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Thread: The last laugh

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    one of the main, if not the main reason the society had gone nuts is because people let the authorities decide on the faith of the society. people should take responsibility of overseeing the safety and orderly of the society. its easy enough to have a poll on avalon.
    ex.

    Bubu the snide has cause a lot of s*** on avalon lately. here is his actions blah blah blah. shall we suspend him or send him to Venezuela for good? no action = 0 , suspend= 0 , send to venezuela= 100
    This idea comes up a lot.

    It sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in practice.

    It leads to a form of mob-acracy, and/or personality contests.

    What I'm suggesting is to put principles over personalities.
    .
    If the consensus is happy, I suppose none of this matters....
    principles and personalizes goes hand and hand. If personalities are f*** up then principles are too. Me thinks. So basically its hopeless unless people first change. As they say "governments are what people are". If you do think that its going to lead to mob-acracy then you are suggesting that collective Avalon personality is f** up in that case I guess its time for me to exit. Well, I dont think so Avalon collectively is a good personality and so principle. The only mobsters here are the trolls and they are not many compared to honest members. what is to be done by members is to participate in the decision making. numbers count.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Many of us did participate in the decision. We voiced our opinions, as Bill said many people complained, some of us publicly, others by pm. From there, it was in the mods' hands to decide what action to take. I've said before, I may not like some decisions but I respect that the mods are fair, honest, and have the spirit of Avalon at heart.

    And if Bill thumbs up the decisions that is good enough for me.
    Why Not?

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    one of the main, if not the main reason the society had gone nuts is because people let the authorities decide on the faith of the society. people should take responsibility of overseeing the safety and orderly of the society. its easy enough to have a poll on avalon.
    ex.

    Bubu the snide has cause a lot of s*** on avalon lately. here is his actions blah blah blah. shall we suspend him or send him to Venezuela for good? no action = 0 , suspend= 0 , send to venezuela= 100
    This idea comes up a lot.

    It sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in practice.

    It leads to a form of mob-acracy, and/or personality contests.

    What I'm suggesting is to put principles over personalities.
    .
    If the consensus is happy, I suppose none of this matters....
    principles and personalizes goes hand and hand. If personalities are f*** up then principles are too. Me thinks. So basically its hopeless unless people first change. As they say "governments are what people are". If you do think that its going to lead to mob-acracy then you are suggesting that collective Avalon personality is f** up in that case I guess its time for me to exit. Well, I dont think so Avalon collectively is a good personality and so principle. The only mobsters here are the trolls and they are not many compared to honest members. what is to be done by members is to participate in the decision making. numbers count.
    Bubu, I wanted to think about this a bit. I can see your logic, but I wondered to myself, "Is that true?"

    In thinking about it, I don't think it is. Principles stand independent from the whims of personalities.

    That the basis of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, and why those two documents of stated shared principles are under constant assault by people who would love to rule by personality.

    I also want to correct myself in the way I earlier used the word, consensus.

    Consensus allows a deep hearing of a minority voice incorporated into the the decision-making process. (That definitely didn't happen here. )

    Popular vote doesn't always work because very often in that system, the minority voice gets overshadowed by the majority, or popular opinion.
    This is why in the US the Electorial College was set up, as a way to counterbalance what is called the "tyranny of the majority."

    It really doesn't have anything to do with whether people are good or bad, it's more about human nature.

    One of the comments that I most appreciated from ripple was one that he, personally, didn't feel very proud of, because he was stumbling through how to express it.

    What I saw him doing was trying to apply the practice of first principles, often used in science, to a really big humanity issue.

    It was hugely innovative, creative and a near brilliant leap in logic. It was also messy, unclear, not yet fully formulated. And beautiful.

    People project their expectations and shadow selves onto other people all the time, good people do this, ... a lot.

    Sometimes, especially "good" people.

    People are responsible as much for how they chose to interpret others as they are for how they communicate to others.

    Most of the communication process happens inside each person's brain. An area that only a self-aware person can access, with a concerted focused effort to try to do so, and even then, anyone can get triggered emotionally and react from that emotion, which is not always the most accurate space in which to understand another person's intent.

    Principles counterbalance the vagaries of our biology, and personalities.

    This is why science uses first principles. And why almost all wisdom teachings are essentially universal principles.

    I don't know if that clarifies my thinking for you?

    For example, when you think of the word 'ripples' what comes to mind?

    Someone in an earlier comment on this thread used it the way of what is often phrased, "making waves".

    When I read ripple's comment I thought of this visual. It's a thought process I intend to continue to ponder, because I feel it will bear beneficial fruit.



    Is it possible that people were so pre-occupied with being offended that they didn't listen deeply?

    And therefore missed this little gem... and the human being, ripple.
    Last edited by edina; 8th February 2019 at 23:05.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    yep got your point, thats after I look up the meaning of "principle". and the protocol should be based on the principle of human frailties. the normal and logical protocol is first offense, warning, second offense suspension and then retirement. something like this.

    we dont dismissed family members ever. but here we can at least give a second maybe third chance.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    yep got your point, thats after I look up the meaning of "principle". and the protocol should be based on the principle of human frailties. the normal and logical protocol is first offense, warning, second offense suspension and then retirement. something like this.

    we dont dismissed family members ever. but here we can at least give a second maybe third chance.
    Yes Bubu!!!

    You are tracking with my logic.

    There are fair labor laws in the US that require this sort of system to be in place in the professional world.

    When someone is 'dismissed' from the work place without having been given an opportunity to self-correct then the dismissed person can and often does file for unemployment benefits.

    If the employer cannot demonstrate that they indeed were clear about their expectations and gave the person an opportunity to self-correct, then that business is charged with some hefty fines.

    It's really just common sense, and common courtesy!!!

    Being 'dismissed', 'suspended', and 'unsubscribed' are essentially acts of ostracizing. It triggers the shame centers in the brain.

    And therefore, also the shame centers in the brains of other people in the environment.

    Your above layout of first offense, warning, second offense, suspension and third offense, unsubscribed follows the gist of the process.

    There can, and I feel ought to be, more to it.

    It starts first with very clearly stated guidelines. Crystal clear expectations, usually in written form.

    I'll come back later, probably sometime tonight or this weekend, with some ideas of how that may look in a forum environment.

    Thank you Bubu, for listening to understand.

    That's a wonderful quality in a person, You are greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by edina; 9th February 2019 at 17:19.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    who is ripple? I'm intrigued now.
    Funny world as I now find myself about to embark on a ripple read.

    Julian/BMW/Charles/Atticus/Stephen used the word space comma signature too.
    But , some of you already know that lol.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by snoman (here)
    who is ripple? I'm intrigued now.
    Funny world as I now find myself about to embark on a ripple read.

    Julian/BMW/Charles/Atticus/Stephen used the word space comma signature too.
    But , some of you already know that lol.
    This made me laugh.

    ripple also has a very strong energy in his focus.
    But, not as strong as Atticus.

    And his smell is different.
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 17:20.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Guys it's like this:

    When you arrive at a gathering or a party or campfire or whatever, and you don't know anybody there, common courtesy dictates that you at least attempt to ingratiate yourself a little. A little! It's a show of respect. A complete lack of this displays a form of disrespect.

    Basic manners would ask that a new arrival to any family-like group not shout the loudest and talk the most and demand all the attention. Most grown adults should have this type of awareness.

    When joining an established group of people for a discussion, you can't expect the group to suddenly adjust to your nuances and peccadillos and quirky communication style. Not at first anyway. It's the new arrivals responsibility to adjust to the group. The goal shouldn't be to overwhelm with your personality, it should be to feel the group out and look for opportunities to express your uniqueness...so everyone can slowly adjust to your eccentric style.

    this requires awareness....awareness of who you are and what your communication style is like, and a knowing that it may rub a few people the wrong way if not adjusted slightly. it also requires respect...respect for the people around you that may appreciate this slight adjustment. it also requires a pinch of humility...because you are now part of a group that requires you to consider people other than yourself.

    Ripple was smart and funny and i enjoyed reading him sometimes, but he was also a bull in a china shop.. and sorely lacking in all the qualities i just mentioned. The effort it would have taken him to be just a bit more congenial would have been minimal, but he was unwilling to make it. and that's why he's no longer here. i liked him, and i'm just as disappointed as some of you are, but he had to go.
    Snarkiness is never smart or funny in my estimation. The reason I STAY on this forum is because the mean people go elsewhere. Baiting Bill was uncool and yes he had to go .

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by avatar (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Guys it's like this:

    When you arrive at a gathering or a party or campfire or whatever, and you don't know anybody there, common courtesy dictates that you at least attempt to ingratiate yourself a little. A little! It's a show of respect. A complete lack of this displays a form of disrespect.

    Basic manners would ask that a new arrival to any family-like group not shout the loudest and talk the most and demand all the attention. Most grown adults should have this type of awareness.

    When joining an established group of people for a discussion, you can't expect the group to suddenly adjust to your nuances and peccadillos and quirky communication style. Not at first anyway. It's the new arrivals responsibility to adjust to the group. The goal shouldn't be to overwhelm with your personality, it should be to feel the group out and look for opportunities to express your uniqueness...so everyone can slowly adjust to your eccentric style.

    this requires awareness....awareness of who you are and what your communication style is like, and a knowing that it may rub a few people the wrong way if not adjusted slightly. it also requires respect...respect for the people around you that may appreciate this slight adjustment. it also requires a pinch of humility...because you are now part of a group that requires you to consider people other than yourself.

    Ripple was smart and funny and i enjoyed reading him sometimes, but he was also a bull in a china shop.. and sorely lacking in all the qualities i just mentioned. The effort it would have taken him to be just a bit more congenial would have been minimal, but he was unwilling to make it. and that's why he's no longer here. i liked him, and i'm just as disappointed as some of you are, but he had to go.
    Snarkiness is never smart or funny in my estimation. The reason I STAY on this forum is because the mean people go elsewhere. Baiting Bill was uncool and yes he had to go .
    Bill baits people himself.
    Especially people who disagree with him, or post in a way in which he disapproves.
    He very often uses indirect and back hand insults hidden behind the guise of humor.

    And yet, everyone is okay with that here. Why?
    Reread the posts exchanged in this thread and see who baited who first?
    I don't say this as a way to put people on the defensive, but more to offer an opportunity to think about it.

    What makes it okay for one, and not the other?


    Sarcasm and mocking is the national humor in the UK.
    It was hard lesson for me to learn that it was almost like a national character for people who lived and grew up in the UK.
    And to not take that sense of humor, personal.

    If you reread ripple's posts, you will see he challenged people intellectually.
    And with typical British humor.
    But he was not mean.

    People interpreted him as mean. That doesn't mean that is true.

    I remember early on in my days here at Avalon, a similar discussion coming up, about cultural differences.
    In that case, it was informative to me when Flash described the general tone of Eastern European people.
    Very insightful.

    We can always learn and expand ourselves, when we are dealing with people, and cultures that are different from ourselves, and that take us outside our comfort zones.

    Tolerance works in many directions.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	The Four Agreements.jpg
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    (This is for you, Bubu One tool.)
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 18:39.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    btw, I understand that anything I say here, regarding ripple, won't make a difference in people's opinions of ripple.

    However, this situation only surfaces again, the need to have a better thought process/protocol and clearly defined expectations, rather than unspoken nebulous and at times arbitrary expectations of members.

    If this is given consideration, and applied, it will make life easier for Bill, the mod staff, and help members, especially lurkers from other cultures, feel safer in expressing themselves here, even if they are imperfect in their expression.

    It's well know in group dynamics that people often try to pressure newcomers to comply with their internal image of how the group feels people ought to be. Rather than getting to know them for who they actually are.

    It's called "group think" for a reason.

    If you take the internal, implicit, unspoken expectations and make them explicit and clear, it helps everyone involved.
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 20:10.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Bill baits people himself.
    Especially people who disagree with him, or post in a way in which he disapproves.
    He very often uses indirect and back hand insults hidden behind the guise of humor.
    Edina,

    Please

    I am now talking directly to your soul and I beg you to reconsider what you are saying here.
    Imagine now that you are face-to-face in a room speaking with Bill from your heart.

    And to take it further, imagine now that you are connecting with the essence of Bill soul-to-soul and that the love and compassion and warmth that radiates from your soul is now extending to this being called Bill.
    Imagine that the part of you that knows that you are a supernatural, multidimensional, cosmic, spiritual being on earth in human form is present and communicating at that level, and that level alone.
    Last edited by Constance; 10th February 2019 at 23:33.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Bill baits people himself.
    Especially people who disagree with him, or post in a way in which he disapproves.
    He very often uses indirect and back hand insults hidden behind the guise of humor.
    Edina,

    Please

    I am now talking directly to your soul and I beg you to consider what you are saying here.
    Imagine now that you are face-to-face in a room speaking with Bill from your heart.

    And to take it further, imagine now that you are connecting with the essence of Bill soul-to-soul and that the love and compassion and warmth that radiates from your soul is now extending to this being called Bill.
    Imagine that the part of you that knows that you are a supernatural, multidimensional, cosmic, spiritual being on earth in human form is present and communicating at that level, and that level alone.

    Thank you Constance,

    I'm actually already doing that.

    One point to note, it dehumanizes a person as much to idealize a person, put them on a pedestal, beyond question, as it does to demonize a person.

    I see Bill as a human.

    That is honorable.

    This is actually serving a much larger purpose.

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 20:46.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    Think about it....

    He is allowing this to play out David Bohm style. And not blocking it.

    The old Avalon way.

    The original Avalon way.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    One point to note, it dehumanizes a person as much to idealize a person, put them on a pedestal, beyond question, as it does to demonize a person.

    I see Bill as a human.

    That is honorable.

    This is actually serving a much larger purpose.

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    I've tried to appeal directly to your heart, to your soul and I'm not going to try to defend what you have said here.
    There would be no point.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    One point to note, it dehumanizes a person as much to idealize a person, put them on a pedestal, beyond question, as it does to demonize a person.

    I see Bill as a human.

    That is honorable.

    This is actually serving a much larger purpose.

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    I've tried to appeal directly to your heart, to your soul and I'm not going to try to defend what you have said here.
    There would be no point.
    If you think that what I said here is negative, then you've misunderstood.

    Is that what you think, Constance?

    I've noticed you've used the sad face emoticon twice now.

    How does what I say make you sad?

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    One point to note, it dehumanizes a person as much to idealize a person, put them on a pedestal, beyond question, as it does to demonize a person.

    I see Bill as a human.

    That is honorable.

    This is actually serving a much larger purpose.

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    I've tried to appeal directly to your heart, to your soul and I'm not going to try to defend what you have said here.
    There would be no point.
    If you think that what I said here is negative, then you've misunderstood.

    Is that what you think, Constance?

    I've noticed you've used the sad face emoticon twice now.

    How does what I say make you sad?
    Oh, and let me add. Please don't feel pressure to try to defend what I've said.
    There's nothing to defend.

    Just observe yourself ... within.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    I had told Bubu, I would get back with some ideas of how to apply principles/processes that are often used in the professional world to the forum environment.

    Before I get to that, there are a few things I want bring up to prepare the forum table, so to speak.

    As I am considering how to apply these ideas to the forum environment, I am revisiting the Avalon welcome page.

    For anyone who may be following this process, it would be helpful to revisit it as well, to follow along with my thinking.

    First there is this page: http://projectavalon.net/ (Last update, 29 January 2017)

    Quote The principal purpose of the Avalon Forum:

    To encourage and support positive, constructive, and high quality dialog and networking with the goal of creating the future on Planet Earth for ourselves and our children that we want to experience.
    Quote Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world.
    Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    Margaret Me (1901-1978)
    And then there is this page... This is a process that sets Avalon apart from almost all other forums. It's good to revisit it from time to time. I'll be referring back to it a lot, as I unfold my ideas and thinking.

    Welcome to Avalon OP

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    deleted. My last post still stands.
    Last edited by Constance; 10th February 2019 at 22:00.

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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    One point to note, it dehumanizes a person as much to idealize a person, put them on a pedestal, beyond question, as it does to demonize a person.

    I see Bill as a human.

    That is honorable.

    This is actually serving a much larger purpose.

    And to be honest, at the soul level, and probably at the personal level, I feel Bill knows this.
    I've tried to appeal directly to your heart, to your soul and I'm not going to try to defend what you have said here.
    There would be no point.
    If you think that what I said here is negative, then you've misunderstood.

    Is that what you think, Constance?

    I've noticed you've used the sad face emoticon twice now.

    How does what I say make you sad?
    deleted Constance's post per her request
    Exactly... thank you Constance.

    I'm taking it a step further, and hoping to offer a constructive solution, applicable to this forum, for consideration.

    Once it's out there, people can decide what they want to do with it, if anything.
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 23:14.

  38. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to edina For This Post:

    Bubu (11th February 2019), peterpam (11th February 2019)

  39. Link to Post #80
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    Default Re: The last laugh

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    I had told Bubu, I would get back with some ideas of how to apply principles/processes that are often used in the professional world to the forum environment.

    Before I get to that, there are a few things I want bring up to prepare the forum table, so to speak.

    As I am considering how to apply these ideas to the forum environment, I am revisiting the Avalon welcome page.

    For anyone who may be following this process, it would be helpful to revisit it as well, to follow along with my thinking.

    First there is this page: http://projectavalon.net/ (Last update, 29 January 2017)

    Quote The principal purpose of the Avalon Forum:

    To encourage and support positive, constructive, and high quality dialog and networking with the goal of creating the future on Planet Earth for ourselves and our children that we want to experience.
    Quote Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world.
    Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    Margaret Me (1901-1978)
    And then there is this page... This is a process that sets Avalon apart from almost all other forums. It's good to revisit it from time to time. I'll be referring back to it a lot, as I unfold my ideas and thinking.

    Welcome to Avalon OP
    The second set of ideas I want to put on the table comes from the business world.

    Tribal Leadership. It’s an older book, but I think it has relevance here.
    Quote TRIBAL LEADERSHIP details each of the five tribal stages and helps readers identify which actions affect it and which strategies will enable the tribe to upgrade to the next level. The authors discuss how each stage has a unique set of leverage points and why it is critical to understand them—more than three quarters of the organizations they studied have tribal cultures that are adequate at best. The five stages include:

    • Stage One: The stage most professionals skip, these are tribes whose members are despairingly hostile—they may create scandals, steal from the company, or even threaten violence.

    • Stage Two: The dominant culture for 25 percent of workplace tribes, this stage includes members who are passively antagonistic, sarcastic, and resistant to new management initiatives.

    • Stage Three: 49 percent of workplace tribes are in this stage, marked by knowledge hoarders who want to outwork and outthink their competitors on an individual basis. They are lone warriors who not only want to win, but need to be the best and brightest.

    • Stage Four: The transition from “I’m great” to “we’re great” comes in this stage where the tribe members are excited to work together for the benefit of the entire company.

    • Stage Five: Less than 2 percent of workplace tribal culture is in this stage when members who have made substantial innovations seek to use their potential to make a global impact.
    I imagine plenty members on this forum are already familiar with this book and it's ideas.

    If I were to hazard a guess, based on Bill’s stated purposes and visions, I imagine that given a preference Bill Ryan would prefer the culture of the Project Avalon community to be a Stage 5 culture.



    This is an educated assumption on my part. So, I could be wrong.
    Maybe he doesn't care?
    If so, then I ought to bow out if this conversation, right now.



    If you were to take the culture quiz, where do you think Project Avalon would be?



    When you think about it, in some ways, Project Avalon is Bill Ryan’s Legacy.

    If you allow yourself to be objective, you may consider:

    If Bill Ryan dies, does Project Avalon die with him?


    Is the forum so reliant on Bill’s strong personality, that if for some reason, something should happen to him, what would happen to the forum, without him?

    Perhaps there is already a continuity plan in place and I just don’t know it.

    If so, for anyone who knows, feel free to pop that into the discussion here.

    But, what I’m talking about here is less logistics and more the “spirit”, or “soul” of the forum.



    I figure, if I’m going to look at processes in terms of how the mod staff makes decisions on how they decide to take action against forum members, I may as well tie those processes to the larger vision of Avalon.

    That’s what is different about principles, versus rules.

    People can become bogged down in rules, rule-bound. (Stage 2 culture)

    Principles on the other hand, especially principles tied to an inspiring vision, are liberating, energizing and uplifting. (Stage 5 culture)

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    I'm going to let this sit a bit.

    I've got other things to do, and I am still thinking ....
    Last edited by edina; 10th February 2019 at 23:09.

  40. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to edina For This Post:

    Bubu (11th February 2019), peterpam (11th February 2019)

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