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Thread: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    Actually @Whisper, civilians, the Amateur Radio Operators and societies have been picking up signals, data, images from Lunar craft for YEARS and reporting on such. One can believe conspiracies or do the research and find out for oneself.
    Actually astronomers from the infancy of the science have been seeing strange lights and movement on the moon for centuries, and this is alluded to in Whisper's "Ingo Swan" reference in his book penetration, this would indicate to me at least that there is indeed another civilization of some kind with operations on the moon. You do good work Bob but give folks a break, that post is rather dismissive and high handed, not what I'm used to seeing from you.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    DNA - kinda deviating the thread a bit talking about Transient Lunar Phenomena, but lets divert for one post to put this to bed. As I stated clearly and kindly, doing the research and not trying to get into conspiratorial "aliens" puts it back onto science to determine the causes.

    The following website has the most objective explanation:

    http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/wha...phenomena.html those interested in light flashes on the moon, and wanting to believe that they are ancient aliens please take it to another thread, as it has nothing to do with this thread on Helium-3 mining and those heading to various locations on the moon to sample regolith for Helium-3 levels and quantity.

    The Israel Genesis lander/probe is going to be looking for the electrostatic charged particle characteristics, which have been known to appear during the moon traveling into the Earth's magnetic tail. The tail increases during solar events, and the charges are quite radically imparted upon the moon. Charged reflective "dust" can change reflectivity as observed from a spacecraft taking pictures, or from those on earth visually observing. The larger the cloud kicked up by whatever type of strike the larger the "flash" observed.

    Virtually a swirling dust storm could be possible, as the regolith is very much highly reflective when stirred up and exposed. Virtually there could be micro-tornado's picking up dust which being concentrated allows for a "bright area" to appear. It is pretty easy to simulate a dust devil localized in a crater containing for instance Titanium Dioxide, a very major component of the regolith. Titanium Dioxide exposed either thru a meteorite strike or thru a transient electrostatic vortex would appear "bright" increasing the reflectivity briefly while active and thereby exciting earth observers, no doubt..

    The Israel Genesis craft would be able to document the pulsations of the lunar dust swarms lets call them.. It doesn't need an "aliens on the moon" explanation to not only document but verify a phenomenon which requires earth craft intervention on and around the moon in low orbit to monitor for the effects.


    statistical reference - meteorite strike on the lunar surface:
    https://newsbeezer.com/colombiaeng/e...orite-strikes/

    "Every hour, the Moon receives an average of eight meteorite strikes"


    Above, example of strikes distributed on the visible side of the moon (earth facing). Such matches the "TLP" (Light phenomenon). Again, it doesn't take going the "aliens on the moon" explanation for a much more obvious mechanism.

    And to cap this, the Chinese probe and rover are on the moon, getting data, and they weren't stopped as suggested by the member. Let's move on and back to topic, thanks.
    Last edited by Bob; 6th January 2019 at 05:16.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Quote Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
    "University of Wisconsin has been the US leader."

    Anybody know if China has an equivalent "leader" that has also been moving in the same direction with this type of reactor tech?
    Joe I am researching that and will post what I find. China has a lot of MILITARY reactor systems, so getting the Chinese data on their energy program (military related) will take some finesse.

    They did explore the Tokamak system which suffers from confinement issues and neutron erosion issues, (which Ernie touched on briefly). One of the scientists pointed out a Tokamak system COULD be filled with deuterium and Helium-3 and would probably work adequately.

    My personal feeling on that is tokamak is overkill for the simplicity of the Deuterium-Helium-3 fusion power system.. Tokamak wasn't setup adequately with MHD (magneto-hydro-dynamic) power extraction to siphon off the power from the proton plasma storm.

    Tokamak systems are unbelievably expensive, which really prevents their use in any cost-effective way. However they got funding with the promise of more power out than in.. But they are not clean - the Helium-3 reaction IS clean.

    ref: https://www.iter.org/ (this is the multi-billion multi-national $$$ effort for dirty fusion)

    in my opinion being in this "clean energy science" since 1966, this recent iter complex is about as large a diversion of research as can be in recent history. It's known how much damage such a system will create, with insurmountable difficulties.

    I believe it is an intentional energy drain from using the actual workable sources of technology and starting point feed-stock materials which could address worldwide energy issues and environmental issues. This dirty fusion concept was focused on instead of a clean Helium-3 system..


    I am sure China knows this and is bailing from the iter venture. Gates and Bezos were going to work with China on 4th generation nuclear reactor project, but have pulled out saying the US needs to move on the newer nuclear technologies NOW, not later. (that was from 29 Dec, 2018). They know what's happening behind the scenes I believe.
    Last edited by Bob; 6th January 2019 at 06:58.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    We could have easily gone back to get to the "dark side" of the moon and get into obtaining an energy source which would have put oil and gas and coal into the dark ages where they belong. But politically we were prevented from going and getting that material.

    To me it is obvious where the conspiracy resides, big oil and gas and big coal. Energy manipulation and scarcity to drive the price up. Conveniently, during the OPEC oil embargo, inflation adjusted oil prices went up from $25.97 per barrel (bbl) in 1973 to $46.35 per barrel (bbl) in 1974. Quite obvious seeing the energy squeeze and somebody(s) pocketing their ill gotten wealth.

    We could have had 10,000 years of clean energy, but that would have slammed a lot of good-ole-boy inner sanctum (wink wink) monopolies and portfolios - they most certainly DIDN'T want disruptive technology rocking their boat.
    Good point.

    If Huawei came up with a replacement for the mobile cell phone that would have enabled every human on the planet to have superior service for a few pennies a month, I would not expect Apple to help pave the way for Huawei's success. Nor would I expect the nation whose dominance depends on King (Petro-)Dollar to pave the way for the success of what would replace petroleum, as a far superior energy source. This dynamic had long been the downfall of the sort of Silicon Valley high tech firms that I used to work for: success in one generation of technology often precluded success in the next generation.

    Also, when I look at the confusion, insanity and bickering going on in Washington, DC these days (some of which I have no doubt China is encouraging, when it can), versus the disciplined focus that seems (at least to an English only speaking observer from Texas) to be going on in Beijing these days, and when I look at the number of competent engineers being turned out by China, versus the U.S., then I'd have to favor China, over the U.S., in this contest.

    If my understanding is correct that, given sufficient energy, at sufficiently low cost, then it becomes practical to make gold from more common metals, then I would anticipate that a nation confident that it was on the road to obtaining such energy supplies would want to also (1) hoard the earth's existing above ground gold and (2) make gold hoards a major factor in determining the value of a nation's currency. Clearly, I am thinking of China as that nation. In other words, a critical component of a currency is its relation to energy. The petro-dollar has been dominant in good part because it was needed to purchase oil from the Anglo-American controlled Middle East. In the future, the golden yuan will be valuable because China has the gold, and the energy to make more gold. A tiny prototype of this happened in Bitcoin, which was overtaken by Chinese crypto-miners working off very low cost energy.

    Thanks, Bob, for this thread about Chinese mining He-3 on the moon, as it connects with their latest Chang'e-4 probe landing, and the future potential for almost unlimited energy supplies. It fits in well, from the technology side, with what I've been reading of China's political aspirations to world dominance in Michael Pillsbury's book The Hundred-Year Marathon.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Great logic there Paul, thanks. What I found interesting is soon as it was certain Chang'e-4 was going to land successfully, Gates and Bezos pulled out of funding a Chinese new reactor (a cleaner fission version, not fusion) from their Breakthrough Energy Ventures fund. Looking at the international ITER fiasco (the tokamak style deuterium-tritium fusion reactor), China moves out and takes over virtually unlimited clean energy production IF they can get it back from earth.

    I wonder how hard it will be to setup laser systems, and other missile systems on the lunar surface or a weaponized orbiting platform to "protect their wealth" from other nations going to mine..

    I wonder how long the other country's "rovers and probes" will last/function, if they don't mysteriously break down.

    I think we are at the forefront of a big confrontation, unless something politically (wink wink) is going to be worked out..

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Bob - I am just now sending the following to my son, to explain this helium-3 technology. Did I get it about right?

    =============
    A ton of helium-3 can make about as much electricity as 1/8 of a billion tons of coal.

    And the process doesn't emit electrons; it emits protons.

    What causes the damage in our present day reactors is, in good part, the neutron emission,
    which can not be deflected or controlled using magnetic fields, so just slams into the
    reactor walls, making more radioactive waste and slowly destroying the reactor.

    The protons from helium-3 fusion, such as described here:

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/5908499/coul...nergy-problems

    can be directed using magnetic fields, and then moving protons (positive charges) can
    be used to generate electricity.

    It won't be easy, as there are only 50 parts per billion of helium-3 in lunar soil, so the refining
    will have to be done on the moon, returning just the helium-3.

    Obviously of no impact on our day-to-day lives for the coming year .

    If and when it is working, strip mining a billion tons of lunar soil will will produce 50 tons
    of helium-3, which can then be shipped back to earth to provide clean electricity in an
    amount equivalent to what 6 billion tons of coal.

    That's 1 billion tons of lunar soil yielding the equivalent electricity of 6 billion tons of coal,
    but with practically no pollution.

    The strip mined lunar landscape will end up looking like a barren lunar wasteland ... not
    much change there .
    =============

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    OK a few points, history and some thoughts.. I think a few points need to be elaborated on so that it isn't just a brief summary. There were a lot of hours used to do the numbers and they may not be accurate, but I think it is close.

    (first statement for your child explaining the "new fusion", about the reaction not emitting excess electrons, probably clarify saying a properly designed helium-3 system would not emit excess neutrons, but would have excess protons that could be stripped off for "electricity"..)

    I think the mining operations can be refined as well as the "reactor".. here goes with some basics, logics, and practicalities:

    On the field containment, electrostatic fields would be easier and better for acceleration (energy increase) than magnetic fields which would be more for containment I believe Paul. A moving charge will induce a magnetic field so having multiple magnetic fields could complicate geometry. In a Cathode Ray tube TV set, focusing and directing electrons both electrostatic and magnetic concepts are used for deflecting charges. A magnetic lens for instance would be great for separating different masses or concentrations, such as a particular atom with multiple electrons and protons.. But for just protons electrostatics is just fine for acceleration. We will use an RF field to raise the overall energy to evoke a plasma state tho..

    An RF source excites the non-polar helium which is then directed into a "linear accelerator". In my early fusion system, I used a 100 watt RF transmitter driving a "plasma tube" which was filled with mixed gases, of which normal helium and co2 were components with deuterium, there were other "trace gases" present to increase plasma formation. The use of the magnetics were for what I called "pinch mirrors" for the cavity. Along the plasma tube were conductive rings (cylinders) which had increasing values of voltage (this is where the linear accelerator concept happens, about 100KV is the operating voltage in my model). The inner (plasma) containment system was operated under low pressure, the outer system which isolated the rings was under high pressure sulfur hexafluoride gas. (that concept is understood in high voltage switch-gear insulation of high voltage to prevent breakdown). I was contemplating a liquid system for HV isolation at the time too instead of gas so that extra-cooling available could be used to extract the intense heat generated. I had experimented with what I called "dimensional resonance" which worked with evoking the correct standing wave pattern in the accelerator, and exploring which patterns evokes a very high level of fusion.


    That's about it. Substituting helium-3 would be the next step in the experimentation. The modulation to evoke resonance reduces the "brute force" electron volt equivalent to induce fusion. One could think about it as evoking "cold fusion" by knowing what resonances are needed to overcome inherent "resistance".. In fusion, think about it this way, they used the multiple laser beams to try to achieve a high brute force temperature on the target gases...their high energy level only is needed when one is trying to drive a "truck" through a brick wall (analogy for concept).. Trying it slowly to go thru the wall (achieve fusion) and the brick wall stays put (no fusion). (in physics that brick wall is analogous to something called the "coulomb barrier"). Accelerate the truck (raise the energy) and the virtual mass equivalent goes way up, allowing penetration.. (that is conventional brute force physics mindsets).. But if one knew how to vibrate the truck just right (i called it multi-dimensional resonance), the slightest amount of energy allows the truck to penetrate the wall.. Cold fusion concepts applied to a hot plasma to reduce overall energy needed... It overcomes the coulomb barrier, and that is my breakthrough.

    Keys being RF for plasma, plus a modulated DC linear accelerator and then some magnetics used as reflective barriers or mirrors.. Nothing like the magnetics needed in a tokamak..

    The walls of the toroid in the tokamak have the problem of continual field containment when increased virtual mass happens, excess non-containable neutron flux, necessitating awfully high magnetic fields to contain a circulating current.. That's the reason I would stay away from the toroid concept.


    It's awful to control and not easily modulatable. Add in the excess neutron liberation using tritium and one has a monstrocity needing high maintenance and high support keeping everything focused and balanced.

    As to the strip mining concept, separating out the different elements would be useful. I developed a magnetic/electrostatic mining separator for such things back in the 80's, able to work from the elements down to the isotopes for purification and separation.. Any materials NOT wanted to be exported back to the earth would be put back so that there wouldn't be a strip mining situation.. A temporary capture of the material, any crushing and sieving/screening and particle sizing, then insertion into the mass separator. The collecting area then captures the desired atom, and slowly molecular concentrations build up.. So it isn't really needed to "damage the moon", just extract what is needed from the top two meters of "soil".

    I would assume liquification of He-3 would be accomplished on the surface at the mining facility, probably no need to highly purify on the surface to save energy/time.

    Energy output - The total amount of energy produced in the deuterium + He-3 in a fusion reaction is 18.4 MeV, which corresponds to some 493 megawatt-hours (4.93×10e8 W·h) per every three grams (one mole) of He-3, or (164.3 megawatt-hours per gram of He-3)

    As to the raw regolith volume and concentration.. I think these are yet to be determined before one can get an accurate prediction of "value" and how much volume of raw material moves through the capture/containment, crushing/screening/milling, and or any concentration steps. If the He-3 is bound particularly to one particular component of the regolith, that may take a particular process to facilitate the least cost per volume economy.. For instance gold in earth materials can be bound that requires different steps for separate (one of the reasons I prefer the method I described above for both high-grading and separation verses conventional concepts)... In other words we could use the speculative value from the orbiting spectrometers to do some guesses, but they would be guesses because we don't know exactly what the makeup is of the soil (regolith) that we are mining just yet. ilmenite (FeTiO3) for instance is a good raw material to capture He-3 in the regolith.

    Rough Assumptions: On earth, one cubic yard of dry regolith weighs 2000 pounds or one ton. (it isn't ilmenite tho and the weight can really vary).. In the 50 ppb He-3 concentration density (which could be higher or lower) one can roughly estimate hundreds of millions of tons of lunar regolith must be mined and processed to extract a ton of Helium-3.

    So some numbers, the assumption is 6 feet deep is the concentration region in the regolith.. Let's look at 100 square miles to that depth.. The amount of cubic yards (tons) then is 619,520,000. (52800 feet linear surface distance x 52800 feet linear surface distance x 72 inches depth) that is 10 miles x 10 miles for the rectangular "field". That is a small area on the moon.

    Assuming good 'pickings', 200,000,000 raw tons then could get us 2 tons of our desired He-3 product. Assuming then 100 square miles mined properly to 6 feet deep gets us 6 tons.. (from a field 10 miles x 10 miles by 72 inches deep) Not bad. And the titanium and iron become available too.. So there is our number conversion assumption, 100 million raw tons to 1 ton of He-3.

    These are all assumptions.. subject to change on actual sampling something that the Chinese are getting their boots on the ground to start to quantify and qualify where the best places are.

    How big is a 10 mile by 10 mile area on the moon? Let's look at a crater size: The largest crater called such is about 290 kilometres (181 mi) across in diameter, located near the lunar South Pole. China's Chang'e 4 landed over a special, possibly insightful location, the Von Kármán crater, a 115-mile-wide (186 kilometer) feature.

    Let's assume just a 100 mile diameter crater for simplicity.. How many square miles is that then..? approximately 7,854 square miles (rounded). But for a simple mining operation, lets use a rectangular 88 miles by 88 miles "mine". (7744 sq miles area).. gives us 47,975,628,800 cubic yards (tons) mined. The He-3 then from that one crater (and not a very big one at that) could give us about 480 tons of Helium-3. That would be a rough approximation of the "value" of He-3 in the current crater that the Chinese are looking...

    Energy Value from mining that one crater: assumptions, 493 megawatt-hours (4.93×10e8 W·h) per every three grams of He-3 or 164.3 megawatt-hours per gram of He-3 is our theoretical fusion energy factor. How many grams in a ton? 1,016,046 grams per long ton. So, we have 480 tons or 487,702,080 grams. Multiply that out by 164.3 megawatt-hours and we have a final value of energy of 80,129,451,744 megawatt hours - potential from that one crater where the Chinese are at currently.

    A city with roughly 1 million residents like in the state of Delaware uses 12,500 MWh per day. How many days of power then are in 80,129,451,744 megawatt hours ? 6,410,356 days. Convert that into years.. 17,000 years for that ONE city.. Of course lets assume that there are 100 cities at that power level.. 17,000 / 100 = 170 years of clean power.. Not bad at all..
    Last edited by Bob; 7th January 2019 at 22:11.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Quote Posted by Bob (here)
    A city with roughly 1 million residents like in the state of Delaware uses 12,500 MWh per day. How many days of power then are in 80,129,451,744 megawatt hours ? 6,410,356 days. Convert that into years.. 17,000 years for that ONE city.. Of course lets assume that there are 100 cities at that power level.. 17,000 / 100 = 170 years of clean power.. Not bad at all..
    Thanks. Your numbers seem plausible to me, not that I am any expert in the matter.

    I agree that this "strip mining" would not cause much harm to the moon. If this helium-3, in lunar concentrations, were in desolate parts of the Sahara Desert, we could use similar "strip mining" techniques there, with little harm. It's the flora, fauna and watersheds on the land that are devastated by strip mining. The moon has no flora, fauna or watersheds.

    The key, apparently, is the practical implementation of the fusion reactors back down on earth. Detractors from the potential of lunar helium-3 to provide abundant, clean energy on earth point to the decades of very high cost and very limited success of other (well, at least the published) fusion reactor efforts (not using helium-3), and presume similarly limited success for helium-3 fusion reactors.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)

    The key, apparently, is the practical implementation of the fusion reactors back down on earth. Detractors from the potential of lunar helium-3 to provide abundant, clean energy on earth point to the decades of very high cost and very limited success of other (well, at least the published) fusion reactor efforts (not using helium-3), and presume similarly limited success for helium-3 fusion reactors.
    I think that is the main issue. The biggest argument in the combined physics/engineer is how to in their minds "ignite" the plasma, start the combination of the "fuel". And to pick fuels which won't destroy containment and then how much does it all cost for such a system, including refurbishment maintenance, ignition costs (the biggest ignition cost is the electricity in the ITER project to charge up the capacitors that will fire, to discharge into the lasers)... I considered all that "mass" and overhead unwieldy, but the same mentality got us CERN and nobody seemed to care to spend billions to get so many unemployed "scientists" and engineers and day workers to construct it, and run it, and feed the operating expenses... in hopes of understanding something new about how particles crashed together generate new "interesting" patterns.. or that we'll find dark matter or understand "subatomic-glue"..

    I went a different way, mostly from not having a hundred billion dollar budget, unlimited university facilities, and more staff and infrastructure to be minionesque doing my every bidding to build what is necessary, but we'd most likely find that they'd be developing their own "experiments" at the cost of the project.. I will leave it at 'multi-dimensional resonance' is what I focused on all my life and still do in the various projects I explore. For a lay person, a system in full dimensional resonance in space and time, high resonance, resistance can be overcome. (Zero resistance is going with the flow, whatever flow that is in the moment, and resistance is bucking the flow, whatever flow that is in the moment.)

    That is a very basic TESLA concept, and we've kept that focus but simply expanded it into something like this: (there is a thread that goes into 'is time-space more than 4 dimensions'). Tesla at best worked with 4D.. which was adequate at the time to come up with very good high efficiency work conversion systems which allowed for easy conduits for the 'work function' to be easily transferred from the "generating station" to the receiving station(s). Then what to do with "unique applications" of localized work (such as high efficiency light, motive force (motors), and defensive and offensive systems..

    Usually we'd see reference to there being 3 space and 1 time reference to mark a point in space.. Adding more "area" assuming each face on a cube (it would be a bit different if we looked at the "area" for discussion to be a spheroid), 4 per side in the cube we have 24 descriptors to deal with..

    A flow then to not buck that "cube" (have zero resistance) and ultimate going with the flow (vibrational movement because the cube is above absolute zero, there is inherent latent motion present, quite possibly we could even call that movement 'zero-point' froth..)

    So the conventional physics solution to in their words to "ignite the plasma" is beat the crap out of the cube so that it complies with the mind blowingly high levels of brute force energy coming in from the lasers ' houston, we have "ignition" '.... Beat the crap out of the particles pushing them into each other hoping that they will fuse.. (er, duhh... is my response to that)..

    A properly vibrating system if you look at it (and this is a very coarse representation, that are other factors as such as what I called the coulomb block wall(s) ) a mix can happen with a proper vibration. If that vibration covered the 24 different "dimensional factors", there would be no resistance in merging the "particles" (every particle component has to be looked at with that many dimensions, but I assume there could be developed a simplified math after it is found inherent "vibrations" are happening within each particle and sub-atomic).

    I looked at overcoming then the multi-dimensional resistance through proper multi-dimensional vibration. They use brute force and really try to overwhelm inherent resistance by blasting it all (bigger hammer).. One more analogy just to get the mind looking at visualizations..

    We all know the break the brandy goblet with the right tonal vibration, even from the voice (Mythbusters actually did an episode on this).. Hit the right pattern through resonance and the binding structure of the goblet breaks down, not able to withstand. The glass goblet is resisting and mechanically falls apart when the structure to resist is overcome. (A sonic waveform of the right resonances can then couple energy properly into the structure).. The big energy physics folks say "aw heck, take out the bloody hammer and give it a wack", and the goblet fractures..

    What is ignored in both cases is how do you then manipulate and reshape that which one has ripped apart (taken the structure apart).. Again a proper manipulative multi-dimensional waveform overcoming resistance, can move the particles into the desired orientation to assume a new resultant final object.. (hint, there is a LOT more that happens in space-time tho which is a bit off-topic and possibly we will get into that at some point...)

    Of course that should open up the mind to more concepts such as matter replication, matter transmutation, matter construction even, not just sucking out some excess particle energy (proton particle packets)...

    Here is an example of hitting a waveform into a transducer plate - (Particles sit on top of the plate - this can be done multi-dimensionally to work with the vibrations of for instance all the nucleons of atoms):


    With the right system capable of taking apart the inherent barriers of the "fuel" and then recombining properly without resistance (remember multi-dimensional resistance and resonance) then we have efficiency, low maintenance, low cost, small size (heck maybe even something the size of a hand held device could be built ! )... and if we want excess energy out in the minimum, useful electrical or thermal energy.. my earliest first concepts in 1966..
    Last edited by Bob; 7th January 2019 at 17:53.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Just a little aside - I find this ties in in regards future plans

    Elon Musk has attended the ground-breaking ceremony for a $2bn (£1.6bn) Tesla factory in Shanghai that is expected to begin producing electric cars by the end of the year.

    Gigafactory 3 will be China's first wholly foreign-owned car plant and should allow Tesla to minimise the impact of the trade war which has seen Beijing impose big tariffs on US car imports.

    It came as US and Chinese officials began talks aimed at overcoming the bruising dispute between the world's two biggest economies that has rattled markets and fuelled fears of a global slowdown.

    Tesla's factory in China - the world's biggest car market - will be its first outside the US.






    The Tesla boss said: "We think with the resources here we can build the Shanghai Gigafactory in record time and we're looking forward to hopefully having some initial production of the Model 3 towards the end of this year."

    He said the Shanghai factory would produce "affordable versions" of its Model 3 and the planned "Y" model that has yet to receive a formal name.


    https://news.sky.com/story/tesla-bre...ctory-11601134
    Last edited by Did You See Them; 7th January 2019 at 20:52.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    On the coal to megawatt hours conversion and tying it into Helium-3 fusion... This is to work out on paper the validity of the coal/helium-3 energy value comparing it to burning dirty coal.

    Burning coal is dirty and inefficient. A lot of products go up the stack besides particulates, especially neuro-toxic Mercury. see https://content.sierraclub.org/coal/disposal-ash-waste


    125,000,000 tons is 1/8 of a billion tons of coal, and that volume would come out to creating a "strip mine field" of about 4.3 miles x 4.3 miles in size, or 18 square miles, with mining a seam that is 72 inches thick. (anthracite coal is about 0.9 ton/yd³)

    If we are using the converter found on http://www.kylesconverter.com/energy...megawatt-hours we can get the amount of megawatt hours of electricity that can be produced (the conversion process isn't particularly efficient btw)..

    We get 1,017,625,000 megawatt hours for that much coal being burned.

    With an ideal Helium-3 to energy conversion, 1 gram of Helium-3 being converted into excess protons yields 164.3 megawatt-hours per gram.

    How many grams then of Helium-3 would be needed to equal the energy produced (conventionally and dirty) from 1/8 of a billion tons of coal?

    About 6,193,700 grams of Helium-3 would be needed. That comes out to about 6 long tons of Helium-3. 8 times that or 48 tons of Helium-3 would equal a billion tons of coal being converted conventionally. Seems like a good way to go as far as volumes needed, and transport costs savings needed (for rail) - the exact lunar costs to get up there on the Lunar surface to
    • SURVEY,
    • and MINE,
    • and EXTRACT,
    • and CONCENTRATE and
    • then ship back
    are not known. Nor are the costs for the Helium-3 reactor.

    So completing the "equation" on paper, assuming then a good "field" of 100 square miles mined properly to 6 feet deep gets us 6 tons of Helium-3 and that equates out to 1/8 of a billion tons of Coal being burned conventionally.. (10mi x 10mi x 72 in deep).

    Conversion into how long can a million person inhabited "City" run off a total source of 1,017,625,000 megawatt hours? Assuming a city of that size would consume 12,500 megawatt hours of energy for a day, then 1,017,625,000 / 12,500 gives us 81,410 days, or 223 years of 24 hour power. Would one have that much coal in any one area for a power plant ?

    Better than oil, better than gas, better than hydroelectric (which can vary with weather/seasons), better than solar, better than wind..

    The cost of the raw material fuel (coal) less the cost of the facility(s) to burn and convert is (1/8 of a billion tons) is $9,443,750,000 at current spot prices.

    Eventually (and probably) using multi-dimensional nano-scale resonance conversions and manipulations, Helium-3 would be able to be made on the earth directly more efficiently than now happens (tritium decay)..

    I would assume with the correctly scaled multi-dimensional-nano-fusion systems we'll see a LOT of available, non-radioactive energy for powering up real warp drive, and for matter manipulation, transmutation, and be quite practical - repeatable.. possibly even time warp technology (an intense matter or energy field density would alter time rates).

    Will it be used? Would it be politically correct? Who will control it? China?
    Last edited by Bob; 8th January 2019 at 04:20.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Thermonuclear fusion technology will not be feasible at all. Because it's artificially created condition by man not in the natural state.
    Mainstream scientists have been so delusional that Sun's source energy comes from thermonuclear fusion reaction at the core.
    The Standard Stellar Model violates laws of thermodynamics.
    They will eventually stabilize nuclear fusion reaction. But the energy to maintain nuclear fusion reactor will reduce energy efficiency down to less than 20 to 30 percent. Also thermonuclear fusion generates huge amount of radiation and high energy particles by product. It's dirty as nuclear fission energy.

    If China's moon mission is peaceful, scientific mission, then they should disclose basic sensor data that shows the surface condition of the Moon: temperature variation during the day, radiation level, electromagnetic field strength, photos of constellations, measured G force on the Moon, and etc. Of course China wouldn't release any sensitive data from the probe that nullifies 1970s Apollo Moon Missions. The Moon has been observed by X-ray telescope.
    For free society!

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    @Hughe it seems to me that many points in thread was not understood.

    It seems to me that you have some opinions and beliefs - I get that, thank you for your thoughts. I don't find a few of those points to be technically accurate, my opinion, regards how to do clean fusion.

    Clean fusion means NEUTRON-FREE fusion. Understand that please what "clean fusion" means. Neutron-free fusion reactions.

    I appreciate your post but I feel it hasn't described properly designed clean fusion systems. Properly designed systems would be clean, efficient and useful. Existing tritium fusion controlled energy generator attempts are not clean.

    That has been emphasized through-out the thread. We've tried to share the importance of understanding the Helium-3 fusion break-through, and that China (and soon others) will be on the moon, mining Helium-3 quite possibly for an upcoming energy monopoly, and quite possibly an "energy war"..

    As to China being willing to disclose products of their economic interest.

    I highly doubt they will disclose anything of value.

    Seeing China's recent history in taking over land (on earth) and their activity to be the world leaders, it makes no sense that they would allow any opponent access to what they would make it quite clear to be "their" newly found resources or technologies.

    Be well.
    Last edited by Bob; 9th January 2019 at 02:19.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Why the Far Side of the Moon Matters So Much

    China’s successful landing is part of the moon’s long geopolitical history.

    The following is from "The Atlantic"
    Humankind first laid eyes on the far side of the moon in 1968.

    “The backside looks like a sand pile my kids have been playing in for a long time,” the astronaut Bill Anders told nasa mission control. For millennia, people had gazed up at the same view of the Earth’s companion—the same craters, cracks, and fissures. As the Apollo spacecraft floated over the unfamiliar lunar surface, Anders described the new territory, which promised to be a tough landing for anyone who tried. “It’s all beat up, no definition,” he said. “Just a lot of bumps and holes.”

    Fifty years later, humankind landed in the sand pile.

    China set down a spacecraft on the far side of the moon on Wednesday, Beijing time. On Thursday, the spacecraft, named Chang’e 4, after the Chinese goddess of the moon, unlocked a hatch and released a rover onto the lunar soil. The rover carries tools designed to explore the uncharted terrain, which, thanks to a lifetime of facing the cosmos, is covered in craters.

    The landing, celebrated already as an achievement for humankind, is a reminder that people can accomplish some wonderfully wild things, given enough curiosity, skill, and rocket fuel. The first photos from the Chang’e 4 mission, captured inside a crater near the moon’s south pole, are chill-inducing. But the landing is also a distinctly geopolitical win for a nation that hadn’t even launched its first satellite when Bill Anders saw that sand pile 50 years ago.
    Some Questions of significance:

    What happens If China makes First Contact and publishes such in extreme detail?

    Should Be Worried about a War in Space?
    The story of space exploration, the kind carried out by national governments, began as a quest for national achievement and power.

    In the 1950s, the Americans and the Russians shot rocket after rocket into the sky with patriotism, not discovery, at the forefront of their minds.

    Any science that came out of it was a bonus.

    After the Soviet Union launched Sputnik, Mao Zedong instructed his country’s scientists and engineers to prepare a satellite of their own, to launch in 1959, in honor of the Great Leap Forward, the leader’s ultimately failed plan for rapid industrialization. The directive from the top to scientists was simple: “Get it up, follow it around, make it seen, make it heard.”

    But the country didn’t have the necessary technology for such a fast turnaround, and space-exploration efforts would be repeatedly derailed by political turmoil in the coming decades. The satellite launched at last in 1970, equipped with a single purpose: playing the first few bars of “The East Is Red,” an instrumental song glorifying China’s Cultural Revolution.

    In recent years, though, China’s space efforts have jumped to warp speed. When the country launched its first astronaut in 2003, it became one of only three countries to have done so. It sent an uncrewed orbiter around the moon in 2007, and a rover in 2013. In 2011, it launched a space station that astronauts visited twice before it was decommissioned and deliberately crashed into the Pacific Ocean. A second space station launched in 2016. In 2018, China launched more rockets into orbit than any other country.
    China has more bold plans for the future. The country is aiming to land a rover on Mars in early 2021 and, if successful, would become the second country after the United States to accomplish the feat. It also wants to land astronauts on the moon by 2030.

    Quote according to a recent report from the China National Space Administration (CNSA), a quinquennial document that lays out the country’s space goals for the next five years. The report, released late last month, said CNSA will launch in 2017 its first-ever cargo spacecraft, headed for the space laboratory launched last year.

    In 2018, CNSA aims to land a rover to the far side of the moon, a first for humankind. And in 2020, it plans to land a rover on Mars, a feat that has been attempted by Russia and other European nations, but only successfully accomplished by the United States.

    “Our overall goal is that, by around 2030, China will be among the major space powers of the world,” Wu Yanhua, the deputy chief of the National Space Administration, said recently.

    While the report doesn’t mention it, Chinese space officials have said they would put astronauts on the moon by the mid-2030s.

    The report demonstrates the growing capabilities of a burgeoning space program, one that’s often overlooked in a domain of other spacefaring nations, particularly the United States. China’s military-run space program began to take shape in the mid-1950s, at the start of the space race between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

    Its efforts would be repeatedly derailed by political turmoil inside the country.

    Experts say the program is a decade or so behind the leading spacefaring nations, but it’s no rookie. China is only the third country to put its own astronauts into space, and, with Americans launching to space on Russian rockets, it’s currently only one of two that retains that capacity.
    China’s civilian and military space programs—and their motivations—are inextricably linked.

    “When you are the first country to land a probe on the far side of the moon, that says something about your science and technology, that says something about your industry,” says Dean Cheng, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank in Washington, D.C., and one of the few Chinese-speaking analysts in the U.S. that focus on China’s space program.

    Will China be open in disclosing it's activities?

    The Chinese government is notoriously secretive about both its civil and military space activities, but it has at times provided small glimpses of its work in the last decade. The Shenzhou 6 launch at the Jiuquan launch facility in 2005 was broadcast live. Foreign reporters were banned from attending the launch, and such access remains restricted.

    The same goes for private citizens, who are not likely to reach Jiuquan and other launch sites, which are located in remote areas.

    For outsiders, understanding the country’s pursuits requires reading between the lines. Take CNSA’s recent mention of China’s efforts to improve its satellite remote-sensing system, for example.

    “That’s also called a spy satellite,” Cheng points out.

    The two-side nature of space exploration: A rocket can launch a capsule to the moon—or a bomb toward an enemy. Being based in space with orbiting weapons is a dire thought to ponder.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    China's new moon landing seems to put to rest the rumor that humans were warned off the moon. Does that sound reasonable when considering the fact that our new tech is on the dark side??

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Am I right to assume that whatever electronic activity noise is generated on the far side of the moon, is NOT detectable by common listening devices here on Earth ?

    Anyone ? . . . Bob ?
    .................................................. my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Hia Norman I think we really need to see which relay satellites are out there, including if something like a US solar monitoring satellite can be pointed (which the electromagnetic spectrum equipment) would be able to monitor. It is highly believed NSA and DIA have monitoring satellites, and we just don't know what is out there militarily. We just don't know what military programs exist to monitor space, or lunar objects. It is a VERY good question

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    https://thebulletin.org/2017/04/fusi...cked-up-to-be/

    Quote Daniel Jassby

    Daniel Jassby was a principal research physicist at the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab until 1999. For 25 years he worked in areas of plasma physics and neutron production related to fusion en...

    Because 80 percent of the energy in any reactor fueled by deuterium and tritium appears in the form of neutron streams, it is inescapable that such reactors share many of the drawbacks of fission reactors—including the production of large masses of radioactive waste and serious radiation damage to reactor components. These problems are endemic to any type of fusion reactor fueled with deuterium-tritium
    The Feynman Lectures on Physics is considered as a bible in physics study. (http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/) I read it too. Richard Feynman believed in (thermonuclear) fusion energy would solve energy problem of humanity. If a theory works, development of technology based on the theory takes 10 to 20 years at most. It would not require billion dollars of investment either.
    For free society!

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    I think re-reading the OP post 1's details may be helpful, there is even a diagram at the bottom of the post describing the reaction and energy output..

    Just asking, one does know that the substance TRITIUM is different than HELIUM-3 right?

    All I can suggest is to please review these posts carefully.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1267450
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1267963

    This thread's focus is on deuterium-Helium-3 which doesn't generate damaging (unshieldable) neutrons. Deuterium-Helium-3 used in a special Helium-3 reactor is what is going to be done. There have been actual experiments successfully with the University of Wisconsin working with the smallest amounts of Helium-3. There is even a picture showing that Protons and regular Helium come out.

    Please if you would, take a look at Paul's post above. He made it clear, Helium-3 is the key, no neutrons, just PROTONS (positively charged nuclei). Neutrons are damaging, protons are not because they can be easily directed, easily controlled and because of that, they won't damage the walls of the chamber.
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1268173

    Feynman was into OLD STYLE tritium as the fuel (the stuff in hydrogen bombs, which DO regularly FUSE very very well). It is staggering how well hydrogen-fusion bombs work..

    Fusion works perfectly with TRITIUM but it is awful nasty having to ignite the reaction using a small fission device as the "spark plug"; tritium fusion results in many neutrons. Atomic hydrogen bombs use tritium; the result is nasty and awful.. Fusion is so functional, getting it to be done without neutron damage has been at the focus, and the finding of the right fuel then, Helium-3 is that right focus.

    Helium 3 though is CLEAN, University of Wisconsin is pioneering this right now. The amount of research on Helium-3 is frankly staggering.

    Lastly simple fusion is done ALL the time in neutron generators which are used in medical, the oil field, chemistry and so forth..

    So one more time, there are plenty of fusion systems based on deuterium-tritium. MANY. Those tritium fusion systems generate copious amounts of neutrons in the operation.

    This THREAD though is not about the tokamak's which are the attempt to do fusion-power using TRITIUM..

    This Thread is about who's currently on the moon, exploring, and looking for Helium-3 for powering up energy generating systems that could provide for many hundreds if not thousands of years of clean electrical energy, using NON-NEUTRON generating fusion..

    thanks for your understanding.

    Quote Daniel Jassby was a principal research physicist at the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab until 1999. For 25 years he worked in areas of plasma physics and neutron production related to fusion en...

    Because 80 percent of the energy in any reactor fueled by deuterium and tritium appears in the form of neutron streams,
    From your post above, you mention deuterium and tritium.. Please note the differences.
    Last edited by Bob; 9th January 2019 at 02:27.

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    Default Re: What are they doing on the moon? China, Israel, soon the US?

    Well, there is the lander, according to China, in a very nice high resolution picture taken by the Rover.


    One can get a few of the surroundings too.. The rover's exiting tracks can be seen going off to the right of the picture.

    That's quite a pretty looking machine !

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