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Thread: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    $15 min wage is insane.. what inflation rate will that cause; double digits surely..
    Target I do not think you understand inflation.

    For your own edification I suggest you read Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Fed of Chicago(I know you are probably skeptical). http://www.rayservers.com/images/Mod...yMechanics.pdf

    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    Increasing money supply without corresponding increase in economic outpout(in a fiat system) is what causes inflation.

    And finally, if you actually cared about inflation caused by wages if that was actually a cause for inflation, why do you not care about CEO wages?

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    $15 min wage is insane.. what inflation rate will that cause; double digits surely..
    Target I do not think you understand inflation.

    For your own edification I suggest you read Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Fed of Chicago(I know you are probably skeptical). http://www.rayservers.com/images/Mod...yMechanics.pdf

    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    Increasing money supply without corresponding increase in economic outpout(in a fiat system) is what causes inflation.

    And finally, if you actually cared about inflation caused by wages if that was actually a cause for inflation, why do you not care about CEO wages?
    I see fuel prices affecting inflation more than anything, and definitely far more than a minimum wage increase. The real Irony is that where I live, Most people want to see $150 per barrel oil, which raises the prices of all goods and services by a fair margin (everything has to be transported long distances these days) which skyrockets the cost of living to the point where minimum becomes wage is a sick joke and more people are relying on social assistance.

    Then the "boom" crashes to a halt, the conservatives get voted out for creating the scenario, a left wing party gets in power, has to throw more money into social programs due to the situation, they also have to raise minimum wage, to compensate and bring the level back on par with cost of living.

    Meanwhile, voters start to get angry and point fingers saying "See! Look what the Left wingers cost us! Vote them out!!" Then they get voted out, and the right wingers get voted back in and the cycle starts over. (actual scenario in my province of Alberta)

    The sheer acts of bouncing from a polarized right policy to a polarized left policy is what creates inflation, if one looks at the bigger picture; people don't tend to ever look past their political alignments, which is sad. Welcome to the political machine and their armies of fanboys, a system that was designed to suck hard earned money out of the masses.

    To fix the system, the polarization of political alignments needs to be dissolved, but politicians will never allow that because its how the create their "armies" whose sole purpose it is to "vote" and to demonize the opposition at any cost. It is the mechanism that allows the politicians to reap personal benefit from.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 23rd January 2019 at 16:29.
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    They either raise prices of the goods and services to directly reflect the additional labor cost, or the owners take less in profits (if still profitable with goods and services at the same prices and absorbing the additional labor cost.) This is an example of capitalism, not socialism. Why did you even mention socialism? Artificial scarcity is one of the ugly pillars upon which capitalism stands, again, why tag socialism?
    Minimum wages are absolutely in opposition to free market capitalism. What New York is doing is not free market capitalism. You should know better, Dennis, when the governor of New York is simultaneously calling for private property confiscation. Next you'll blame that on capitalism too, won't you?

    I will make an honest effort to explain this to you, and I hope you will honestly try to understand it.



    This is a supply and demand curve. Let's use doughnuts as an example.

    Doughnut companies would love if consumers paid $100 for every box of doughnuts. But if they set their prices that high, virtually no one will buy doughnuts, and they will make very little money despite setting a high price.

    Consumers would love FREE DOUGHNUTS. But if manufacturers don't get paid for making doughnuts, they're not going to make doughnuts, and so despite the "give me free stuff" attitude of consumers, they will get no doughnuts.

    Clearly, there has to be price somewhere in between, that consumers are willing to pay, and manufacturers are willing to work for. The point at which the maximum amount of doughnuts are sold/purchase, and the maximum amount of business is conducted, is the equilibrium point of the supply and demand curve. This is represented by the point where the two lines intersect in the graph above.

    Labor is similar to doughnuts. Employers are paying for labor, so labor has a cost associated with it. Laborers aren't going to work for free, but neither are employers going to run themselves bankrupt trying to make burger-flippers into millionaires. So again, we have supply and demand at play even in the labor market.

    When the government intervenes in the free market system, it is a form of socialism, and setting a minimum wage prevents the free market from naturally settling on an equilibrium point between what employers are willing to pay, and what laborers are willing to work for. The equilibrium is destroyed, no one can even know what labor should even be worth anymore because the free market has been disrupted by an artificial price floor imposed by the government, and New York's sorry economic situation is the kind of result you can expect from that, where you have to pay outrageous rent just to live in a broom closet, or can't afford to put gas in your car. Paris and London, or many other parts of Europe, are also great examples of this.


    Have you ever noticed that when socialist states like Venezuela finally bottom out and fully collapse, their supermarkets are totally bare and aren't restocked? And yet you think CAPITALISM causes artificial scarcity???

    For socialists to claim that capitalism impoverishes people in this way is a complete inversion of reality that I can only attribute to brainwashing. Countries with free markets and a healthy middle class don't suffer from a scarcity of goods and services. It's socialist countries that suffer from shortages of goods and services, because they have totally wrecked their markets by trying to artificially manipulate them with the stroke of a pen, and jamming up the natural way that free markets operate.


    Quote You have to have seen the charts showing worker wages (nearly a flat line) over the last few decades, compared to profits and executive salaries (a line going more than 45° up and to the right.) Do you not see a problem here?
    Gutting the middle class, again, is what socialism does, for the reasons I just explained above. If you look at socialist countries, they have the exact same problem, except even worse!! The US has resisted these insane policies longer than most of the rest of the world, and that's why we haven't bottomed out as badly as they have yet. And God willing, we will reverse these policies and go back to levels of middle class prosperity like we saw in the 1950s, when communism wasn't glamorized.


    Quote The cost of goods and services HAS gone up to the worker-consumer, way up, but worker wages have been stagnant for decades, and the executive pay and bonuses have skyrocketed and profits have skyrocketed.
    Dennis, look at what I posted in the OP. Restaurants are having to raise prices because of a socialist policy. The exact opposite of who you are in here trying to blame right now! Do you honestly not see how crazy that is? It is pure ideology.

    Quote Even if you were a sociopathic capitalist, you wouldn't want the worker class so broke that they cannot buy goods and services, right?
    You mean like the people in Venezuela? That's sociopathic capitalism too, right? Explain that one to me.

    Quote A REAL livable working wage would probably be around $30/hr at today's cost of goods and services
    Why not make it $1 million per hour as a minimum wage. That would solve all of our problems, wouldn't it?

    Quote Don't cry for capitalism. They won. The capitalists already won. It's very very near the end of the game of Monopoly
    Marxists have been saying that for about 200 years now, and the only thing that has failed is a large number of Marxist economies. You have a very bad track record with this, you know.

    I get it that a lot of people are filled with hatred towards the rich, and people who are better off in general. It seems the people who are filled with the most hatred towards the wealthy are upper middle class liberals, or even millionaires themselves. It's funny how that works. I personally don't care how much money someone else has as long as I have the same opportunity to open a business and achieve the same things fair and square. Most millionaires in America today are first generation, meaning they didn't inherit their wealth, they earned it. But they get hated on by Marxists who are still stuck in the class warfare mentality. If that's how you want to be, fine. I get it. But it's unhealthy, and it will ultimately destroy an economy if this class hatred gains political power.
    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 23rd January 2019 at 20:39.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Indigris (here)
    Increasing the minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour would only be bad because those at the top would not be willing to garnish their high salaries or, God forbid, cut profits for shareholders.
    Small businesses like the restaurants being impacted here don't have shareholders. You spent your whole post complaining about your personal situation and how you can't deal with stress without gaining 40 pounds, but you didn't spend any time at all considering the plight of a small business owner who is not only responsible for supporting his own family, but everyone employed by his business as well.

    The wealthiest people in this country are the ones who are pushing these socialist policies. The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, George Soros... all of these people throw their financial support behind socialism. Does it give you comfort that these are the people on your side?


    Quote Posted by ripple (here)
    Voice , one of the great things about those that follow the road to Caracas, and one that you must make sure to mention , is the unfailing talent of most of their members as self proclaimed Socialists to see their own system's faults ; and then , --- abracadabra ------- lay them at the feet of the job creators .That is , the ones of capital importance.
    Yes, the people who employ us and give us paychecks are the evil ones, just like Karl Marx told us.

    I know, I see this class warfare mentality all the time. Like I just said above, it is pure ideology. Most of the people spouting these talking points have never studied economics for even 5 minutes, and as usual in modern politics, it boils down to muh feelings.


    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    The minimum wage should be higher than 15.00 per hour. Much higher. If you are a job creator and can't afford to pay your staff a liveable wage then you don't have a viable business.
    That's why there are virtually no viable businesses in Venezuela right now, too.

    No matter how strongly you hate people with more money than you, demanding a million dollars an hour is not going to actually improve anyone's situation. If you ever had to run your own business you might better understand the situation.


    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by ripple (here)
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Quote More of the same, and New York takes one step closer to Venezuela status. ...
    ... those that follow the road to Caracas...
    The road to Caracas... has a hell of a lot of CIA footprints. Are you unaware of the siege that Venezuela is under - siege by DEEP STATE and GLOBALISTS?
    So why is it so hard to put 2 and 2 together and realize that the CIA and globalists are the ones pushing socialism, Dennis?


    Last edited by A Voice from the Mountains; 23rd January 2019 at 20:40.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    There's more than one cause of inflation, "economics" rarely has a single causation to its phenomenon's.

    Quote From the perspectives of firms, an increase in the minimum wage would increase their costs of production. Also, not only will firms have to increase the wage of workers on the minimum wage, but if they seek to maintain wage differentials – they may need to increase wages of more qualified workers – earning just above the minimum wage.

    In this case, a minimum wage could lead to firms passing wage rises onto the consumers in the form of higher prices. This will cause SRAS to shift to the left and higher inflation. Also, if higher minimum wages leads to an increase in consumer spending, it could cause a degree of demand-pull inflation as well.

    In theory, a higher minimum wage could cause inflation for two reasons:

    Higher spending by workers (demand pull inflation)
    Higher costs for firms, leading to wage-push inflation.
    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...-wage-on-adas/


    if this wasn't a HUGE increase, I won't be so worried

    900,000 people in New York City will be earning the $15 an hour wage when it's fully implemented....

    a 50% hike in the minimum wage of NYC ( over 2ish years it went up 5$) with an estimated 900,000 recipients (which is about 1/10th the population of NYC, and probably near 1/5th the work force).

    I think this will not follow traditional models and wage driven price inflation is very likely.
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    There's more than one cause of inflation, "economics" rarely has a single causation to its phenomenon's.

    Quote From the perspectives of firms, an increase in the minimum wage would increase their costs of production. Also, not only will firms have to increase the wage of workers on the minimum wage, but if they seek to maintain wage differentials – they may need to increase wages of more qualified workers – earning just above the minimum wage.

    In this case, a minimum wage could lead to firms passing wage rises onto the consumers in the form of higher prices. This will cause SRAS to shift to the left and higher inflation. Also, if higher minimum wages leads to an increase in consumer spending, it could cause a degree of demand-pull inflation as well.

    In theory, a higher minimum wage could cause inflation for two reasons:

    Higher spending by workers (demand pull inflation)
    Higher costs for firms, leading to wage-push inflation.
    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...-wage-on-adas/


    if this wasn't a HUGE increase, I won't be so worried

    900,000 people in New York City will be earning the $15 an hour wage when it's fully implemented....

    a 50% hike in the minimum wage of NYC ( over 2ish years it went up 5$) with an estimated 900,000 recipients (which is about 1/10th the population of NYC, and probably near 1/5th the work force).

    I think this will not follow traditional models and wage driven price inflation is very likely.
    From that last link to WIKI
    "Economists generally believe that the high rates of inflation and hyperinflation are caused by an excessive growth of the money supply.[9]" i.e. quantitative easing known as QE. Tell me Target. How much QE did the FED do in 2008-2009?

    There you will find what causes inflation.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    How much QE did the FED do in 2008-2009?

    There you will find what causes inflation.
    that theory presupposes a known and controlled money supply, fractional reserve lending leads to a HUGE amount of "shadow money" that is almost impossible to track.

    either way, I was speaking of a localized phenomenon (this 15$ an hour is only in NYC). and the QE from the fed is sorta apples to oranges... not just one crazy democratic city making questionable policy decisions.
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    $15 min wage is insane.. what inflation rate will that cause; double digits surely..
    Target I do not think you understand inflation.

    For your own edification I suggest you read Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Fed of Chicago(I know you are probably skeptical). http://www.rayservers.com/images/Mod...yMechanics.pdf

    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    Increasing money supply without corresponding increase in economic outpout(in a fiat system) is what causes inflation.

    And finally, if you actually cared about inflation caused by wages if that was actually a cause for inflation, why do you not care about CEO wages?
    "Increases wages does not cause inflation."

    True, if and only if: 1) the money to pay the increase in wages comes from the existing money supply. To the extent that money is created (in the form of lending/borrowing) to pay the increase in wages, and we can debate the likelihood of that (but some employers will borrow hoping for the best), that is inflationary in the sense of an increase in the money supply which in turn drives prices up for goods and services; OR 2) even if there is no increase in the supply of money, there can be pure price inflation in certain sectors of the economy when "consumers" start buying goods and services due to the fattening in their wallets caused by pay increases. Merchants will raise prices when the demand for their goods and services increases, for whatever reason, if their is no corresponding increase in the supply, or there is an increase in the price or the cost, of the materials and such needed to provide the sought after goods and services for which their is a higher demand.

    Labor is a cost of doing business, and economically speaking that cost is no different than the cost of materials, supplies, utilities, etc... All of which are also labor dependent.

    An increase in the cost of any item of production of goods and services will increase the cost or price of the goods or services to the ultimate purchaser. And that has nothing to do with whether someone should be in business or not.

    Further, income equality is a separate issue from monetary or price inflation.

    It's all a spiraling circle, up or down or staying flat. Everything is connected and ripples are felt everywhere--whether intended or not. Whether good or bad. Much depends on where you happen to be in the social-economic strata at any given time. Some ripples raise the tide for all and lift all boats, other ripples raise the tide and lift the boats only for some, and sink boats for others.

    Much also depends on many factors, such as who you are, who you know, good luck, bad luck, no luck at all, chance, intelligence, the actions of others, and the application of what you know to what you do with what you know.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    $15 min wage is insane.. what inflation rate will that cause; double digits surely..
    Target I do not think you understand inflation.

    For your own edification I suggest you read Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Fed of Chicago(I know you are probably skeptical). http://www.rayservers.com/images/Mod...yMechanics.pdf

    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    Increasing money supply without corresponding increase in economic outpout(in a fiat system) is what causes inflation.

    And finally, if you actually cared about inflation caused by wages if that was actually a cause for inflation, why do you not care about CEO wages?
    "Increases wages does not cause inflation."

    True, if and only if: 1) the money to pay the increase in wages comes from the existing money supply. To the extent that money is created (in the form of lending/borrowing) to pay the increase in wages, and we can debate the likelihood of that (but some employers will borrow hoping for the best), that is inflationary in the sense of an increase in the money supply which in turn drives prices up for goods and services; OR 2) even if there is no increase in the supply of money, there can be pure price inflation in certain sectors of the economy when "consumers" start buying goods and services due to the fattening in their wallets caused by pay increases. Merchants will raise prices when the demand for their goods and services increases, for whatever reason, if their is no corresponding increase in the supply, or there is an increase in the price or the cost, of the materials and such needed to provide the sought after goods and services for which their is a higher demand.

    Labor is a cost of doing business, and economically speaking that cost is no different than the cost of materials, supplies, utilities, etc... All of which are also labor dependent.

    An increase in the cost of any item of production of goods and services will increase the cost or price of the goods or services to the ultimate purchaser. And that has nothing to do with whether someone should be in business or not.

    Further, income equality is a separate issue from monetary or price inflation.

    It's all a spiraling circle, up or down or staying flat. Everything is connected and ripples are felt everywhere--whether intended or not. Whether good or bad. Much depends on where you happen to be in the social-economic strata at any given time. Some ripples raise the tide for all and lift all boats, other ripples raise the tide and lift the boats only for some, and sink boats for others.

    Much also depends on many factors, such as who you are, who you know, good luck, bad luck, no luck at all, chance, intelligence, the actions of others, and the application of what you know to what you do with what you know.
    You are confusing the correspondent raise in price with the aim of keeping better than past profit margin, as is the will of all corporate beings.

    Rule of Acquisition #95: Expand or die.

    That is not inflation, that is corporate greed trying to maintain its marketshare and profits.

    The reason they need to make and then change minimum wages is because of what I am talking about Target that is what you dont get.

    Imagine people making 8.25 an hour in 1913 dollars. That would be amazing right. This shows that addressing a living wage is meaningless in a Federal Reserve System.
    But I think what many are trying to point out is: You deserve a decent salary for a days work. And since most people dont want to address Fed issue they go for Minimum.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    $15 min wage is insane.. what inflation rate will that cause; double digits surely..
    Target I do not think you understand inflation.

    For your own edification I suggest you read Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Fed of Chicago(I know you are probably skeptical). http://www.rayservers.com/images/Mod...yMechanics.pdf

    Increases wages does not cause inflation.
    Increasing money supply without corresponding increase in economic outpout(in a fiat system) is what causes inflation.

    And finally, if you actually cared about inflation caused by wages if that was actually a cause for inflation, why do you not care about CEO wages?
    well yes, its as simple as "law of supply and demand".

    Inflation: "In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1][2][3][4] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services; consequently, inflation reflects a reduction in the purchasing power per unit of money"
    Last edited by Bubu; 24th January 2019 at 01:38.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    You are confusing the correspondent raise in price with the aim of keeping better than past profit margin, as is the will of all corporate beings........

    That is not inflation,
    yea, seems like inflation to me...... less purchasing power etc....

    which is all the consumer cares about...

    if i call it "less purchasing power" you'll agree? the term isn't important.... the "less purchasing power" is.
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    wage earner will rejoice with increase minimum wage, businesses including small ones will despise it. we can debate all day about inflation or no inflation and it will not solve the problem of the masses. The increase in wages will simply be pass on to price increase. some will benefit some will be disadvantage. The thing to do is to increase the amount of products from the grass roots not from multinationals. see their efforts are directed to poisoning the land for less food. Dumbing the people for less ingenuity. preventing people from using natural resources and so on. The simple strategy is for them to control everything that we need. Inflation is a mere nuisance a diversionary tactic.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    You are confusing the correspondent raise in price with the aim of keeping better than past profit margin, as is the will of all corporate beings........

    That is not inflation,
    yea, seems like inflation to me...... less purchasing power etc....

    which is all the consumer cares about...

    if i call it "less purchasing power" you'll agree? the term isn't important.... the "less purchasing power" is.
    I generalize it a bit like you as well ... any phenomenon that causes my purchasing power for means of survival / living to go down, I feel fair to call "Inflation". Although I do know there is a very specific definition for it ... "get your communication across" vs "trying to be 100% technically accurate" -- its a balancing act.

    That said, I do think that wage increases are by far not the most prominent cause, and does work to stimulate local economy, which is the "good" side of inflation. Fair arguments on both sides, i'd say. At the end of the day it doesn't matter much because someone is always getting screwed somewhere ...
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    ...The wealthiest people in this country are the ones who are pushing these socialist policies. The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, George Soros... all of these people throw their financial support behind socialism. Does it give you comfort that these are the people on your side?
    Comfort? It would give me great joy if your list of miscreants all pooled their resources with the people. They would actually qualify as philanthropists instead of several of the heads of the hydra, which they are. God, I wish I could write a sentence like you did. Our favorite Empire, the Rothschild Banking Uberlords - that's like $50 trillion, right? Yippieeeee! Can't wait, watching my mailbox.

    Again, let's get back to some semblance of the concepts we are discussing. Would you be ok with setting aside the words "capitalism" and "socialism" and using "owning" and "sharing" instead? I don't read mainstream propaganda and anything that echoes the voices of the nefarious overlords of planet Earth isn't going to hold my attention. I have already given this too much attention. My message to you is you are grossly misusing the word socialism as a scapegoat pejorative, you have provided numerous examples of misuse of the word/concept, and are ineffectively communicating the glories and wonders and humanity saving potential of unfettered capitalism.

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains
    ...

    Yes, the people who employ us and give us paychecks are the evil ones, just like Karl Marx told us.
    ...

    No matter how strongly you hate people with more money than you...

    ...

    So why is it so hard to put 2 and 2 together and realize that the CIA and globalists are the ones pushing socialism, Dennis?


    Your arguments lack any substance.

    First, you have to actually know what the word socialism means. Then you might be able to spot who promotes it and who does not. I don't want to have a "meme poster war" with you, but those images are all true - if substituting the word "capitalism" for socialism. The rustbelt crumbing city? US capitalists moved most manufacturing operations - and all jobs that could be exported - to third-world countries. This image is a powerful indictment against capitalism. The next image looks like a sh!tty field hospital in some war-torn country that the globalists-capitalists have attacked to sack and pillage. The next image is what happens every time a hurricane is predicted to make landfall in the southeastern seaboard of the US. The scarcity training and hording behavior are results of capitalism. The final image, the supposed mansion of a member of the USA, INC. Congress, is accurate, though the caption is hilarious once you realize that insider trading within the capitalist system - that they made legal for themselves - is how these miscreants (EVERY one of whom is a capitalist) all got rich. So you've done a seriously poor job of defending your thesis by meme.

    "Socialiam" and "communism" have simply become frustrated pejoratives. The most hilarious one had to be when the republican-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly faction started calling barack obama a socialist! barack obama is and always was a democrat-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly team member. The republican-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly faction couldn't think of what to say to badmouth their democrat-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly "opponent" {wink, wink} without pointing out the obvious (both are aligned with and controlled by the same group of overlords), so they called him a "socialist!" hahahahahaha

    Here, try it yourself, it's fun:

    (fill-in the blank!) "I don't like the following US politician, ______________, so obviously they are socialist."

    (this one is extra fun, extra full of irony) "In a world run by capitalists, some bad thing happened, ______________, and so that was because of socialism."

    It's just like the US duopoly blue team, the democrats, with their, "Putin did it!" meme.

    We just sort of need to get a grip on definitions when discussing concepts like "socialism" and "capitalism", and not just emit emotions and programming. All of us are products of our programming.


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  23. Link to Post #35
    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    ...When the government intervenes in the free market system, it is a form of socialism...
    If you define socialism so loosely as anything that impedes capitalism, then your definition is so broad as to be meaningless.

    ...

    Don't assume I'm Marxist. I'm not. I also wouldn't qualify as any existing Socialist organization's adherent. There are many billions of transactions that occur within the capitalist system that I'm fine with. If I had to give an elevator speech about how I'd like to see the current economic paradigm change, it would introduce the idea of an economy where goods and services for human needs would all be done non-profit, and all goods and services for human desires could be capitalist (for-profit) ventures (corporations, worker-owned cooperative businesses, partnerships, sole proprietorships), with stipulations: heavily regulated for pollution and human exploitation.

    The phrasing "hatred of the rich" sounds like something I'd expect from their thinktanks, to cover up for our hatred of the crimes and legalized crimes that were committed to gain that wealth. Human carnage and exploitation, environmental toxification, gaming the system and gaining control of the system and rigging the system and gaming the system even harder, and skimming from every one of our transactions, and massive theft of resources, and massive theft of land... all that it took to make the uber-wealthy wealthy far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals like you and me. There is a large pile, a mountain, of corpses beneath their feet. We can stand back in awe of their cleverness, and applaud as they continue to own and control a greater and greater portion of the world. I think I read that 8 people now kinda sorta own half the world's wealth. You don't have to be an environmentalist or respect humans - maybe you could even be an economist - to figure out that the bigger picture of balance is greatly upset by the "undue influence" of a tablefull of people owning half the planet's wealth. Hate em? No, and I'm not jealous and don't covet a lifestyle or way of being not rooted in compassion. I know what being rich really means, to be bathed in love and to emit love and compassion. I'm not greedy, so I don't consider greed an accomplishment.

    The entire US economy is capitalist. Every lawmaker (US Congressperson) is a capitalist. A report from Princeton/Northwestern showed that US citizens have zero influence on laws and policy. Zero. So, everything within the US economy is, and was, capitalist, completely controlled by capitalists. You don't get to pretend it's socialist when you don't like what the capitalists did. As a spokesman for capitalism, you can't go popping champagne corks about how great capitalism is while it is raking in record profits (and blind to anything else), and scream, "Yay capitalism!", and then when any of those predictable consequences from lowest-possible-wages highest-possible-pollution highest-possible-profit capitalism show the human and environmental cost - in addition to the economic problems - scream, "Boo socialism!"

    It's not a game, and no, it's not a science. It's humans, non-human life forms, and the planet. That's my milieu, not theoretical economic models, and I'm not a proper spokesman for Socialism, so I'll end my participation here.


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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    the free market.. the economy.. or the working poor
    it all depends on who you feel you need to protect more
    you can argue about capitalism and socialism and fail to understand that fear of inflation demands paying the minimum.. always.

    so, if you are honest AVFTM, you have no time for empathy for the wage slave.. it gets in the way of opinionating on how much we deserve to live on.

    I asked you if you are existing on minimum wage.. let's start there.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    ...When the government intervenes in the free market system, it is a form of socialism...
    If you define socialism so loosely as anything that impedes capitalism, then your definition is so broad as to be meaningless.

    ...

    Don't assume I'm Marxist. I'm not. I also wouldn't qualify as any existing Socialist organization's adherent. There are many billions of transactions that occur within the capitalist system that I'm fine with. If I had to give an elevator speech about how I'd like to see the current economic paradigm change, it would introduce the idea of an economy where goods and services for human needs would all be done non-profit, and all goods and services for human desires could be capitalist (for-profit) ventures (corporations, worker-owned cooperative businesses, partnerships, sole proprietorships), with stipulations: heavily regulated for pollution and human exploitation.

    The phrasing "hatred of the rich" sounds like something I'd expect from their thinktanks, to cover up for our hatred of the crimes and legalized crimes that were committed to gain that wealth. Human carnage and exploitation, environmental toxification, gaming the system and gaining control of the system and rigging the system and gaming the system even harder, and skimming from every one of our transactions, and massive theft of resources, and massive theft of land... all that it took to make the uber-wealthy wealthy far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals like you and me. There is a large pile, a mountain, of corpses beneath their feet. We can stand back in awe of their cleverness, and applaud as they continue to own and control a greater and greater portion of the world. I think I read that 8 people now kinda sorta own half the world's wealth. You don't have to be an environmentalist or respect humans - maybe you could even be an economist - to figure out that the bigger picture of balance is greatly upset by the "undue influence" of a tablefull of people owning half the planet's wealth. Hate em? No, and I'm not jealous and don't covet a lifestyle or way of being not rooted in compassion. I know what being rich really means, to be bathed in love and to emit love and compassion. I'm not greedy, so I don't consider greed an accomplishment.

    The entire US economy is capitalist. Every lawmaker (US Congressperson) is a capitalist. A report from Princeton/Northwestern showed that US citizens have zero influence on laws and policy. Zero. So, everything within the US economy is, and was, capitalist, completely controlled by capitalists. You don't get to pretend it's socialist when you don't like what the capitalists did. As a spokesman for capitalism, you can't go popping champagne corks about how great capitalism is while it is raking in record profits (and blind to anything else), and scream, "Yay capitalism!", and then when any of those predictable consequences from lowest-possible-wages highest-possible-pollution highest-possible-profit capitalism show the human and environmental cost - in addition to the economic problems - scream, "Boo socialism!"

    It's not a game, and no, it's not a science. It's humans, non-human life forms, and the planet. That's my milieu, not theoretical economic models, and I'm not a proper spokesman for Socialism, so I'll end my participation here.
    Its always a complete waste of time trying to have a reasonable conversation or a debate with an extremist. He has proved that to almost everyone on this forum by now, and I for one have no idea how such an extremist has been allowed to promote his views here as he has.

    It's not the articles he posts up, its the way he attacks and gaslights any member who he thinks even "might" be trying to provide an different perspective, by implying that they automatically are a "socialist commie" because they don't support his extremist view 100% Is this what you are encountering too Dennis?

    Due to this extremism its very obvious that he cannot have a reasonable discussion with anyone except those that support his extremist views - and whats the point of that?

    Any person with more than one perspective seem to be targets of his projecting this "socialist commie" persona onto, then he attacks the concept of a "socialist commie" as a round-about way of attacking the individual and gaslighting them after all they did was try to have a reasonable conversation on varying perspectives.

    I know several members here have already added him to their ignore list, and again what I don't understand is how Avalon allows him to not just promote his extremist views, but allows him to attack any member in the way I describe without ever offering anything to a reasonable discussion. All he does is preach, project and attack. There's literally nothing more than that.

    How long will this be allowed to continue on an otherwise good forum?
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: $15 NY min. wage already causing layoffs, reduced hours, higher prices

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    ...

    "Socialiam" and "communism" have simply become frustrated pejoratives. The most hilarious one had to be when the republican-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly faction started calling barack obama a socialist! barack obama is and always was a democrat-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly team member. The republican-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly faction couldn't think of what to say to badmouth their democrat-corporatist-militarist-zionist-globalist duopoly "opponent" {wink, wink} without pointing out the obvious (both are aligned with and controlled by the same group of overlords), so they called him a "socialist!" hahahahahaha

    Here, try it yourself, it's fun:

    (fill-in the blank!) "I don't like the following US politician, ______________, so obviously they are socialist."

    (this one is extra fun, extra full of irony) "In a world run by capitalists, some bad thing happened, ______________, and so that was because of socialism."

    ...

    I must have missed this post somehow ... Dennis that is Hilarious! But so appropriate.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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