Gurdjieff's 4th way

[greybeard]

There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

[pueblo]

Posted by greybeard (here)
There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?

[greybeard]

Posted by pueblo (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?

Thanks. I did not know that--it was just an observation.
Chris

[pueblo]

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by pueblo (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
There must be chaos before there is new order.
Chris

Hmm...that's the Freemason's motto, right? Ordo Ab Chao..?

Thanks. I did not know that--it was just an observation.
Chris

Sure, I wasn't casting any aspersions by the way...

The motto is of course true, but it is also a blueprint for bringing about (or solidifying) the globalist plan for a NWO....purposely creating chaos to facilitate the introduction of 'their' NWO....

I know that the new order you speak of is a totally different animal

[greybeard]

Yes Peublo
I could have worded "new order better perhaps"
As in "Out of chaos comes order"
Never occurred to me that you meant other than what you said.

Great thread Pueblo
Thanks
Chris

[petra]

Posted by greybeard (here)
There must be chaos before there is new order.

I think there's order in chaos, and I boil that down to the Law of Averages. I get the point though, the way it used to be put to me is "The darkness needs to rise to the surface before it can be destroyed", and I do believe that.

[pueblo]

In people's opinion would the Fourth Way be considered as service to self?

What about the way of the obyvatel?

The obyvatel is defined as a good person living in accord with his own conscience, who is evolving, usually slowly, yet sometimes faster than a yogi or monk, without the need for a particular teaching.

The obyvatel knows that 'things do themselves' therefore he is not deceived by people who live in fantasy, whether these fantasies are to do with politics or 'Ways". The Russian word obyvatel means 'inhabitant' but it is used wrongly in a contemptuous way by people who, because they are interested in 'Ways' look down on the obyvatel.

Gurdjieff stresses that not all obyvatels are people of the Objective Way, some are 'thieves, rascals and fools': however, 'the ability to orientate oneself in life is a very useful quality from the point of view of the work'. No-one can embark on a 'Way' who has not attained the level of obyvatel - ie. someone who has the ability to support at least 20 people from his own labour.

Gurdjieff: The Key Concepts By Sophia Wellbeloved

I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas. It seems innate and perhaps this is the result of a life lived in the way of the obyvatel?

“It often seems to people of the ‘way,’ that is, of the subjective way, especially those who are just beginning, that other people, that is, people of the objective way, are not moving. But this is a great mistake. A simple obyvatel may sometimes do such work within him that he will overtake another, a monk or even a yogi.

Obyvatel is a strange word in the Russian language. It is used in the sense of ‘inhabitant,’ without any particular shade. At the same time it is used to express contempt or derision--’obyvatel’--as though there could be nothing worse. But those who speak in this way do not understand that the obyvatel is the healthy kernel of life.

And from the point of view of the possibility of evolution, a good obyvatel has many more chances than a ‘lunatic’ or a ‘tramp.’ Afterwards I will perhaps explain what I mean by these two words.

In the meantime we will talk about the obyvatel. I do not at all wish to say that all obyvatels are people of the objective way. Nothing of the kind. Among them are thieves, rascals, and fools; but there are others. I merely wish to say that being a good obyvatel by itself does not hinder the ‘way.’ And finally there are different types of obyvatel.

Imagine, for example, the type of obyvatel who lives all his life just as the other people around him, conspicuous in nothing, perhaps a good master, who makes money, and is perhaps even close-fisted. At the same time he dreams all his life of monasteries, for instance, and dreams that some time or other he will leave everything and go into a monastery.

And such things happen in the East and in Russia. A man lives and works, then, when his children or his grandchildren are grown up, he gives everything to them and goes into a monastery. This is the obyvatel of which I speak. Perhaps he does not go into a monastery, perhaps he does not need this. His own life as an obyvatel can be his way.

In Search of the Miraculous - Ouspensky P. 369

My focus for now will be in trying to obtain the level of a good obyvatel. Perhaps this way is a middle way between service to self and service to others?

[aoibhghaire]

It seems that there are key(s) given down to persons over time. My understanding in this case Gurdjieff had passed it down to Ouspensky in France, then Blake in the UK and then MacSharry in Scotland.

You may ask who is MacSharry? I didn’t know myself until I got an invitation from him to meet in Edinburgh in 1997. I met MacSharry and other participants whom had traveled from different parts of Europe. It was a closed session, not a workshop, but a meaningful experience over 3 days. MacSharry hasn’t written anything down in normal conventions, like a book, but expresses his writing in real time a different form, it’s more of an experience of just listening to him. He doesn’t give workshops. He just has a network of friends that are familiar with Gurdjieff/ Ouspensky writings and practice.

I was told that MacSharry had taken the next phase on, going beyond Gurdjieff/ Ouspensky/Blake to a higher level which was expressed in mathematical/symbology. At the time I didn’t fully understand this process of expression. Since then i never followed though with any other meet ups. For what it is worth I pass this on.

[NX.P]

I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UEe2pN8oksc

G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

[greybeard]

Where I have a challenge is that regardless of the teacher the followers will expand and make the original teaching complex.


G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

For me its clear enough--the me the person is always changing the "Self" does not.
Every enlightened teacher says "Be still be quiet" that's all that's needed.

Christ " Be still and know that I am"
The suggestion of Ramana Maharshi. find the Self --his aid to this "Self Inquiry"

Chris

[pueblo]

Posted by NX.P (here)

I think many of us have come across people who seem to have a natural. organic 'knowing', a wisdom that is not expressed in philosophical concepts or ideas.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UEe2pN8oksc

G. I. Gurdjieff:
"It is the greatest mistake to think that man is always one and the same. A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour."

"Remember your self always and everywhere."

Seinfeld's day guy/night guy is funny because it's true.

Self remembering for me is bewildering, never quite sure who is trying to do the remembering or who it is being remembered.

I have long been aware though of the multitude of 'I's inside, not sure I would even recognize myself now even I did happen to accidentally remember him.

[greybeard]

Hi Pueblo
There is only one I-- lots of ever cchanging me's though,
I is the silent awareness--eternal and unchanged by the ups and downs of life.
It is the witness of all including what "me" gets up to.
On enlightenment this separate me is transcended--no agenda ego less.

Chris

[pueblo]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Hi Pueblo
There is only one I-- lots of ever cchanging me's though,
I is the silent awareness--eternal and unchanged by the ups and downs of life.
It is the witness of all including what "me" gets up to.
On enlightenment this separate me is transcended--no agenda ego less.

Chris

Yes, though sometimes the ever changing 'me's like to pretend they are the one I....MPD (multiple personality disorder)?

[Hendog]

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qfNtPbHkp0U

Never thought about this subject before until I stumbled upon it here at Project Avalon
then shortly after I heard Gurdjieff and Jesu mentioned in this song.

[Shadowman]

Posted by sms (here)
At the end, another question remains, - is it really possible to get out of the “crooked game” (for those interested), as implied in the eastern gnosis, or not?!

...

Hi sms,

That "I" which seeks to know, that "I" which asks the question, that which believes itself to to be caught up in the "crooked game" - is that which obscures the absolute truth.

In reality "The Goose is already out" - it never was actually "in" the game. But from the point of the dreamer this absolute "viewpoint" may seem unhelpful.

So teachers sometimes make concessions...

CAN AN ENLIGHTENED PERSON BE WRONG? THIS REFERS TO WHAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT
J. KRISHNAMURTI, WHO KEEPS ON SAYING THAT ONE DOES NOT NEED A MASTER, WHICH
IS ACTUALLY NOT RIGHT PLEASE COMMENT.

Prem Pantha,

AN ENLIGHTENED person can never be wrong. Neither J. Krishnamurti is wrong, but he never
considers the situation in which you are. He considers only the space in which he is, and that
freedom is part of enlightenment.

The enlightened person has reached the highest peak of consciousness; his abode is on Everest.
Now it is his freedom to speak according to the peak, the sunlit peak where he is, or to consider
the people who are still in the dark valley, who know nothing about the light, for whom the peak
of the Everest is only a dream, only a perhaps”. This is the freedom of the enlightened person.
Krishnamurti speaks in terms where he is.

I speak in terms where you are, I consider you, because if I am speaking to you, you have to be
taken in consideration. I have to lead you towards the highest peak, but the journey will begin in the
dark valley, in your unconsciousness. If I talk about my experience, absolutely inconsiderate of you,
I am right, but I am not useful to you.

An enlightened person is never wrong, but he can be useful or he can be useless.

J. Krishnamurti is useless! He is perfectly right; about that there is no question, because I know the
peak and what he is saying is certainly true – from the vision of the peak. Those who have arrived,
for them the journey becomes almost a dream phenomenon. For those who have not arrived the
journey is real, the goal is just a dream. They are living in two different worlds. When you are talking
to a madman you have to consider him; if you don’t consider him you cannot help him.

Once a madman was brought to me. He had this crazy idea that one afternoon when he was
sleeping, a fly has entered his mouth. And because he used to sleep with open mouth, nobody can
deny the possibility. And since then he was very much disturbed because the fly was roaming inside
him, jumping inside him, moving in his belly, going to his bladder, circulating in his bloodstream,
sometimes in his head, sometimes in his feet. And of course he could not do anything because he
was continuously occupied, obsessed with the fly.

He was taken to the psychoanalysts and they said, ”This is just in your mind – there is no fly! And
no fly can move in your bloodstream, there is no possibility. Even if a fly has entered it must have
died! And now six months have passed; it cannot be alive inside you.”

He listened, but he could not believe it because his experience was far more solid. He was taken
to the doctors and everybody examined him and they did everything, but finally they will say, ”It is
just a mental thing. You are imagining.” He will listen what they were saying, but he could not trust
because his experience was far more certain than their words.

His family brought him to me as a last resort. The man was looking very tired because he was being
taken to one person, then to another, then all kinds of physicians – allopaths and homeopaths and
naturopaths – and he was really tired. In the first place the fly was tiring him, and now all these
”pathies”, medicines. And everybody was insulting him – that was his feeling, that they were saying
that he was just imagining. Is he a fool or he is mad, that he will imagine such a thing? They were
all humiliating him – that was his feeling.

I looked at the man and I said, ”It is so clear that the fly is inside!”

For a moment he was puzzled. He could not believe me, because nobody has said that to him –
because nobody has considered him. And they ALL were right and I was wrong – there was no fly,
but the madman has to be considered.

And I said, ”All those fools are just wasting your time; you should have come first here. It is such a
simple thing to bring the fly out; there is no need to bother. Medicines won’t help – you are not ill.
Psycholanalysis will not help – you are not crazy.”

And immediately he was a changed man! He looked at his wife and said, ”Now what do you say?
This is the right man,” he said, ”who really knows. And all those fools were trying to convince me
that there is no fly. It is there!”

I said to him that, ”It is simple – we will take it out. You lie down.”
I covered him with a blanket and told him to keep his eyes closed and ”I will do some mantra, some
magic, and we will bring the fly out. You just keep quiet so that the fly sits somewhere. Otherwise
the fly is continuously running – where to catch it?”
He said, ”That looks logical. I will keep absolutely still!”
And I said, ”Don’t open your eyes. Just remain silent, breathe slowly, so the fly settles somewhere,
so we can catch hold of it!
”
Then I rushed into the house to find a fly. It was a little bit difficult because for the first time I was
trying that, but finally I succeeded – I could get a fly in a bottle. And I came to the man, I moved my
hand on his body, and I asked him, ”Where the fly is?” And he said, ”In the belly.” And I touched the
belly and I said, ”Of course it is there!” And I convinced him that I perfectly believe in him and then I
uncovered his blanket and showed him the fly.

And he said to the wife, ”Now see! And give this bottle to me; I will go all to those fools and take all
the fees that they have taken from me! I have wasted thousands of rupees, and all that they did was
they told me I am mad! And now I don’t feel the fly anywhere, because it is in the bottle!”
He took the bottle, he went to the doctors.

One of the doctors who knew me, he came to see me. He said, ”How you managed? Six months
a fly can live in the body? And that man has taken his fee back from me, because he was making
such a fuss that I said, ’Better give it back to him!’ And he proved that he was right!”
I said, ”It is not the point who is right.”

Gautam the Buddha defines truth as ”that which works”. This is the ancientmost pragmatic definition
of truth: ”that which works”! All the devices are truth in this sense: they work; they are only devices.
The Buddha’s work is UPAYA; UPAYA exactly means device.

Meditation is an UPAYA, a device. It simply helps you to get rid of that which you have not got in the
first place – the fly: the ego, the misery, the anguish! It helps you to get free of it, but in fact it is not
there. But it is not to be told...

- I am That - Osho p99-101


So when you are ready to sacrifice everything to "remove the fly" find your nearest Egoholics Anonymous Meeting,
sit quietly and let the grass grow by itself. Relative knowledge may ripen a mango
but ultimately, when the time is right, it falls from the tree in silence (man go),

With Love/ In La'kech
tim