The Hoaxes of Deborah Tavares

[Mayacaman]

From the very beginning of my communications with "Snoop"

From the very beginning of my communications with Snoop, he has done his damndest to represent me as a partisan of Deborah Tavares, and an "enemy" of the Truth, Itself. This is the Delphi technique - to isolate the Object of venom - at which this person "Snoop4truth" is an Adept.

I will re-iterate, as I said in this earlier post, (Below) one of my first dealings with this tar-baby: "I don't play the binary game {Which Side Are You On?} favored by the Stalinists of the Left and Right."

But Snoop does play that game - to the hilt, and therefore, all of my protestations to the contrary, he and his auxiliaries still deem it best - for their purposes - to discredit me either as a deluded "follower" or "disciple" or "close friend" of this Deborah Tavares {though now xylo has taken to accusing me of knowing "nothing" of her work - which is actually more accurate.)

"Snoop4truth" has been detailed the Assignment of totally discrediting Deborah Tavares, Anita Larkin & Rodney Dale Class - and there will be other Objects of Opprobrium, further down the line, you can count on it... And he will not rest until the Job is accomplished - obviously. That is the sort of "work" that he does. It is his "Job" - and is it not a witch-hunt? You, the Public be the Judge.

To Date, he refuses to Render an Answer to my Objections to his Litany of itemized points in the Two ( 2 ) Points that I have Listed (Above, Post# 269 ) - Which are certainly relevant to his crusade for "TRUTH - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS." -Since they are, in essence, the Achilles Heal of his whole House of Cards.

And Snoop knows this. That is why he and his aide-de-camp, "Xylo" are peddling so fast to avoid the showdown when other listeners/viewers of this post might begin to ask Snoop why on earth he doesn't address my Questions...

After all, they are relevant to at least a portion of his Testimony. - Two Points. That is all I can chew off at this time. That is where I Stake the Ground to take my Stand.

For Snoop maintains that there is no such thing as the "United States Corporation" -Neither did it go Bankrupt in 1933, and that all of the Agencies of the US government are in no way, Corporatist, Delaware Corporations.

-And he wants you, gentle readers, to think that to believe such things is to accept dangerous "conspiracy theories" that were cooked up by "Deborah Tavares" & her "partner"{in crime} - this nefarious "Rodney Dale Class" who lives in South Carolina.

Well, he is quite Wrong on these points: On the Bankruptcy of the United States Corporation in 1933 & the Corporate nature of the Alphabet Agencies that were set up in the first two years of the New Deal.

I learned about All of this way back in the 1980's - long before I ever went on-line - back before the Archives in the closed stacks of the Public Libraries were "sanitized." I ran into hard copy data concerning these things -much of which has been looted out of my own files in my personal Archives at home, by "sleuths4data" -Cadre who visit my Homestead on occasion, when I am away, and who always forget to leave their calling cards.

I certainly never heard these things from Deborah Tavares, nor did I learn about them from this "Rodney Dale Class" - whom I never heard of at all, until I heard about him from "snoop4truth."

Just check out Snoop's language (since, "toned down," {his words} in this early exchange between us):

Mayacaman wrote:

Look Snoop, I don't have a dog in this race. I actually am not a partisan - of Deborah Tavares or of any one else. I don't play the binary game {Which Side Are You On?} favored by the Stalinists of the Left and Right. For my part, I discern that you, Snoop, engage in the technique known as the "snowjob." - Which is another way of saying that you put forth too many words.

I just don't like slander or libel - of anyone, by any one. That is why I made the comment above, and that is the sum of my involvement and my concern.

You have failed to persuade me of anything. I am not interested in the multitude of your "links." TMI - too much information. Somehow, your much vaunted altruism has failed to come off as such - at least to this one.

Sincerely, & solidly,
politically non-partisan

Mark Walter Evans

YOUR COMMENT: Look Snoop, I don't have a dog in this race.

MY RESPONSE: Yes, you do. Do not pretend otherwise. You aren't fooling anybody.

YOUR COMMENT: I actually am not a partisan - of Deborah Tavares or of any one else.

MY RESPONSE: Yes, you are. Do not pretend otherwise. You aren't fooling anybody.

YOUR COMMENT: I don't play the binary game {Which Side Are You On?} favored by the Stalinists of the Left and Right.

MY RESPONSE: Please. Give me a break. That is precisely the game that you play. Indeed, you play no other game. You mistakenly believe that you and Deborah Tavares are on one side and that I am on the other. You reach this mistaken conclusion because both you and Deborah Tavares are conspiracy theorists. But, you are mistaken. A person, like Deborah Tavares, who intentionally defrauds you is not actually on your side. She is actually your enemy. But, you do not yet realize it. A person, like me, who tells you the truth is actually on your side. I am actually your friend. But, you do not yet realize it. Hopefully, one day you will.

YOUR COMMENT: For my part, I discern...

MY RESPONSE: You do no such thing. Your analysis is entirely superficial. All Deborah Tavares has to do is wrap herself in the flag of conspiracy theory and you simply turn your critical thinking skills off and mindlessly accept every claim that she makes. Indeed, you do not actually care whether Deborah Tavares' claims are true or false because her claims validate your own belief system. And, you do not want to challenge your own belief system. So, you mindlessly reject all facts that are inconsistent with the claims of Deborah Tavares, as you have shown here. That mindless rejection of facts is not using your critical thinking skills. That mindless rejection of facts is not "discernment". That mindless rejection of facts is simply self-imposed ignorance. Nothing more. If it hasn't occurred to you yet, Deborah Tavares can wrap herself in the flag of conspiracy theory AND still be intentionally defrauding you. One does not rule out the other. Wake up! Think. There are pathological liars on BOTH sides of the conspiracy debate. But, you do not realize it yet. Hopefully, one day you will.

YOUR COMMENT: ...that you, Snoop, engage in the technique known as the "snowjob." - Which is another way of saying that you put forth too many words.

MY RESPONSE: In carefully avoiding the subject of whether my claims are factually true (the only thing that actually matters), you have desperately and repeatedly tried to shift the focus away from the truth to a number of IRRELEVANT SUBJECTS. You have previously complained about my use of a pseudonym (as if that makes the truth false). You have previously complained about my method (my "modus operandi") of revealing the truth (as if that makes he truth false). You have even previously complained about my allegedly receiving payment for telling the truth (as if that makes the truth false). Now, you complain about my "technique" in telling the truth (as if that makes the truth false). Specifically, now you complain that the truth has "too many words" (as if that makes the truth false). But, you are slipping. You forgot to complain about a number of OTHER IRRELEVANT SUBJECTS. You forgot to complain about my use of heavy emphasis, my use of bold type, my use of capital letters, my use of italic type, my use of color, my use of underlines, my use of links to the proof, etc. (as if any of that makes the truth false).

If you had bothered to actually read my work before you began complaining about it, you would have realized that the VERY FIRST POST in this thread contains a concise summary of ALL 16 HOAXES of Deborah Tavares. In that ONE, SINGLE POST, each hoax is concisely described IN JUST A FEW SENTENCES. Check it and see. Each explanation is short. That ONE SINGLE POST reveals the substance of every Deborah Tavares hoax uncovered as of today. All of the remaining posts are longer BECAUSE THEY CONTAIN PROOF (for those who demand proof, who think for themselves and who prefer to use their own critical thinking skills in reaching their own conclusions). You may not yet be among these people. But, hopefully, one day you will be.

And, if it has not occurred to you yet, it is the fact that Deborah Tavares has engaged in SO MANY HOAXES that this thread is so long in the first place. Am I to blame for the shear number of hoaxes that Deborah Tavares has engaged in too? How does the math work for that? If this list of Deborah Tavares hoaxes is too long, then Deborah Tavares herself deserves all the credit. Not me.

YOUR COMMENT: I just don't like slander or libel - of anyone, by any one.

MY RESPONSE: Nobody likes libel or slander. But, the terms, libel and slander, have no application here. I am a lawyer. So, I know what those words actually mean. I know who has the burden of proof. I know what elements have to be proven. I know the standards applicable to public figures, like Deborah Tavares. I know that truth is an absolute defense. My claims are absolutely, verifiably true. And, Deborah Tavares knows it. Just ask her. Thus, my claims are not slander or libel (which must be false to be actionable). The fact that the truth about Deborah Tavares paints an unflattering picture of her will not convert the truth into slander or libel. The truth will still be the truth. Am I to blame for the fact that the truth about Deborah Tavares paints an unflattering portrait of who she REALLY is as a human being? How does the math work for that? If the truth about Deborah Tavares is unflattering, then Deborah Tavares herself deserves all the credit. Not me.

YOUR COMMENT: That is why I made the comment above, and that is the sum of my involvement and my concern.

MY RESPONSE: Sure it is. That explains why you have spent most of your time complaining about my use of a pseudonym, my method for telling the truth, my alleged payment for telling the truth, my technique for telling the truth, my use of too many words in telling the truth, etc. Please. Give me a break.

You are not fooling anybody. WHAT YOU ACTUALLY OPPOSE IS THE TRUTH ITSELF and that is why you made the comment above and that is the sum of your involvement and your concern. And, everybody knows it.

YOUR COMMENT: You have failed to persuade me of anything.

MY RESPONSE: Your self-imposed ignorance harms nobody but you. There are many others online who actually want to know the facts, regardless of what those facts turn out to be. There are many others online who actually want to know the truth, regardless of what that truth turns out to be. There are many others online with the courage and the intellectual capacity to consider and analyze facts that are inconsistent with their own belief system. You may not yet be among them. But, hopefully, one day you will be. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

YOUR COMMENT: I am not interested in the multitude of your "links." TMI - too much information.

MY RESPONSE: Your disinterest is quite understandable. To a person like you, who actually opposes the truth itself, any amount of truth is too much truth, links or no links. But, to those who actually seek the truth, no amount of truth is enough truth, exactly the opposite of people like you. It is those people for whom I do my work. My target readers are those who actually seek the truth, who demand proof of the truth and who prefer to use their own critical thinking skills in reaching the own conclusions. You may not yet be among them. But, hopefully, one day you will be. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

YOUR COMMENT: Somehow, your much vaunted altruism has failed to come off as such - at least to this one.

MY RESPONSE: I have enough faith in you and your abilities to believe that your ideas will change about that.

Regards,

Snoop

Last edited by snoop4truth; 06-01-2019 at 11:27 AM. Reason: To soften the tone.

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[Forest Denizen]

Guys,

I am going to close this thread for 24 hours or so to let you all cool off and perhaps gain a little perspective while we discuss, behind the scenes, what's going on here.

Maybe you could step outside, enjoy the sunset..

With Love,

Ken

[Bill Ryan]

Re-opening the thread now. Mayacaman has been shown the door. He'll see this window, the next time he logs in.

Mark, you basically came here to troll, and you've shown clearly that despite many warnings. Enough now. Take your personal vendetta elsewhere. But not here.

[xylo]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Re-opening the thread now. Mayacaman has been shown the door. He'll see this window, the next time he logs in.

Mark, you basically came here to troll, and you've shown clearly that despite many warnings. Enough now. Take your personal vendetta elsewhere. But not here.

Thank You Bill, Ken, Contance, Cara, and all other Mods,

This has been a harrowing chapter in a harrowing journey. As can been seen in mayacaman’s posts, there are numerous slanders, lots of name-calling, provocations, taunts and much bullying. All of that with -0- detectable relevant content (by my estimation) that accurately relates to the subject of this this thread and Snoop’s exhaustively detailed list of debunked Tavares hoaxes.

While it’s ugly to read, in mayacaman’s last post you will see use of the term “tar-baby” as a way of addressing Snoop. That example (along with the rest of mayacaman's bully trolling posts) illustrate the methodology of an interesting subset of organized and solo operatives within the “truther movement.”

To frame the situation: Like the “new age movement”, the truther community is an alernative, edge of mainstream occurrence populated by people who are rejecting established traditional views and searching for real truth and new answers. As such, the field is wide open for new and usually self-proclaimed leaders and researchers (who will lead The Willing) to step up onto the soapbox. (BTW, If you have trouble making a soapbox, your local hardware and lumber emporium will usually help). Once up and onto the soapbox, leaders will present, educate and influence The Willing who are open-minded and largely vulnerable. The Willing find themselves facing a bevy of options, from the genuinely good intentioned and well-informed teachers to disinformation agents, gatekeepers, shills and conintelpro-type operatives who are often (technically) psychopathic. (I am speaking in general terms, of course. I have no idea what the state of mayacaman’s mental health is, and I assume he is a model citizen and revered presence within his community.)

Psychopaths seizing upon The (hapless) Willing. It’s all up for grabs. In a larger sense, that is what this thread is about and I hope will serve as an archive to stimulate critical thinking for those who find themselves at a crossroads in their journey to truth. It certainly helped me. Deborah Tavares, perhaps because of her extraordinary tenacity, willingness to deceive, astute self-promotion and sharply-focused targeting of those who are either new to the quest, uneducated, fearful and marginally literate or otherwise cult-prone, has been an increasingly influential speaker and presenter within the “truther” community. Because of her looks, age, money, maternal position and history within gray area right wing extremist groups in the earlier part of this century, Tavares has propelled herself into a position where she now gathers followers who do not question what she says, accept her foundation of alleged “documents” as being real without having scrutinized, and worship/promote her like a messiah. It’s a loose-knit, unorganized cult. This brand of devotion is one in which critical thinking, skepticism or questioning is frowned upon. Attempts to challenge the narrative are quickly extinguished by sycophantic members the group, and sometimes one of the staff and associates who surround and support her. I found this out for myself as I emerged from the Tavares group and began to pose questions and requests for verification within the group’s gathering point, stopthecrime.net on YouTube. Once began I questioning, I found myself flanked by those who called me a troll, characterized me as a government operative, a “hit man” (Tavares’ term”) and shill. In other words, no response to the questions, just attacks designed to marginalize and humiliate much in the way that “conspiracy theorist” is thrown at real truthers in an effort to put them out of business, at least in the eyes of the rest of the group.

Mayacaman is probably the most crafty, tenacious, educated and persistent operative I have ever come up against. I assume he is solo, but who knows. Here are are the some things to understand when encountering this type of individual:
* they never enter a thread by showing respect and asking questions or requesting clarification so as to be informed before speaking.
* they always come in swinging. Sarcasm, dissing. attempts to humiliate, provocations, challenges.
* No amount of fact or logic will have an effect in responding to these individuals.
* Responses to your input will be your own words or opinions, distorted, mischaracterized and thrown back at you as a weaponized challenge.
* It is a complete mistake to respond to the distortions.
* The only way to deal with this situation is to try and remain untriggered. Respond in a levelheaded way, and steer the focus back to the subject. Don’t give energy to false allegations or provocations.
* become informed on the subject of codependence.

Be careful out there. I am certain there are psychopaths present in all governments, corporations, communities and social circles. There are also psychopaths within the population of people who live in the fringes of and outside of communities. They don’t have to be murderers, swindlers or violent. Their only purpose is to mess with your head, keep you off balance, perhaps gain your subservience, disempower you, marginalize, beat you down and decimate your self-esteem. I assume they feed off of this type of activity. They are compulsive conflict seekers. All psychopaths are, I think, also narcissists. I’m not sure if all narcissists are psychopaths. Narcissists can be just as devastating, and perhaps even more so because they likely garner more trust from others than do extreme psychopaths. Regardless, both are predators and both are omnipresent within the alternative communities.

I’m glad Mayacan’s posts remain here. Maybe you agree with him. Maybe they serve as a example to learn from. Demand integrity from your sources. There is a lot of nefarious stuff going on. I was late to understand that hoaxsters and flying monkeys abound. My tendency was to assume the best and lend credibility. Only in the last few years have I paid enough attention to recognize not only the alarming situation we’re in, but understand the amount of manipulation and covert attempts in action designed to destabilize, disable, redirect and control the “the resistance” (those who no longer believe the official story). Duh, I never would have guessed. But now I know. Demand integrity from your sources. Double check it all. Apply critical thought. Avoid self-defeating comfort zones, If something doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t.

Thanks for reading and I hope my input helps someone.

Great forum here, thanks Avalon,

xylo

[snoop4truth]

Posted by xylo (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Re-opening the thread now. Mayacaman has been shown the door. He'll see this window, the next time he logs in.

Mark, you basically came here to troll, and you've shown clearly that despite many warnings. Enough now. Take your personal vendetta elsewhere. But not here.

Thank You Bill, Ken, Contance, Cara, and all other Mods,

This has been a harrowing chapter in a harrowing journey. As can been seen in mayacaman’s posts, there are numerous slanders, lots of name-calling, provocations, taunts and much bullying. All of that with -0- detectable relevant content (by my estimation) that accurately relates to the subject of this this thread and Snoop’s exhaustively detailed list of debunked Tavares hoaxes.

While it’s ugly to read, in mayacaman’s last post you will see use of the term “tar-baby” as a way of addressing Snoop. That example (along with the rest of mayacaman's bully trolling posts) illustrate the methodology of an interesting subset of organized and solo operatives within the “truther movement.”

To frame the situation: Like the “new age movement”, the truther community is an alernative, edge of mainstream occurrence populated by people who are rejecting established traditional views and searching for real truth and new answers. As such, the field is wide open for new and usually self-proclaimed leaders and researchers (who will lead The Willing) to step up onto the soapbox. (BTW, If you have trouble making a soapbox, your local hardware and lumber emporium will usually help). Once up and onto the soapbox, leaders will present, educate and influence The Willing who are open-minded and largely vulnerable. The Willing find themselves facing a bevy of options, from the genuinely good intentioned and well-informed teachers to disinformation agents, gatekeepers, shills and conintelpro-type operatives who are often (technically) psychopathic. (I am speaking in general terms, of course. I have no idea what the state of mayacaman’s mental health is, and I assume he is a model citizen and revered presence within his community.)

Psychopaths seizing upon The (hapless) Willing. It’s all up for grabs. In a larger sense, that is what this thread is about and I hope will serve as an archive to stimulate critical thinking for those who find themselves at a crossroads in their journey to truth. It certainly helped me. Deborah Tavares, perhaps because of her extraordinary tenacity, willingness to deceive, astute self-promotion and sharply-focused targeting of those who are either new to the quest, uneducated, fearful and marginally literate or otherwise cult-prone, has been an increasingly influential speaker and presenter within the “truther” community. Because of her looks, age, money, maternal position and history within gray area right wing extremist groups in the earlier part of this century, Tavares has propelled herself into a position where she now gathers followers who do not question what she says, accept her foundation of alleged “documents” as being real without having scrutinized, and worship/promote her like a messiah. It’s a loose-knit, unorganized cult. This brand of devotion is one in which critical thinking, skepticism or questioning is frowned upon. Attempts to challenge the narrative are quickly extinguished by sycophantic members the group, and sometimes one of the staff and associates who surround and support her. I found this out for myself as I emerged from the Tavares group and began to pose questions and requests for verification within the group’s gathering point, stopthecrime.net on YouTube. Once began I questioning, I found myself flanked by those who called me a troll, characterized me as a government operative, a “hit man” (Tavares’ term”) and shill. In other words, no response to the questions, just attacks designed to marginalize and humiliate much in the way that “conspiracy theorist” is thrown at real truthers in an effort to put them out of business, at least in the eyes of the rest of the group.

Mayacaman is probably the most crafty, tenacious, educated and persistent operative I have ever come up against. I assume he is solo, but who knows. Here are are the some things to understand when encountering this type of individual:
* they never enter a thread by showing respect and asking questions or requesting clarification so as to be informed before speaking.
* they always come in swinging. Sarcasm, dissing. attempts to humiliate, provocations, challenges.
* No amount of fact or logic will have an effect in responding to these individuals.
* Responses to your input will be your own words or opinions, distorted, mischaracterized and thrown back at you as a weaponized challenge.
* It is a complete mistake to respond to the distortions.
* The only way to deal with this situation is to try and remain untriggered. Respond in a levelheaded way, and steer the focus back to the subject. Don’t give energy to false allegations or provocations.
* become informed on the subject of codependence.

Be careful out there. I am certain there are psychopaths present in all governments, corporations, communities and social circles. There are also psychopaths within the population of people who live in the fringes of and outside of communities. They don’t have to be murderers, swindlers or violent. Their only purpose is to mess with your head, keep you off balance, perhaps gain your subservience, disempower you, marginalize, beat you down and decimate your self-esteem. I assume they feed off of this type of activity. They are compulsive conflict seekers. All psychopaths are, I think, also narcissists. I’m not sure if all narcissists are psychopaths. Narcissists can be just as devastating, and perhaps even more so because they likely garner more trust from others than do extreme psychopaths. Regardless, both are predators and both are omnipresent within the alternative communities.

I’m glad Mayacan’s posts remain here. Maybe you agree with him. Maybe they serve as a example to learn from. Demand integrity from your sources. There is a lot of nefarious stuff going on. I was late to understand that hoaxsters and flying monkeys abound. My tendency was to assume the best and lend credibility. Only in the last few years have I paid enough attention to recognize not only the alarming situation we’re in, but understand the amount of manipulation and covert attempts in action designed to destabilize, disable, redirect and control the “the resistance” (those who no longer believe the official story). Duh, I never would have guessed. But now I know. Demand integrity from your sources. Double check it all. Apply critical thought. Avoid self-defeating comfort zones, If something doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t.

Thanks for reading and I hope my input helps someone.

Great forum here, thanks Avalon,

xylo

Hello xylo, peterpam, Gemma13 and other soldiers for truth,

Check out the new video from "Virgo Triad" on Deborah Tavares and "The NASA War Document Hoax".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQZmq_vMcSQ

Please post links to this video everywhere you can.

On a different subject, I am still at it. But, during the past few weeks, I have been doing research into the alleged "1933 Bankruptcy Of The United States" (a claim supported by the "FAKE Jim Traficant Speech Hoax", a Deborah Tavares hoax). So, I am still doing what I do. But, I cannot type accurate information until I have obtained accurate information to type. Please bear with me.

Miss you guys.

Keep up the good work.

Hugs,

Snoop

[Gemma13]

Really great to see you getting some visual aid coverage Snoop - will certainly help those that find it difficult to read lengthy data.

[snoop4truth]

Posted by Gemma13 (here)
Really great to see you getting some visual aid coverage Snoop - will certainly help those that find it difficult to read lengthy data.

Hello Gemma13,

I agree completely.

As this very thread clearly demonstrates, Deborah Tavares' followers do not read anything.

Their sole source of information is videos.

This is how they got duped in the first place.

This is also how Deborah Tavares has gotten away with her fraud for all these years.

Illiteracy is a very dangerous thing for a society.

On a different subject, Virgo Triad told me she would post a Snoop4truth video every Wednesday in which she would cover another hoax that I exposed.

She likes the Deborah Tavares stuff because it is new to her listeners (her main subjects are sovereign citizens and the "Moors").

The comments below her YouTube Deborah Tavares videos are terrific.

Did you see her Snoopy Detective logo?

HAHA!

She has too versions. One Blue. One Red.

Today, she emailed me the NEW Snoop4truth THEME SONG for Snoop4truth Wednesdays.

One of her loyal subscribers wrote it and recorded it for her.

It is entitled "MISSION IMPLAUSIBLE"!

HAHAHA!

I would post it here, but I can't figure out how.

You'll have to hear it on next week's "Snoop4truth Wednesday"!

All The Best,

Snoop

[xylo]

Snoop!

Just watched the new Virgo Triad video debunking the “NASA War Document” (ha, war doc indeed, what a joke). Great! It’s so good to finally witness pushback to Tavares’ insane fear-mongering on YouTube. You and Virgo hit the nail on the head by pointing out that Tavares’ listener base doesn’t read. Some of them can’t write either. Thinking appears to be a challenge too. Many are only marginally literate. Parroting? No problem there, they seem to excel at parroting. All of this not to be trivialized at all. Leveraging ignorance with fear can bring dangerous results. So....there’s hope, and thank you for your great work. It’s taken time, but I think the reward for your work is in progress, people are being helped.

Best always,

xylo

[snoop4truth]

Posted by xylo (here)
Snoop!

Just watched the new Virgo Triad video debunking the “NASA War Document” (ha, war doc indeed, what a joke). Great! It’s so good to finally witness pushback to Tavares’ insane fear-mongering on YouTube. You and Virgo hit the nail on the head by pointing out that Tavares’ listener base doesn’t read. Most of them can’t write either. Thinking appears to be a challenge too. They’re only marginally literate. Parroting? No problem there, they seem to excel at parroting. All of this not to be trivialized at all. Leveraging ignorance with fear is can bring dangerous results. Lately I’ve been alerting advertisers whose money is being used by YouTube to support her hate-mongering, and I’ve seen some positive results. The advertisements are being whittled down to stupid war, killing and gambling video games. One business wrote back to me expressing thanks. They absolutely didn’t want the association with genocide myth peddling, and I have not seen one of their ads run since. Previously they were the ad most seen on her channel (video camera store). Nothing now in 2 days. I may have also been successful with Apple, we will see if any Apple ads are run in the future, I’ve seen nothing for a few days. So....there’s hope, and thank you for your great work. It’s taken time, but I think the reward is in progress, people are being helped.

Best always,

xylo

Hello xylo,

Thanks and agreed.

We need to post links to Virgo Triad's videos EVERYWHERE.

I can't wait until for Virgo's version of the Agenda 21 Hoax and the Forged PG&E Email Hoax.

Anyone know who else we can get to do videos on this stuff?

Hugs,

Snoop

[xylo]

Posted by onawah (here)
My feelings about Tavares were that she is still very shell-shocked by losing her Sonoma home to fire, that she is having difficulty continuing to make her living as a real estate developer because of new laws, and in keeping her information and her website organized and her life on track, which isn't hard to believe if she is telling her story truthfully.
So I've been giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I am certainly open to digging deeper.
If there are other whistle blowers who can corroborate Snoop4truth's accusations, I hope he will make us aware of them.
Because as a conspiracy theorist, I'm not all that ready to believe that someone who is going up against Agenda 21 is a hoaxer, since it's usually the other way around.

Onowah,

Fwiiw and for your consideration, I’ve never been able to validate the rumor that she lost her Sonoma county home. She lives in Sebastopol. She’s seizes upon any subject to develop into content, and I’m certain if she had lost her home she would have used that, especially since it would be true and verifiable. Further and from her own words, her decision to leave the real estate development business was based on diminished profit margins as a result of new regulations. As she put it (paraphrased) “it just wasn’t worth doing anymore so we decided to retire young an travel the world.” No “financial struggle” indicated or even mentioned by her, and I’ve heard all of her presentations at least twice. It’s readily apparent that she is wealthy from family money accumulated by her parents and grandparents who as “builders” (= masons?) participated in the development of Los Angeles from the early 20th century until she took over the business. She’s described traveling the world and spending a year in Holland as a girl on the family schooner. She says she employs a staff. She’s placed herself into an arena where it’s quite easy to pull the wool over people’s eyes with little or no scrutiny. She uses tidbits of basic truth but the major portion of her talk is exaggeration, conjecture and in many cases, outright fiction. There are hoaxters everywhere. Just because she’s been successful in gaining trust within a sliver of the truther community does not mean that she is honest or in integrity.

[xylo]

Posted by yelik (here)
too much information !!!!

I disagree, but it’s subjective. In my case, Snoop’s efforts provide a great amount of information. True vetting comes as a result of comparing information from multiple sources and then tallying the results. That’s exactly what Snoop has given us. Instead of trying to take it all in at once, I use to on a case-by-case basis as each opportunity presents itself to properly inform those who simply believe Tavares without applying critical thought. Her listeners are stubborn and cult-like, more interested in their fascination with her hair, punishing manner, high school teacher method of delivery and personality, but still I’ve seen some positive results in the form of die-hard supporters coming around. Once anyone begins to challenge her allegations, the ball of yarn unravels quickly. In that regard, Snoop’s work is an invaluable resource.

[xylo]

Hello All,

Very interesting things I’ve learned in the past week. I’ve complained formally to YouTube, twice, citing videos that blatantly violate their hate speech policies. No responses, no action from YouTube. I’ve reported listener comments under her postings that blatantly break their hate speech and community guidelines policies. Comments that call for murder, persecution based on religion, encourage mob violence and express a plan to commit suicide. YouTube lets all those comments stand. While every single channel that mentions the word c on spi rac y has by now been eliminated, censored or at the very least demonetized, Tavares alone remains immune to censorship and heavily monetized. What does this mean? To me it says she’s sponsored. Her value: adding to the destabilization of society, contributing to the divide and conquer agenda, manipulation of weak minded and vulnerable people through the use of fear and fiction, and (perhaps most importantly) giving credence to the term “c ons p ira c y theorist.” Bottom line for me: this experience has proven that there is indeed an invisible control mechanism at work, and she an asset to that agenda. Her methodology fits the form, and I’ll mention these additional giveaway characteristics: use of mind-controlling repetition of key words, the colors she always chooses to wear (figure that out for yourselves, black/white/red) and connection to the military. As they say, members of those secret societies always use colors to signal their allegiance. I didn’t neccessarily believe that, but now I’m not so sure. So much for YouTube’s “dedication to maintaining a platform that is “safe”. Phht.

[waves]

Posted by xylo (here)

Posted by onawah (here)
My feelings about Tavares were that she is still very shell-shocked by losing her Sonoma home to fire, that she is having difficulty continuing to make her living as a real estate developer because of new laws, and in keeping her information and her website organized and her life on track, which isn't hard to believe if she is telling her story truthfully.
So I've been giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I am certainly open to digging deeper.
If there are other whistle blowers who can corroborate Snoop4truth's accusations, I hope he will make us aware of them.
Because as a conspiracy theorist, I'm not all that ready to believe that someone who is going up against Agenda 21 is a hoaxer, since it's usually the other way around.

Onowah,

Fwiiw and for your consideration, I’ve never been able to validate the rumor that she lost her Sonoma county home. She lives in Sebastopol. She’s seizes upon any subject to develop into content, and I’m certain if she had lost her home she would have used that, especially since it would be true and verifiable. Further and from her own words, her decision to leave the real estate development business was based on diminished profit margins as a result of new regulations. As she put it (paraphrased) “it just wasn’t worth doing anymore so we decided to retire young an travel the world.” No “financial struggle” indicated or even mentioned by her, and I’ve heard all of her presentations at least twice. It’s readily apparent that she is wealthy from family money accumulated by her parents and grandparents who as “builders” (= masons?) participated in the development of Los Angeles from the early 20th century until she took over the business. She’s described traveling the world a spending a year in Holland as a girl on the family schooner. She says she employs a staff. She’s placed herself into an arena where it’s quite easy to pull the wool over people’s eyes with little of no scrutiny. She uses tidbits of basic truth but the major portion of her talk is exaggeration, conjecture and in many cases, outright fiction. There are hoaxters everywhere. Just because she’s been successful in gaining trust within a sliver of the truther community does not mean that she is honest or in integrity.

I would still bet my house in an instant there is great deceit going on in this snoop-xylo mutual arse kissing thread. This thread is a total oddity from all past 1000's of threads at Avalon for very creepy reasons overflowing with red flags.

But Avalon is just another stop on the character named 'snoop's long term agenda. You can find 1000's of copy/paste repeats of these bloated posts here by 'snoop' for years now. You'll find lots of repeats of the 'this just in' posts. LOL I'm disgusted with Avalon for tolerating this garbage.

'xylo' it's obvious your sudden timely first appearance at Avalon right after 'snoop' and the only real reason to be here is to appear to be supporting snoop. You didn't even notice Onowah left weeks ago... and the post you quoted says she's gone. I'm not convinced you and snoop are even two different people though you may be two different people in the same organization. This thread is 99% just you two congratulating each other with one or two other Avalonians having bought into it lock, stock and barrel too without considering the very glaring red flags.

I call this whole thread a huge deceit and a huge operative to push a narrative over the years. I don't buy the way over bloated posts or legitimacy of the premise of any of this thread as a Tavares discrediting crusade. I smell great deceit within deceit. I especially don't trust the aggressive, snarky, sneaky, hiding players putting on this two character licking each other show.

What I am seeing more and more now after years of observation is how aggressive the disinfo enemies have been over the years and how they planted 'set-ups' all over the internet long ago and have tried very hard to infiltrate every teeny and tiny corner of the truth movement they can find.

They haven't fooled everyone.

[xylo]

Posted by waves (here)

Posted by xylo (here)

Posted by onawah (here)
My feelings about Tavares were that she is still very shell-shocked by losing her Sonoma home to fire, that she is having difficulty continuing to make her living as a real estate developer because of new laws, and in keeping her information and her website organized and her life on track, which isn't hard to believe if she is telling her story truthfully.
So I've been giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I am certainly open to digging deeper.
If there are other whistle blowers who can corroborate Snoop4truth's accusations, I hope he will make us aware of them.
Because as a conspiracy theorist, I'm not all that ready to believe that someone who is going up against Agenda 21 is a hoaxer, since it's usually the other way around.

Onowah,

Fwiiw and for your consideration, I’ve never been able to validate the rumor that she lost her Sonoma county home. She lives in Sebastopol. She’s seizes upon any subject to develop into content, and I’m certain if she had lost her home she would have used that, especially since it would be true and verifiable. Further and from her own words, her decision to leave the real estate development business was based on diminished profit margins as a result of new regulations. As she put it (paraphrased) “it just wasn’t worth doing anymore so we decided to retire young an travel the world.” No “financial struggle” indicated or even mentioned by her, and I’ve heard all of her presentations at least twice. It’s readily apparent that she is wealthy from family money accumulated by her parents and grandparents who as “builders” (= masons?) participated in the development of Los Angeles from the early 20th century until she took over the business. She’s described traveling the world a spending a year in Holland as a girl on the family schooner. She says she employs a staff. She’s placed herself into an arena where it’s quite easy to pull the wool over people’s eyes with little of no scrutiny. She uses tidbits of basic truth but the major portion of her talk is exaggeration, conjecture and in many cases, outright fiction. There are hoaxters everywhere. Just because she’s been successful in gaining trust within a sliver of the truther community does not mean that she is honest or in integrity.

I would still bet my house in an instant there is great deceit going on in this snoop-xylo mutual arse kissing thread. This thread is a total oddity from all past 1000's of threads at Avalon for very creepy reasons overflowing with red flags.

But Avalon is just another stop on the character named 'snoop's long term agenda. You can find 1000's of copy/paste repeats of these bloated posts here by 'snoop' for years now. You'll find lots of repeats of the 'this just in' posts. LOL I'm disgusted with Avalon for tolerating this garbage.

'xylo' it's obvious your sudden timely first appearance at Avalon right after 'snoop' and the only real reason to be here is to appear to be supporting snoop. You didn't even notice Onowah left weeks ago... and the post you quoted says she's gone. I'm not convinced you and snoop are even two different people though you may be two different people in the same organization. This thread is 99% just you two congratulating each other with one or two other Avalonians having bought into it lock, stock and barrel too without considering the very glaring red flags.

I call this whole thread a huge deceit and a huge operative to push a narrative over the years. I don't buy the way over bloated posts or legitimacy of the premise of any of this thread as a Tavares discrediting crusade. I smell great deceit within deceit. I especially don't trust the aggressive, snarky, sneaky, hiding players putting on this two character licking each other show.

What I am seeing more and more now after years of observation is how aggressive the disinfo enemies have been over the years and how they planted 'set-ups' all over the internet long ago and have tried very hard to infiltrate every teeny and tiny corner of the truth movement they can find.

They haven't fooled everyone.

Waves,

You just lost your house. I’ll PM my address for payment.

You “smell deceit.” You smell “deceit within deceit” Well case closed and thank you. Where have you and your proboscis been all this time? You’re “sure this is a disinformation agenda” you think this or that, and accuse carelessly based on (admittedly) knowing nothing about the subject material. Like Mayacaman. He too admitted to knowing nothing and yet ate up pages filled with pointless vulgar insults.

Anyway, concerning your upset and objection to this thread and Avalon for tolerating it, all you’ve contributed so far is conjecture and delusion. Asking the reader to suspend critical thought in favor of sudden-onset involuntary trance-entrainment to your laserly-accurate intuition. You must know that such a suggestion seems like an invitation to mind control, a potentially urgent mental health condition which may require emergency intervention. So let’s avoid any risk of harm to the innocent. How about you contributing something concrete which relates to the subject of this thread? I think that’s the way to go. If this thread is all so wrong, choose one point (hoax) and counter it with credible information.

It does not matter to me that onowah had left. Their post exists, and I responded, because unbeknownst to you, this entire thread serves as a resource and archive for those interested in or recovering from hoaxters. Avalon obviously deems this to be a worthwhile endeavor, as they’ve created a separate category for this function within the forum. You can recognize it because the title contains the word “hoax”.

This thread is about unmasking a disinformation agent. Do you frequent YouTube? Do you know anything about Tavares? If yes and yes, have you noticed that while all other truth channels have been eliminated, selectively censored, or at the very least, demonetized, Tavares alone remains up and running, never censored, and heavily monetized? Real professional journalists whose presentations are emotionally balanced and thus mild (compared with Tavares’ radical fictionalized fear and hate mongering) are now gone, while her vile hate-screed channel remains fully sponsored, up and running? That no other truther uses her collection of “documents” to make a case? Does that say anything to you? To me is says Tavares is performing a service that’s valuable to the controllers. She’s disinformation, controlled opposition, or just happens to be demented enough to doing controllers work for them. After all, her work does have a destabilizing effect upon weak minded, vulnerable people. She triggers those who do not engage critical thought to rally for murder and sometimes even suicide. I think you know nothing about Tavares. She’s a blight upon the truth movement. Any controller can point to her as “proof” that truthers are “cons ira cy theorists” and not researchers. She’s clearly a person who acts like she’s emotionally disturbed. Whatever it is, google and YouTube clearly love her. Connect the dots.

If you had studied this thread, you would notice that the other Avalon members who have contributed did so long before I joined. You didn’t notice? If you had studied this thread, you would notice that Snoop and I have completely different writing styles, and therefore couldn’t be the same person. Do you think Snoop is capable of flipping a switch and never repeating any patterns in sentence structure, grammar or vocabulary? Could our writing styles be any more different? You’re astute, so the difference in our writing styles should be readily apparent to you. We’re not the same person. We don’t agree on everything, but we’re in solid agreement regarding Tavares, disdain for hoaxters, and truth.

If you had read this thread you would know that I found it by doing a web search. I am grateful to Snoop. If you’ve spent any time listening to Tavares, or reading the listener comments, or going to her website to download the “documents” she claims to be leaked originals, you will see that she’s a hoaxter. The documents are all self-created. It’s so obvious. I think even you would notice. Check out her “iron mountain” story. “Prepared secretly by the JFK administration, inherited by JBJ who instructed his staff to never let the American people see it, but by that time it was too late, so LBJ then published it as a political satire, made it available for sale to the public to cover the “fact” that it was “leaked”, paid off the NY Times to put it on their bestseller list to further cover the “leak”, then it was faux-pirate published by subsequent administrations in the government in order to set the stage for the government to sue itself publicly in court in order to even further cover the “leak”... That’s her story. Do you believe it? I don’t.

I object to those who spread hate, fear-monger, lie, prey upon weak-minded and vulnerable people, and trigger others to say what they themselves are too cowardly to say. Especially when it involves promoting murder and suicide. So instead of you ignorantly shooting from the hip based on knowing *nothing*, why don’t you study snoop’s work and take it on point by point? You probably would not approve of a government changing written history in order to promote a false narrative, am I correct? Would you approve of a “truther” fictionalizing a historical narrative to fit your agenda? That would be hypocritical. If truth matters to you, here you have a great opportunity. Prove Tavares correct. Or prove Snoop wrong. Prove me wrong. Spend some time. Become informed, believe me, knowing stuff is a cool thing. It’s awesome. It totally rocks, and I recommend that you try it.

Short of anything concrete, your allegations seem to me like meaningless taunts. But maybe I misunderstand, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

Thank you Waves, and I welcome your response,

xylo

[xylo]

Ok Waves,

No response from you yet, and it may be a reasonable allegation that for some, the results of Snoop’s research is TMI too much information, so I’ll help by kick-starting with another abbreviated Tavares quick debunking synopsis. This one, the “PG&E/CPUC/Solaren” hoax, it goes like this:

Tavares claims to be in possession of an entire email thread, in which PG&E and the CPUC are discussing a genocide-upon-humanity plan. The preamble to all of this is that Solaren in concert with PG&E had moved their experimental space weapons receptor site from the Mojave desert to the tiny hamlet of Sebastopol, CA where she lives, in order to target her personally because she was protesting the installation of smart meters (preamble is years old). That right there should be enough for most to have their red-flag raised, but the full detail she offers is hilarious, it’s great material and I can’t resist. So for your entertainment: Tavares alleges that she came into possession of 65,000 emails because a team of lawyers who were representing an activist group in suing PG&E demanded and received said emails from PG&E, all 65,000. But then the legal team realized they had gotten themselves into an effort that was way above their pay-grade, were suddenly stumped by this new evidence, left disoriented and bewildered, suddenly “didn’t know what to do with the emails”, so they forwarded them all to Deborah Tavares, humble hate-peddler with no legal training, because surely Deb would know what to do next. Still with me? Tavares alleges that in these emails, the CPUC advises PG&E to reverse-blame their customers for the space-weapons induced fires that were planned to destroy properties and population, because of “too much brush and debris left strewn about.” In these emails, she alleges that the CPUC refers to citizens as “earthlings” and laments, in email, that genocide is so much harder now, so much red tape, and they sure do miss ”the good old days.”

This hoax started a few years ago, and by now it’s become obvious that there is no Solaren space-weapons receptor site in tiny Sebastopol, and so just 6 weeks ago she changed the story, now saying “oh not THIS Sebastopol, CA, there is ANOTHER Sebastopol, CA, over near Nevada City.”

Here’s the link to the new story, from 07:00 to 09:30: https://youtu.be/pQsoAjSHVUQ

And so Waves, for yourself, try to find a 2nd Sebastopol, CA “over near Nevada City.” I can’t find it, nor can anyone else, even a few of her die-hard devotees who looked, couldn’t find it, and asked her for links or verification (no one ever gets a response from her), and thus subsequently lost faith and called foul. I know this because it’s in listener comments under this recent “YouTube” as she calls her video recordings. They’re “YouTubes”.

So to review, using only common sense, please tell us if you believe this:

* PG&E and Solaren moved an experimental space weapons receptor site from the Mojave Desert to a tiny, densely populated town in order to zap Deborah Tavares if she went out and about in that town.
* upper echelon executives at PG&E and CPUC casually plan the details of a genocide in emails
* CPUC and PG&E refer to citizens as “earthlings”
* an entire team of lawyers became disoriented and confused, suddenly no longer able to engage their legal training, and so they turned the case over to Deborah Tavares.

What do you think? I think it’s lies. But maybe I’m wrong, so you tell me what you make of all this.

Thanks,

xylo

[xylo]

Here’s another good one, Waves.

The NASA “War Document hoax”, just the setup. It’s too good.

Tavares claims that NASA mistakenly published employee Dennis Bushnell’s “Strategies..” PowerPoint presentation on their website, available for public download, and quickly realized their error and removed it. However, because Tavares employs a staff of sleuth fact finders who monitor the NASA website 24/7, gotcha NASA, her team saw their error right away, and were able to seize the moment, a rare opportunity that existed only for a brief window in time, and download the evil hideous document.

Do you believe that? I don’t, and Snoop has revealed the truth of where the PowerPoint presentation was posted, for public download. Snoop has detailed it all, from multiple sources should there be any doubt. It’s at the beginning of this thread, check it out. BTW Tavares has rewritten and retitled this PowerPoint presentation as “The NASA War Document.” See Snoop’s links to Tavares version, rewritten in bullet points with the NASA logo pasted at the top. So cheap.

For GP, here’s a short video exposé on this hoax, Snoop material presented by Virgo Triad:
https://youtu.be/zQZmq_vMcSQ

BTW, to assuage any presumption you might have that Snoop targets Tavares exclusively, and since you’ve followed the link to the VIRGO TRIAD channel on YouTube, notice that there is a series of presentations regarding Snoop’s debunking efforts, only one of which so far focuses on Tavares.

[xylo]

Nothing, Waves?

Pretty strong and insulting allegations from you. Did you expect no response, or encountering feeble-minded dummies?

Here’s some truth: a real truther does not fabricate documentation. Truth is strong enough. A real truther does not manipulate with hate and fear. It’s abusuve, and if they’ve got intel, unnecessary. A real truther who puts themselves on a public platform responds to questions with proof and links. Because they don’t preach without first having some information. Tavares is not anything close to being a real truther. She’s a self-promoting, control freak, elitist, cruel, demented anti-Semite and vanity activist. Check out her catalog of presentations and read her listener comments, it’s all glaringly obvious

But you tell me, here we are. Give us some truther wisdom.

[snoop4truth]

Posted by xylo (here)
Nothing, Waves?

Pretty strong and insulting allegations from you. Did you expect no response, or encountering feeble-minded dummies?

Here’s some truth: a real truther does not fabricate documentation. Truth is strong enough. A real truther does not manipulate with hate and fear. It’s abusuve, and if they’ve got intel, unnecessary. A real truther who puts themselves on a public platform responds to questions with proof and links. Because they don’t preach without first having some information. Tavares is not anything close to being a real truther. She’s a self-promoting, control freak, elitist, cruel, demented anti-Semite and vanity activist. Check out her catalog of presentations and read her listener comments, it’s all glaringly obvious

But you tell me, here we are. Give us some truther wisdom.

xylo, Gemma13, peterpam and other recovering victims,

This is today's Virgo Triad video on Deborah Tavares and the "SILENT WEAPONS FOR QUIET WARS HOAX".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqJJynF_3zU

Enjoy,

Snoop

[waves]

My only point for jumping in at all again a few posts back was to point out the gross lopsidedness on this thread by two posters who share such an ugly, vengeful vitriol tone that's a total out of place oddity for this forum:
(+/- a few)
297 posts - this thread
236 posts - only 2 names/'snoop' and 'xylo'

But if total writing inches were tallied, it sure seems about 95% snoop/xlyo, and 5% short drop-ins by a handful of others.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could care less about dissecting Tavares, I'm not obsessed with her or anyone and she never made my list of someone to keep track of. I left her behind years ago after the first disconcerting oddness I described early in this thread not unlike an odor, which is oddly the same odor surrounding 'snoop' and 'xylo'. Tavares is at least smarter than to use miles long glowering diatribes as her mode of expression..... and she gets all the points for being upfront with her identity.

I'm far more intrigued by the oddity of the sudden appearance of hyper vitriol towards a shared target by two obsessed, fiercely identity-guarded newcomers appearing out of the blue on two forums attacking a public figure with all their might whose platform happens to be the hottest and touchiest globalist/zionist social agendas. These two pseudo figures suddenly 'find each other' and start lubricating each other just as much as smearing their mutual target. They're so self absorbed that they fail to see that their conceited tone and pushy methods are far more reader repelling and author incriminating than convincing. Observing these oddities and tactical extremes are the only part of this thread that is of any curiosity to me..... barely.

I have ZERO interest in debating anything Tavares. I only got motivated to jump in this thread again after so many more smelly one-sided updates kept coming, to point out that not everyone is buying the monotonous petulance and to remind the forum of the oddball red flags on this thread -

.....some very cloaked character shows up out of nowhere with cutthroat and bloodthirsty posts that are exact copy/paste replicas 100's and 100's more 'he's' spewed all over the net since at least 2013 (including lots of duplicate 'this just in!' posts that were 'just in' many times before), and suddenly it's two united/obsessed people bullhorning into two otherwise mild-tempered conversational forums. Two 'names' on a mission arrived full of spiteful condemnation, totally disinterested in blending personally into the community first or being a part of it since.

As of now, the thread is 80% just those two talking to each other and thanking each other profusely. There has never been this much of an exact same spiteful, acrimonious tone from two people let alone such an extended a display of united vengeance and obsession here.

Considering my very long track record of astuteness and accuracy it's foolish to treat me like I say anything for shallow reasons. My observations that the bloated tactic choices and snarky acrimony on this thread really smells is well merited.

My only future visits will be to flush the commode when the smell gets unbearable again.

[TomKat]

Posted by waves (here)
My only point for jumping in at all again a few posts back was to point out the gross lopsidedness on this thread by two posters who share such an ugly, vengeful vitriol tone that's a total out of place oddity for this forum:
(+/- a few)
297 posts - this thread
236 posts - only 2 names/'snoop' and 'xylo'

But if total writing inches were tallied, it sure seems about 95% snoop/xlyo, and 5% short drop-ins by a handful of others.
.

I scanned the last several pages of this thread for which Mayacaman was banished. Mayacaman was much more reasoned and even-tempered than snoop and xylo. Snoop is probably a paid troll who is using blatant propaganda tactics that don't belong on Avalon, evidenced by such statements as "Hello xylo, peterpam, Gemma13 and other soldiers for truth" and his trying to set up a dichotomy of Truth vs everyone who doesn't agree with snoop. I have no idea why Bill Ryan tolerates his behavior. He is not here to discuss anything. He is here to defame, discredit and recruit followers, repeatedly ad naseum. His handle, snoop4truth, gave him away a long time ago.