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Thread: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

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    Puerto Rico Avalon Member Madeira's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Apulu (here)

    Bill, I think you're absolutely right: one of the major reasons there is so much drug and alcohol abuse in the music industry is that people feel compromised and out of control of what they're doing. I see that often the most revered artists are the most sensitive ones. That's how they're able to create the art that they create. And it also means that they're sensitive to everything that's happening around them; the vibes and intentions of people, and the direction their lives seem to be going. So, no wonder, when these people find out that the people who seemed to make their career happen, and who they thought had their back, actually don't. They perhaps don't care much about them at all, and are only interested in themselves, money and their own ambition. Not only that, but the sensitive artist is now legally obliged to do their bidding!




    If I could dedicate 25 hours a day to my "hobby/passion" (let's call it like that for the moment until we find a better wording, did not wanted to use "work") I would be happy, sadly, none of us can, hence the mere fact to delegate stuff to seconds and looks like in this case ( as well as many others in all the industries) your "helper/assistant" will end in being "your boss" and YOU will have to cover their $$$.

    We are all aware that, well, money is a necessity, still I rather come out with fewer but better quality stuff by myself than bombard all the media platforms with less quality stuff because technically I am obligated to it.

    Peace!
    Last edited by Madeira; 30th October 2018 at 14:22.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Apulu (here)
    People want to revere people. It feels good to put trust and admiration on someone else, and revere them for doing something and achieving something that we might want desperately to achieve ourselves. And it can be terribly tempting to accept that reverence. It's all hype, because all of that is our own imagination, and has nothing to do with who's being revered.

    I think the only positive thing you can send out to the people you revere is gratitude. And the only positive thing you can send back, as a person who is revered, is gratitude. You never know what the positive effect is that you might be having, but you're grateful that it seems to be having that effect. And if you're really smart, you realise that it's nice to be involved with this positive effect, but it actually has nothing to do with you. NOTHING!


    I'm in a position now where I'm about to release some music on my own, .
    Wow, what great insights!! You touch down!! Great understanding.

    I am now very eager to hear you music.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by WalterBosley (here)
    Holy effing crap. Good catch. Do the otherwise smart people who sign with this outfit bother to look into who they're signing with?
    No people don't, they either do not have time or are plain good people.

    I have been fooled a few years ago by someone whom I worked for free for 3 months, thinking he would develop a very good software and give me share of his company(agreement signed) to learn, last week, that he misrepresented himself as a founder of a very successful company who had been sold later on for 35 millions.

    His credibility was without reproach right - well, I learned he had been a high level employee, but nothing else, certainly not the founder.

    I do not know what to do with this. His reputation is good, everybody believes him, and me I am miss nobody in comparison. How do you warn people?

    Those jerks are smart and talented. They make their living by fooling others. They eat our loosh, in these case our work and talents, in a very 3D manner. Can you imagine what exist higher up?
    Last edited by Flash; 30th October 2018 at 15:27.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by Apulu (here)
    People want to revere people. It feels good to put trust and admiration on someone else, and revere them for doing something and achieving something that we might want desperately to achieve ourselves. And it can be terribly tempting to accept that reverence. It's all hype, because all of that is our own imagination, and has nothing to do with who's being revered.

    I think the only positive thing you can send out to the people you revere is gratitude. And the only positive thing you can send back, as a person who is revered, is gratitude. You never know what the positive effect is that you might be having, but you're grateful that it seems to be having that effect. And if you're really smart, you realise that it's nice to be involved with this positive effect, but it actually has nothing to do with you. NOTHING!


    I'm in a position now where I'm about to release some music on my own, .
    Wow, what great insights!! You touch down!! Great understanding.

    I am now very eager to hear you music.
    Thanks a lot Flash - I may well post something here when the current recording is finished (early next year I'm expecting...). I guess I need to do that in such a way that it's not marketing!

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Ooh yeah that sure looks nasty - an unscrupulous producer right there. Thanks for the updates Bill.
    Guess my "glass is half full" optimism will have to wait a while longer until more scrupulous people hit the circuit to help out the good guys.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I'm with you Bill. It's like a big stupid joke, but it's not a joke, because it's happening.

    I've just got through season 2 of the comedy TV series "Silicon Valley" and a lot of that show seems to be reminiscent of things you're talking about. It's like they're all playing a money game, and only one guy knows the rules (the asshole guy lol)

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Richard Dolan asked me to post this here:

    Quote Please consider posting this to your thread, if you don't mind.

    In an age of instant outrage over the next transgressions by some new public figure, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that at some point, people would find outrage in the fact that a marketing specialist has established relationships with a number of researchers in the UFO field. I read through the various posts on this matter and was struck by the moral indignation it seemed to stir.

    As I mentioned before, Lori was completely upfront with Tracey and me about her past. I don't know how engaged or sheltered most other people are in this world, but in my world I have had friendships with many men and women who have done serious prison time. Partly because I was raised in a law enforcement family. Partly because for many years I helped people with disabilities find work (many of them were incarcerated for all kinds of reasons). Partly because if you want to find good contractors for all kinds of projects, you are going to encounter people who have been in prison. Many of those individuals have become good friends of mine.

    Throughout my life, I have made it a personal practice to deal with individuals for who they are, for how they behave, for their honesty, and other qualities that I can observe. Generally speaking, I do not judge someone based on their past. That's a dangerous road to go down once you start. Most people have a past that includes things they are not proud of. Providing that a person grows and learns from their past, why should we persecute and shame them for it? Think about how awful it must be for anyone who has done prison time. Yes, they did something wrong. That is why we have a penal system; to punish legal transgressions. In our society, this is how people "pay" for their crimes. My question is, once you have paid for your crime, is it fair that you keep paying for the rest of your life? Is there never a time when it's over? I've known so many ex-offenders who can't get work for exactly this reason. Do I need to point out the obvious, that not everyone in our prison-happy society deserves to be in there?

    As for the marketing part, I simply have to wonder: how much free time do people have that they think they need to make this into the latest outrage? Have folks lost all sense of proportion? I wonder if people realize how extremely difficult it is to do the things that I or other researchers do, and still survive? Anyone who has known me on a personal level knows how I have struggled financially. There were times over the years when I genuinely thought I might declare bankruptcy -- all while managing a family and raising small children. It was hard. Through it all, I never left the field, even though at times I was tempted to do so by obtaining some other form of employment/income.

    Lori hasn't solved all my financial issues. But I believe the marketing has been successful in raising my profile enough that maybe things will get better in the future. So I -- like so many other people in this field -- can perhaps one day crawl out of debt. It's distasteful to have to go through this with the public, but I am doing it to remind others that this is the real world, not somebody's utopian fantasy about how things ought to be.

    A word on the "perils" of producing so much content. First thing is that nobody tells me how I get my message out to the world. Not Lori, not any of my followers, no one. I make my own decisions. While I work hard to produce worthwhile content and information to the world, I do not feel like a "hamster on a wheel." But I do feel extremely engaged and happy to be doing so much.

    Nor does Lori take "30 or 35%" of my commercial income. No idea how people think such numbers are accurate. She does get a percentage of certain streams of online revenue, as she should. And that is a private business decision that is nobody else's concern. In fact, Tracey and I have often remarked to ourselves that Lori deserves much more than what we can ever pay her, since it's not a high enough amount to justify the amount of work she puts in.

    Lori provides what I have needed for a long time: someone who is extremely dedicated and hard working to the max. Of course she is trying to make money! How is that wrong?

    Some people like what I have to say and write; others don't. I would only hope that they like or dislike what I do based on my research and message. Not on their perceptions of how they interpret the personal morality of people I choose to associate with.

    Tracey and I are thankful every day we have someone like Lori working for us. She is an amazing human being, and a good and decent person. In an age of public smearing and shaming, I will not passively stand by while someone I respect and care about has it happen to them.

    Richard Dolan

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I very much appreciate Richard's lengthy, articulate, measured and honest reply. His integrity shines through, as it always does.

    He is the highest quality human being. In this field, he's the best we've got. And he's a leader, an example, and a teacher. He's well aware of his responsibilities.

    But I stand by every word I have written on this thread.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I appreciate Richard Dolan's response to the concerns. I'm sure he understands why we would be. When I see Pursuing X do something egregious, I'll consider my opinion at that time. Presently they are simply representing folks and Bill has put the word out about their past. For now we must rely on the person's character and whether past crimes and punishment have left the proper impact on her judgment. The idea of our system is that we first give the benefit of the doubt after the person has served their debt to society. For the time being, I have a book to work on and must return my energy to that, following the energy I spent on the Corey Goode trademark issue.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Well, to Richard Dolan: we are not at the outrage stage here, making business with specialists in their fields is in fact intelligent, and needed. No one succeeds entirely alone.

    If someone made a mistake in life and tells you so that you know and yet, their service is great enough to be of help, great. As long as you can trust. But in business, trust is often sadly equated with "can you make money for me" on either side. As long as both sides profit and there is no foul play everything is fine and great friendships can be built.

    (I am torn between wanting to believe that people do get better, and my experience in business. But, I personally would have a tendency to be quite watchful, for marketing strategies as well as for revenues management - as I paraphrase Oprah Winfrey, never let the finance to anybody else. I had too many and seen too many trusted becoming not trustworthy.).

    Now, for one's presence on the market, however, there is one thing for sure: Over flooding small markets happens often. This has to be taken into account in order to stand for a long time.

    To tell the truth, I rather have Richard Dolan and Linda Moulton Howe and their alike flood the market instead of all the low quality we have actually. But... beware, there is a tiredness that can happen quite fast in a small market.

    We are many here on Avalon, who have had their own business or have done some public ventures. We have seen pretty much all kind of marketing schemes, leading to successes or failures. To be wise often means to let all windows open and listen, in order to make one's own decision leading to success.

    Of course, there is no reasons the good ones would make less revenues that the rotten ones on this market, for this I applaud, get the help needed, in social media AND in marketing.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I very much appreciate Richard's lengthy, articulate, measured and honest reply. His integrity shines through, as it always does.

    He is the highest quality human being. In this field, he's the best we've got. And he's a leader, an example, and a teacher. He's well aware of his responsibilities.

    But I stand by every word I have written on this thread.
    Richard, in his apologia, talks about the need for criminals to be forgiven and allowed back into society --- My question is, once you have paid for your crime, is it fair that you keep paying for the rest of your life? Is there never a time when it's over?

    Sure, help them get a word processing job or a clerical gig -- but do you really want to trust a proven swindler -- and a major financial type swindler at that -- with your most personal work and creations?

    I don't have much opinion either way about Dolan, although I do like his beard. I'm just not that interested in the whole ufo game. But his defense sounds rather hollow. I can't imagine I would ever let someone like that handle my business affairs, even on a superficial level--if I had full knowledge of their past. Another thing is --- he's implicitly asking us to trust him and his grasp and presentation of his subjects--yet knowing whom he's involved with, someone historically extremely untrustworthy--doesn't that compromise the logic of our engagement therein ?

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    I Try to to undestand the feelings of all others here, and everywhere else.
    Yet I am confused on the not knowings of manipulations that are happing everywhere now.

    I see the need for money, in the currant situation I am in, yet I also see its manipulative state of nessecity.

    What is the real purpose of it?

    Is it to measure us against one another for bulk of it, or lack of the amount of it?

    Pardon me if I am assuming. But the knowledge someone has, is not based on there bank account.

    If I could make lots of money for a certain entity, by spraying there word of BS around, I could not.

    I would still just be me.

    A man of my own dignity, and understanding of why people do it.

    And not judge them.

    It is not my place any more.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    My biggest dream for this game we play is to see an end to the monetary system. Let the cream rise to the top, so to speak.

    That said, does anyone believe that Richard Dolan's work has been compromised by his agent? Is he still authentic?

    Back in 1983, on a gap year between high school and college, I went to work as a typist for a marketing research firm. Strangely enough, they were Jewish Scientologists and did everything they could to try to convert me.. (another digression). Now keep in mind that this was before PCs. I actually did my work on an IBM Selectric. There was no automation, so I grew to know the material well.

    This firm employed survey takers. I was then provided the data to incorporate into what appeared to be a template. Seriously. As I sat with the dictaphone tape (omg, am i old?) transcribing the Owner's take on the research data, it occurred to me that he was not changing anything between clients. The data was different, but the interpretation was the same. Down to the last word. Identical. I was incensed. At only 18 years old, I knew that it seemed immoral to be charging tens of thousands of dollars to clients for a cookie cutter analysis. I really wanted to quit. But then, I was asked to prepare Benchmark statistics for each client. Before the analysis and recommended action and after the implementation of the recommended plan. Lo and behold - each and every client had increased their key metrics substantially. Whether they were looking for customer satisfaction numbers to increase or whether they were looking at gross revenue improvement - the numbers were astounding. There was marked improvement.

    So maybe there is something to the tried and true or maybe it was the power of suggestion that prompted these business owners to take action, any action was better than doing nothing. "Energy flows where attention goes".

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    @Richard.

    You think Arnold Toynbee would have done livestreams and promoted himself with SuperChats and a members-only website?

    My prediction. And this is not a joke, not a poke, and is NOT meant unkindly. I'm the strongest advocate of your work on Project Avalon, and I always have been.

    You'll never finish your Volume III.

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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    @Richard.

    You think Arnold Toynbee would have done livestreams and promoted himself with SuperChats and a members-only website?

    My prediction. And this is not a joke, not a poke, and is NOT meant unkindly. I'm the strongest advocate of your work on Project Avalon, and I always have been.

    You'll never finish your Volume III.
    A very close friend, whom I respect dearly, has just asked me if I might consider deleting my post above.

    I'm not going to do that, but I will enlarge to try to explain further.

    This is NOT adversarial. Against anyone. Certainly not Richard.

    I'm voicing my extensive concerns about the health of our own community.

    What is really ironic is that Richard, with his intellect, balance, knowledge of history, and extensive overview of societal changes (and his concern about the future!) should be the one person who can see this.

    I'm sincerely concerned he may not be able to, because he's in (or part way in!) the large, sticky fishbowl of commercialism and marketing. It's hard to see if you're inside it.

    My close friend was worried that I might offend Richard in some way.

    Listen.

    I love that man. I sit at his feet. I truly do.

    Here's what I wrote to my concerned friend just now.

    ~~~
    It's a slow-motion, corrosive, weakening, cheapening, quality-diluting effect on all our work. As a whole. That's categorically what's happening. Think of that next time you tune into Jimmy Church (and listen to the whole show for every minute of the commercial-riddled 3 hours).

    It's a HUGE elephant in the room. It's like an infection in the community. Very few are immune. It's very worrying to me that so few can see it.

    That was the reason for the thread. It was never about Lori. I'd have written the same things if Lori had the integrity of a saint. When I started the thread, I never even KNEW about her. It was one of the other moderators that found the legal data.

    It's not about her. It's about the meme.

    Here's my final (Socratean) question.

    If anyone here thinks that Project Avalon should have commercials, a marketing manager, a paid subscription without which members can only access half the information and half the threads, a Facebook page with someone paid to promote it every day (it takes a lot of work to maintain Facebook commercially!), T-shirts for sale....

    ..... raise your hand.

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 1st November 2018 at 00:31.

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    UK Moderator and Librarian Tintin's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Is anyone paying attention? Why are you here? It's a serious question.

    All the tools are here for you to "take off". Why don't you, and why can't you? Which part of the BS did you buy in to, to stop you from flowering? It's really not that difficult is it? Really?

    Breathe in and breathe outwith. And get on with it.

    And take some responsibility for a change.

    Would you please do that?

    You owe it to YOU to do that.
    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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    United States Avalon Member Valerie Villars's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Thanks, Tintin. And Bill. Thank God there are those who see and reject.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
    Thank God there are those who see and reject.
    I know what you mean, but it's not about 'rejection'.

    It's about control and balance and awareness.

    Let's take social media, for example. There are now hundreds of good articles, books and even research papers on the detrimental effects of something which every marketeer would want us to become MORE dependent on and addicted to.

    I'm not against social media. I'm using it now.

    But it's not using me. That's the difference.

    There's a co-dependency with many people on social media. The co-dependency isn't between them and their significant other. It's between them and the internet world.

    And marketeers jump on that to exploit it. And exploit US.

    We're the source of their income.

    You can't blame them. It's what they do. It's like asking a cat not to catch mice. They have to.

    It's when corners are cut, that the slippery slope begins. There's nothing wrong with saying: "Here I am. This is what I do. Here's how to connect with me."

    The other end of that extreme is when all the manipulation kicks in. And just as Dr Robert Duncan says (re mind control) that the human mind has no firewall, neither does the human mind have a firewall against marketing, commercialism and promotion.

    That's why it works.

    What's being preyed on here, leaned on, slowly, inexorably, is our own human weakness to compete, not miss out on the party out there somewhere, be heard, be admired. We're ALL being slowly roasted here, by a kind of commercial machine. And it's CONSUMING.

    If anyone wants to write a book (Walter Bosley! Please jump in!) — they HAVE to disconnect from all that. That's what I was saying to Richard above.

    You can't write a 600 page scholarly treatise that's fundamental to an entire research area and ALSO do two livestreams a week every week (plus interviews) AND write articles for a website where paid-up members are waiting for more AND attend conferences AND travel AND upload audios every other day.

    One needs focus and disconnection. But a marketeer will never want their 'talent' (the showbusiness term for an attractive human who's a revenue-generating commodity) — and livestreaming IS showbusiness — to disconnect. So it's a conflict, right there.

    You reading this — addressing you, the reader, right now — do you maybe start to understand what I'm trying to find a way to say?
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 1st November 2018 at 02:00.

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    Australia Avalon Member Innocent Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Richard Dolan has always been the epitome of decency and honour, I’ve listened to him just to hear the way he speaks, I often learn a thing or two about being a better human from him. Seeing Richard’s name on that client list was incredibly disappointing to see, I had him on a pedestal, my mistake, I should know better.

    Bill, I’m right with you on this marketing issue, you’re absolutely correct, but Richard is free to make his own choices, that’s where you may be risking offence and perhaps what your dear friend is concerned about. To be clear, I know your intent and tone, I’m just not sure everyone will.
    Last edited by Innocent Warrior; 1st November 2018 at 02:42. Reason: Clarification
    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PURSUING X: Marketing, money and manipulation in the Alternative Media

    Quote Posted by Rachel (here)
    Richard is free to make his own choices, that’s where you may be risking offence and perhaps what your dear friend is concerned about.
    Of course. Everyone is. 100% absolutely not my call. Every person reading this is free to do whatever they wish.

    But where I want to take the discussion, I think, is into areas of compulsiveness, addiction, the way social media feeds on human weaknesses and vulnerabilities (often manifesting in the form of needs). And marketeers then feed on those, like hitchhikers on the weakness-exploiting trail.

    One of the things that's a REALLY hot button (which I never quite realized on the forum recently until a little too late!) is to home in on things that are addictions.

    QAnon is an addiction. That seems to me (and, I have to say, to quite a few others) an obvious fact. But telling people that...? OMG.

    You can become their enemy. No matter how it's packaged. It's like saying to someone who's an alcoholic: NOT "Hey, I think you're an addict", but "Wow, don't you have a lot of beer in your fridge?"

    That's NOT well-received. It's too close to the bone. The social media/ commercialization thing is in some ways fairly similar.

    Tell people they’re addicted to all their social media accounts — AND, because of that, they're being exploited and steered like mice in a maze, and some people among us are exploiting others, too, brother and sister exploiting brother and sister — and one might not be popular.

    ***

    Now it's getting late here, US time. I want to expand this conversation more tomorrow afternoon, if I can. I think it's extremely important. My challenge is to try to explain everything I feel I see very clearly without upsetting anyone. It might not be too easy, because I never want to unfairly or inappropriately upset a soul. Everyone who knows me knows that's true.

    If I have done, I do apologize. But I'm still going to tell the truth about what I see, as vividly and articulately as I can. I feel I have a duty to do that.

    I have a lot more to say about a number of things. Two themes that will be next up:
    • Alvin Toffler's prophetic and important 1970 book Future Shock. He predicted how within a couple of generations we hard-wired humans, with biology essentially unchanged for tens of thousands of years, would rapidly become stressed and overwhelmed by the information overload coming at us, faster and faster and faster, with widespread neuroses and breakdowns as a result.
    • Edward Bernays, the Godfather of modern marketing, manipulation and propaganda. And how the American government deployed sophisticated marketing techniques to feed the egos of the dangerous potential revolutionaries among the counter-culture of the 1970s, to tame and capture them so that they were no longer a threat to the establishment.

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