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Thread: Gurdjieff's 4th way

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    France Avalon Member Deux Corbeaux's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
    Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?
    One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

    https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/a...lesson-buddha/

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
    Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?
    One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

    https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/a...lesson-buddha/
    Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
    Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
    One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
    Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
    Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
    One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
    This is a direct experience

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
    Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?
    One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

    https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/a...lesson-buddha/
    Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
    Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
    One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
    Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
    Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
    One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
    This is a direct experience

    Chris
    So true.

    The direct experience, anything else is as a pale comparison.

    It is like trying to relate an experience to another that has never experienced the superlative. One may try but ultimately words fall flat in the attempt. There is a glimpse, a tease but never in full through such things as words, thoughts, ideas, or detailed media alone.

    The 'other than' direct experience using an analogy would be that of spinning wheels. Imagine progressing for eternity convinced of having come a long ways only to discover no progress (or regression) had ever actually occurred.

    Relating only to all possible instruments/ feedback one would be led to believe they've made a great deal of progress but if an instrument could be placed externally the distance covered would be essentially zero.

    Not hard to think of the 'rat race', or hamster wheel. "Where are you going little hamster?"



    Look, one is getting ahead (but not really).
    Last edited by O Donna; 24th October 2018 at 04:22.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by O Donna (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Here's something Jesus said that sounds fairly Gurdjieffian: "If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light"
    Note that both of these masters preached self-knowledge as the answer -- as opposed to the Buddha, who taught personal oblivion as the answer. A rather large difference, don'tcha think?
    One of Buddha's great teachings: "learn to know yourself through direct knowledge, not through the influence of others."

    https://www.himalayaninstitute.org/a...lesson-buddha/
    Non-duality is simple and what the majority of Mystics point to these days.
    Self Realization, the discovery that one is already enlightened but this is obscured by Maya
    One does not need a teacher--there has been cases of this happening spontaneously Raman Maharshi, Eckhart Tolle to name but just two.
    Complicated teaching tend to lead one away on a path.
    Non-duality is about uncovering what is there already.
    One without a second as expressed by Advaita Vedanta.
    This is a direct experience

    Chris
    So true.

    The direct experience, anything else is as a pale comparison.

    It is like trying to relate an experience to another that has never experienced the superlative. One may try but ultimately words fall flat in the attempt. There is a glimpse, a tease but never in full through such things as words, thoughts, ideas, or detailed media alone.

    The 'other than' direct experience using an analogy would be that of spinning wheels. Imagine progressing for eternity convinced of having come a long ways only to discover no progress (or regression) had ever actually occurred.

    Relating only to all possible instruments/ feedback one would be led to believe they've made a great deal of progress but if an instrument could be placed externally the distance covered would be essentially zero.

    Not hard to think of the 'rat race', or hamster wheel. "Where are you going little hamster?"



    Look, one is getting ahead (but not really).
    It is a little like the phenomenon where people lost in a forest or jungle can spends days and weeks walking, thinking they are following a definite direction, only to discover they are actually walking in circles.

    Ending up back where I started seems to be a recurring theme in my spiritual journey! Sometimes though, it is necessary to go backwards in order to go forwards.

    What you say about 'words falling flat' in attempting to either learn or communicate spiritual ideas and concepts is correct, this is what Gurdjieff was trying to address with his concise use of language where the definition of words (that can have many meanings...Babel?) are broken down or expanded so that there is a more exact understanding of what they actually reference.

    To truly understand then is a function of being, not of the mind.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Ego loves complex ideas but you are not an idea.
    When teachers speak of dying to know one self (Jesus did) they mean death of the ego.
    The ego is self identification the story of the little me.

    The wave becomes the ocean but it is water, always was.
    Compressed consciousness, the person becomes what it always was, the full consciousness.
    The mystics say there is nothing but consciousness.

    The so called path gets narrower and narrower.
    Yes the mind will take you round and round --been there often.
    All very interesting but a distraction none the less.

    Be still and know that I am "God".
    Its that simple, meditate and use Self Inquiry --nothing to explain.

    Chris
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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    This is a direct experience account of enlightenment.
    Tim's thread linked below.
    Chris


    Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

    What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

    Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is."

    On the link is a complete account of awakening.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904
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    Post Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I loved the freedom to explore consciousness development as i wanted to understand what was available to understand. Over 50 years probing here and there, lead me to live lightly in the woods (47 years in one low cost junk yard at arrival as a young man), as attempted career pursuits seemed to oppose consciousness-goals, where one was required to instead fill mind with all the pertaining knowledge of commercial fixations. This sort of knowledge was steered away from, as it is just data and not deeper life experience. Gradual growth of internal understanding seems to be consciousness development, (evolving human mentality, emotionality and physicality).

    My favorite Gurdjieff memory is his book “Meetings with Remarkable Men” because it touched more on his adventuresome experience, which spoke to my youthful sensibility. He seemed to promise a “third series” which was allegedly published in the mid 1970s, but did not seem related to this promise. My favorite part of the Meetings book was about Brothers Sez and Brother Ahl:

    Quote I must tell you that in our brotherhood there are two very old
    brethren; one is called Brother Ahl and the other Brother Sez,
    These brethren have voluntarily undertaken the obligation of
    penodically visiting all the raonastenes of our order and explain-
    ing vanous aspects of the essence of divmity.

    […]

    ‘Yes, Professor, knowledge and understanding are quite
    different. Only understanding can lead to being, whereas know-
    ledge is but a passing presence in it. New knowledge displaces the
    old and the result is, as it were, a pouring from the empty into
    the void.
    Thanks to this site for easy access, (please forgive lack of edited spelling)... Gratefully an OCR is on line at:
    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....e-Men_djvu.txt

    ‘Empty’ and ‘void’ has been a lasting reference point
    to savor continually, for more and more ^__^


    Lately the Pythagoreans offer me the best procedures to distinguish what is mere data filled robots, invading mind and what is consciousness in experiential forms, successionally and subtly developing.
    Last edited by wavydome; 24th October 2018 at 09:16. Reason: added: (please forgive lack of edited spelling)

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
    The human being can grow expand etc
    We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.

    There is a mass evolution of the human race "spirituality" going on just now.
    Current spiritual teachers have millions of followers with teaching related to similar "experiences" of awakening as related by Tim in his thread.
    The story of the spontaneous and complete awakening of Ramana Maharshi at the age of sixteen is very convincing.

    Chris

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
    The human being can grow expand etc
    We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.

    There is a mass evolution of the human race "spirituality" going on just now.
    Current spiritual teachers have millions of followers with teaching related to similar "experiences" of awakening as related by Tim in his thread.
    The story of the spontaneous and complete awakening of Ramana Maharshi at the age of sixteen is very convincing.

    Chris

    Would you agree that the mass spiritual evolution you speak of seems to be paralleled with a mass spiritual 'devolution' as well?

    It seems to me that while one portion of humanity is awakening, another portion is sinking further and further into deeper sleep.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    pueblo
    While I am reluctant to say so.
    It would seem that the "good" is getting better and the bad getting "worse"
    However its only a few generations back that the Scots for one were into beheading with swords.
    Now if there is a disaster of any magnitude, people dive deep into their pockets to help people they will never meet, in countries far away.
    People die every second--children born every moment.
    Who knows were any of this is going, but I hope for a better future for all.

    Chris
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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    The understanding of consciousness can be expanded but consciousness as pointed to by the enlightened mystics is eternal and unchanging, it is perfection, always was always will be--no beginning no end.
    The human being can grow expand etc
    We are temporally in human form--the in-dweller.
    Ah yes and while we are all but humans, more or less challenged with the the tasks of being...

    the enlightened and the learned spoke,

    we may have listened going forward,

    preferably not backwards to for the next eon of incarnations.

    Why not do it in the road? ^__^ : )

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I think it sensible to investigate what enlightenment actually is.
    What "path" has a proven success rate.
    Is it down to Divine Grace?
    The number of people now awakened is far far greater than when I first became interested in the subject.
    Many people interviewed on Conscious TV and Buddha at the gas pump.
    https://batgap.com/

    For me the question who/what am I? has the most importance/priority and has been so as long as I can remember.
    Each to their own of course.

    Chris
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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    I think it sensible to investigate what enlightenment actually is.
    What "path" has a proven success rate.
    Is it down to Divine Grace?
    The number of people now awakened is far far greater than when I first became interested in the subject.
    Many people interviewed on Conscious TV and Buddha at the gas pump.
    https://batgap.com/

    For me the question who/what am I? has the most importance/priority and has been so as long as I can remember.
    Each to their own of course.

    Chris
    Those questions you allude to have always been the most important 'things' in my life too, however it has been difficult at times to remain awake and focused on them, so many distractions in life, either by accident or design.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Have you ever had an what can only be described as an epiphany which offered the sense of clarity only to realize later on, though beautiful in was, had an element that could be described as seeing through a glass darkly?

    Indirect experiences can be breathtaking while the direct experience is unimaginable. If one can image-able a direct experience, that is not it.
    Last edited by O Donna; 24th October 2018 at 20:20.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Unimaginable yes, unattainable........?

    Aspiring to attain something even approximating joy mightn't be such a bad thing in the final analysis....asleep or not..

    Teilhard de Chardin sounds a little like Gurdjieff to me here.

    Quote "Joy is above all the fruit of having come face to face with a universal and enduring reality to which one can refer and as it were attach those fragmentary moments of happiness that, being successive and fugitive, excite the heart without satisfying it. The mystic suffers more than other men from the tendency of created things to crumble into dust: instinctively and obstinately he searches for the stable, the unfailing, the absolute."

    -Teilhard de Chardin Hymn of the Universe

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Buddha, and Gurdjieff, both attempted to teach/transmit pointing out instructions whose "goal" is awakening. Dzogchen, the most sublime teaching in the short way, comes from Tibetan Buddhism. There are many paths in Eastern teachings but few in Western teachings.
    All the mass religions had outer, inner an secret teachings. Dzogchen, and Gurdjieff, taught the short way. Gurdjieff's eyes tell me he was awake.
    To the Jesus saying - the "spiritual" eye sees oneness. Only one eye is needed. The third eye. This oneness manifests here as light. And thus we have Jesus validating a paramount feature of the awakened state (or even partially awakened), the ability to see light. Everywhere. Different layers of light. Em Ah Ho. It is amazing.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Here's Osho with his million dollar diamond watch talking about the 9 year old Gurdjieff when his father died.


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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    I have to admit this topic is so over my head. The book title came to me in a weird way.
    P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous”
    1999 or 2000 a mailer came to the house: “Learn how to trade commodities.”
    Honestly, I have long forgotten who sent the mailer
    but it was based on 1,2,3 tops and bottoms in market
    graph formations. The guy allegedly became filthy rich
    trading commodities based on tops and bottoms and
    therefore was somehow moved to suggest reading the
    book and actually doing something memorable.
    It made zero sense to me at the time. 2002. Could not
    make heads or tails out of it.
    In hind sight, I think he was trying to form a cult.

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    I have to admit this topic is so over my head. The book title came to me in a weird way.
    P D Ouspensky's book "In search of the miraculous”
    1999 or 2000 a mailer came to the house: “Learn how to trade commodities.”
    Honestly, I have long forgotten who sent the mailer
    but it was based on 1,2,3 tops and bottoms in market
    graph formations. The guy allegedly became filthy rich
    trading commodities based on tops and bottoms and
    therefore was somehow moved to suggest reading the
    book and actually doing something memorable.
    It made zero sense to me at the time. 2002. Could not
    make heads or tails out of it.
    In hind sight, I think he was trying to form a cult.
    I find the whole 'Octaves' idea in Search for the Miraculous difficult to understand and well over my head! The more metaphyisical/Psychological concepts are easier to grasp in my opinion.

    I am reading this next..

    Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky by Maurice Nicoll, available as a PDF..

    http://www.gianfrancobertagni.it/mat...ommentari1.pdf

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    Default Re: Gurdjieff's 4th way

    "I find the whole 'Octaves' idea in Search for the Miraculous difficult to understand and well over my head! The more metaphyisical/Psychological concepts are easier to grasp in my opinion."

    One of the most useful aspects of the 'Octaves' concept is that of 'missing half notes'. If you look at a piano keyboard octave there are black half notes between Doh and Ray, Ray and Me but there is one missing between Me and Fah - the Me Fah gap.

    If you think of any project or pursuit, the stages can be broken down into notes of an octave and we find that things progress easily in the beginning - Doh, Ray, Me but when we hit the Me Fah gap problems start. Unless we are aware of this and consciously inject energy at this point the path will deviate from the original intention.

    Then things progress OK until we get to the next missing black half note between Te (Si in some languages) and the final Doh goal. These deviations that happen, unless a person (or organisation) is consciously able to overcome them, explain why all normal human endeavour ends up poorly and if several octaves are involved always ends up in the opposite direction. People start out with good intentions but it rarely works out...

  40. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to 5th For This Post:

    aoibhghaire (11th November 2018), Hazelfern (26th October 2018), pueblo (26th October 2018)

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