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Thread: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    QAnon is an addiction.
    Many things can be addictions ... or not. Alcohol is a well known example. Sex, exercise, reading, eating, computer games, text messaging, crack cocaine, ... each can be addicting. Some of these can also be beneficial, even essential, some less so.
    Last edited by Paul; 1st November 2018 at 04:36.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Huge Richard Dolan fan here (whom I was turned onto initially from the original Project Camelot run with Bill and Kerry). Initially, when he first started showing Tracey in his clips, I was intrigued (she's a hottie...Go Richard!!). However, I wasn't expecting Tracey to be as front and center in his clips as she's now become. And while I think it's great that Richard is really putting himself out there with his Intelligent Disclosure series and his interviews with other top shelf people within the field (Joseph Farrell, David Paulides coming up, etc), I find it distasteful that he's now behind a paywall. Yes, of course he's free to make his own decisions, but methinks there could be some persuasion or sway held by others here.

    Dave - Toronto

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  5. Link to Post #43
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Strikes me as a quasi booking agent/SEO's. That site sucks, they shouldn't have launched it yet.

    I think I see Bill's concern, they're throwing gasoline on the signal/noise ratio fire that's been building. Being an SEO, money comes first. To do this you need to follow a kinda flow chart; content, which generates traffic, (which targets a) pre-sold audience, then you monetize via many many different avenues, then money is made. Money is the concern here, they don't give a **** about the content so long as it brings traffic.

    I often said these kinda topics are probably the easiest to gather a presold audience for a few reasons. This is a problem cause the folks with real info that needs to get out will reach a tiny audience, if any. And the thing is people don't always use logic when choosing who they follow. A scientist would lose a debate with a comedian every time. This genre of research will turn into entertainment. Frankly, I think it already is and some folks don't realize it. But the folks of this website do, and they want to get in now. Kinda like buying stock in Nike before they became big.

    Unfortunately I'm not aware of anything that can be done about this and it most likely will get worse.

    Sorry if I"m repeating what others have already said, didn't read all the posts.

    EDIT: Oh and another tidbit. Bill's 8k per month figure is a result of passion for what you do and having a unique product (in marketing terms), bringing something new to the table.

    Think about it; what ufo/alien interviews or documentaries did you see before camelot? That Fox Moon Hoax doc? Not much out there. So now if there's a facebook like platform you can just sign up and start posting and adding to the noise.

    I imagine they'll even 'advise' folks what to talk about. They'll phrase it like "what's your forte?" Then you say something like "spirituality." So they type that into SEO tools and see where the market is less saturated and point you in that direction. SO even if you don't know anything about it you can own that niche just cause you're good at SEO. Rinse, repeat.

    Thing is they'll have to have a massive amount of content to make any cash. So that means a massive amount of noise. They'll have to hope to sell products to make any real money cause 'infopreneurs' don't make much.
    Last edited by Strat; 1st November 2018 at 16:43. Reason: flow chart in wrong order
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Rachel:

    Bill, I’m right with you on this marketing issue, you’re absolutely correct, but Richard is free to make his own choices, that’s where you may be risking offence and perhaps what your dear friend is concerned about. To be clear, I know your intent and tone, I’m just not sure everyone will.
    and
    Quote Bill:

    It's a slow-motion, corrosive, weakening, cheapening, quality-diluting effect on all our work. As a whole. That's categorically what's happening. Think of that next time you tune into Jimmy Church (and listen to the whole show for every minute of the commercial-riddled 3 hours).

    It's a HUGE elephant in the room. It's like an infection in the community. Very few are immune. It's very worrying to me that so few can see it.
    But it's vitally important that folks learn to discern, isn't it? Otherwise everyone gets pulled down that sticky greasy slope? Otherwise everything is for sale. Otherwise everything risks becoming at the service of 'the bottom line'.

    I agree that the whole money/commercial thing is an elephant in the room, one which is unfortunately at the core of our 'civilisation', especially in the West, predicated on need and greed. Like all addictive principles, it puts a kind of defensive wall around itself, with the aim that no one can go near it, nor even name it, much less question it.

    But IMO it's vital that we DO go near it, that we DO name it. That we give folks the opportunity to see it for what it is.

    Thank you Bill, for lancing this boil, and for not backing down over it.

    x

    M

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  9. Link to Post #45
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    QAnon is an addiction.
    Many things can be addictions ... or not. Alcohol is a well known example. Sex, exercise, reading, eating, computer games, text messaging, crack cocaine, ... each can be addicting. Some of these can also be beneficial, even essential, some less so.
    Yes, of course. I agree 100%. But the point I'm making here, and it needs to be expanded on (and I will, later) is that in all times past, addictions were to all those things that you mention above... with the exception of text messaging and computer games, which are new.

    Food, sex, alcohol, cocaine, endorphins when exercising. Those are all real physical things that affect our body chemistry.

    Even gambling, when you're physically rolling the dice, or watching the horses race in front of you. The excitement and uncertainty are adrenaline and dopamine hooks.

    Now, unreal things are affecting our body chemistry.

    The 'unreal' (meaning virtual, digital) world we engage with on the internet is now changing our brains and our habits, and our felt needs and desires. This has never happened before in the history of the human race. Like babies given a bunch of candy (or a few drops of whisky!), we have no defense.

    Seeing a wooden billboard advertising a diner or a gas station while you drive down the highway (useful information, often) isn't the same thing as being bombarded with SIGN-UP-HERE-FOR-OUR-FREE-NEWSLETTER popups when trying to find some information online, or hearing DON'T-FORGET-TO-LIKE-AND-SUBSCRIBE each time you watch any YouTube video made by almost anyone at all. (If you ever hear me say that on YouTube, then file a complaint. )

    Like me, like me, like me. Follow me, follow me, follow me. This has never happened before in all of civilization.

    And in the middle of all this, while we're wobbling and staggering around trying somehow to keep our personal balance, the marketeers are working hard to commercialize all this to further capitalize on our vulnerabilities.

    I do see a connection with what some people call archontic influence. Not getting too metaphysical here (the wrong thread!), but archontic influence (as defined I think very perceptively by Jay Weidner, who I salute for his work here) is all about fakery.

    The ever-so-tempting, alluring, illusion of value and quality, but it's actually all synthetic and unreal.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 1st November 2018 at 12:20.

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  11. Link to Post #46
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I WISH RICHARD DOLAN, LINDA MOULTON HOWE, JOSEPH FARREL READ THIS

    I gently disagree with you Bill, not on the addictive bottom line of social media and the net/facebook like in general, but truly, on a pure market strategy.

    Right now we are flooded with Corey's like stupidity, from all sides, full of people who do not know how to research, how to present, who are in only for the money or the agrandisement feeling (hey, ahah look at my videos, am I not great!).

    The market is a tiny one and the good ones like Richard Dolan, Farrel or Moulton Howe have about no more voice.

    When I see people I know, on my facebook page promoting Gaia and promoting Corey, I cringe - I do not swear in real life, but there I swear. Same when a presenter I know sells his books and I know he is a thief, because he has stolen me. When I told my friends on facebook who promote him, I also received a lawyer letter the kind of Corey's ways.
    I had to withdraw having no money for lawsuit defense.

    It make me real angry.

    In terms of market strategies, it is better to have the over hand and flood the market with good research, good presenters, honest people, not in only for the money.

    The market will get tired no way otherwise, however, our good ones will be at the forefront. The bad ones will find other strategies to keep or enhance their market shares, therefore the good ones have to strategize their marketing prior have to have a plan.

    In this stupid money makers world, you have to always keep your creativity working to be at the forefront before the dishonest people.

    If the good ones do not do it, they end up not having a voice at all.

    And the bad ones are truly very nasty. You have to keep your awareness up at all time.

    The problems are double they come when the good ones look at money only, when they are finally sold. Which happens - it did happen to a few good ones sometimes they are not even aware of having been sold up, they defend their selling up with all kinds of mental gymnastic justifying it (thinking of Kerry here). Up to them to keep their integrity up.

    the second problems are because the good ones do not plan their long term marketing strategies, forget it, they do not even plan the short terms ones. The bad ones do plan. The good ones have to plan too.

    Something has to be done to retake the market shares, this is how people get to be informed correctly.

    And it is not with writing books that it will happen (much too slow for today's market - and nobody reads anymore).
    Last edited by Flash; 1st November 2018 at 12:25.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by WalterBosley (here)
    Holy effing crap. Good catch. Do the otherwise smart people who sign with this outfit bother to look into who they're signing with?
    No people don't, they either do not have time or are plain good people.

    I have been fooled a few years ago by someone whom I worked for free for 3 months, thinking he would develop a very good software and give me share of his company(agreement signed) to learn, last week, that he misrepresented himself as a founder of a very successful company who had been sold later on for 35 millions.

    His credibility was without reproach right - well, I learned he had been a high level employee, but nothing else, certainly not the founder.

    I do not know what to do with this. His reputation is good, everybody believes him, and me I am miss nobody in comparison. How do you warn people?

    Those jerks are smart and talented. They make their living by fooling others. They eat our loosh, in these case our work and talents, in a very 3D manner. Can you imagine what exist higher up?
    I am sorry for the deception perpetrated against you. Did you wonder why the founder of a company that sold for 35 million would have you working for him for free? How did he explain why he wasn't paying you, if you don't mind me asking?

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  15. Link to Post #48
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by WalterBosley (here)
    Holy effing crap. Good catch. Do the otherwise smart people who sign with this outfit bother to look into who they're signing with?
    No people don't, they either do not have time or are plain good people.

    I have been fooled a few years ago by someone whom I worked for free for 3 months, thinking he would develop a very good software and give me share of his company(agreement signed) to learn, last week, that he misrepresented himself as a founder of a very successful company who had been sold later on for 35 millions.

    His credibility was without reproach right - well, I learned he had been a high level employee, but nothing else, certainly not the founder.

    I do not know what to do with this. His reputation is good, everybody believes him, and me I am miss nobody in comparison. How do you warn people?

    Those jerks are smart and talented. They make their living by fooling others. They eat our loosh, in these case our work and talents, in a very 3D manner. Can you imagine what exist higher up?
    I am sorry for the deception perpetrated against you. Did you wonder why the founder of a company that sold for 35 million would have you working for him for free? How did he explain why he wasn't paying you, if you don't mind me asking?
    Yes dear, I did wonder. The share agreement was quite standard for start ups, and looked good. Also, I am talented, above most on the market. And a past to show for. Third, I had investors for the guy if he would have been the true thing. He was taken seriously even by very very rich people until they made their research (which took a few months before I got their feedback). Those kind of investors are very subtle, the guy did not even know how much money they had.
    Last edited by Flash; 1st November 2018 at 12:31.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    After reading the response of Mr. Dolan I realize that I have become unbalanced by my focusing on those that I perceive to be dishonest and that lack integrity. I see that it is unfair to assume almost everyone would buckle under the strain of this type of business arrangement. I do, however believe that many will. I also agree and appreciate that people can change over the course of life experiences and should be given a chance.
    Last edited by peterpam; 1st November 2018 at 13:19.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I'm going to be honest, I was reviewing this thread here.
    Richard Dolan (yes, Richard Dolan) talks about women, sex, and his fear of failure

    From what I'm seeing Richard divorced the woman he had a family and kids with, and then starts sleeping around until he finds this hottie Tracey of whom he is now engaged or married to.

    So now, he needs a gig to make more money, a decision probably being influenced by his new girlfriend and or alimony and child support payments to his ex-wife and family.

    Now I don't want to seem like I'm judging Richard too hard. Richard looks great for his age and folks would be amazed what a little celebrity can do in so far as making you much more attractive to the opposite sex, even to the point of becoming pursued instead of being the pursuer.

    My point is that factors like these play largely into financial decisions. If Richard could have worked things out with his wife and stayed with his initial family things might be very different here.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Rachel (here)
    Richard is free to make his own choices, that’s where you may be risking offence and perhaps what your dear friend is concerned about.
    Of course. Everyone is. 100% absolutely not my call. Every person reading this is free to do whatever they wish.

    But where I want to take the discussion, I think, is into areas of compulsiveness, addiction, the way social media feeds on human weaknesses and vulnerabilities (often manifesting in the form of needs). And marketeers then feed on those, like hitchhikers on the weakness-exploiting trail.

    One of the things that's a REALLY hot button (which I never quite realized on the forum recently until a little too late!) is to home in on things that are addictions.

    QAnon is an addiction. That seems to me (and, I have to say, to quite a few others) an obvious fact. But telling people that...? OMG.

    You can become their enemy. No matter how it's packaged. It's like saying to someone who's an alcoholic: NOT "Hey, I think you're an addict", but "Wow, don't you have a lot of beer in your fridge?"

    That's NOT well-received. It's too close to the bone. The social media/ commercialization thing is in some ways fairly similar.

    Tell people they’re addicted to all their social media accounts — AND, because of that, they're being exploited and steered like mice in a maze, and some people among us are exploiting others, too, brother and sister exploiting brother and sister — and one might not be popular.

    ***

    Now it's getting late here, US time. I want to expand this conversation more tomorrow afternoon, if I can. I think it's extremely important. My challenge is to try to explain everything I feel I see very clearly without upsetting anyone. It might not be too easy, because I never want to unfairly or inappropriately upset a soul. Everyone who knows me knows that's true.

    If I have done, I do apologize. But I'm still going to tell the truth about what I see, as vividly and articulately as I can. I feel I have a duty to do that.

    I have a lot more to say about a number of things. Two themes that will be next up:
    • Alvin Toffler's prophetic and important 1970 book Future Shock. He predicted how within a couple of generations we hard-wired humans, with biology essentially unchanged for tens of thousands of years, would rapidly become stressed and overwhelmed by the information overload coming at us, faster and faster and faster, with widespread neuroses and breakdowns as a result.
    • Edward Bernays, the Godfather of modern marketing, manipulation and propaganda. And how the American government deployed sophisticated marketing techniques to feed the egos of the dangerous potential revolutionaries among the counter-culture of the 1970s, to tame and capture them so that they were no longer a threat to the establishment.
    I have so much appreciation for this post. Bill, please remember that you do not have the power to upset anyone. Each person chooses how they perceive things, and if someone is offended it is because they choose to be. Personally, when I am offended I know I need to look at myself because I am overly attached to something, whether it is a person, place, thing or an outcome .

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    [...]
    There's a co-dependency with many people on social media. The co-dependency isn't between them and their significant other. It's between them and the internet world.

    And marketeers jump on that to exploit it. And exploit US.

    We're the source of their income.

    You can't blame them. It's what they do. It's like asking a cat not to catch mice. They have to.
    [...]
    ... and... "they" know it:

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    [...]
    Where there is an audience for conspiracy theories, there’s money to be made. As one Q-skeptic, a YouTuber who goes by the name Unirock, recounted...
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    [...]
    In his interview with Posobiec and in the chat logs with Dreamcatcher, Microchip referred to the book “Q” by the Italian prankster/writer collective Luther Blissett, whom he referred to as “the Italian author guy.
    ” As a representative of the Wu Ming (Mandarin for “anonymous”) Foundation, an offshoot of the Luther Blissett collective, told BuzzFeed,

    “’Q’ is a disguised, oblique autobiography of the LBP. It is often described as Blissett’s ‘playbook,’ an ‘operations manual’ for cultural disruption.”

    [...]
    ... "they" have known it since Bernays (see "A Century of Self" campaign) because of this pervasive human condition:

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    QAnon has such a dangerous hold over its followers because it appeals to deeper, spiritual needs. Wu Ming provides incisive commentary:
    In certain ways, conspiracy theorists are in the same league as psychics, magicians, astrologists and gurus of pseudo-medicine: all these people work in the field of wonder…In doing this, they exploit human needs, because in our life we do need surprise, wonder, new angles from which looking [sic] at things and thinking we’re different. Conspiracy theorists provide all that, and channel the people’s anxiety on [sic] their lives into the belief in an all-explaining narrative.
    From Bernays to Cambridge Analytica and Media Matters with David Brock's well laid plan to bring down the whole of the Alt Media.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Kudos to Camelot and Avalon for making it purely on content that was appreciated and spread on a grassroots level. That was a fantastic job. Even with decent quality presentation.

    Not everybody is able to do this, though, as Gemma13 said, often investigators are just that and need help with the presentation.

    I have a very good friend who helps alternative healers with their websites, with the design and copyediting, so they attract more clients. They have the skills as healers, but not necessarily in communication or webdesign. What my friend does is marketing, it's a paid gig, and it helps the healers to increase their revenue, just as it helps their clients to become healthy. It's a win-win-win situation for everybody; marketing agent, healer and clients.

    Marketing is a tool that is not inherently good or bad. It's about how we use it.

    It's fair to assume that professional marketing agents in the alternative news arena are here to stay. The best we can do in this situation is to create an awareness of the opportunities and pitfalls and, if one is so inclined, to enter into the business ourselves in an ethical way—and simply outcompete less considerate businesses that will soon frustrate their clients. I do believe there is a way to use marketing tools to spread valuable information, reach a greater audience, solicit genuine support (without obnoxiously begging for it) and keep content free of charge.

    Historically, this all just started, so of course we're infants in how to deal with this. There are real dangers, and you're all rightfully pointing them out. But these dangers can be handled without having to reject any type of marketing entirely.

    (I find YT ads annoying, btw, but on channels that I like, I often let the whole damn thing run it course and may even click on it, because I know it means revenue for the channel without me having to do much for it.)

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by DNA (here)
    I'm going to be honest, I was reviewing this thread here.
    Richard Dolan (yes, Richard Dolan) talks about women, sex, and his fear of failure

    From what I'm seeing Richard divorced the woman he had a family and kids with, and then starts sleeping around until he finds this hottie Tracey of whom he is now engaged or married to.

    So now, he needs a gig to make more money, a decision probably being influenced by his new girlfriend and or alimony and child support payments to his ex-wife and family.

    Now I don't want to seem like I'm judging Richard too hard. Richard looks great for his age and folks would be amazed what a little celebrity can do in so far as making you much more attractive to the opposite sex, even to the point of becoming pursued instead of being the pursuer.

    My point is that factors like these play largely into financial decisions. If Richard could have worked things out with his wife and stayed with his initial family things might be very different here.
    Oh wow.....just listening to this 20 min clip now for the first time (WOW!). Also, I quite agree with your post above, DNA.

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I have to say that I find myself not wanting to comment here when I have to read that anyone trying to make money in our community is demonized. I wouldn't be able to put out the number of books that I do (which isn't that many) or research to the extent I'm able if I wasn't making some money on the effort. When you guys pay $15-$20 for one of my books, you get the following: my time in the field, in the library, online, my analysis, my written manuscript/report and hypotheses on what I've found. Yes, the raw info, phenomena, etc out there IS free for anyone to access -- BUT I've spent a LOT more than $15-$20 bringing my investigative analysis to you in a convenient book: in gasoline, airplane tickets, hours of my time in the library or online, plus the hours in analysis and writing. So when I find, for example, my books illegally (and immorally, I may remind the 'light and love' crowd...) posted as a PDF, wiping out half my income for six months because someone who 'respects my work and wants to share it with the world', it pisses me off and I wonder if I shouldn't sign with someone to protect the fruits of my labor, too, especially if they get me a bigger audience willing to show me the respect for my time and effort. I'm not trying to rain on the parade here but consider our perspective as researchers/authors and indie publishers, as is my case. When Pursuing X proves to have been a sham or bad player, then I will join the fray -- but never from the perspective of being critical of any researcher trying to make a decent living doing what he or she loves the most.

    Just saying what needs to be kept in mind.
    Last edited by WalterBosley; 2nd November 2018 at 02:46.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Hi Walter,

    What gives me reason for pause is that Richard never used to be behind a paywall (it was never about the money)...and now all of a sudden 15 - 20 years later he is.

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Hey, Walter:

    No-one (certainly not me ) is saying you shouldn't make money as an author to compensate you for the time you spend, the investments you make, and the value you add.

    An interesting question, for anyone promoting themselves on social media, is how far one goes, and what ethical (or qualitative) corners one might cut, to do that.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 2nd November 2018 at 02:53.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    Hi Walter,

    What gives me reason for pause is that Richard never used to be behind a paywall (it was never about the money)...and now all of a sudden 15 - 20 years later he is.

    Dave - Toronto
    Yes, the paywall thing is interesting.

    Here's the Socratean question. I'd like EVERYONE reading this to answer this for themselves.

    Should I put half of Avalon behind a paywall — only half! — so that paid-up members will then have access to twice as much content?

    If not, why not?

    Be reassured: I am NOT going to do this.

    But Walter: do you think I should? And if you were me, would you?

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Oh, absolutely agreed where the lengths and ethics of that pursuit are concerned. I know most people aren't saying we shouldn't make money BUT some indeed do express that. It's just not practical and it's philosophically childish, from my perspective.

    But I think we are all, to our various degrees, wondering about the Pursuing X thing for the obvious reasons. As we should. The concern is a) whether our friends and associates signed with them are being taken and b) if they try Goode type shenanigans to control the field. I'm all for keeping the dialogue of concern going on this, but let's see what develops with it.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Hmmm... I would say don't do that to the site/forum, but if there are certain fruits of your research you legitimately see that you need some compensation for, you sell those as products. That's the off the top of my head answer. The paywall thing is, agreed, irritating, but I guess if the product ceases to be books (God forbid!!!) and becomes online audio-visual, I guess they have little choice?
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    Hi Walter,

    What gives me reason for pause is that Richard never used to be behind a paywall (it was never about the money)...and now all of a sudden 15 - 20 years later he is.

    Dave - Toronto
    Yes, the paywall thing is interesting.

    Here's the Socratean question. I'd like EVERYONE reading this to answer this for themselves.

    Should I put half of Avalon behind a paywall — only half! — so that paid-up members will then have access to twice as much content?

    If not, why not?

    Be reassured: I am NOT going to do this.

    But Walter: do you think I should? And if you were me, would you?


    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Yes, I sincerely see your point. i think my reply to Bill's hypothetical covers one aspect of why anyone would feel the need to paywall, ie if the product becomes what's on the site. But that's why I say make the product something separate from the site that's been free all along because you lose faithful fans (rightfully so) .
    Quote Posted by Spellbound (here)
    Hi Walter,

    What gives me reason for pause is that Richard never used to be behind a paywall (it was never about the money)...and now all of a sudden 15 - 20 years later he is.

    Dave - Toronto

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