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Thread: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    haha, Dennis, you're trying your hardest to superglue the word socialism to cooperative common sense. Now you are getting political. Dang, if only you could make the word legit, then you could develop a crowd pulling strategy that could put political socialism back in the electable corner.

    Nice try, I guess, but what you are trying to define has nothing to do with socialism. Perhaps it would be better to deconstruct the simple version first. Just have a go at finding out where the word 'social' came from. Forget the ism part for now.

    Someone tell me, seriously, where does the word "social" actually come from. Does it have a politically neutral root somewhere?
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    You could have picked a better example than penguins, Dennis. Looking into their behaviour, this is the first article I found.
    In 2012, Douglas Russell of the Natural History Museum in London, UK unearthed a paper called "Sexual Habits of the Adélie Penguin". It was labelled "not for publication".

    Fights break out as mobs of broody mothers struggle with each other to steal a chick

    The paper was the work of George Murray Levick, Scott's expedition scientist and the first person to witness an entire breeding season. He was shocked by what he saw: gangs of males engaging in homosexual sex, sexually abusing chicks, and mating with dead females. At the time, the material was judged too depraved for public consumption.
    Though it was alarming for an Edwardian Englishman, the behaviour was entirely within the realms of biological normality. The "hooligan" males Levick observed were probably sexually inexperienced and making mistakes.
    This sort of thing does happen. In recent years, fur seals have been discovered trying to have sex with penguins on at least four separate occasions, and this may also be a simple mistake.
    The other Antarctic species, the emperor penguin, is if anything even worse.

    Female emperor penguins that have lost their own brood frequently "adopt" unattended chicks. If there are none available, things get violent. Fights break out as mobs of broody mothers struggle with each other to steal a chick from another penguin family.
    Kidnappings last from a few minutes to a few days. Most end with the chick being abandoned to die in the cold. One confused penguin even kidnapped its own natural enemy, the chick of a penguin-eating bird called a skua.
    It's a by-product of their very special strategy
    These kidnappings are bizarre and brutal in equal measures, and why the females do it has been puzzling scientists for decades.
    Emperor penguins are unique among birds, in that they nest in the middle of winter. The females must go to sea to feed, leaving the males to keep their offspring warm. This causes a problem. When most birds lose sight of their eggs, they stop producing the parenting hormone prolactin, and lose interest.
    To maintain their maternal instinct during their 2-month vacation, emperor penguin mothers maintain high levels regardless. Frédéric Angelier of the French National Center for Scientific Research in Villiers en Bois wondered if this hormone might explain the kidnappings.
    To find out, Angelier and his colleagues injected birds that had lost their chicks with bromocriptine, a chemical known to suppress prolactin. As they expected, these penguins kidnapped chicks less often than control penguins that did not receive bromocriptine.
    "It's a by-product of their very special strategy," says co-author Olivier Chastel. "If you are back from the sea and there is no chick, you still have this really high hormone level and you are likely to grab a chick."

    Finally, penguins have a reputation for romance, and this too is not really deserved.
    A shortage of stones has pushed many females into "prostitution"
    Emperor penguins form long-distance relationships that endure the Antarctic winter, and this has made them the poster children of monogamy. The penguins themselves have different ideas, and regularly get "divorced". Similarly, 81% of king penguins choose a different mate every season.
    Infidelity is also commonplace. Nearly a third of female Humboldt penguins cheat on their partners.
    This cheating is sometimes driven by factors that, to us, seem shockingly mercenary.
    Adélie penguins build nests out of stones, and a shortage of stones has pushed many females into "prostitution": they mate with other males in exchange for stones. Some duplicitous females have started going through the elaborate courtship ritual to get the stones, and then running off before the male can mate. Both sexes also steal stones from their rivals' nests.
    They certainly sound exactly like the liberal elite socialists that have given ‘socialism’ it’s negative connotations over the years.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    haha, Dennis, you're trying your hardest to superglue the word socialism to cooperative common sense. Now you are getting political. Dang, if only you could make the word legit, then you could develop a crowd pulling strategy that could put political socialism back in the electable corner.

    Nice try, I guess, but what you are trying to define has nothing to do with socialism. Perhaps it would be better to deconstruct the simple version first. Just have a go at finding out where the word 'social' came from. Forget the ism part for now.

    Someone tell me, seriously, where does the word "social" actually come from. Does it have a politically neutral root somewhere?
    meh

    This feels like playing semantic games. Do you really not know what I'm talking about? (The biological drive of individuals toward group survival? The other direction of energy flow from the individual, compared to the biological drive of individuals toward individual survival.)

    I'm using the word "socialism" because the underlying principal biological drive toward group survival is the underlying principle of political socialism. You can argue against any semblance of political Socialism (where that's the topic) but let's not go off into fantasy land where animals only have a drive towards their own individual self. Use the word cooperation, or use a made-up word like "group-ism" or "we-ism" if you have to.

    I really don't want to play word games.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.

    Most people in Western society are either extremely wary of the term, or else conditioned with all the wrong ideas of big brother making it for you. There are lots of ideas in this thread which are synergistic, once one scratches beneath the surface.

    To go back to the op, I think socialism is considering that given the amount that is taken from me through taxes, I ought to get some benefit beyond the most basic infrastructure. Safeguards against corruption, an incentive towards efficiency, making it give us our money's worth, ought to all be the hallmarks of good government, right along with leaving me alone for the most part. Just paying taxes ought to be enough for there to be enough for everyone, instead we have waste and favors. The reset button was a good meme, while it lasted.
    Last edited by PurpleLama; 11th February 2019 at 23:54.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.
    ^^I agree.

    I don't get trying to shoe horn "socialism" into what your (D) talking about, just shock factor?

    I'm sure your not trying to normalize the term and get people to think of it in a positive way (common MSM tactic), are you?

    Whats wrong with Unbuntu (the translation is something like: a person is a person through their people)? I think that fits what your trying to describe a lot better & doesn't have all the baggage with it.

    Socialism is political, it doesn't exist in nature unless you re-define it; and that is the worst possible thing to do (forced linguistic drift) as it causes confusion & can be (often is) misleading.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    You would get more street cred with a link to Michael tellinger talking about ubuntu, rather than slick Willie. LOL
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    I don't think Norman is playing word games. Can you find a term more loaded with misunderstanding than "socialism"? Might be easier to coin a new term, rather than wait for all the people to die off who would rather fight you for what they think it means.
    Yes, when I write out my political thoughts, I usually avoid the poisoned word "socialism", and use "citizen-centric" to try to describe policy beneficial to the group. I think this thread underscored that it is a poisoned word with a history flooded with an immense amount of Ruling Elite think-tank nebulous, fear-generating, propaganda. A lot of time and money has been devoted to making sure that the Ruling Elite maintain their status quo of a very few controlling the many and owning literally half the wealth of the world. The word "socialism" is not able to be resurrected.

    The thread (because almost every single person answered politically) hints that most/many people think capitalism is the opposite of socialism, and more, that they believe there cannot be a political system that incorporates both (even though I listed half a dozen countries off the top of my head - including the US - that have some socialism and some capitalism.) For a few people, there may be an even larger impasse to conversation, if they are attempting to negate the very existence of group cooperative strategies in nature. Others think it means centralization of power, even though political socialism is decentralization of power and much more horizontal governance. It has been interesting, and revealing.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

    . . . . political socialism is decentralization of power and much more horizontal governance. It has been interesting, and revealing.
    You'll have the expand on that because I don't see that in the world around me, other than in the David Icke sense, where we police ourselves so the elite don't have to lift a finger, we do it for them. Yea, that's a horizontal dynamic for sure, but I certainly wouldn't put it in the plus column.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Is what is beneficial to the individual really the opposite of what is beneficial to the group?
    No. It's not the opposite, it is the opposite direction of energy flow. […]

    How are we going to be able to discuss "political socialism" intelligently if we solely focuses on the one direction of energy flow we like the best, and worse, if we pretend the other direction of energy flow doesn't exist as a natural and normal part of the species survival?
    Is what is beneficial to the individual necessarily the opposite direction of energy flow of what is beneficial to the group?

    The energy flow directed towards myself is well able to simulataneously benefit the group. It can be a win-win-situation and go in both directions.

    Directing energy to any aspect of creation can be to direct energy to the whole, depending on the quality of the energy.
    History says otherwise. The group outnumbers the individual. So the usual way to get everyone flowing in the same direction is to eliminate the non-conformers.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Wiki:

    "Originally the term "socialist" was often used interchangeably with "co-operative", "mutualist", "associationist" and "collectivist" in reference to the organization of economic enterprise socialists advocated, in contrast to the private enterprise and corporate organizational structures inherent to capitalism."

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    The thing is that independence and dependence are both extremes and illusions. Interdependence is the truth and balancing the paradox. Capitalism/free enterprise represent more of human creations on the independent side. It makes sense that western societies are more independent than asian and would lean toward that side to some degree. So, we will be a bit biased toward it , regardless of the outcomes in history showing more problems on the communist side of the fence. I suppose the control freak elites who wish to control a country prefer the ideologies that are more group oriented ( communist or whatever) since its more ideal for controlling a group. Thus, we are more fearful of allowing things to slide into socialism, collectivism, group ideologies. That is understandable, especially given the history.

    Socialism and communism can be basically redefined and written because the present and rapidly changing future are so different than when Marx, et al. were alive. I don't think anybody wants some government owning all property and all that jazz. Can't technology empower us to create social like programs without big brother controlling it (just regulations that allow it to exist and keep it in check). Instead of gov't groups voting and deciding, can't some social system helping the needy be governed by "we the people" who all have a vote by logging in and monitoring how the system operates. Or some unbiased machine deciding whats best thru its own evolution of doing what works best. I guess we have to wait and see how all this AI stuff pans out.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Calling taxes "stealing" is quite simple minded (btw tax on everything annoys me too). The design of the system is largely arbitrary and very corrupt. When I used to listen to this old guy tell me the billionaires earned their money fair and square I wanted to laugh my head off. Cuz its not stealing when u use a corrupt system and do everything you can to be greedy and stomp out others with shady or other immoral actions that are legal. lol So, everything you earn is yours and millions of consumers who made them rich and are cogs in the wheel are irrelevant? Sorry, but balance means that there is pay back to the public. BTW, The wealthy help to create jobs, but consumers create jobs thru demand. Just wanted to mention cuz i get bored of that silly biased argument as well.

    The only solution is technological progress that creates abundance enough that basic needs is so easy to supply everyone.

    We are evolving into higher orders of integration and interconnectivity. Looking back to history for wisdom will become more irrelevant and misleading. People gave some examples of observing nature. I can argue that our world is not the natural world at all in the grand scheme of things. I hope this isnt misunderstood as its hard for me to explain. In other words, we can't look at the animals and say survival of the fittest is how nature is. A very wise rosicrucian teacher said that the ancient mystery schools taught that later in the cycle all animals that feed off other animals will die off. If this is true, that means that "nature" of survival of the fittest and competition and food chain stuff was all temporary and not the nature of the universe, but more like the nature of experience of life in a Kali yuga or hellish type era. Our views are so narrow, we must be careful of what we assume by looking at our small experience around us, especially since we can see that the exponential change is so incredible that in 50 years we won't be in Kansas anymore. lol

    I think we need to create a new word to talk about shifting the system into something with more interconnected cooperation without having to use vague and problematic words like socialism. Such a nice sounding word that isn't specific if u look at the literal meaning (social), but it got so messed up.

    I hope that makes sense, quickly written.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    haha, Dennis, you're trying your hardest to superglue the word socialism to cooperative common sense. Now you are getting political. Dang, if only you could make the word legit, then you could develop a crowd pulling strategy that could put political socialism back in the electable corner.

    Nice try, I guess, but what you are trying to define has nothing to do with socialism. Perhaps it would be better to deconstruct the simple version first. Just have a go at finding out where the word 'social' came from. Forget the ism part for now.

    Someone tell me, seriously, where does the word "social" actually come from. Does it have a politically neutral root somewhere?
    meh

    This feels like playing semantic games. Do you really not know what I'm talking about? (The biological drive of individuals toward group survival? The other direction of energy flow from the individual, compared to the biological drive of individuals toward individual survival.)

    I'm using the word "socialism" because the underlying principal biological drive toward group survival is the underlying principle of political socialism. You can argue against any semblance of political Socialism (where that's the topic) but let's not go off into fantasy land where animals only have a drive towards their own individual self. Use the word cooperation, or use a made-up word like "group-ism" or "we-ism" if you have to.

    I really don't want to play word games.
    Good call, Dennis.

    Word games that claim to want to get to a "truth" by dissecting words to their molecular essence are not useful methods to employ in the pursuit of any truth. The Rabbit Hole is deep and is ultimately a fruitless landscape, producing only a myriad of particles that can be argued about ad infinitum - leading to obfuscation rather than comprehension.

    Better to stick to the common sense of regular discourse.

    B.
    Last edited by Fellow Aspirant; 27th February 2019 at 16:18.
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Socialism is euphemism for communism.

    The western countries (so-called capitalist countries) are ruled by the fake financial system with debt-based, interest-bearing fractional reserve banking where "economic growth" is nothing but more waste, more pollution, and more destruction of the environment.

    People get paid for non-productive bull**** work (I think it's the title of a book) while the rich get richer for doing nothing and the poor get poorer for working.

    Is communism (aka socialism) the solution? Hardly. It's the same old banking parasites who rule these communist countries. There may be no starvation from lack of work (with the exception of Khmer Rouge Cambodia and North Korea) but the state does not give you life.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    First, Semantics literally is meaning. So if you are using language, you are literally dealing with semantics.

    If you come to a point where you need to say "Lets not quibble about semantics" Then you are not using the correct words.

    Now wiki is ****: use this for word history https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=social

    late 15c., "devoted to or relating to home life;" 1560s as "living with others," from Middle French social (14c.) and directly from Latin socialis "of companionship, of allies; united, living with others; of marriage, conjugal," from socius "companion, ally," probably originally "follower," from PIE *sokw-yo-, suffixed form of root *sekw- (1) "to follow." Compare Old English secg, Old Norse seggr "companion," which seem to have been formed on the same notion). Related: Socially.

    Sense of "characterized by friendliness or geniality" is from 1660s. Meaning "living or liking to live with others; companionable, disposed to friendly intercourse" is from 1720s. Meaning "of or pertaining to society as a natural condition of human life" first attested 1695, in Locke. Sense of "pertaining to fashionable society" is from 1873.

    Social climber is from 1893; social work is 1890; social worker 1886. Social drinking first attested 1807. Social studies as an inclusive term for history, geography, economics, etc., is attested from 1916. Social security "system of state support for needy citizens" is attested from 1907 (the Social Security Act was passed by U.S. Congress in 1935). Social butterfly is from 1867, in figurative reference to "flitting."

    Social contract (1763) is from translations of Rousseau. Social Darwinism attested from 1887. Social engineering attested from 1899. Social science is from 1785. In late 19c. newspapers, social evil is "prostitution." Social justice is attested by 1718; social network by 1971; social networking by 1984; social media by 2008.



    Dennis, you should take the advice of Fellow aspirant and not engage with people who are merely parrots using language. Dont say "lets not quibble over semantics" because that is PRECISELY what this thread is doing about the word socialism. THis entire thread is about quibbling over semantics.

    Your trouble is you are quibbling over semantics with people who use language not with people who understand language.

    THink of it this way: You are talking about car stuff with people who have only ever driven a car, not changed oil or flat tire even. In fact, it is worse than that; You are talking car stuff with people who have never even driven a car but merely have seen one in a magazine one time.

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    I have been tempted to post in this thread several times since it appeared but have stopped because of the

    request not to use the dictionary definition. Praxis has just linked to a definition of the root word, and I find that to be the only way to get a rational workable discussion going.

    So I feel that socialism when honest consists of various attempts to create a system based on humans living together and balancing out the
    tendency of small groups of people to take over and tyrannize others based on ownership of goods and services. I think that capitalism is another way this has been done , but neither of these things has always been done honestly. Corporations and banks tend to get overly large and exert undue influence over the lives of the workers, and the definitions of those words have changed over the centuries. Fascism is a word used to describe the enforcement of law really, however if we look at the actual implementations of socialism , communism, as well as the long standing existence of brutal slavery within the so called democratic republic of the US, that people have objected to we begin to see varying degrees of fascism, and how they can turn any of these words into
    destructive tools of tryanny. The banking system and the immense leeway that it has given to various groups throughout history absolutely loves to see people arguing about this subject. Visualize if you will a workshop with various tools laid out on a table and think about how a skilled craftsman picks up a certain tool, uses it for a certain period of time and lays it down again when the task it is best suited for is completed. That is what humanity has done over and over again with it's various social and economic tools, to various extents when they made the effort to co-operate in joint survival activities. This seems to only last for short periods of time till someone comes in and takes over ownership of things, often this includes other humans, and it works best if the general populace is divided up into opposing groups, and are given labels with which to see each other as enemies. So socialism can become all sorts of things so can capitalism, appreciation of ones cultural heritage etc. Why is it that whenever certain subjects come up people start reacting as if we are about to be invaded and taken over by the opposing side? I think it is because people think that thoughts and words are immutable objects that can be extended into weapons instead of used to point to an action that needs to be carried out, then left alone so the appropriate work can be done.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Jon Rappaport is quite clear on this aspect of the subject
    The stone cold conservative socialist
    5/9/19
    by Jon Rappoport
    https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2...ive-socialist/

    "“Is he a meth goony bird? He seems to be flopping around the stage like a creature who’s lost his wings. He’s talking about VALUES, but it’s clear he’s lost those, too. Something happened to his brain somewhere along the line. Something bad. Maybe it all came from too much preaching. Talking super-simple to simpletons could cause contraction and shrinkage in both lobes. He’s running for the US senate…He’s a chunk of cardboard standing on the shoulders of cardboard, going back centuries.” (fragment from “New Conservatives and Old Conservatives,” by Jon Rappoport)

    In this piece, I’m not writing about what the conservative position should be; I’m writing about what it is most of the time. And when it comes to Welfare, the attitude is: pay the individual less, the family less, and the corporation more. Find every possible way to chisel money out of the government on behalf of corporations. And don’t worry—you’ll find many allies in elected government positions. They’re basically there to please and assist the “conservative.” Insurance companies, oil companies, construction companies, biotech, drug companies, defense contractors—they’re the real constituency. They always need more money. They always need government help. They always need Welfare to keep going. They talk about freedom and strength, but what makes them super-strong is government tax money and invented money. Whoever came up with the term “corporate welfare” wasn’t kidding around. Scratch a conservative candidate for Congress and this is what you usually find below the surface: a Welfarist. Try to find justification for corporate welfare in the Constitution. Good luck. A typical conservative may shower praise on the Constitution and the original intent of the Founders, but he somehow misses the point when it comes to shoveling huge amounts of government budget money on to corporate tables. To put it another way, he wants to be known as a pure priest of Original Intent, but he’s actually a whore. And, to put a cherry on the cake, all his life he’s assumed bull**** is the only reliable product in the marketplace. Maybe that’s why he wears such a big grin in public. Maybe that’s why his clothes and his hair and his tone of voice keep screaming FAKE.

    A long time ago, I interviewed a “conservative politician” off the record. When the subject turned to re-election, he said, “Of course I know who the major companies are in my district. You can’t get elected unless you’re on their side. They want government money for new pet projects. They expect you to get it for them. Actually, this creates jobs. I’m a bleeding heart for companies and their workers. I want to get them more money, no matter what tricks I have to pull off…”

    Imagine, I don’t know, 20 thousand politicians, at various levels of government, operating in this way across the whole country. Do you think this comes pretty close to government owning the means of production—in other words, socialism?

    “Hi, I’m a stone cold conservative socialist. Let me explain. I think you’ll be on my side when you understand the realities of the situation…”

    What I’m describing in this article is a major reason big government is such a convoluted mess. It’s a Rube Goldberg machine, contradicting itself and turning forward and backwards at the same time. Almost all elected officials are socialists of one brand or another, no matter what they profess. Speaking of messes, many people remember Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld’s famous statement about the “unaccounted for” trillions of dollars in Pentagon bookkeeping accounts. Without going into the deeper darker implications of that remark, it illustrates an (intentionally) hopeless tangle of hundreds of separate accounting government money records. This is what you’d expect from a behemoth dedicated to unconstitutional spending from one end of the sky to the other…

    What about governments’ contracts with biotech giants like Monsanto/Bayer? How much government money has flowed into the coffers of those toxic outfits? That’s tax money plus money invented out of thin air. You might think a conservative politician would staunchly oppose this practice, but in most cases you would be wrong. No, gigantic government $$ landing in corporations’ laps is characterized as being “in line with the basic principles of Constitutional government.” After all, “the business of America is business.”

    One of the central tenets of conservatism is preservation of property rights. How does EXPANDING THE PROPERTY of major corporations, through filling their coffers with government money and more money, have anything to do with property rights? How is the right to Pork a conservative notion, in any traditional sense?

    When a so-called conservative pol gets up on his hand legs and speaks in favor of one of the Globalist trade treaties, like GATT or NAFTA, he is essentially handing major corporations billions of dollars in tariffs THAT DON’T HAVE TO BE PAID. What article or amendment of the Constitution is that in line with? Granted, the whole subject of international trade is complex and fraught with interventionist tactics from the get-go—but tariffs on imported goods go a long way toward protecting free and open competition among domestic companies. Globalism picks and chooses favored corporations, to the gross detriment of smaller businesses.

    In case some readers think this article isn’t delving deeply enough into conspiracies (in that case, see my articles on Antony Sutton and Gary Allen), consider the vast culture that has been created around fake conservatives, who rake in votes through appearing to be “traditionalists.” Accepting the honesty of such politicians, with all their phony tells, is on the level of believing in a Sunday TV preacher who is spouting clichés at six mile a minute, while “raising cash for God.” How is a nation being engineered to include millions of these believers? What chemicals, education system, “family values” are being launched at their minds, on a continuing basis? Why aren’t “conservative” pols laughed out of court? (Of course, the political Left is no better; I consider it worse, and I’ve written many words on the subject.) For every monumental con game to succeed, you need true believers; and the growth and nurturing of such suckers in turn requires a culture of programming that can successfully reduce all issues to super-literal and super-simple thoughts.

    Now that’s a covert op worthy of the name.

    Addendum: An example of who and what I’m talking about, on the Left, would be Joe Biden. Earlier in his political career, as a US senator, he was an extremely sharp talker on matters of foreign policy. Perhaps because of a life-threatening brain aneurysm, and two surgeries, he changed. By the time he became vice-president under Obama, the press considered him a kind of loose-talking clown, a joke. He seemed “off.” But then, the media reshaped him as a “competent politician.” The creepy-Joe scandal aside, Biden has actually turned into a cliché machine. Who can believe that what’s coming out of his mouth should be taken seriously? Apparently, many brainwashed people…"

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