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    Canada Avalon Member Bruno's Avatar
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    Default This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    https://www.vox.com/world/2019/1/14/...sm-deeyah-khan

    I enjoyed this article/ interview and thought others might too. I had a few uh-huh moments and of course a lot of questions. The trailer for her documentary is at the end of the post.

    Deeyah Khan the filmmaker reminds us that both white supremacists and Jihadists tend to be young men who feel victimized, who felt invisible before finding their tribe of other angry young men.


    Deeyah Khan

    Much of it doesn’t come from hate. It comes from a lot of other basic human needs that are not being met. To be sure, there are political and social and economic factors involved on both sides, but if you dig deep, you find that it’s about much more than that.

    I tried to understand the core psychological draw of these movements. I found that a sense of belonging or purpose was a major factor. These people join these groups and suddenly they have a sense of meaning in life, a belief that they matter, that their voice matters. It’s as though they were once invisible and now they’re seen.

    Most of these men get so much attention once they do something horrible, or once they say something horrible. Before that, they’re invisible. And I think there is something really powerful in that, and perhaps that says more about us as a society than it does about them. But it ought to give us pause when we shower extremist groups with constant media attention.




    I read this article and interview just after having read about there being another Saudi Arabian woman using twitter to plea for international help.


    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...100510499.html


    While it was a "news" article it was also an opinion piece with the journalist arguing that Saudi Arabia's patriarchal structure is needed to hold up its political structure:

    "Saudi women fleeing their families challenge a system that grants men guardianship over women's lives. This guardianship system starts in the home, where women must obey fathers, husbands, brothers and sometimes sons.

    Hala Aldosari, a Saudi scholar and activist, said the male guardianship system replicates the ruling family's model of governance, which demands full obedience to the king, who holds absolute power in decision-making.

    "This is why the state is keen to maintain the authority of male citizens over women to ensure their allegiance," she said, adding that this "hierarchical system of domination" necessitates "keeping women in line".



    After reading these two pieces in quick secession I had a few thoughts.

    1) Are we truly inherently tribalistic and prone to violence? or where these so called "instincts" taught or at the least nurtured into us by a ruling class (or even Ancient Alien gods for that matter) that need to keep us either in a rigid structure with regards to class/race/gender or in conflict through some type of war whether that's literal or psychological?

    2) For some time now we have a geo-political narrative of West against East in the news cycle, Christian/Jew vs Muslim, Crusader/Zionist vs. Jihadist etc. but we have long since turned a blind eye to the human rights abuses of our Middle Eastern Allies like Saudia Arabia arguably not only because we, The West, want their oil but because keeping their patriarchal dictatorship in place keeps the ruling class (insert whoever you think is top of the food-chain here) more able to manipulate the region. Assuming this is true what will the consequences of weakening such a power structure be?


    Feel free to respond to these questions or anything that the articles or video bring up for you.



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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    I must say....I read the opening post and thanked for it....then I watched the trailer and removed my thanks!

    And although I felt I must state the above....I also see no good coming from this film nor my interaction within this thread.
    Normal..!

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    "In two documentary films, White Right: Meeting the Enemy and Jihad: A Story of the Others (both of which are currently streaming on Netflix), Khan sits down with white supremacists and jihadists (respectively) and tries to understand what’s really motivating them..."

    I feel completely differently than the instant dismissal and door slamming on this entire work after a few minutes of time by member Lake above. I don't see anything wrong with shining an honest spotlight on extreme ideology to try to understand this very real and relentlessly pervasive aspect of human nature.

    The trailer is reality as it exists, not a promotion of the behavior. Of course children are not born hating. It is at it's core a learned and they think, a survival adaptive behavior.

    It's a spell, a programming, a pit they've fallen into and I think it's really admirable that Ms. Khan is taking a very needed, grounded new approach to addressing this human weakness.

    "Part of the reason people subscribe to these movements is that they feel shunned in their lives, in their personal lives or in wider society. These movements are deeply rooted in a sense of victimhood, real or imagined. So if we exclude them, if we shout at them, if we condemn them, that completely feeds into that. And then the monster gets bigger, not smaller...."
    -Deeyah Khan

    Fascinating find, Bruno. Looking forward to the opportunity to watch the two films.
    Last edited by waves; 18th January 2019 at 18:45.

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    Quote Posted by waves (here)
    I feel completely differently than the instant dismissal and door slamming on this entire work after a few minutes of time by member Lake above.
    Really wave?

    Consider the link between the below quote from Hansard and the propaganda/intended planned path which is proffered via the above trailer?

    Quote Posted by Churchill 3 March 1919....That is 1919
    We are holding all ​ our means of coercion in full operation, or in immediate readiness for use. We are enforcing the blockade with rigour....
    Germany is very near starvation. The evidence I have received from officers sent by the War Office all over Germany shows, first of all, the great privations which the German people are suffering, and, secondly, the danger of a collapse of the entire structure of German social and national life under the pressure of hunger and malnutrition. Now is, therefore, the moment to settle. To delay indefinitely would be to run a grave risk of having nobody with whom to settle. Without this power we have no means whatever of influencing or guiding the course of events in Europe except by starving everybody into Bolshevism
    I even yesterday assisted a Muslim neighbour who had locked himself out of his own home. For 2 hours I helped him, gently, break into his home! I have many friends who are Hindu, who invite me to their festival days and even their children's birthdays, not to mention their trust of me with their 'females'!

    If you cannot see the 'promotion' of agenda within that 'trailer' then sorry....but you are so very far away from me that I cannot even start to consider it!

    Door slamming....really? Are you just viewing a pathetically tiny bubble of preprogramming....or could you actually consider a greater image?

    I will not post within this thread again....For your own sake, Look at the larger agenda!
    Normal..!

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    Canada Avalon Member Bruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    I am sorry if I am ignorant to a larger agenda Lake... did you read the interview? or just watch the video? I realize the trailer for her film focuses on white supremacists but my understanding from the interview is that she looked at both eastern and western extremes. I am not trying to be an antagonist I just don't understand what you are saying. - Like why did you bring up helping a Muslim neighbour? what am I missing?

    I am just genuinely curious about what I feel are extreme views that come out of the far right and why people subscribe to them.

    I realize that within the interview itself she makes clear that giving such extremists attention is exactly what they want so it is a double edged sword.

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    The “larger agenda” gets really too complicated to enumerate, in case of humankind on this planet. We are not talking of homogenous groups of equals born with the same or similar rights and opportunities.
    We are talking of very diverse types of social groups whose evolution stage spreads over millennia, perhaps millions of years in some cases like a giant snake of Time.

    We are still discovering each other-in terms of both biology, psychology and cultures - rather than knowing each other though the ignorant ones prefer to claim to “know about everyone and everything”.

    The truth is - it does not work. No cookery book can surpass thousands of years of isolated, specific developments of specific cultural patterns. You can’t understand Islam or Hindu culture unless you were born to it or lived in it as happy adult.
    You can’t understand Germany and the heights and lows of its culture and all its intricacies unless you were born to it or reborn to it as functioning, happy adult.

    The “happiness” factor is important balancing, nourishing cultural momentum. Every current human culture has its heights and downfalls. Every each of them.
    But every each of them love their children and try to give them the best they can and the love is the same, completely the same.
    That love keeps people in their or other cultures( in case of intermarriage for example) no matter what since all the rest always includes pluses and minuses, specific cultural heights and cultural pits.

    The differences are vast though and quite impossible to cross without breaking or suppressing people’s hearts.
    It’s true we can all be good friends and neigbours and it should stay that way.

    If all migration was positively oriented - such as “wish to contribute” to others social groups even then there’d be challenges but it would be a breezer.

    If 80% of migration is negatively motivated from start (such as “I need to run away from this country or place because there’s war and I’m being abused”) people end up in society they actually honestly did not want to be part of , and in order to be there they have to change, suppress and alienate from their natural evolution curve and adopt “screen patterns”.
    So do the people hosting them. The dissonance is much deeper than just putting on new type of cloth and trying to live “another life”.

    I don’t know how can that be true for those millions of Muslims trying to be German or English as it would be for Germans applying for citizenship in Saudi Arabia.

    Then there’s whole another phenomenon to this kind of mass migration , I’d call cultural subjugation . To cut it short , it’s people from noble families and with doctorates doing manual slave labour.
    The pressure on higher education and advanced economy is high in every society so if you’re refugee who lost almost everything the hope you’ll work yourself up in your lifetime is low or it will be - against the odds- and the rest of your brethren so to say.


    Where did all start from ? Deeply rooted in history of various fascist regimes and powerful nations supporting them and wars. Giving them free weapons instead of true humanitarian help when it was most needed.
    Every war breaks out of crisis , every of them. Of hunger , starvation and utter lack of resources. You can’t blame every sort of vacuity on humans and they should assist each other when it’s crucial.

    See what is happening in Yemen, in past 10 or 20 years and all we read in news is that the UN and other humanitarian aid comes late.
    It comes by drops and is vastly insufficient.
    Think about it, the same nations who invest trillions to their weapon systems count the price of their granola bars as if they were gold and telling us medicines are too costly?
    So instead of helping , they wait till war breaks out and then they send bombers and gas people as they did in Syria ?

    It’s what all the rich and powerful people FAIL TO SEE. If they fed people when they are hungry people would thank them, bow to them and could stay home and build their countries.

    Instead they discuss in their super councils for years, what to do about it politically and whose side is right.

    Human economy should be based in food and aid, certainly not in starvation, conquer and divide strategies and weapons.

    Then people would be allowed to live and help themselves wherever they are.

    It never ever happens that way so far, and from my personal experience either.


    The results are as extreme as it can get.


    Well, apologies to the few Middle-Easterns who actually wanted to be Germans, actually.
    And to the Germans who actually really wanted to be ..err ..Egyptians ..but guess that was long time ago ..


    No need to watch the documentary either for me , I’ve seen it even in real life and it’s not good for sensitive people and children.

    It’s out right bad if you ask and the rest assured , neo-nazis and jihadists are one and the same.

    Salam

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    Bruno, it's hard not to notice the irony that your OP was about someone trying to take a fresh approach to the behavior of people who have...

    1. A shallow, surface awareness of a complex, detailed topic
    that triggers an
    2. reactive projection onto and twisting of what the topic/work is about to serve their own thinking
    plus
    3. a compulsion to instantly show violent contempt with those assumptions/projections as the justification
    plus
    4. wanting their spiteful door slamming to be seen as admirable and showing them as smarter
    who then
    5. get even more enraged when credit is not given for their violent effort

    ...and that's exactly how the first responder to your thread behaved!


    Hating the haters who hate the haters that hate them seems to be the never ending circular nature of one of the touchiest of touchy problems throughout eons of human history.

    The interview you cited with Deeyah shows her to be a very intelligent, open minded and courageous individual trying to contribute a helpful spotlight on a very volatile, closed off subject with the most hard headed, fixated, closed off people.

    I love this statement of hers:

    "So I wanted to do something I’ve never done before, which is try to see if I could sit down with people who hold views like that and see if it is possible for us to move somewhere from that point, from sitting face to face. Because it’s really, really easy for everybody involved to hate each other from afar, to judge each other from afar, but it’s much more difficult to hate up close and personal."

    Not being a netflix subscriber, if anyone can point to another source for these documentaries, I'd really appreciate it.
    Last edited by waves; 18th January 2019 at 22:22.

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    Quote Posted by Bruno (here)

    After reading these two pieces in quick secession I had a few thoughts.

    1) Are we truly inherently tribalistic and prone to violence? or where these so called "instincts" taught or at the least nurtured into us by a ruling class (or even Ancient Alien gods for that matter) that need to keep us either in a rigid structure with regards to class/race/gender or in conflict through some type of war whether that's literal or psychological?


    Valid queries . . . I have the same.

    WHY??? JUST WHY???

    WHY DO WE CONTINUE . . . NO . . . HOW THE F*@K DID WE EVER ARRIVE AT A GLOBAL/UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS THAT NOT ONLY SANCTIONS, BUT THRIVES ON SELF SATISFYING SURVIVAL MODE AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYTHING ELSE – WITHOUT CARE NOR REASON???

    WHY IS THIS WORLD NOT – WITHOUT EXCEPTION - LIVING ACCORDING TO PRINCIPLES OF HEART BASED INTELLIGENCE???

    SURVIVAL VS LIVING = 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EQUATIONS

    SOMETHING IS SO VERY, VERY WRONG!!!!

    WHAT ARE WE MISSING???
    Last edited by Gemma13; 19th January 2019 at 15:28.

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    The most important thing we may ever accomplish in this life is to overcome our indifference to those we have been conditioned to think are inconsequential, repulsive or vile. Humans of all classes ethnicities have a strong history of demonizing and scapegoating those who need to be heard the most.

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    Default Re: This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.

    Quote Posted by Gemma13 (here)
    Quote Posted by Bruno (here)

    After reading these two pieces in quick secession I had a few thoughts.

    1) Are we truly inherently tribalistic and prone to violence? or where these so called "instincts" taught or at the least nurtured into us by a ruling class (or even Ancient Alien gods for that matter) that need to keep us either in a rigid structure with regards to class/race/gender or in conflict through some type of war whether that's literal or psychological?


    Valid queries . . . I have the same.

    WHY??? JUST WHY???

    WHY DO WE CONTINUE . . . NO . . . HOW THE F*@K DID WE EVER ARRIVE AT A GLOBAL/UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS THAT NOT ONLY SANCTIONS, BUT THRIVES ON SELF SATISFYING SURVIVAL MODE AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYTHING ELSE – WITHOUT CARE NOR REASON???

    WHY IS THIS WORLD NOT – WITHOUT EXCEPTION - LIVING ACCORDING TO PRINCIPLES OF HEART BASED INTELLIGENCE???

    SURVIVAL VS LIVING = 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EQUATIONS

    SOMETHING IS SO VERY, VERY WRONG!!!!

    WHAT ARE WE MISSING???
    Historically, if you weren't a badass to those considered "other," you were probably at risk yourself. Life was brutal, resources scarce. We seem to slowly be coming out of it now, to some degree, but it is a bumpy ride

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