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Thread: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

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    Virgin Islands Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Socialism is the most selfish approach to society, it follows the idea of:

    "I'm here, give me ****"

    the only way socialism works is through theft; there is no other way... it is always immoral to steal, even if you vote to do so.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by aKnightThatSaysNi (here)
    Nobody would have an issue with Socialism if it was just "people helping people." If we are going to distort the word to mean whatever we think is good in the world, then what is the point of this discussion. No decent person is against charity.

    You want to see a Danish economics student turn red, tell him his country is Socialist. To the shock of my professor, the three students from Nordic counties, two from Denmark and one from Finland in my economics class became visibly upset and vocally angry when this was stated by my professor. It turned into a shouting match and he decided to just end the class.
    The top four countries with the Happiest Citizenry:

    1. Finland
    2. Norway
    3. Denmark
    4. Iceland

    And it surely isn't their amazing weather driving this!
    And none of them practice "Socialism"

    https://www.quora.com/Are-Norway-Den...list-countries

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    United States Avalon Member AriG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Socialism is the most selfish approach to society, it follows the idea of:

    "I'm here, give me ****"

    the only way socialism works is through theft; there is no other way... it is always immoral to steal, even if you vote to do so.
    Don't want to turn this into a debate - don't think that is Dennis' intention for this thread. But... seriously? YES, i am here, give me ****e. Absolutely yes! Do you seriously believe that the Capitalists are entitled to hoard all of the resources of this world? And they do it through generational theft (Rothschilds) and deception. So yes, as a citizen of Earth you are entitled to have shelter, eat, medicine, water, protection from the elements. You, by virtue of your birth have every bit as much right to basic comfort as anyone else. And if the system is making this difficult to attain at best? Yes, we as the people of Earth need to step in and put an end to it. And of course, if you can work, you must. That goes without saying. People of this screwed up world do not enter on a level playing field. This "every man for himself" mentality is unconscionable. You don't have to surrender your rights to a government to support basic living conditions for all and better for those who can afford it. Its just humane to do so.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    It appears you are confusing Capitalism (another word that I feel needs to be tossed) with corporatism or what Chesterton called Proletarianism.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Our basic problem with these premises is that we immediately look to an authority to implement the required laws.
    That is the very problem. Government is corrupt and inept. They could not tie a shoe without a debate and an oversight committee.
    It is government that has corrupted the idea of socialism. Just as it has capitalism...
    Why Not?

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by aKnightThatSaysNi (here)
    It appears you are confusing Capitalism (another word that I feel needs to be tossed) with corporatism or what Chesterton called Proletarianism.
    And possibly Socialism with Humanism?

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    I agree that government is the problem, I would say that is true for thousands of years and was warned against by God in 1 Samuel 8. (Sorry for the biblical reference.)

    But, Socialism is the state owning the means of production. Unless we are supposed to be talking about anarcho-communisim, I don't see how you can have Socialism without the state and Socialism has so far, always led to tyranny. Again, if we are just redefining the term, its impossible to have a conversation about it.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by aKnightThatSaysNi (here)
    It appears you are confusing Capitalism (another word that I feel needs to be tossed) with corporatism or what Chesterton called Proletarianism.
    And possibly Socialism with Humanism?
    Maybe that is what is being done here but they not the same thing. Capitalism and Corporatism are not the same thing. Humanism and Socialism are not the same thing. Charity and Socialism are not the same thing.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    So yes, as a citizen of Earth you are entitled to have shelter, eat, medicine, water, protection from the elements.
    Cool, so who do I steal that stuff from?

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    You, by virtue of your birth have every bit as much right to basic comfort as anyone else.
    Comfort?? basic comfort?

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    And of course, if you can work, you must. That goes without saying.
    So theft AND forced labor...



    Logic still prevails, NO ONE has the "right" to comfort... and no one is entitled to anything that they have not labored or "earned" in some way.

    The only true "laws" are the laws taught to us by Nature... entitlement is not present in any of them; human concepts like "rights" and "entitlement" don't really exist; no matter how much we'd like them to.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    T if that were true I would be a guerilla warrior, blowing **** up and bringing chaos to a world that pats itself on the back. Those rights you dismiss are enjoyed by every sovereign beast. Only humans are born into a world already spoken for in its entirety.
    Why Not?

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    T if that were true I would be a guerilla warrior, blowing **** up and bringing chaos to a world that pats itself on the back. Those rights you dismiss are enjoyed by every sovereign beast. Only humans are born into a world already spoken for in its entirety.
    comfort though?

    I disagree, please tell me where the basic right to comfort, or any of the other stuff he listed, exists in nature?

    You do not have a right to food, shelter, medicine, water or protection from the elements... no animal and nothing in nature does; all of those things must be earned through labor or effort of some type.


    the "rights" argument to support socialism isn't a very good one.

    you can dress it up how ever you want, but in the end socialism is theft.

    Capitalism is FAR more egalitarian... in capitalism you are ENCOURAGED (not forced) to do things for others so they will do things for you, socialism is the opposite.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Denis is right. The definition of socialism is murky and changes with each individual...
    So does capitalism...
    Why Not?

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    [QUOTE=TargeT;1273834]
    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    So yes, as a citizen of Earth you are entitled to have shelter, eat, medicine, water, protection from the elements.
    Quote Cool, so who do I steal that stuff from?
    You don't steal it. You take it back from the system that stole it from humanity.

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    You, by virtue of your birth have every bit as much right to basic comfort as anyone else.
    Quote Comfort?? basic comfort?
    Ok, let me clarify. There should be a bare minimum standard below which, no one should have to live. I am not suggesting that everyone have "basic" anything. I am just suggesting that we as a civil society, should not allow people to starve and suffer no medical care. If you earn more than the basic minimum, get whatever you want. Not suggesting limits. Just suggesting acceptable minimum.

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    And of course, if you can work, you must. That goes without saying.
    Quote So theft AND forced labor..
    .

    No, an individual would always have the choice to not work or contribute. Not sure many would opt for that. Change my "must work" to "should work"



    Quote Logic still prevails, NO ONE has the "right" to comfort... and no one is entitled to anything that they have not labored or "earned" in some way.
    You contradict yourself. Above, you state a work expectation would be forced labor and now you suggest that you must labor for the bare essentials.

    Quote The only true "laws" are the laws taught to us by Nature... entitlement is not present in any of them; human concepts like "rights" and "entitlement" don't really exist; no matter how much we'd like them to.
    Do birds have to create the trees in which they nest? Do ants have to get a mortgage to build their ant colonies? You cannot compare a very complex and unfair system created by humans to thriving in the Natural world with the innate knowledge and resources that were designed in wild species. The Corporate and Government devils even seek to capitalize upon the natural systems that support the fauna. Mankind is not a product of Earth. We inhabit it. We have no natural means of defense. And most of us a preyed upon by a Predatory Systems that honors money and control over basic human dignity.

    Edit to add:

    And I fear that you may have Cherry picked my post. I didn't say do away with money, possessions, wealth or anything that is worshiped by the Elites. I said that in my ideal circumstance, none of these things would be permitted to be publicly traded and produce profit beyond paying stakeholders and covering expenses. I also stated that if we have a minimum acceptable livable wage, that the essentials should be made affordable for everyone based upon that wage as a basis point. Just for the essentials. All else, fair game.
    Last edited by AriG; 7th February 2019 at 21:14.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Its a difficult topic, easy to get lost in the weeds on it.

    I over simplify in an attempt to avoid getting mired in minutia

    I'm a much bigger fan of voulenterrism or anarco-capitalism

    Anything that is not forced, as limited "should" or "must" language as possible

    Nothing should be forced on anyone, ever...

    Socialism is a large umbrella, with communist on the left and fascist on the right... but all of it includes some form of force.

    Not acceptable to me, no matter how its dressed up
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Socialism is...

    Socialism: social ism:

    "-ism" is the word suffix indicating "belief in."

    social-ism is thus: the belief in "social."

    What is "social", what does it indicate? "Social" refers to a group of individuals, plural, more than an individual. "Social" refers to a group.

    Social interaction is energy exchange between individuals in a group.

    Socialism is the belief in the group. The words "belief in" don't do a good job unless describing humans, unless we think that non-human animals have belief systems too. (I don't.) The phrase "work toward" is a better description than "belief in" when you think of non-human animal species. Animal species activities range from species that exhibit very little social interaction other than mating and rearing young, and fighting territorial interlopers (like maybe a jaguar), to animal species that have constant social interaction (like dolphins, penguins, apes, humans.) What humans refer to as socialism has been an adaptation and survival strategy in animal communities for millions and millions of years before any humans created a name for the group benefit/group survival strategy. Witness the huddling together of Emperor penguins through the Antarctic winter. It's a group energy exchange (in this case, body heat) to benefit the group, to ensure the group survival. This is an excellent example of socialism that involves an entire species. So, socialism is better described as "working toward the group", rather than "believing in the group." The group may not include the entire species, but may rather be a subset of the entire species, divided into "tribes"/"pods"/"packs", etc., but still is based on group rather than individual survival strategy. Socialism is working toward the group.

    That's my answer to the question, 'what is socialism?': Socialism is working toward the group.


    The opposite of socialism: (Understanding the opposite of a concept helps narrow the definition of the concept.)

    In terms of energy flow direction:
    The opposite of socialism (working toward the group) is individualism (working toward the individual.)
    "Individualism" and "socialism" are not mutually exclusive terms. An individual can both work toward the individual and work toward toward the group, cyclically, sporadically, or even simultaneously. In fact, this is the norm among animal species, and I'd say that both directions of energy flow are critical to the survival of the species, and individualism is critical for the survival of that one individual within the species. Socialism is "we-ism"; individualism is "me-ism" - both are simply directions of the flow of energy.

    In terms of resources, for humans:
    The opposite of socialism (group allocation) is hoarding (individual allocation)

    In terms of ownership, for humans:
    The opposite of socialism (group ownership of a "commons") is privatization (individual ownership, no commons)

    ====================
    I asked for everyone to define socialism and to define the opposite of socialism. Again, this is just my answer, not "the correct answer", but rather my opinion of the answer. I'm interested to compare and contrast my opinion with that of others.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    That's an abstract thought about socialism Dennis. It almost doesn't describe what the world knows as socialism at all.

    The group and the community and the species interacting with a bit of common cause is perfectly natural, and at a stretch we can call it socialism, but that's hardly what the word means in the current paradigm. The word is actually used to describe political socialism, and that's something quite different.

    Before coming around to softening the word enough to be able to talk about cooperation among multiples of the species, the word, as it stands in the current language, has more things that it isn't than what it is. It's isn't "family". It's isn't "love" or "respect", even. Sure, there's a lot of crowing about respect but it comes across to me as hollow machinations from communually lost mental abstractionists who can't seem to find the linkup between their heads and their hearts. People who use the word love like a dildo rather than like a hug. People who have lost "faith" in themselves as proactively responsible for maintaining a society that can give them everything they aspire to, not as rights, but as common achievements. That's a subtle difference but massive in it's orientational significance.

    Another good word to have a thread natter about would be 'Respect'.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Well, having a universal healthcare system is the best reason I can think of. Unlike every other first world country (leaving out those sometimes called sh*tholes) the American system has very serious problems, as noted in this recent article:

    "A study published in the American Journal of Public Health found that 67 percent of people filing for bankruptcy were wiped out by medical bills. That amounts to 530,000 families per year, a "figure that is virtually unchanged since before the passage of the Affordable Care Act (ACA)."

    From Physicians for a National Health Program:

    Dr. David Himmelstein, the lead author of the study, a Distinguished Professor at the City University of New York's (CUNY) Hunter College and Lecturer at Harvard Medical School commented: "Unless you're Bill Gates, you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy. For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection. Most of us have policies with so many loopholes, copayments and deductibles that illness can put you in the poorhouse. And even the best job-based health insurance often vanishes when prolonged illness causes job loss - just when families need it most. Private health insurance is a defective product, akin to an umbrella that melts in the rain."

    In the article, the authors note that "medical bills frequently cause financial hardship, and the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau reported that they were by far the most common cause of unpaid bills sent to collection agencies in 2014, accounting for more than half of all such debts."

    The U.S. already has socialized healthcare in the form of Medicare, but it simply doesn't cover enough Americans, leaving it, I suppose, with the same level of care as those previously noted sh*thole countries.

    Brian
    Last edited by Fellow Aspirant; 8th February 2019 at 02:44.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by spade (here)
    ...video...
    That's a 'hit piece.' Mr Microphone announces within 15 seconds it is an anti-socialism video. It adds nothing to the conversation, and neither would a pro-socialism biased piece. Unless you are Mr. Microphone (the interviewer/propagandist in the video) it would be cool if you edit your post and ditch the video and give your own answer. I would say the exact same thing to you if you posted a pro-socialism video. I'd like to hear your opinion of what socialism means.
    Last edited by Dennis Leahy; 8th February 2019 at 06:31.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    The top four countries with the Happiest Citizenry:

    1. Finland
    2. Norway
    3. Denmark
    4. Iceland

    And it surely isn't their amazing weather driving this!
    The wealth and happiness there comes from many factors such as a long history of sovereignty, strong property rights, strong human rights, free markets and high social capital.

    Since these countries introduced more "socialist" policies in the 1960s, you can observe an economic decline, a growing entitlement attitude among the population and a steady increase in taxation.

    "Nordic Nations Show How Welfare and Redistribution Weaken the Human Spirit"
    "Misconceptions about the Nordic Economies"
    "Scandinavia is no socialist Valhalla"
    "The Nordic Glass Ceiling"

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