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Thread: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    haha, Dennis, you're trying your hardest to superglue the word socialism to cooperative common sense. Now you are getting political. Dang, if only you could make the word legit, then you could develop a crowd pulling strategy that could put political socialism back in the electable corner.

    Nice try, I guess, but what you are trying to define has nothing to do with socialism. Perhaps it would be better to deconstruct the simple version first. Just have a go at finding out where the word 'social' came from. Forget the ism part for now.

    Someone tell me, seriously, where does the word "social" actually come from. Does it have a politically neutral root somewhere?
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    You could have picked a better example than penguins, Dennis. Looking into their behaviour, this is the first article I found.
    In 2012, Douglas Russell of the Natural History Museum in London, UK unearthed a paper called "Sexual Habits of the Adélie Penguin". It was labelled "not for publication".

    Fights break out as mobs of broody mothers struggle with each other to steal a chick

    The paper was the work of George Murray Levick, Scott's expedition scientist and the first person to witness an entire breeding season. He was shocked by what he saw: gangs of males engaging in homosexual sex, sexually abusing chicks, and mating with dead females. At the time, the material was judged too depraved for public consumption.
    Though it was alarming for an Edwardian Englishman, the behaviour was entirely within the realms of biological normality. The "hooligan" males Levick observed were probably sexually inexperienced and making mistakes.
    This sort of thing does happen. In recent years, fur seals have been discovered trying to have sex with penguins on at least four separate occasions, and this may also be a simple mistake.
    The other Antarctic species, the emperor penguin, is if anything even worse.

    Female emperor penguins that have lost their own brood frequently "adopt" unattended chicks. If there are none available, things get violent. Fights break out as mobs of broody mothers struggle with each other to steal a chick from another penguin family.
    Kidnappings last from a few minutes to a few days. Most end with the chick being abandoned to die in the cold. One confused penguin even kidnapped its own natural enemy, the chick of a penguin-eating bird called a skua.
    It's a by-product of their very special strategy
    These kidnappings are bizarre and brutal in equal measures, and why the females do it has been puzzling scientists for decades.
    Emperor penguins are unique among birds, in that they nest in the middle of winter. The females must go to sea to feed, leaving the males to keep their offspring warm. This causes a problem. When most birds lose sight of their eggs, they stop producing the parenting hormone prolactin, and lose interest.
    To maintain their maternal instinct during their 2-month vacation, emperor penguin mothers maintain high levels regardless. Frédéric Angelier of the French National Center for Scientific Research in Villiers en Bois wondered if this hormone might explain the kidnappings.
    To find out, Angelier and his colleagues injected birds that had lost their chicks with bromocriptine, a chemical known to suppress prolactin. As they expected, these penguins kidnapped chicks less often than control penguins that did not receive bromocriptine.
    "It's a by-product of their very special strategy," says co-author Olivier Chastel. "If you are back from the sea and there is no chick, you still have this really high hormone level and you are likely to grab a chick."

    Finally, penguins have a reputation for romance, and this too is not really deserved.
    A shortage of stones has pushed many females into "prostitution"
    Emperor penguins form long-distance relationships that endure the Antarctic winter, and this has made them the poster children of monogamy. The penguins themselves have different ideas, and regularly get "divorced". Similarly, 81% of king penguins choose a different mate every season.
    Infidelity is also commonplace. Nearly a third of female Humboldt penguins cheat on their partners.
    This cheating is sometimes driven by factors that, to us, seem shockingly mercenary.
    Adélie penguins build nests out of stones, and a shortage of stones has pushed many females into "prostitution": they mate with other males in exchange for stones. Some duplicitous females have started going through the elaborate courtship ritual to get the stones, and then running off before the male can mate. Both sexes also steal stones from their rivals' nests.
    They certainly sound exactly like the liberal elite socialists that have given ‘socialism’ it’s negative connotations over the years.

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    United States Moderator Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    haha, Dennis, you're trying your hardest to superglue the word socialism to cooperative common sense. Now you are getting political. Dang, if only you could make the word legit, then you could develop a crowd pulling strategy that could put political socialism back in the electable corner.

    Nice try, I guess, but what you are trying to define has nothing to do with socialism. Perhaps it would be better to deconstruct the simple version first. Just have a go at finding out where the word 'social' came from. Forget the ism part for now.

    Someone tell me, seriously, where does the word "social" actually come from. Does it have a politically neutral root somewhere?
    meh

    This feels like playing semantic games. Do you really not know what I'm talking about? (The biological drive of individuals toward group survival? The other direction of energy flow from the individual, compared to the biological drive of individuals toward individual survival.)

    I'm using the word "socialism" because the underlying principal biological drive toward group survival is the underlying principle of political socialism. You can argue against any semblance of political Socialism (where that's the topic) but let's not go off into fantasy land where animals only have a drive towards their own individual self. Use the word cooperation, or use a made-up word like "group-ism" or "we-ism" if you have to.

    I really don't want to play word games.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.

    Most people in Western society are either extremely wary of the term, or else conditioned with all the wrong ideas of big brother making it for you. There are lots of ideas in this thread which are synergistic, once one scratches beneath the surface.

    To go back to the op, I think socialism is considering that given the amount that is taken from me through taxes, I ought to get some benefit beyond the most basic infrastructure. Safeguards against corruption, an incentive towards efficiency, making it give us our money's worth, ought to all be the hallmarks of good government, right along with leaving me alone for the most part. Just paying taxes ought to be enough for there to be enough for everyone, instead we have waste and favors. The reset button was a good meme, while it lasted.
    Last edited by PurpleLama; 11th February 2019 at 23:54.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.
    ^^I agree.

    I don't get trying to shoe horn "socialism" into what your (D) talking about, just shock factor?

    I'm sure your not trying to normalize the term and get people to think of it in a positive way (common MSM tactic), are you?

    Whats wrong with Unbuntu (the translation is something like: a person is a person through their people)? I think that fits what your trying to describe a lot better & doesn't have all the baggage with it.

    Socialism is political, it doesn't exist in nature unless you re-define it; and that is the worst possible thing to do (forced linguistic drift) as it causes confusion & can be (often is) misleading.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    You would get more street cred with a link to Michael tellinger talking about ubuntu, rather than slick Willie. LOL
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    United States Moderator Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.
    Yes, when I write out my political thoughts, I usually avoid the poisoned word "socialism", and use "citizen-centric" to try to describe policy beneficial to the group. I think this thread underscored that it is a poisoned word with a history flooded with an immense amount of Ruling Elite think-tank nebulous, fear-generating, propaganda. A lot of time and money has been devoted to making sure that the Ruling Elite maintain their status quo of a very few controlling the many and owning literally half the wealth of the world. The word "socialism" is not able to be resurrected.

    The thread (because almost every single person answered politically) hints that most/many people think capitalism is the opposite of socialism, and more, that they believe there cannot be a political system that incorporates both (even though I listed half a dozen countries off the top of my head - including the US - that have some socialism and some capitalism.) For a few people, there may be an even larger impasse to conversation, if they are attempting to negate the very existence of group cooperative strategies in nature. Others think it means centralization of power, even though political socialism is decentralization of power and much more horizontal governance. It has been interesting, and revealing.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

    . . . . political socialism is decentralization of power and much more horizontal governance. It has been interesting, and revealing.
    You'll have the expand on that because I don't see that in the world around me, other than in the David Icke sense, where we police ourselves so the elite don't have to lift a finger, we do it for them. Yea, that's a horizontal dynamic for sure, but I certainly wouldn't put it in the plus column.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Is what is beneficial to the individual really the opposite of what is beneficial to the group?
    No. It's not the opposite, it is the opposite direction of energy flow. […]

    How are we going to be able to discuss "political socialism" intelligently if we solely focuses on the one direction of energy flow we like the best, and worse, if we pretend the other direction of energy flow doesn't exist as a natural and normal part of the species survival?
    Is what is beneficial to the individual necessarily the opposite direction of energy flow of what is beneficial to the group?

    The energy flow directed towards myself is well able to simulataneously benefit the group. It can be a win-win-situation and go in both directions.

    Directing energy to any aspect of creation can be to direct energy to the whole, depending on the quality of the energy.
    History says otherwise. The group outnumbers the individual. So the usual way to get everyone flowing in the same direction is to eliminate the non-conformers.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Wiki:

    "Originally the term "socialist" was often used interchangeably with "co-operative", "mutualist", "associationist" and "collectivist" in reference to the organization of economic enterprise socialists advocated, in contrast to the private enterprise and corporate organizational structures inherent to capitalism."

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