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Thread: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

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    Default 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Davos 2019
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...res-capitalism

    Rutger Bregman had not really intended to stick it to the global elite. He never meant to have a pop at the idea that inequality could be solved by philanthropy or inviting Bono to Davos. But when the Dutch historian decided to go off-piste at the World Economic Forum and tell the assembled billionaires they should stop avoiding paying tax, he became an overnight social media sensation.

    “It’s been a crazy week and just for stating the obvious,” said Bregman, when asked about a panel discussion at the WEF last month in which he said the issue was “taxes, taxes, taxes, and all the rest is bull**** in my opinion”.

    Bregman had not been to Davos before. He was invited on the basis of the book Utopia for Realists, which argued for a basic income and a shorter working week, ideas that have been taken up by some of the Silicon Valley billionaires who show up for the annual event in the Swiss Alps.

    But he grew more irritated as the week wore on. Bregman gave a speech to a dinner of technology chief executives and then spoke at one of Davos’s private sessions, off limits to journalists. There he was surprised and maddened by the pushback when he mentioned tax. “One American looked at me as if I was from another planet,” he said.

    As a result, Bregman decided to change his plan for a panel on inequality organised by Time magazine on the final morning of Davos. “I went to my hotel room and memorised what I wanted to say by heart,” he said.

    “I more or less ignored the question asked by the moderator and gave my speech instead. It was mainly to ease my own conscience: someone has to say what needs to be said.”

    What Bregman said, put simply, was the Davos emperors have no clothes. They talk a lot about how something must be done about inequality and the need to address social unrest, but cavil at the idea they might be a big part of the problem.

    He told his audience that people in Davos talked about participation, justice, equality and transparency, but “nobody raises the issue of tax avoidance and the rich not paying their share. It is like going to a firefighters’ conference and not talking about water.”

    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 21st February 2019 at 18:29. Reason: Fix link

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    For people interested, here’s the full video.


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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    And when everbody pays taxes and the state's redistribution isn't to his liking, his next big hit is gonna be, "nobody here talks about fair and smart redistribution, come on, it's so obvious, just do it!"

    Let me tell you something really obvious. Taxation is theft, statism is doomed to fail. Humans shouldn't govern one another, because they cannot handle this power, whether it's because of corruption or because of incompetence. Humans should respect each other's sovereignty, abolish taxes, abolish the state and only enter into contracts voluntarily, whether it's a contract with an individual or with a group. Nobody should have to be forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.

    Complaining about tax avoidance is a cheap and easy way to get some popularity. Humans tend to forget the lessons of history and instead cling to a hope of a benevolent state with wise and pious leaders at the top. In reality, giving more power to the state is a time-tested way to fuel society's downfall.

    Of course most super-rich are immoral and the system is skewed in their favor. But instead of arguing for them to join the servitude of the masses, and then hoping for the state to be just and fair with everybody, simply alleviate the masses from their servitude. No taxes.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)

    Let me tell you something really obvious. Taxation is theft, statism is doomed to fail. Humans shouldn't govern one another, because they cannot handle this power, whether it's because of corruption or because of incompetence. Humans should respect each other's sovereignty, abolish taxes, abolish the state and only enter into contracts voluntarily, whether it's a contract with an individual or with a group. Nobody should have to be forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.
    From another point of view: Free people don't chose who will rule them, they rule themselves.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by latte (here)
    Quote Posted by christian (here)

    Let me tell you something really obvious. Taxation is theft, statism is doomed to fail. Humans shouldn't govern one another, because they cannot handle this power, whether it's because of corruption or because of incompetence. Humans should respect each other's sovereignty, abolish taxes, abolish the state and only enter into contracts voluntarily, whether it's a contract with an individual or with a group. Nobody should have to be forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.
    From another point of view: Free people don't chose who will rule them, they rule themselves.
    yep and its so obvious kudos to you 2 for telling the truth in its simplicity. No taxes no government

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    .
    Of course most super-rich are immoral and the system is skewed in their favor......
    How about the super-poor? Are they just poor because of a lack of character?
    Is poverty perhaps, as Margaret Thatcher once said, a personality defect?
    Or is poverty simply a lack of cash - caused by bad luck or bad health.

    Quote Humans should respect each other’s sovereignty, abolish taxes, abolish the state and only enter into contracts voluntarily, whether it’s a contract with an individual or with a group. Nobody should have to be forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.
    I see you have aclear idea about how society should be and I respect that.

    However, there are more ways to a prosperous society. Perhaps not your choice of society, but surely one without poverty.

    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 21st February 2019 at 22:17. Reason: Spelling

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Did you see his Fox news interview (that apparently never aired on Fox - and if you see it you understand why). It was pretty great actually.




    ... just an aside ... carry on ...
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    “nobody raises the issue of tax avoidance and the rich not paying their share. It is like going to a firefighters’ conference and not talking about water.”

    Can we invite Mr Rutger Bergman on avalon forum?

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    "Poverty is not a lack of character, poverty is a lack of cash"
    Finally a realistic idea, super simple. I cant even remember when I did have the idea that poverty is a lack of character. BUT the big question is how do we make our government implement this?

    ok will tell my friends about it, do you think this super simple idea will work.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    My ideas about poverty changed after I read the Michael Teachings.
    It's a huge subject, and I had more than one AHA! moment when studying them.
    But the one about poverty was significant.
    The premise is that poverty is not confined to the disadvantaged, the unskilled, the indifferent, the undeserving.
    But Old Souls who have seen through all the illusions that our culture creates about the value of success, status, prestige, etc. often live in poverty simply because they don't care about mainstream values, and prefer to live a simple, quiet life, undistracted by disingenuous worldly values.
    Which can make it all the more erroneous to judge anyone by their "standard of living".
    Last edited by onawah; 22nd February 2019 at 04:51.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    My ideas about poverty changed after I read the Michael Teachings.
    It's a huge subject, and I had more than one AHA! moment when studying them.
    But the one about poverty was significant.
    The premise is that poverty is not confined to the disadvantaged, the unskilled, the indifferent, the undeserving.
    But Old Souls who have seen through all the illusions that our culture creates about the value of success, status, prestige, etc. often live in poverty simply because they don't care about mainstream values, and prefer to live a simple, quiet life, undistracted by disingenuous worldly values.
    Which can make it all the more erroneous to judge anyone by their "standard of living".
    One slowly nods, stop over for tea.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Did you see his Fox news interview (that apparently never aired on Fox - and if you see it you understand why). It was pretty great actually.




    ... just an aside ... carry on ...
    Of course I saw that one. It got viral on the Internet the moment it was posted.
    Bregman was interviewed about it on Dutch TV yesterday.
    Thanks for posting it for me. I perhaps would not have dared to do so.

    Even starting this thread felt tricky, since I know that many US members are allergic to anything to do with government. And I can understand their sense of FREEDOM, knowing where they’re coming from.

    However, being FREE from having a stressful life, struggling to survive day by day, will give not only the poor a sense of FREEDOM, but the ones that are more fortunate, an opportunity to work less hard (if they want) , to have time to fulfill their “Hart’s desire” - a hobby, a study, being home for the kids more, or to travel, whatever will make them happy..... (= FREEDOM)

    Those will be the advantages of a universal Basic Income.

    But.... oh la la....... government will be needed, as well as taxing the super rich.

    Scary, scary
    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 22nd February 2019 at 14:35. Reason: Spelling

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    My ideas about poverty changed after I read the Michael Teachings.
    It's a huge subject, and I had more than one AHA! moment when studying them.
    But the one about poverty was significant.
    The premise is that poverty is not confined to the disadvantaged, the unskilled, the indifferent, the undeserving.
    But Old Souls who have seen through all the illusions that our culture creates about the value of success, status, prestige, etc. often live in poverty simply because they don't care about mainstream values, and prefer to live a simple, quiet life, undistracted by disingenuous worldly values.
    Which can make it all the more erroneous to judge anyone by their "standard of living".
    One slowly nods, stop over for tea.
    Tea without cakes then

    The luxury of self-chosen “poverty”

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    How about the super-poor? Are they just poor because of a lack of character?
    Humanity is enslaved because there are abusive elements in society and because abused humans didn't yet figure out a way to free themselves. It takes two for this tango.

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    [T]here are more ways to a prosperous society. Perhaps not your choice of society, but surely one without poverty.
    There are so many ways. I'm happy to let all of them exist, I only ask for one thing: don't force me to be a wheel in the machinery in whatever system you prefer, no matter how good you think it is and no matter how many people are on your side. Allow me to be a sovereign being, let me live in peace while I let you in peace. If I like what you do, I might participate, or I might go about my own ways and do things differently. Let me have my own choice about this, I let you have yours.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    I paid taxes all my life. At the age of 75, I am collecting a modest social security income that is paid for by other people's taxes. That is because my taxes have already been squandered in wars started by the USA government. (Wars that I was against.) So now what? Should I turn down my SS income because (via the government) I am taking it from others against their will? As do many my age, I feel that I have earned it.

    Years ago when driving down a mountain road in Colorado, my car's steering wheel actually came off in my hands. It was quite a feeling! Yet I have realized that it is the same for 'our' USA government. The wheel came off years ago and we are still careening down the mountainside. The ballot box is broken.
    - Warren Light

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    I would hardly call living in poverty a luxury, but living with a clear conscience can be worth the sacrifice, and can perhaps afford one an opportunity to focus on more important things than material wealth.
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)

    Tea without cakes then

    The luxury of self-chosen “poverty”
    Last edited by onawah; 22nd February 2019 at 15:14.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by wnlight (here)
    I paid taxes all my life. At the age of 75, I am collecting a modest social security income that is paid for by other people's taxes. That is because my taxes have already been squandered in wars started by the USA government. (Wars that I was against.) So now what? Should I turn down my SS income because (via the government) I am taking it from others against their will? As do many my age, I feel that I have earned it.
    In Europe this principle of paying taxes for an other generation or fellow citizens that are (temporary) unable to work is called SOLIDARITY.
    As one has paid taxes(social security contribution) in a productive period in life to support others, it’s completely right to benefit from it later.
    One doesn’t have to thank anybody for it, which means FREEDOM.

    In a society without taxes or government one has to choose between charity (from friends or family), or else starvation, thus losing one’s independency or else one’s dignity, which means LESS FREEDOM

    I think the concept of FREEDOM is relative.

    -

    “But freedom is not absolute. It is a relative and subjective concept. Freedom cannot be measured, the degree to which a person is or is not free can only be determined through comparison and that comparison is completely subjective”.

    https://www.bankableinsight.com/free...n-liberty.html

    -
    Last edited by Deux Corbeaux; 22nd February 2019 at 22:41. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    And when everbody pays taxes and the state's redistribution isn't to his liking, his next big hit is gonna be, "nobody here talks about fair and smart redistribution, come on, it's so obvious, just do it!"

    Let me tell you something really obvious. Taxation is theft, statism is doomed to fail. Humans shouldn't govern one another, because they cannot handle this power, whether it's because of corruption or because of incompetence. Humans should respect each other's sovereignty, abolish taxes, abolish the state and only enter into contracts voluntarily, whether it's a contract with an individual or with a group. Nobody should have to be forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.

    Complaining about tax avoidance is a cheap and easy way to get some popularity. Humans tend to forget the lessons of history and instead cling to a hope of a benevolent state with wise and pious leaders at the top. In reality, giving more power to the state is a time-tested way to fuel society's downfall.

    Of course most super-rich are immoral and the system is skewed in their favor. But instead of arguing for them to join the servitude of the masses, and then hoping for the state to be just and fair with everybody, simply alleviate the masses from their servitude. No taxes.
    Taxes are not theft, they are ownership. If you have the ability to levy a tax on something, it implicitly means that you have ownership of that thing.

    While I appreciate your sentiments on statism and can definitely see where you come from as an anarchist at heart, anarchism is for adults and we have a planet of children.

    What the modern anarchist fails to consider is when someone has a different world view entirely.

    The mongol Empire was nomadic based one. They had disdain for all settled people and saw them as no more than animals to used as such.
    Had it not been for Chinese advisers to Temujin telling him he could herd people and cultivate them as a resource, they probably would have retained much of their nomadic ways destroying and returning to pasture most if not all cities they found.

    No anarchist commune would have withstood the Khanate and the Great Khans. Hell even organized civilizations could not stop the Khans expansion.


    What states are is simply an evolution of the technology of organization. One day maybe humans will be evolved enough to carry a constitution internally(anarchism) and be a state of one( anarchy means no rulers not no rules), but until that happens we needs states to be able to deal with planetary level problems.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Why would anyone want to save capitalism? It's awful.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by bogdan9310 (here)
    Why would anyone want to save capitalism? It's awful.
    Hi bogdan. The name of the thread came from the article, of which the link is posted in the OP.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...res-capitalism

    Here’s the quote to see the context in which that “saving capitalism” was mentioned.

    Quote As a historian, Bregman noted the most successful period for capitalism occurred in the years after the second world war, when the top rate of tax in the US was above 90%.

    “This is about saving capitalism,” he said. “Most innovation has come about through government spending. During the golden age period [after the second world war], there were way higher taxes on wealth, property, inheritance and top incomes. That’s what we need today if we are going to tame this beast called capitalism.”

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