It's NOT About The Nail (or, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus)

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Well I can certainly agree it sometimes feels this way, that is for sure. At the same time I imagine many women can also say the same thing about men and some of our issues (or just our general approach to things that differ from women). Its certainly a "human" phenomenon more than it is just a man or woman thing ... but us being only on one side admittedly have a bit of 'male' bias, of course.

Of course men have issues as well, but we get beat up for it all the time. That's why you don't even feel comfortable criticizing the results of radical feminism ...

I don't feel comfortable criticizing radical feminism here, because that isn't the topic of this thread ... Just because one knows something, thinks something, or has an opinion doesn't necessarily mean that it a useful part of any conversation.

Don't project on to me, nothing good can out of it. But let's rather please continue to discuss this objectively.

[AriG]

Thank you, thank you! Thank you Bill! We haven’t had a good laugh in a while!! And so true

[Innocent Warrior]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Well I can certainly agree it sometimes feels this way, that is for sure. At the same time I imagine many women can also say the same thing about men and some of our issues (or just our general approach to things that differ from women). Its certainly a "human" phenomenon more than it is just a man or woman thing ... but us being only on one side admittedly have a bit of 'male' bias, of course.

Of course men have issues as well, but we get beat up for it all the time. That's why you don't even feel comfortable criticizing the results of radical feminism ...

I don't feel comfortable criticizing radical feminism here, because that isn't the topic of this thread ... Just because one knows something, thinks something, or has an opinion doesn't necessarily mean that it a useful part of any conversation.

Don't project on to me, nothing good can out of it. But let's rather please continue to discuss this objectively.

Yes, thank you. This thread is about the differences between men and women.

* * *

There are very real differences between men and women and problems arise when this isn’t understood. The video in the OP is an example of a woman just wanting to be understood, while a man will typically go straight to the solution. The video in the OP isn’t quite accurate though because a woman, if she’s not a moron, will move on to a solution once she feels heard.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Rachel (here)
...
The video in the OP isn’t quite accurate though because a woman, if she’s not a moron, will move on to a solution once she feels heard.

That's exactly how I thought the video was going to end - with her finally letting him pull it out after she had a moment to just vent and be hear and understood. I agree, it would probably have been a little more accurate that way, in a general sense.

[onawah]

That guy had typical narcissistic and sociopath traits.
The women were not really examples of normal women, but women who he was able to hone in on and victimize because of their own pathology.
Narcissists and sociopaths reportedly have an instinct for tracking down their victims quite easily and skillfully.
But those patterns, thankfully, are not typical of ALL men and women.

Posted by Morbid (here)
i used to work with this jamaican dude years ago. he would be getting laid by different women almost daily. he's not sure how many kids he've got from whom. changed his mobile numbers quite frequently, so you get the idea.. his secret? as we did project together he would always have inear bluetooth speaker on, occasionally replying with "aha", "i hear you", "you're right", "ya man" etc. so spending several hours a day tolerating background noise would award him with a guaranteed session. part of me kind of admired him..

[Words of Joy]

Recognizable video. Me and my wife spent years struggling, to get into a balance that is acceptable for both. Headaches, frustrations, anger, pain, we both have seen quite a lot. Too much for my taste anyway. But I made a vow and intend to keep it, so we had to come up with a strategy, that would mellow out the fields of tension. Here's our strategy - and it may sound a bit odd: We bought two black boards with chalk. We wrote down two habits we would like the other to get rid off/lose and two traits we would like the other to add. We are evaluating them weekly and when the behavior is as we desire, we add a small stripe to it. If it failed somewhere a stripe is removed. When five stripes are reached, the item can be removed from the board, and a new item can be placed if desired.

We both have to give a little, but we get happiness, relational stability and traits we desire in our partner in return. And for us both that's worth a lot. I feel this changed our relationship in a good way. It's so clear, organized and effective. We're both happier more loving towards each other because of it.

[onawah]

That's a wonderful strategy, and I'm so glad it's working so well for you!

Posted by Slobbe (here)
Recognizable video. Me and my wife spent years struggling, to get into a balance that is acceptable for both. Headaches, frustrations, anger, pain, we both have seen quite a lot. Too much for my taste anyway. But I made a vow and intend to keep it, so we had to come up with a strategy, that would mellow out the fields of tension. Here's our strategy - and it may sound a bit odd: We bought two black boards with chalk. We wrote down two habits we would like the other to get rid off/lose and two traits we would like the other to add. We are evaluating them weekly and when the behavior is as we desire, we add a small stripe to it. If it failed somewhere a stripe is removed. When five stripes are reached, the item can be removed from the board, and a new item can be placed if desired.

We both have to give a little, but we get happiness, relational stability and traits we desire in our partner in return. And for us both that's worth a lot. I feel this changed our relationship in a good way. It's so clear, organized and effective. We're both happier more loving towards each other because of it.

[petra]

Posted by Flash (here)
the question would be to ask WHY MEN PREFER STUPID WOMEN?

Hah. Well I prefer SMART MEN... so what gives lol

Here's something that caught my eye in a book store once, I only needed a few minutes with the book to find out the answer: It's because Bitches are Confident. Confidence + stupidity sounds like a recipe for disaster to me tho!

[Flash]

Posted by Slobbe (here)
Recognizable video. Me and my wife spent years struggling, to get into a balance that is acceptable for both. Headaches, frustrations, anger, pain, we both have seen quite a lot. Too much for my taste anyway. But I made a vow and intend to keep it, so we had to come up with a strategy, that would mellow out the fields of tension. Here's our strategy - and it may sound a bit odd: We bought two black boards with chalk. We wrote down two habits we would like the other to get rid off/lose and two traits we would like the other to add. We are evaluating them weekly and when the behavior is as we desire, we add a small stripe to it. If it failed somewhere a stripe is removed. When five stripes are reached, the item can be removed from the board, and a new item can be placed if desired.

We both have to give a little, but we get happiness, relational stability and traits we desire in our partner in return. And for us both that's worth a lot. I feel this changed our relationship in a good way. It's so clear, organized and effective. We're both happier more loving towards each other because of it.

Let me, if you do not mind, dissect a bit what you are doing, since the recipe seems to work:

Intent (vision-commitment): both made a vow to make it work
Objectives: building a timely strategy to mellow the tensions about qualities (or lack of) which can be observed (quantifiable)
Actions: the black board with a system based on manageable in quantity traits (qualities or non qualities based) determined by the team members within a time frame.
Results: stripe removed or added showing the results in quality and quantity

You are entirely SMART in terms of objectives.

Wow, I would hire you to manage a whole team. Applying these (seen in business) to intimate relationships is almost never done, yet must be soooo efficient.

It also answers to the man's need: finding solutions that are observable, quantifiable
and to the woman's need: working of the soft issues (qualities or lack of) and being able to talk about it.

--------------------

Of course I had to check if you were a man or a woman, because this is very solutions and action oriented, and TATA, you are a man lollllllllllll

Make sure you let her express the subtleties of the qualities or lack of, it can take time since those are sometimes hard to process having to do with non linear non logical, in appearance, elements.

[Mike]

Posted by Slobbe (here)
Recognizable video. Me and my wife spent years struggling, to get into a balance that is acceptable for both. Headaches, frustrations, anger, pain, we both have seen quite a lot. Too much for my taste anyway. But I made a vow and intend to keep it, so we had to come up with a strategy, that would mellow out the fields of tension. Here's our strategy - and it may sound a bit odd: We bought two black boards with chalk. We wrote down two habits we would like the other to get rid off/lose and two traits we would like the other to add. We are evaluating them weekly and when the behavior is as we desire, we add a small stripe to it. If it failed somewhere a stripe is removed. When five stripes are reached, the item can be removed from the board, and a new item can be placed if desired.

We both have to give a little, but we get happiness, relational stability and traits we desire in our partner in return. And for us both that's worth a lot. I feel this changed our relationship in a good way. It's so clear, organized and effective. We're both happier more loving towards each other because of it.

Slobbe I think that's brilliant!

I imagine there are ways to make this fun too, instead of a pin point presentation sort of thing. I can see how this could be really effective.

I bet you guys laugh alot while you're doing this too. What a great way to dissolve tension. Was this your idea or did you read about it somewhere?

[Words of Joy]

Posted by Flash (here)

Let me, if you do not mind, dissect a bit what you are doing, since the recipe seems to work:
...
You are entirely SMART in terms of objectives.
...
Make sure you let her express the subtleties of the qualities or lack of, it can take time since those are sometimes hard to process having to do with non linear non logical, in appearance, elements.

I don't mind at all. It's an interesting perspective you offer. Thanks!

Maybe it helps I work in IT. Though honestly, it took me about 8 years of on-and-off frustration to get me to the point of stop arguing and come up with an action plan. We thought about counseling in earlier days, and my wife actually talked to a female psychologist, who told her that sometimes it's better to just go separate ways. Basically my wife directly lost faith in counseling because of that experience. We had no intent of leaving each other. After that we muddled on for years without a strategy. I learned, that sometimes talking/arguing about problems simply isn't enough. But it took time! Not sure how SMART that is.

My wife is from Peru. And language, though we both speak Dutch (and Spanish nowadays), still is a source of misinterpretation. Imperfections of knowing or misuse of a language, can cause unimaginable sidetracks. That's also something I learned the hard way. Thank God, my wife is talkative, and spews out all that doesn't sit right in her heart. Though sometimes it takes some time. If hearts are wired differently, then it can be a struggle to get to the middle. And then, listening sometimes can be difficult, if it doesn't align with your own heart. But you're right. It is really important to listen to what the other has to say. To give it room. To try and understand from the other's perspective. And to take it serious. Especially if the plan is to stay together for the rest of your lives.

[Words of Joy]

Posted by Mike (here)

I imagine there are ways to make this fun too, instead of a pin point presentation sort of thing. I can see how this could be really effective.

I bet you guys laugh alot while you're doing this too. What a great way to dissolve tension. Was this your idea or did you read about it somewhere?

:D The writing on the board for the first time made us both laugh very hard. It had a mischievous feel to it also. Sort of like having four wishes in your hand and pondering on what to do with them. All kinds of things came to mind. It cracked us up.

It was a combined idea. In that sense, that my wife had suggested a board for other purpose before. I was thinking it could also be used for this, for the visibility and relief aspects of it. The key really was to find the will to have my partner cut away parts of my that feel like myself and add what would make her extra happy (with the consequent reprogramming that would follow because of this). After I decided to let it flow for love and peace sake wherever it would take us, I came up with the details. They came pretty naturally, as I needed a formula that would allow for me to get rid of some traits that were pushing my buttons in the wrong way, as well as a possibility to add traits I found lacking or improvable. And I knew we had to put in an evaluation mechanism, as a reminder and a motivation.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by petra (here)

Posted by Flash (here)
the question would be to ask WHY MEN PREFER STUPID WOMEN?

Hah. Well I prefer SMART MEN... so what gives lol

Here's something that caught my eye in a book store once, I only needed a few minutes with the book to find out the answer: It's because Bitches are Confident. Confidence + stupidity sounds like a recipe for disaster to me tho!

Here ya go:

• http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Sher...lationship.pdf

[Agape]

Confident women??? On this Planet??? Do you mean someone like; Theresa May ?

There’s another movie about relationships and the otherworldliness to experience here, it’s funny, peoetic and not particularly biased towards either gender( in my opinion).

It’s called Alien Visitor ( or Epsilon) , Australian production.

Unlike the other “alien” movies this one is not well known or scary, it’s psychological, even spiritual at times and entertaining.

If you can find (free..) good copy on the web please give it a look. It is very much about “relationships”.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nqUzA7wCVX4

[5th]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Here ya go:

• http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Sher...lationship.pdf

Worth a skim through for sure as it's not what you probably think!


"The bitch is an empowered woman who derives tremendous strength from the
ability to be an independent thinker, particularly in a world that still
teaches women how to be self-abnegating. This woman doesn’t live
someone else’s standards, only her own."

Oh and Agape, there's plenty of genuinely confident women where I live. Definitely varies from culture to culture. Interestingly, Spanish women were once found to be the most flirtatious in Europe. Conversely when I lived in Malta I found women to be the least confident and I only got about one smile a year...

[Flash]

Posted by Agape (here)
Confident women??? On this Planet??? Do you mean someone like; Theresa May ?

There’s another movie about relationships and the otherworldliness to experience here, it’s funny, peoetic and not particularly biased towards either gender( in my opinion).

It’s called Alien Visitor ( or Epsilon) , Australian production.

Unlike the other “alien” movies this one is not well known or scary, it’s psychological, even spiritual at times and entertaining.

If you can find (free..) good copy on the web please give it a look. It is very much about “relationships”.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nqUzA7wCVX4

I remember seeing this movie, I liked it. An intelligent women ET caught on the planet.

But the small extract presented here ends up in a serious tone with:

"he had the beginning of a real problem on his hands,.. he wanted nothing more than to be rid of her"

Hilarious!! This precisely express my point, why do men like stupid women and are afraid of intelligent ones? This is not even good for keeping the specie alive!!

I remember talking with a man whose children were dilapidating the fortune made by his father. He was complaining about their lack of everything, ethic, intelligence, etc. And we were in a group of businessman listening.

I finally dared to say: "well, rich men like beautiful women, and stupid enough ones. Then, they make children with them. The second generation men like beautiful and stupid women. The intelligence gene has already been diluted once. So when it comes to the third generation, complete dilution takes effect, the whole crew can be quite ordinary or stupid.

The whole group of grown up rich men were mouth open, and I had no comments, zilt, nothing. Which is quite out of their habits.

So, tell me, what is so attractive in stupidity?

I have the same question for women wanting the tough looking or muscle only men. Shut up kind of and be nice. Why? laziness not wanting to change? laziness not wanting challenge? I cannot understand it really.

[AutumnW]

Flash,

The beautiful and stupid female stereotype is probably less common today in young women. In my day you could cast a glance over your classroom the first day back in school, after summer holidays and glean who would be dull.

If a little girl was a beautiful child, perfectly groomed, bows in their hair, you pretty much knew there wasn't going to be much inner life or spark there. But, this probably had more to do with how she was defined by her parents and others from the time she was a toddler.

From a young age, I considered beauty a curse--that these little girls would never be loved for who they really were. And as a result, their focus was pulled away from the world at large and focussed on their hair, their clothes etc..They weren't stupid, they were ignorant. So, not a genetic thing, I don't think.

A man's attraction to beauty serves a purpose. It may help to keep the species from degrading physically. There is a very basic reason really funny looking women don't get asked out as often. The funny looking might indicate some subtle genetic liabilities. And as most men are funnier looking than most women it's important they offset the tendency to assymetry.

[Flash]

I have taken this whole topic seriously for ages, but not anymore. Except when there is despise on either group or faulty pop psychology analysis serving this purpose.

And as most men are funnier looking than most women it's important they offset the tendency to assymetry.

Made me laugh a whole lot.

Believe me, most men still want women less intelligent than they are. It is less demanding on them. No need to be at par, no ego threathened, not too much change and inner understanding required.

At least true for men my age.

What I see in younger north american men is a tiny bit more liking of challenges and equal partnership.

What I see in the early twenties ones is in the extremes: equal partners without regard to differences due to sex (physical strenght for example or more danger in the street at night for women), or at the other hand the women beaters, sex slaves or porn like demands for example.

On the other side of it, women have become much more agressive, which was not the case in my generation. I do think that sometimes some women with their behavior seem to want to kind of castrate their partner (be dominating at all times).

So, sorry guys if you had women with a nail she would not want to see, or was unable to.. there are also many man with nails in the forehead they do not want to see before it is too late.

All I can say is that I know a bundle of women whom are nice, intelligent and loving from all ages.

The lesson: chosing right. And if we are at the end of the bell curve on either one of emotional intelligence, brain abilities to learn (IQ) or spiritual development, the choices become rather limited. Worst when at the end of the curve on all 3.

[Universoul]

So this thread seems to be going in its own direction.

I don't mean to divert that. I want to bring up something that might not have been talked about already (haven't read through every post).

Maybe the video isn't about men and women. Maybe it's about people who are so dense and self absorbed they can't see other ways of processing reality and problems.

That denseness can manifest in a man as him being like blind force seeking to dominate his surrounding/others. He may believe himself to be like a mighty comet barreling through the universe, yet he is a slave of that same material/insentient force at the same time. The "material matrix". That man won't find freedom until he learns to surrender and stop trying to control it all.

It can manifest in a woman when she wants to endlessly complain but is closed off to any help/improvement. The kind of woman who refuses to let any light in, or out. Maybe because she's addicted to the misery of her rut and like a broken record can't get unstuck. That woman won't find freedom until she learns to open up, to trust and let life happen again.

edit - roles can be reversed of course. It's more about masculine and feminine than men and women, whether we're self aware and expressing our archetypes in a conscious way or if they're using us to express in unconscious ways.

The polar opposite would be having an open mind toward different perspectives, working toward understanding that others may process reality in different ways. By doing so we help enrich ourselves/keep our own minds expansive and flexible, and create understanding with others. We help them feel validated. Ideally we meet those with whom it is reciprocal.

I think that the differences between the genders, and all differences, wouldn't be much of an issue if we all worked toward self awareness. Being able to see (and most importantly laugh at) ourselves. Being able to look at others with an open mind, learn to work with them. Learn to work with life, not force ourselves on it yet not deny ourselves.

Developing the consciousness takes self work, a lot of self effort and self integration. Perhaps some people are meant to work most of it out on a superficial level. So everything is a clash that happens on the outside. Like comets colliding and hopefully they learn from it. They gain more self reflection and consciousness. Some appreciation for self and the other.

We're all mixtures of the inner wakefulness and discipline to do the work "within", and needing to blindly collide through life to get our lessons. To varying degrees.

None of this is said to take away from the need to look at the differences between men/women and masculine/feminine in a self reflecting way. A way that looks at the virtues of both "sides" and how the differences complement. That is true for the Avalon forum yet not for the general population. There's a lot of attention on the differences these days in a way the media uses to create division. To play all sides and pit them against each other. That works to keep people walled off from self awareness and each other. I've noticed it a lot in the "real world" be it water coolers or social media. I don't know if it's just me or if it has gotten worse.

Ideally we don't fall to the extreme of self absorption, that we can't see beyond a narrow perspective or a nail.

[AutumnW]

Posted by Flash (here)
I have taken this whole topic seriously for ages, but not anymore. Except when there is despise on either group or faulty pop psychology analysis serving this purpose.

And as most men are funnier looking than most women it's important they offset the tendency to assymetry.

Made me laugh a whole lot.

Believe me, most men still want women less intelligent than they are. It is less demanding on them. No need to be at par, no ego threathened, not too much change and inner understanding required.

At least true for men my age.

What I see in younger north american men is a tiny bit more liking of challenges and equal partnership.

What I see in the early twenties ones is in the extremes: equal partners without regard to differences due to sex (physical strenght for example or more danger in the street at night for women), or at the other hand the women beaters, sex slaves or porn like demands for example.

On the other side of it, women have become much more agressive, which was not the case in my generation. I do think that sometimes some women with their behavior seem to want to kind of castrate their partner (be dominating at all times).

So, sorry guys if you had women with a nail she would not want to see, or was unable to.. there are also many man with nails in the forehead they do not want to see before it is too late.

All I can say is that I know a bundle of women whom are nice, intelligent and loving from all ages.

The lesson: chosing right. And if we are at the end of the bell curve on either one of emotional intelligence, brain abilities to learn (IQ) or spiritual development, the choices become rather limited. Worst when at the end of the curve on all 3.

Good point about the extremes. Beta male porn addicts and beaters.