is to (rightly) become excited and believe this is THE answer and we'll be doing it for the rest of our life. However, I know for sure that everything is just a stage in our life and only the narrow minded and stuck remain in one place...

    In the end, we must become our own teachers because everything is within but it's a long and interesting path to actually see that. Anything with a guru and a hierarchy belongs to the old world - the one that Gurdjieff unsuccessfully tried to 'squash like a bug'! Remember his own inner demons from childhood resulted in a near fatal car crash and the end of his 'Work'. So even he, great and important though he was, failed in fully sorting himself out.

    Don't let that put you off - learn all you can about his methods and apply the impartial self observation, understand how the centres work and it will be of great benefit to you. This can be done without a teacher.
    I was in a Gurdjieff group for about 10 years, but left when I realised that it was time for me to leave school . It was a valuable experience to get a sense of the Gurdjieff work, but I think I only scratched the surface

    I do think you need a teacher, that self observation needs to be learnt and practised and discussed in a group. It is very easy to be swept away with the Gurdjieff ideas, but the ideas aren't the work, and without the work they can easily become fantasy

    We can't know to what extent Gurdjieff sorted himself out. He was a man on another level and 70 years after his death it is impossible to say. But what we can now see is that in the years since his death many people in many countries throughout the world have practised his methods and are still practising them. And get results from them. there are problems with the different organisations that carry on his teachings , but they at least are carrying them on.

    At his funeral there was a considerable delay for his coffin to arrive at the church, which was packed with his students and those whose lives had been touched by M. Bon Bon. the priest was amazed. and said later he had never seen a congregation which sat in such undistracted silence, a homage to their teacher who taught how to be present to themselves


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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Divine grace is the ultimate arbiter of whether one receives this knowledge or not. No amount of learning by rote will achieve this state. It's a lifelong process and as far as I know, it is innate and happens naturally. It can't be forced. That's my experience.
    I know what you mean about things happening naturally and there is truth in this to a certain extent only imo... Gurdjieff would say that it is impossible (or next to impossible) for man to awaken by himself... he states that a man is unable to do anything, to know anything or be anything until he realises first he can do nothing, know nothing nor be anything by his own volition.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    My takeaway on G is that one's life should be an exercise in becoming spiritually complete and whole to the core, without inner contradiction or self-delusion.
    Therein lies the rub. How to proceed without self delusion?
    Fake it till you make it?

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
    Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?

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