+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

  1. Link to Post #1
    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,766
    Thanks
    60,316
    Thanked 95,039 times in 15,475 posts

    Default Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    189 feared dead in first ever Boeing 737 MAX 8 crash in Indonesia

    RT
    Mon, 29 Oct 2018 02:09 UTC


    Workers of PT Pertamina examine recovered debris of what is believed to be from the crashed Lion Air flight JT610. © Reuters

    A plane operated by the low-cost Indonesian airline Lion Air crashed while on a domestic flight from Jakarta. It's the first crash ever for Boeing's new 737 MAX 8 model.

    "It has been confirmed that it has crashed," Yusuf Latif, a spokesman for the Indonesian rescue agency, said, as cited by Reuters. The plane was on its way from the Indonesian capital, Jakarta to the city of Pangkal Pinang on Sumatra, a flight slightly longer than an hour.

    Latif said that the jet lost contact with air traffic control 13 minutes into the flight, and crashed into the sea.

    The plane requested an emergency landing almost immediately after it took off, Sindu Rahayu of the Air Transportation Directorate General said at a press conference. He added that the authorities lost contact with the plane after the request.

    The plane was packed with 189 passengers and crew, Indonesian National Search and Rescue Agency said. At least 23 government officials were on board, Reuters reports.

    Quote Ahmer Murad👓‏ @AhmerMurad

    According to FlightRadar24, it appears that #LionAir flight #JT610 was just off the coast of Indonesia at an altitude of 3,650 ft when it lost contact.

    7:40 PM - 28 Oct 2018
    2 replies 17 retweets 9 likes
    Flight tracking service Flightradar24 says preliminary flight data shows a drop in the plane's altitude and increase in speed before the transmission was cut. The plane appears to have plunged into the sea just off the coast of Indonesia, data provided by the service shows. It was reportedly at an altitude of 3,650 feet (about 1,112m) when the signal was lost.

    The plane was built recently, with about 800 flight hours, the head of Indonesia's national transportation safety committee (KNKT), Dr. Soerjanto Tjahjono, said. Lion Air has confirmed that the plane was airworthy and was piloted by an experienced crew. Its pilot and co-pilot had clocked in 11,000 flight hours together. The common number of flight hours for a pilot in a year is around 1,000.

    The authorities will not speculate on the cause of the tragedy until the black box is retrieved and they receive a recording from an air traffic control post, Tjahjono said, as cited by The Strait Times.The newspaper reported that the plane could have carried about 20 Finance Ministry staff.

    Debris from the plane, including seats, has been found floating in the Java sea near a facility belonging to state oil firm Pertamina, a company official told Reuters. Sailors on a nearby tugboat were reportedly the first witnesses of the crash.

    A search and rescue operation has been launched, with divers sent to search for possible survivors in the submerged wreckage.

    A video showing numerous vessels approaching the apparent crash site has been posted. No survivors can be seen in the footage.

    The first images purportedly showing debris scattered in the sea have appeared on social media.

    Photos circulating on social media also appear to show passenger belongings and torn pieces of the plane's fuselage recovered by the rescuers.

    The plane had a "technical issue" on a previous flight, which "had been resolved according to procedure," Edward Sirait, the chief executive of Lion Air Group, said. However, he declined to specify the nature of the problem.

    Flight JT610 is operated by a Boeing-737 Max 8, capable of seating up to 210 passengers. It is one of the newest Boeing models, which just entered service in May 2017. Flightradar24 says that the plane was delivered to Lion Air in August.

    Comment: Soerjanto Thanjono, chief of Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee, told reporters at a news briefing that the weather was sunny in the general area and had not been a problem, The New York Times reported.

    ...

    From Jim Stone:

    Indonesian airline crash:

    I moved my first post on this topic to the top because it is the most important post, the subsequent posts which are now below it explain the technical details and how it actually happened.

    INDONESIAN AIR CRASH PROBABLE REMOTE HIJACK, VIDEO RECOVERED FROM WRECKAGE

    An Indonesian lion air flight on a brand new 737 - 8 was likely remote hijacked and slammed into the ocean with 20 usury forbidding finance ministry officials aboard. The entire thing was captured on video by a passenger, including screaming engines, erratic flight, proof there was no on board hijacking and final full throttle death dive into the ocean that shattered the plane into tiny pieces. This video is speculated to have been recovered from an SD card in the debris by a tug boat crew and was promptly posted online. There is little question this was a remote hijacking to kill the finance ministry of Indonesia. The only question with this is how the video made it to the public, some people are speculating it was via the aircraft wifi and others are speculating it was taken from the debris and if so, I am speculating it was a tug boat crew that recovered it because they were the first on scene and would not have kept this hidden the way the FBI would have.

    If you want to see the first recorded remote hijack destruction of a passenger jet to make it to the public, a video that the assassins without question never expected to have surface, (especially so quickly)

    HERE IT IS, this will likely be banned post haste, anyone who can save this SAVE IT.


    To fully explain the Indonesian air line crash post below, and why it was a probable remote hijack:

    If it was a wing flap or vertical stabilizer failure, the plane would have been turning as it crashed. It flew straight. It was therefore not a wing flap or vertical stabilizer problem. If it was a horizontal stabilizer problem, the plane would have either looped or nose dived to it's death instantly. It did not. it instead gained and lost elevation erratically. Therefore an actual problem with the horizontal stabilizer is unlikely. If the plane stalled it would not have smashed into a million pieces after descending many times free fall speed. It did smash into a million pieces after descending many times free fall speed. ANSWER THEN: FULL THROTTLE DIVE. Gee, how would that happen? Read the reports below!
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  2. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (29th October 2018), Bill Ryan (29th October 2018), BMJ (10th May 2019), Did You See Them (29th October 2018), Flash (29th October 2018), genevieve (29th October 2018), GMB1961 (29th October 2018), Ivanhoe (29th October 2018), Jad (29th October 2018), jjjones (30th October 2018), Magnus (31st October 2018), silvanelf (28th June 2019), Sophocles (29th October 2018), Valerie Villars (28th November 2018)

  3. Link to Post #2
    England Avalon Member Did You See Them's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th October 2015
    Age
    54
    Posts
    692
    Thanks
    2,451
    Thanked 3,911 times in 641 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    So the video was recovered from an sd card that was recovered from a phone from one of the passengers bodies and NOT uploaded whilst still in flight !
    Seems very fortuitous and quick - rather like finding the passports from the 911 highjackers !

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Did You See Them For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (29th October 2018), Hervé (29th October 2018)

  5. Link to Post #3
    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,766
    Thanks
    60,316
    Thanked 95,039 times in 15,475 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Fatal flaw made Lion Air flight nosedive 20+ times before deadly crash in Indonesia, report finds

    RT
    Published time: 28 Nov, 2018 09:11
    Get short URL


    Captain Nurcahyo Utomo of the Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee during a news conference in Jakarta, Indonesia. © Darren Whiteside / Reuters

    Pilots of the Indonesian Lion Air flight desperately fought against a flaw in the packed Boeing 737 as faulty anti-stall sensors repeatedly sent the plane nosediving before it plunged into the Java Sea, the investigation shows.

    The angle-of-attack (AOA) sensors measure how well the plane’s nose is positioned against the oncoming air. During the journey of Lion Air Flight 610, the sensors malfunctioned, automatically pushing the aircraft’s nose down two dozen times in the span of just 10 minutes, the preliminary report of Indonesia’s National Transport Safety Committee (KNKT) found.

    Each time the flawed system directed the plane downwards, the pilots had to struggle, manually pushing the nose back up again. “The pilots fought continuously until the end of the flight,” Captain Nurcahyo Utomo of the KNKT said.

    The doomed plane suffered the same sensor malfunction during a previous flight, but that time the crew solved the problem by switching the system off early in the trip. The officials noted that the aircraft was “not airworthy.”


    A turbine engine of the crashed Lion Air flight 610 is being lifted at in Jakarta, Indonesia. © Beawiharta / Reuters

    The Boeing 737 Max 8 jet crashed into the Java Sea on October 29 shortly after takeoff from the airport in the nation’s capital of Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

    The preliminary report relies on data recovered from the plane’s onboard flight recorder. The cockpit voice recorder, however, is still to be located, so it is too early to determine the exact causes of the crash, Indonesian state investigators stressed.
    They also asked Lion Air to update its operational manuals in order to improve the airline’s “safety culture.”

    The disaster in Indonesia raised questions on whether Boeing’s newest 737 Max series truly lives up to its previously flawless safety record. Following the crash, the company issued an operational bulletin, directing pilots on how to deal with “erroneous input” from the sensors.

    The warning was followed by the US Federal Aviation Administration, which sent out its own emergency directive on Boeing’s best-selling 737 Max series. It alerted the airlines that “erroneous input” from the plane’s AOA sensors “can potentially make the horizontal stabilizers repeatedly pitch the nose of the airplane downward.”

    Related:
    MAXimized danger: Are 200+ new Boeing 737s plagued with glitch that led to crash in Indonesia?
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (28th November 2018), Bill Ryan (28th November 2018), BMJ (10th May 2019), Satori (28th November 2018), seko (28th November 2018), Sophocles (28th November 2018), tessie999 (18th March 2019)

  7. Link to Post #4
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,444
    Thanks
    74,639
    Thanked 269,962 times in 19,929 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Did You See Them (here)
    So the video was recovered from an SD card that was recovered from a phone from one of the passengers bodies and NOT uploaded whilst still in flight !
    Seems very fortuitous and quick - rather like finding the passports from the 911 highjackers !
    Just a note for the record. The video is here, but multiple YouTube commenters have pointed out that
    1. It's from a different flight (where there was severe turbulence, but no crash)
    2. The wings are a different color
    3. Oxygen masks were deployed, which wouldn't have happened at a low altitude.

  8. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    avid (28th November 2018), BMJ (10th May 2019), Did You See Them (28th November 2018), Hervé (28th November 2018), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Magnus (30th November 2018), Satori (28th November 2018), seko (28th November 2018), Sophocles (17th March 2019), Sunny (18th March 2019), Tintin (17th March 2019), Valerie Villars (28th November 2018), Yoda (28th November 2018)

  9. Link to Post #5
    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,766
    Thanks
    60,316
    Thanked 95,039 times in 15,475 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer

    by Tyler Durden
    Sun, 03/17/2019 - 11:55

    The following tweets from Trevor Sumner, CEO of Perch Experience, of what really happened to the Boeing 737 Max, may be one of the best summaries of the events that led to the two recent airplane crashes, and also why Boeing's "software upgrade" response is a farce.


    Quote
    Trevor Sumner @trevorsumner

    1of x: BEST analysis of what really is happening on the #Boeing737Max issue from my brother in law @davekammeyer, who’s a pilot, software engineer & deep thinker. Bottom line don’t blame software that’s the band aid for many other engineering and economic forces in effect.

    2,642

    5:04 PM - Mar 16, 2019 · Brooklyn, NY
    1,879 people are talking about this

    Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

    1of x: BEST analysis of what really is happening on the #Boeing737Max issue from my brother in law @davekammeyer, who’s a pilot, software engineer & deep thinker. Bottom line don’t blame software that’s the band aid for many other engineering and economic forces in effect.

    55 replies 2,011 retweets 2,904 likes

    Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner

    Some people are calling the 737MAX tragedies a #software failure. Here's my response: It's not a software problem. It was an * Economic problem that the 737 engines used too much fuel, so they decided to install more efficient engines with bigger fans and make the 737MAX.

    8:04 AM - 16 Mar 2019 from Brooklyn, NY
    22 replies 354 retweets 562 likes


    New conversation
    Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

    This led to an * Airframe problem. They wanted to use the 737 airframe for economic reasons, but needed more ground clearance with bigger engines.The 737 design can't be practically modified to have taller main landing gear. The solution was to mount them higher & more forward.
    • 1 reply 38 retweets 152 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      This led to an * Aerodynamic problem. The airframe with the engines mounted differently did not have adequately stable handling at high AoA to be certifiable. Boeing decided to create the MCAS system to electronically correct for the aircraft's handling deficiencies.

      3 replies 43 retweets 162 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      During the course of developing the MCAS, there was a * Systems engineering problem. Boeing wanted the simplest possible fix that fit their existing systems architecture, so that it required minimal engineering rework, and minimal new training for pilots and maintenance crews.

      2 replies 36 retweets 159 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      The easiest way to do this was to add some features to the existing Elevator Feel Shift system. Like the #EFS system, the #MCAS relies on non-redundant sensors to decide how much trim to add. Unlike the EFS system, MCAS can make huge nose down trim changes.

      3 replies 36 retweets 147 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      On both ill-fated flights, there was a: * Sensor problem. The AoA vane on the 737MAX appears to not be very reliable and gave wildly wrong readings. On #LionAir, this was compounded by a

      2 replies 32 retweets 143 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      * Maintenance practices problem. The previous crew had experienced the same problem and didn't record the problem in the maintenance logbook. This was compounded by a:

      1 reply 31 retweets 132 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      * Pilot training problem. On LionAir, pilots were never even told about the MCAS, and by the time of the Ethiopian flight, there was an emergency AD issued, but no one had done sim training on this failure. This was compounded by an:

      1 reply 34 retweets 144 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      * Economic problem. Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.

      17 replies 66 retweets 232 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      All of this was compounded by a: * Pilot expertise problem. If the pilots had correctly and quickly identified the problem and run the stab trim runaway checklist, they would not have crashed.

      6 replies 32 retweets 146 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      Nowhere in here is there a software problem. The computers & software performed their jobs according to spec without error. The specification was just ****ty. Now the quickest way for Boeing to solve this mess is to call up the software guys to come up with another band-aid.

      19 replies 83 retweets 303 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      I'm a software engineer, and we're sometimes called on to fix the deficiencies of mechanical or aero or electrical engineering, because the metal has already been cut or the molds have already been made or the chip has already been fabed, and so that problem can't be solved.

      4 replies 51 retweets 267 likes

      Trevor Sumner‏ @trevorsumner Mar 16

      But the software can always be pushed to the update server or reflashed. When the software band-aid comes off in a 500mph wind, it's tempting to just blame the band-aid. Follow @davekammeyer if you want to dig in.

      28 replies 78 retweets 520 likes
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  10. The Following 17 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    aoibhghaire (17th March 2019), avid (18th March 2019), Bill Ryan (17th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), bojancan (17th March 2019), Flash (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), meeradas (17th March 2019), Philippe (17th March 2019), Ron Mauer Sr (10th August 2019), Satori (10th August 2019), seko (17th March 2019), Sophocles (17th March 2019), Star Mariner (7th May 2019), Sunny (18th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019), Tintin (17th March 2019)

  11. Link to Post #6
    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,766
    Thanks
    60,316
    Thanked 95,039 times in 15,475 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Ethiopian Airlines crash: What we know about the Boeing 737 MAX tragedy and what comes next

    World Reuters Mar 17, 2019 09:38:48 IST

    Reuters: More than 300 Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 passenger jets around the world have been taken out of service following two fatal crashes over the past five months in Ethiopia and Indonesia that killed almost 350 people in all.

    The causes of both crashes are still under investigation. One of the biggest unanswered questions: Was the plane’s software to blame?

    What we know
    — Boeing has stopped delivery of all new MAX jets to its customers.

    — Satellite data gathered from the Ethiopian Airlines flight and evidence from the crash site showed similarities with a Lion Air accident in Indonesia, which prompted the US Federal Aviation Administration to ground all Boeing MAX jets in service.


    Representational image. Reuters
    — Investigators have found a piece of a stabiliser in the wreckage of the Ethiopian jet with the trim set in an unusual position similar to that of the Lion Air plane, two sources familiar with the matter said.

    — The pilot of the Ethiopian Airlines flight had reported internal control problems and received permission to return. The pilot of the Lion Air flight had also asked to return not long after taking off from Jakarta.

    — Technical analysis of the black boxes from the crashed Ethiopian Airlines jet is underway in France. It will take several days to complete the first readings from the boxes, French aviation officials said. The US National Transportation Safety Board is sending investigators to assist and an Ethiopian team arrived in Paris on Friday.

    — The Ethiopian Airlines plane requested permission to return to Addis Ababa airport three minutes after takeoff as it accelerated to abnormal speed, the New York Times reported.

    — Indonesia plans to move up by about a month the release of an investigation report on the Lion Air crash, which killed all 189 on board, its transport safety committee said on Friday. It now plans to release the report between July and August, ahead of its previous schedule of between August and September.

    — Following the Lion Air crash in October, Boeing said it was preparing a software upgrade for the jets. After the Ethiopia crash, the company said it would deploy that upgrade across the fleet in the coming weeks.

    — Boeing maintains its new, fuel-efficient jets are safe, but supported the FAA decision to ground them. Fearing a financial hit and brand damage, investors have wiped about $26 billion off the company’s market value.

    — US lawmakers said the planes could be grounded for weeks to upgrade the software and install it in every plane.

    — Boeing plans to release upgraded software for its 737 MAX in a week to 10 days, sources familiar with the matter said on 16 March.

    — No lawsuits have been filed since the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, but some plaintiffs’ lawyers said they expect that Boeing will be sued in the United States.
    What's next?
    — Investigators are expected to release a preliminary report based on information they glean from the data and cockpit recordings captured by the two black boxes.

    — Ethiopian Airlines said on 16 March that DNA testing of the remains of the passengers may take up to six months.

    — A decision will be made by countries about whether and when to lift the grounding of the Boeing jets based on that information.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  12. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    avid (17th March 2019), Bill Ryan (17th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), Flash (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), Satori (17th March 2019), seko (17th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019)

  13. Link to Post #7
    Germany Avalon Member
    Join Date
    31st May 2010
    Location
    SW Germany
    Age
    64
    Posts
    1,718
    Thanks
    2,304
    Thanked 8,682 times in 1,615 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    I think we can all assume someone on this flight was highly controversial and needed to be eliminated (at the expense of other innocent passengers)- but WHO?-

    any answers anyone?

    Larry

  14. Link to Post #8
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,444
    Thanks
    74,639
    Thanked 269,962 times in 19,929 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Cardillac (here)
    I think we can all assume someone on this flight was highly controversial and needed to be eliminated (at the expense of other innocent passengers)- but WHO?-

    any answers anyone?

    Larry
    Well, it was an accident (in fact, two of them, seemingly nearly identical, plus at least one near miss with tragedy avoided by the pilots), caused by something VERY badly wrong tangled up in a complex series of factors that just hadn't been anticipated or planned for. But the culpability is clearly with Boeing.

    The Zero Hedge article Hervé posted above, featuring a concise step-by-step analysis by Trevor Sumner, seems really pretty compelling.

  15. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    avid (18th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), Hervé (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), seko (17th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019), Tintin (17th March 2019), Yoda (18th March 2019)

  16. Link to Post #9
    United States Avalon Retired Member
    Join Date
    4th January 2011
    Location
    North Texas
    Age
    72
    Posts
    27,723
    Thanks
    28,846
    Thanked 129,174 times in 20,635 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    The following tweets from Trevor Sumner, CEO of Perch Experience, of what really happened to the Boeing 737 Max, may be one of the best summaries of the events that led to the two recent airplane crashes, and also why Boeing's "software upgrade" response is a farce.
    Quote
    This led to an * Airframe problem. They wanted to use the 737 airframe for economic reasons, but needed more ground clearance with bigger engines.The 737 design can't be practically modified to have taller main landing gear. The solution was to mount them higher & more forward. 28 replies 78 retweets 520 likes
    The following LA Times article does a good, clear, job of explaining the problems with putting larger engines on the 737, which has its engines unusually close to the ground:
    How a 50-year-old design came back to haunt Boeing with its troubled 737 Max jet

  17. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Paul For This Post:

    avid (18th March 2019), Bill Ryan (17th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), Hervé (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), seko (17th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019)

  18. Link to Post #10
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,444
    Thanks
    74,639
    Thanked 269,962 times in 19,929 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    The following tweets from Trevor Sumner, CEO of Perch Experience, of what really happened to the Boeing 737 Max, may be one of the best summaries of the events that led to the two recent airplane crashes, and also why Boeing's "software upgrade" response is a farce.
    Quote
    This led to an * Airframe problem. They wanted to use the 737 airframe for economic reasons, but needed more ground clearance with bigger engines.The 737 design can't be practically modified to have taller main landing gear. The solution was to mount them higher & more forward. 28 replies 78 retweets 520 likes
    The following LA Times article does a good, clear, job of explaining the problems with putting larger engines on the 737, which has its engines unusually close to the ground:
    How a 50-year-old design came back to haunt Boeing with its troubled 737 Max jet
    Yes, good LA times article.

    I've been reading the very interesting 70+ comments, too. Learning quite a lot. It does seem Boeing are in deep trouble here, legally, financially, or both.

  19. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    BMJ (10th May 2019), Constance (17th March 2019), Hervé (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019), Yoda (18th March 2019)

  20. Link to Post #11
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,444
    Thanks
    74,639
    Thanked 269,962 times in 19,929 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    I've been reading the very interesting 70+ comments, too.
    My favorite so far:
    Everyone is anxiously awaiting the introduction of self-driving cars. What could go wrong?

  21. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    anandacate (18th March 2019), avid (18th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), Constance (17th March 2019), Hervé (17th March 2019), justntime2learn (17th March 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), seko (17th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019), Valerie Villars (6th May 2019), Yoda (18th March 2019)

  22. Link to Post #12
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th February 2010
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    21,444
    Thanks
    74,639
    Thanked 269,962 times in 19,929 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    I've been reading the very interesting 70+ comments, too.
    My favorite so far:
    Everyone is anxiously awaiting the introduction of self-driving cars. What could go wrong?
    And maybe the most thought-provoking one:
    We are entering the era of the robots being allowed to kill us in the name of progress. It is true that aircraft fatalities over the last 20 years have sharply declined and it is also true that automation is the main reason why. The robots are smarter than we are, except when they're not.

    And that's when we die so that they can get better. Same thing is going on with driverless cars. Once that technology is perfected, roadway fatalities will plummet. But to get to that point, we are going to kill people to get the bugs ironed out. Welcome to the modern world.

  23. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    anandacate (18th March 2019), avid (18th March 2019), BMJ (10th May 2019), Didgevillage (7th May 2019), Hervé (17th March 2019), Hym (17th March 2019), Operator (6th May 2019), raregem (6th May 2019), Rosemarie (18th March 2019), seko (17th March 2019), sunwings (20th March 2019), tessie999 (18th March 2019), Valerie Villars (6th May 2019), Yoda (18th March 2019)

  24. Link to Post #13
    Japan Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    21st March 2019
    Posts
    315
    Thanks
    218
    Thanked 609 times in 227 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Just a software failure?
    Give me a break. The design of the whole plane was flawed.

    If it's just a software issue, how come all these planes are grounded for so long (with nothing being done to them)?

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 6th May 2019 at 12:58. Reason: embedded the video

  25. Link to Post #14
    Japan Unsubscribed
    Join Date
    21st March 2019
    Posts
    315
    Thanks
    218
    Thanked 609 times in 227 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    I watched Australian "60 minutes" and posted it above. The popular program in Australia repeatedly stressed "software failure" which I found very suspicious.

    But today Jim Stone has this to say (jimstone.is):

    "Interesting: After 737 fiasco, Boeing is replacing human workers with robots.
    I still strongly suspect the planes went down because the fuselage failed. That would trick a sensor into believing the plane was at the wrong pitch (when it bent)
    Remember, the original reports out of Ethiopia said the plane was dropping papers and clothes before it hit. That would mean the fuselage failed. The masks would not have deployed because in both cases the plane was low enough, and there was not enough time for the pilots to figure out what really happened. But Boeing probably knows. There's no way out of this no matter how much it is denied and not reported. If it was dropping stuff on the way down, it crashed due to fuselage failure, PERIOD. How would a "level sensor" deal with having it's reference - the fuselage - crack open and bend? What is a "level sensor" going to do when it's reference is off? Obviously it will try to change the elevation of the plane as the broken fuselage flaps up and down, giving it an ever changing reference. And that's the only way the plane could have been dropping clothes and papers before it hit the ground, which witnesses on the ground said happened.
    And Boeing is, as a result, going to replace human workers with machines. Not 50 workers, or a few hundred, THOUSANDS. Why would they do that? Here's a reason: because despite all the little check boxes on paper - ensuring the fuselage went together right - it did not go together right.

    I think they are doing this because the workers screwed up the construction process, and they know it. And like I said during my original Boeing rip, it was immigrant workers that did that particular version of the 737.

    QUESTION: What would a liberal scum bag do to avoid having to bring back a work force that was ALL WHITE with ZERO third world immigrants, to avoid having another disaster product? They hate whitie, plus can never admit they were wrong, so robots it will be."

  26. Link to Post #15
    United States Avalon Member onevoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    169
    Thanks
    3,928
    Thanked 1,067 times in 161 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    There has been several reports that another defect in the Boeing 737 MAX has been discovered by FAA. It appears that Boeing's trouble with 737 MAX won't end anytime soon. Southwest and United Airlines will extend 737 MAX flights cancellations. It's incredible to me how Boeing was able to get away with certifying 737 MAX as safe when it at least knew about the MCAS problems long ago. Like many other federal agencies, FAA seems compromised as well and not always serving the public's interest.
    A software fix has been ready for months, though the FAA had not yet flight-tested Boeing’s solution. But this week, the FAA discovered another potential flaw in the 737 Max’s computer system. The agency found that “data processing by a flight computer on the jetliner could cause the plane to dive in a way that pilots had difficulty recovering from in simulator tests,” according to Bloomberg.

  27. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to onevoice For This Post:

    aoibhghaire (29th June 2019), Bill Ryan (28th June 2019), Hervé (28th June 2019), meeradas (29th June 2019)

  28. Link to Post #16
    United States Avalon Member onevoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    6th February 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    169
    Thanks
    3,928
    Thanked 1,067 times in 161 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Boeing's trouble keeps growing with their newer planes. The Seattle Times is reporting that the DOJ is expanding its probe of the 737 MAX to include the 787 Dreamliner. I've read of many Boeing personnel reporting subpar work being performed on the 787 Dreamliner plane around the time of the Ethiopian Airline accident.
    Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work, according to two sources familiar with the investigation.

    DOJ probe expands beyond Boeing 737 MAX, includes 787 Dreamliner

    Visitors, executives and some of the 6,000 factory workers watch as the first 787 Dreamliner assembled at Boeing’s factory in... (Mike Siegel / The Seattle Times)

    By Steve Miletich
    Seattle Times staff reporter

    Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work, according to two sources familiar with the investigation.

    The subpoena was issued by the Department of Justice (DOJ), the sources said. DOJ is also conducting a criminal investigation into the certification and design of the 737 MAX after two deadly crashes of that jetliner.

    The 787 subpoena significantly widens the scope of the DOJ’s scrutiny of safety issues at Boeing.

    The two sources who revealed the subpoena spoke on condition of anonymity because of the confidential nature of the inquiries.

    A third source said a handful of subpoenas were issued in early June to individual employees at Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner production plant in North Charleston, South Carolina.

    DOJ spokesman Peter Carr, in Washington, D.C., declined to comment Friday. A Boeing spokesman said, “We don’t comment on legal matters.”

    It wasn’t clear if the subpoena served on the company was issued by the same prosecutors overseeing the 737 MAX investigation. But the third source, also speaking on condition of anonymity because of the confidentiality of the inquiries, said the subpoenas to employees at the South Carolina plant came from the “same group” of prosecutors involved in the 737 MAX investigation, including DOJ trial attorneys Cory Jacobs and Carol Sipperly in the Fraud Section.

    Boeing divides its Dreamliner production between the South Carolina assembly plant, which rolled out its first plane in 2012, and the sprawling Everett facility where it has built jets for decades. The 737 MAX is built in Renton.

    Federal prosecutors in Washington, D.C., have been looking into the development of the 737 MAX, including a new flight-safety control system known as MCAS, after one crash on Oct. 29 off Indonesia and another in Ethiopia on March 10. Those disasters killed 346 people and led to worldwide grounding of the plane.

    The grand-jury investigation into the MAX has been cloaked in secrecy, but some of the Justice Department’s activities have become known as prosecutors issued subpoenas for documents. The Department of Transportation’s Inspector General and the FBI are working with the DOJ.

    A Seattle Times story in March detailed how Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process for the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA.

    Allegations relating to the 787 Dreamliner have centered on shoddy work and cutting corners at the company’s South Carolina plant.

    The grand-jury investigation into the MAX has been cloaked in secrecy, but some of the Justice Department’s activities have become known as prosecutors issued subpoenas for documents. The Department of Transportation’s Inspector General and the FBI are working with the DOJ.

    A Seattle Times story in March detailed how Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process for the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA.

    While there are differences in the 737 and 787 matters, prosecutors are likely looking into whether broad cultural problems run throughout the company, according to the third source and a person in South Carolina, who also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the matter.

    That could include pressure to sign off on faulty work to avoid delays in delivering planes to customers, the source said.

    The New York Times reported in April that the North Charleston plant has been plagued by production issues and weak oversight that threatened to compromise safety.

    Production ran years behind schedule, due to manufacturing and supplier problems, before the plane entered service in 2011.

    The newspaper, citing a review of hundreds of pages of internal emails, corporate documents and federal records, as well as interviews with current and former employees, described a culture that often valued production speed over quality. Confronting manufacturing delays at the plant, Boeing pushed its workforce to quickly turn out Dreamliners, at times ignoring issues raised by employees, the newspaper reported.

    The Dreamliner, introduced in 2007 and billed as Boeing’s most important new plane in a generation, featured lightweight carbon-fiber fuselage and advanced technology.

    Initially assembled just in Everett, it was popular with airlines, prompting Boeing to break ground on a second Dreamliner plant in 2009 in South Carolina, which has the lowest percentage of union members of any state in the country.

    Last year the Everett plant produced 55% of the 145 Dreamliners that Boeing delivered, while the South Carolina factory delivered the rest. The biggest 787, the -10 model, is assembled only in South Carolina.

    The entire fleet was grounded in January 2013 after two battery-overheating incidents: a battery fire on an empty 787 parked at the gate at Boston airport, then a smoldering battery on a flight in Japan that forced an emergency landing. The FAA lifted the grounding in April 2013 after Boeing modified the jets with beefed-up batteries, containment boxes and venting tubes.

    In the 737 MAX investigation, prosecutors appear to be getting information from someone with inside knowledge of the plane’s development based on the questions they are asking, the third source said.

    That investigation was opened after the first crash, a highly unusual step for prosecutors after one crash, prompting speculation that someone had come forward with information, the source said.

    Still, prosecutors appear to be trying to figure out whether a crime occurred, given the general scope of their questions, the source said.

    Prosecutors will be looking for any evidence of the “hallmarks of classic fraud” — misrepresentation to federal regulators and customers, one of the sources said, comparing the investigation to the Justice Department’s probe of Volkswagen that led to criminal charges in an emissions scandal.

    In 2017, Volkswagen pleaded guilty to three criminal felony counts and agreed to pay a $2.8 billion criminal penalty as a result of the company’s scheme to sell diesel vehicles in the U.S. by cheating on emissions tests mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board.

    Boeing has not been charged with any crime related to the 737 crashes or the 787 production.

    Steve Miletich: 206-464-3302 or smiletich@seattletimes.com; on Twitter: @stevemiletich.
    Last edited by onevoice; 29th June 2019 at 05:01. Reason: added full article from The Seattle Times

  29. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to onevoice For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (10th August 2019), Bill Ryan (10th August 2019), Franny (10th August 2019), Hervé (29th June 2019), meeradas (29th June 2019), silver birch (10th August 2019)

  30. Link to Post #17
    Australia Avalon Member BMJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th May 2010
    Posts
    1,306
    Thanks
    36,513
    Thanked 5,875 times in 1,149 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Report: Boeing 787 Code Left Unprotected on Public Server
    A new report by Wired Magazine revealed that Boeing accidentally left important code for its 737 and 787 aircraft on a publicly accessible server.

    Quote:
    "Cybersecurity expert Ruben Santamarta of Madrid claims that he was able to access code designed to run the 737 and 787 Boeing airliners. According to a report by Wired Magazine, Santamarta found important code for Boeing’s aircraft on an unprotected server on the company’s network, available to anyone and not requiring special access to read.

    Santamarta claims that the code reveals a security flaw in the 787 Dreamliner line. According to Santamarta, this security flaw could potentially allow a hacker to access the flight control system."

    Link: https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2019/...public-server/
    Last edited by BMJ; 10th August 2019 at 12:59.
    In hoc signo vinces / In this sign thou shalt conquer

  31. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to BMJ For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (10th August 2019), Bill Ryan (10th August 2019), Cara (10th August 2019), Franny (10th August 2019), Hervé (10th August 2019), silver birch (10th August 2019)

  32. Link to Post #18
    France Administrator Hervé's Avatar
    Join Date
    7th March 2011
    Location
    Brittany
    Posts
    16,766
    Thanks
    60,316
    Thanked 95,039 times in 15,475 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    ^^^



    ... why did I immediately thought that the above is a controlled leak so as to blame the software developers and redirect attention away from technical, engineering defects... see this article (<---)
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

  33. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Hervé For This Post:

    Ba-ba-Ra (10th August 2019), BMJ (3rd September 2019), Franny (10th August 2019), silver birch (10th August 2019)

  34. Link to Post #19
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    24th June 2013
    Posts
    1,369
    Thanks
    843
    Thanked 3,857 times in 1,120 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    I am glad of the opportunity to make a statement about the Boeing Max 8 and 9 and their quick fix design failure, quick switch and refix with computer software. If that software can EVER FAIL, which it can, especially mounted outside where lightening and weather can kill it, pilot oversight can fail to monitor and respond to it, etc., it should not be the way to fix an OBVIOUS FIXUP AERONAUTICAL DESIGN WHICH IS FAULTY. THE PLANES SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT OF USE BEFORE THEY KILL EVERYONE AND BRING DOWN BOEING FOR GOOD AND EVER. A stitch in time is required, because if they keep on with the fix..a...fix..a..fix, they are going to fix themselves out of business forever. This, in the slim hope that the head brass at Boeing will see it.

  35. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to amor For This Post:

    BMJ (3rd September 2019), Franny (10th August 2019)

  36. Link to Post #20
    United States Avalon Guide: Here to help
     
    Ron Mauer Sr's Avatar
    Join Date
    5th January 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Age
    77
    Posts
    1,931
    Thanks
    12,582
    Thanked 15,107 times in 1,867 posts

    Default Re: Boeing Mega Troubles with its 737 MAX 8 Overriding Nose Dive Crashes

    Software development for aviation must be tested and verified in compliance with DO-178. The FAA must approve the facility developing the software. Verification should be vigorous by actual testing when possible or by code inspections (not preferred). An update to software has the potential to crash the system dependent upon how robust the software has been designed.

    As a Software Quality Assurance Engineer, for two different manufacturers, I have witnessed the pressure for shipping incompletely tested software many times, although no mission critical problems were known.

    Management wanted me to be an insulator for them. They did not want to be accountable if something went wrong. Yet management would sometimes authorize shipment because the software had to be installed before a ship left port.

    Comments I've heard in team meetings by Program Managers:
    "Ship the software anyway and let the customer pay to fix the problems."
    "If you do not sign approval you will force the engineers to work through the Christmas holidays."
    "You are not a team player."

    It was a stressful job. Walking back to my desk, I asked myself a question. "Why have I chosen this experience?"

    Immediately I heard an inner voice, "To learn how to deal with powerful people."

    If there are any Quality Assurance people here, always keep good records. Sometimes the best one can do is put "Approved pending resolution of identified issues." The Quality Assurance role is to identify and report problems. Only management can authorize expenditures to fix the problems. Quality Assurance cannot fix the problems.
    OK I am off my soap box. Sometimes the unpleasant memories surface.

    I expect this kind of a problem is almost everywhere.
    Last edited by Ron Mauer Sr; 11th August 2019 at 00:38.

  37. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Ron Mauer Sr For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (11th August 2019), BMJ (3rd September 2019), Franny (10th August 2019), Hervé (10th August 2019), kfm27917 (10th August 2019), onevoice (11th August 2019), silver birch (10th August 2019)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts