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Thread: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

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    United States Avalon Member rgray222's Avatar
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    Default Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Do people really have free will or is it just an illusion?

    Quote Wikipedia:
    free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

    Dictionary.com:
    free and independent choice; voluntary decision:


    Philosophy:
    The doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.



    While all that makes sense, consider this.


    A person is standing on their front porch. They want to go somewhere but have yet to decide where it will be. Believing they have free will and giving this dilemma considerable thought they decide it will be the grocery store. They consciously think about their ability to exercise free will and they considered all the options to get to the store. They could drive, take a bus, walk, call a taxi or an uber, they could call a neighbour, friend or a family member and ask for a ride. They could take that old dusty back out of the garage and ride it to the store. God forbid they could even run to the store or take a skateboard. It seems like they have an infinite number of options and combinations to choose from.

    But they cannot fly to the store, they cannot teleport to the store nor can they materialize by sudden thought at the store.

    So the question begs to be asked, do we really have free will or is it just an illusion? Do we have free will over some things but not others (i.e disease)? If we don't have complete free will is someone else calling the shots? Is there a divine or physical force at play here?

    I would love to get your thoughts on this issue.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Yes, but we are heavily controlled and manipulated.

    Dave - Toronto

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Free will isn't the option to choose ANYTHING. It's to choose between the options available.

    In a room full of furniture, you can't choose to sit on a chair that's not there.


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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Free will isn't the option to choose ANYTHING. It's to choose between the options available.

    In a room full of furniture, you can't choose to sit on a chair that's not there.

    I agree that we can't choose something if it is not there. But sometimes we make a choice to avoid something and it heads in our direction anyway. For example, we choose to avoid disease by exercise, diet, and lifestyle but it still shows up. Almost as if it is predetermined.

    I don't want to make this thread about health but it is the first example that I thought of.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Free will isn't the option to choose ANYTHING. It's to choose between the options available.

    In a room full of furniture, you can't choose to sit on a chair that's not there.

    Agreed, though if I have the idea of a chair I can choose to make one.

    I see your point (can I set there?), without the idea the option isn't there either.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Free will isn't the option to choose ANYTHING. It's to choose between the options available.

    In a room full of furniture, you can't choose to sit on a chair that's not there.

    I agree that we can't choose something if it is not there. But sometimes we make a choice to avoid something and it heads in our direction anyway. For example, we choose to avoid disease by exercise, diet, and lifestyle but it still shows up. Almost as if it is predetermined.

    I don't want to make this thread about health but it is the first example that I thought of.
    “A person often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.” ― Jean de La Fontaine

    My own view is similar to Bill's, free will is the choice we have to play or not to play, the cards we have been dealt, nothing more, nothing less, win, lose or draw. So, yes I think we all have free will....x... N

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    @rgray222,

    I think a lot of it, our lives, is pre-scripted, just talking about this with Bill (in his thread). Before we come in... the challenges, the people we meet. I had a strange realization lately that all this stupid suffering and confusion actually did serve a purpose.

    In a way we're all puppets, but puppets of ourselves, our souls. It's Us, not really us. The Us has the free will. Perhaps.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    For many, the opposite of free will is predestination and predetermination. You might see the universe as a collection of atoms all in motion with a certain velocity and direction, colliding with each other and then changing direction according to the laws of Newtonian physic. You can calculate where they will be 3 milliseconds from now and 3 billion years from now and there is only one possible result at each moment in time. These atoms determine your consciousness and your actions. Even thought you have the illusion of free choice, your actions are governed by the motion of these atoms. You may think that you are making a decision, but the whole decision process that you experience is guided by the motion and interaction of these atoms.

    If you switch to quantum mechanics, this become a little more complex. But Max Planck, a major player in the development of quantum theory, didn't see physics as explaining the phenomena of consciousness:

    Quote
    I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." - Max Planck
    If you regard consciousness as primary, instead of secondary to some other process, then you can observe this process and notice yourself constantly making decisions. The fact the you can make these decisions and carry them out, within the parameters of what your physical universe allows, then Yes, you have free will.

    And no matter how restricted your universe is, there are always decisions to be made. If you have a window, you can always decide to notice the sunrise. If you have quiet, you can decide to enjoy the silence. If not, you can decide to find the harmony in the cacophony. There is always some opportunity to exercise your free will.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Caliban (here)
    @rgray222,

    I think a lot of it, our lives, is pre-scripted, just talking about this with Bill (in his thread). Before we come in... the challenges, the people we meet. I had a strange realization lately that all this stupid suffering and confusion actually did serve a purpose.

    In a way we're all puppets, but puppets of ourselves, our souls. It's Us, not really us. The Us has the free will. Perhaps.
    A sort of cosmic hide and seek in which there is no seeking without the hide and no point in the hide without the seek.

    Sometimes the hiding comes by way of seeking and vice versa.

    Have you ever sought something so intently that you forgot/ loss yourself in the process however briefly?

    Is it free will if you're already playing when the question comes up?
    Last edited by O Donna; 31st October 2018 at 03:59. Reason: added last sentence

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Yeah - I would compare it to a computer game. The rules for teleporting or flying aren't programmed into to game here on earth. But on the other hand, you could acquire the ability to rewrite the code - at least for your self to be able to teleport or fly.
    Free will was the consent to enter this restricted playing arena. (Or you might have been lured into it.) Once you're in it - you either play by the rules or exit.
    That's how I see it.
    Last edited by Michi; 31st October 2018 at 11:14. Reason: addition
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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)
    You can calculate where they will be 3 milliseconds from now and 3 billion years from now and there is only one possible result at each moment in time. These atoms determine your consciousness and your actions. Even thought you have the illusion of free choice, your actions are governed by the motion of these atoms. You may think that you are making a decision, but the whole decision process that you experience is guided by the motion and interaction of these atoms.

    I disagree because there is not one outcome but as many as there are parallel universes and 'time lines'. Free choice involves moving from one 'universe' to another. Each of us effectively creates our own personal universe as a result of our belief system which is why two people can be in the same place at the same with one having a great time and the other thinking the place is horrible.

    If we change our beliefs we change our possible choices and this is the basis of free will - it comes from our attitude. Or are you going to argue that the vibrations of particular atoms governs our ability to believe something?

    In fact, the possibility of free choice only starts to exist when a person starts to become conscious and begins to be free of their childhood programming. The more conscious we are, the more we have free choice and the more we are able to consciously create what kind of world we live in. Choice over what we create from our belief system is the important thing.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Free will isn't the option to choose ANYTHING. It's to choose between the options available.

    In a room full of furniture, you can't choose to sit on a chair that's not there.

    I agree that we can't choose something if it is not there. But sometimes we make a choice to avoid something and it heads in our direction anyway. For example, we choose to avoid disease by exercise, diet, and lifestyle but it still shows up. Almost as if it is predetermined.

    I don't want to make this thread about health but it is the first example that I thought of.
    Consider that the Universe/Computer (broad definition) rewards us with what we focus upon. It doesn't understand the difference between dread and desire. It reads "health" and provides any number of possible outcomes. So if for example, you are exercising because you are worried about heart disease, the machine will read heart disease and change your programming. Maybe the answer is to always focus on desire and throw dread away. My opinion for what its worth. Great thread!

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    No! All the actions of yesterday have already laid out the groundwork for how things have to fall into place tomorrow. It's already written in stone, like gears falling into place in the framework of the universal clock and nothing is your fault or in your control, you may as well sit back and enjoy the view. All our lives will end the way they are going to end and that was already done the second first conscious life appeared! The illusion of time prevents all from realizing it but it's as good as done already and over.
    The genius consistently stands out from the masses in that he unconsciously anticipates truths of which the population as a whole only later becomes conscious! Speech-circa 1937

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    According to those who are fully awake, there is no personal "I". That is the first observation upon awakening. David Carse hammers this point over and over again in his seminal book "Perfect Brilliant Stillness". So, if there is no "I", then "who" is deciding. There is no one to decide. Nobody home.
    In the unawakened state, which most of us occupy, there sure "seems" to be free will. But we live in a world of appearances. It appears that we make choices. Free will is an apparent choice only. Seems real, but only an appearance. The awakened ones know this down to their bone marrow.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    There is neither creation nor destruction,
    Neither destiny nor free will,
    Neither path nor achievement.
    -- Ramana Maharshi

    "Because the “I”-object and causality are nothing but concepts, so is free will. It too does not exist." -- A Course In Miracles

    "Another difficulty about truly accepting this teaching is the argument that it leads to a 'fatalistic' attitude. The fatalistic argument translates itself into the question: 'If I am not to be motivated by the fruits of my action, and, indeed, if I have no free will over my actions, why should I work at all?' The answer is astonishingly simple: you will not be able to be inactive for any length of time because the energy within the organism will compel you to act: to act according to the natural characteristics of the organism. In other words, whether to act or not is itself not in your control." -- The Wisdom of Balsekar

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    But sometimes we make a choice to avoid something and it heads in our direction anyway. For example, we choose to avoid disease by exercise, diet, and lifestyle but it still shows up. Almost as if it is predetermined.
    No, not predetermined. Simply not actually a real choice.

    To make the point using an extreme (and no disrespect is meant here to anyone who may desperately want something which fails to materialize):

    An idle wish isn't a choice.

    A choice (in the context you're referring to it) needs to contain genuine power. (Not force, but power.) Not everyone has easy access to that.

    The secondary aspect to this (I know you don't want this to be about health, but it applies to other issues too) is that one has to support a choice with real-world work.

    Examples.
    • I could choose to have a million $$ in my bank account. But I still have to start a business and spend quite some time and energy on it. Winning the lottery might not be the way this manifests.
    • I could choose to lose weight. But then I have to change my lifestyle and eating habits, and maybe apply discipline, and educate myself about nutrition.
    • I could choose to have a wonderful new relationship. But I can't wait for a random person to knock on my door. I may have to expand my social circle, or join a dating agency.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 31st October 2018 at 17:27.

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Ratszinger (here)
    No! All the actions of yesterday have already laid out the groundwork for how things have to fall into place tomorrow. It's already written in stone, like gears falling into place in the framework of the universal clock and nothing is your fault or in your control, you may as well sit back and enjoy the view. All our lives will end the way they are going to end and that was already done the second first conscious life appeared! The illusion of time prevents all from realizing it but it's as good as done already and over.
    This is it, in my opinion and according to the teachers I study. I do believe that we have free will, however. That will exerts itself through intention and focus. Today is written in stone, but tomorrow is more flexible. If your intentions do not conflict with the greater big picture, then they are brought into existence.

    It has been clearly demonstrated that there is brain activity in the moments before we make a conscious decision. What we believe is our idea to act is not. It was already determined. This is a deep spiritual lesson. Total supplication to God and allowing without resistance is the only way. All else is stress and frustration. Control freaks have a big problem with that concept. haha
    The quantum field responds not to what we want; but to who we are being. Dr. Joe Dispenza

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    aren't we humans part of a bigger entity? If so then we are subservient to that entity.

    Someone who understands the wheel work of the universe better than anyone had this to say

    “...and led me to finally recognise that I was but an automaton devoid of free will in thought and action and merely responsible to the forces of the environment.” Nikola Tesla

    "The human being is a self-propelled automaton entirely under the control of external influences. Willful and predetermined though they appear, his actions are governed not from within, but from without. He is like a float tossed about by the waves of a turbulent sea". Nikola Tesla.

    But I do find some freewill. If I am being tossed about by the waves I can still choose whether to enjoy the ride or curse the waves. This is more important to me than freewill of action, after all every effort/ action by every being is ultimately aimed at acquiring happiness..

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Regardless we must act as though we have free will.
    In duality we certainly seem to have.
    Maya is this illusion.
    In non-duality there is no person to have free will
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Does Mankind Have Free Will?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    But sometimes we make a choice to avoid something and it heads in our direction anyway. For example, we choose to avoid disease by exercise, diet, and lifestyle but it still shows up. Almost as if it is predetermined.
    No, not predetermined. Simply not actually a real choice.

    To make the point using an extreme (and no disrespect is meant here to anyone who may desperately want something which fails to materialize):

    An idle wish isn't a choice.

    A choice (in the context you're referring to it) needs to contain genuine power. (Not force, but power.) Not everyone has easy access to that.

    The secondary aspect to this (I know you don't want this to be about health, but it applies to other issues too) is that one has to support a choice with real-world work.

    Examples.
    • I could choose to have a million $$ in my bank account. But I still have to start a business and spend quite some time and energy on it. Winning the lottery might not be the way this manifests.
    • I could choose to lose weight. But then I have to change my lifestyle and eating habits, and maybe apply discipline, and educate myself about nutrition.
    • I could choose to have a wonderful new relationship. But I can't wait for a random person to knock on my door. I may have to expand my social circle, or join a dating agency.
    In other words, God can give you the boat, but you still have to row it to get somewhere.
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what we share with someone when we are uncool." From the movie "Almost Famous""l "Let yourself stand cool and composed before a million universes." Walt Whitman

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