+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: The illusion of "self" vs The assertion of "self" / entity

  1. Link to Post #1
    UK Avalon Member Clear Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    8th September 2015
    Age
    48
    Posts
    681
    Thanks
    1,239
    Thanked 3,451 times in 630 posts

    Default The illusion of "self" vs The assertion of "self" / entity

    Ah, so in an attempt to shine-a-light (so to say) on the difference between Eastern and Western concepts (very generally) of what the "self" is I'm going to quote a passage from a Buddhist source and a passage from the Law-of-One (channeled material) ... But why you may ask ?

    Well, perhaps given the current state of our Planet, I don't think it is unheard of for "people" to begin questioning "who they are", "where we are we going", "what seems to be happening" ?

    Now to the Western Mind, I'd say the "self" is a given, it's like the underlying substance of our Cultures and Society ... we each are individual Entities, it's a wholly unquestioned assumption, it's at least as "real" as the truth that "Day follows Night" eh ?

    OK, but why the "Law of One" ? Well, because it seems to be a well regarded Tradition that many "Spiritual Folks" are kind of using as their "Bible" (or Religious Scripture), at least, this is, from reading through these Avalon forums with regards to the daily "battles" of who is telling the truth and who is merely a Pretender, or a Fantasist, a self-proclaimed Guru or a Cult Leader etc etc

    The Law of One Search Results for ‘nirvana’
    Quote 18.5 ▶ Questioner: Thank you. I have a question here from Jim that I will read verbatim: “Much of the mystic tradition of seeking on Earth holds that belief that the individual self must be erased or obliterated and the material world ignored for an entity to reach ‘nirvana,’ as it’s called, or enlightenment. What is the proper role of the individual self and its worldly activities in aiding an entity to grow more into the Law of One?”

    Ra: I am Ra. The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

    The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

    The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

    All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

    It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.
    In reading the Law-Of-One quote, do you see the implicit assertion that there is an Entity that can "progress" if it wants to ? Perhaps this is why the Law-of-One seems to be so popular because it dovetails very easily with Western Psychology / Philosophy ?

    Aren't all of us Westerners educated (conditioned) to accept the reality of the "self" from a very early age ?

    . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

    So now to an Eastern perspective :

    Emptying out Misconceptions – Making sense of Madhyamaka
    Quote Early Buddhism centered around the radical idea that at the core of the person there is no fixed, eternal self. In a time and place where the culture orbited around the believe that atman – a true self was the answer to the spiritual journey, the Buddha’s teaching suggested that clinging to fixed concepts of self is actually the driving force behind dissatisfaction.

    Instead, the world as we know it is entirely relational, made up of interrelated parts. No person exists apart from all the factors that have made up that person, including the components of the individual, the input from others, and the dependance on others to live and thrive. We are all made up of each other in a network of interdependence. We are made up of a matrix of causes, conditions. Even our thoughts did not originate from an independent space, they arise from a culture, dependent on a language and learned patterns. Recognizing this interrelatedness is a key to the wakefulness, knowledge and love that is possible.

    From the perspective of the great perfection teachings of Buddhism, discovering our “true self,” could be supplanted by the more present moment goal of finding our “true state,” our a way of being that is not constructed or contrived, but is naturally present. Instead of looking for “true self,” we could look for the “natural state.”
    How different eh ? But does it feel more or less Realistic to you ? Are our "problems" of our own making with our Culture's seeming obsession with the "self" (I, me and mine) ?

    . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

    Please understand I'm not trying to start a fight, point the finger, assign blame or tell you what to believe and who not to listen to ... LOL

    If anything I've put this mini-essay together as like a "record" (of how things stand) so that I can come back to it in say a years time and see whether or not our World has got more or less Sane / Insane, more or less Unified / Fractured, more or less United / Polarised etc etc

    Just my two-cents !!!


  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Clear Light For This Post:

    Dennis Leahy (11th February 2019), greybeard (10th February 2019), Sojourner (16th February 2019), Zampano (11th February 2019)

  3. Link to Post #2
    Bhutan Avalon Member enigma3's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st July 2016
    Posts
    306
    Thanks
    2,604
    Thanked 1,807 times in 293 posts

    Default Re: The illusion of "self" vs The assertion of "self" / entity

    The book "Perfect Brilliant Stillness" by David Carse is your friend. Or perhaps a good book on Dzogchen. The self is a mental construct that appears in the unawakened state. Upon full awakening the self is seen clearly as a construct that is no longer needed, so it falls away.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to enigma3 For This Post:

    Clear Light (11th February 2019), Dennis Leahy (11th February 2019), greybeard (10th February 2019)

  5. Link to Post #3
    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
    Join Date
    11th January 2011
    Location
    Oregon, USA
    Posts
    1,126
    Thanks
    7,966
    Thanked 5,912 times in 1,028 posts

    Default Re: The illusion of "self" vs The assertion of "self" / entity

    Quote Posted by Clear Light (here)
    Ah, so in an attempt to shine-a-light (so to say) on the difference between Eastern and Western concepts (very generally) of what the "self" is I'm going to quote a passage from a Buddhist source and a passage from the Law-of-One (channeled material) ... But why you may ask ?



    The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

    All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

    It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

    Emptying out Misconceptions – Making sense of Madhyamaka
    Quote Early Buddhism centered around the radical idea that at the core of the person there is no fixed, eternal self. In a time and place where the culture orbited around the believe that atman – a true self was the answer to the spiritual journey, the Buddha’s teaching suggested that clinging to fixed concepts of self is actually the driving force behind dissatisfaction.

    Instead, the world as we know it is entirely relational, made up of interrelated parts. No person exists apart from all the factors that have made up that person, including the components of the individual, the input from others, and the dependance on others to live and thrive. We are all made up of each other in a network of interdependence. We are made up of a matrix of causes, conditions. Even our thoughts did not originate from an independent space, they arise from a culture, dependent on a language and learned patterns. Recognizing this interrelatedness is a key to the wakefulness, knowledge and love that is possible.

    From the perspective of the great perfection teachings of Buddhism, discovering our “true self,” could be supplanted by the more present moment goal of finding our “true state,” our a way of being that is not constructed or contrived, but is naturally present. Instead of looking for “true self,” we could look for the “natural state.”
    How different eh ? But does it feel more or less Realistic to you ? Are our "problems" of our own making with our Culture's seeming obsession with the "self" (I, me and mine) ?

    . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

    Please understand I'm not trying to start a fight, point the finger, assign blame or tell you what to believe and who not to listen to ... LOL

    If anything I've put this mini-essay together as like a "record" (of how things stand) so that I can come back to it in say a years time and see whether or not our World has got more or less Sane / Insane, more or less Unified / Fractured, more or less United / Polarised etc etc

    Just my two-cents !!!

    [/QUOTE]


    My view tends towards the second excerpt in your OP. I deleted anything in the Law of One quote which I felt had either no relevance to your point, or was part of the distortion coming from the channeling modality. I find it interesting that this excerpt points out the inevitable introduction of distortions in order help "apparent entities", (my attempt to convey the relative truth of individuality within the greater truth of what is), move to a state of lesser distortion.


    I found no need to remove any of the second quote because the only distorted concept I see conveyed in it is the idea of a "natural state", I think that that wording is close to the real truth, but the word state is still tied to concepts which are all outside of the truth. The conceptual mind gets simplified by falling away till it is no longer needed.

    I find your last remark to be very interesting because you say that you want to create a record to come back to. I would call that a snapshot of understanding. That snapshot has a timestamp, and because I have run into a lot of pieces of the law of one material my timestamp for that is rather fuzzy. But I think it was delivered over a period of decades, through channeling, so there is a wide variance of clarity/distortion in that material.


    The Buddhism quote seems to be a distillation of things handed down over centuries. The thing about that is that there were practices of direct contact with the truth left in eastern cultures that have an enormous variety to them , but they all seem to produce the same final result, a view without a viewer(this doesn't seem to happen that often though) .


    Cultures seem to be founded on the idea of a right view, coming from some version of a perfect viewer.

    On the governance side there is always a king,queen, or emperor, a very human ruler. On the religious side there is usually a human teacher turned into a lord, God, or Goddess, in order to serve as a bridge between the human culture and it's ultimate source.

    The actual uses of these things down through history produce all sorts of results including wars, genocides, wonders of the world, medical breakthroughs, and the relative gifts of sciences. The higher the purity of understanding of the source of the apparent self the better the human individuals lives seem to be. So I consider this thread as I understand it to be a good tool. I think a consideration of the cultures and groups that these ideas are showing up in has some value as well perhaps another thread?


    John
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to johnf For This Post:

    Clear Light (11th February 2019), Dennis Leahy (11th February 2019), greybeard (10th February 2019), Sojourner (16th February 2019)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Bhutan Avalon Member enigma3's Avatar
    Join Date
    1st July 2016
    Posts
    306
    Thanks
    2,604
    Thanked 1,807 times in 293 posts

    Default Re: The illusion of "self" vs The assertion of "self" / entity

    A little more clarification. The self, or ego, is real. It exists in duality. As long as non-duality remains in the unconscious, or hidden, the self persists. It is the brain's attempt to make sense of what is seen and defend the body if necessary. As soon as non-duality becomes conscious the self is seen in its true nature. Now, however, from the perceptual perch that comes with non-duality infusing duality, the self (or ego) is seen instantly as no longer needed. So it simply falls away like an old snake skin.

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to enigma3 For This Post:

    Clear Light (11th February 2019), Dennis Leahy (11th February 2019), Sojourner (16th February 2019), Valerie Villars (13th February 2019)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts