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Thread: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Christian, it would be one thing if there was economic equality and distribution of land as a starting point - then the theoretical idea of no taxation might work. But, when just a handful of people own nearly everything, including the land and resources necessary for the vast vast majority to even survive, then declaring "no taxes!" would be wonderful for the handful of people that own the world, and a giant, miserable die-off of most of humanity, and a living hell for those who manage to survive. Right now, the reality is like the end of the game of 'Monopoly', where one guy has all the hotels on all of his properties and owns the utilities... and has a stack of 'get out of jail free' cards. Everyone else will lose, there is no question. It's a pretty bad time to defend the trillionaires' and multi-billionaires' freedom to hoard.

    The hardest working people I have ever met in my life are all "working poor", and have no chance of ever becoming even economically stable (all are a single tragedy away from devastation.) The spike in homelessness has been shown to be most frequently from medical bills destroying them financially.


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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    When looking at this problem, one must not forget to thoroughly scrutinize the world bankers, who by manipulating their control of the stock market computerized system of quickly manipulating stock to their advantage, quick sell-offs and cheaper buy backs, thereby owning the controlling interest of vast numbers of corporations, being managed under a new world order agenda which is also genocidal, where war is big business for the bankers and puppet rulers of nations they control, where THINK TANKS plot their every move, where their system of lending $1 and then creating $10 out of thin air ad infinitum thereby creating inflation faster than people can earn, where too much vacuous empty cash is available to purchase products which do not yet exist, we then have INFLATION. TOO MANY LOANS and not enough earnings to repay them happen. When all the income is consumed by Land Taxes, Income Taxes, and other taxes, utilities, food, etc., those things which would keep the economy going stay UNPURCHASED BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE NO MONEY LEFT TO DO SO. Eventually there is a depression which even government deficits cannot hide. The very rich ride all this out. The unorganized, ignorant poor suffer and die (which is the plan). IS THIS YOUR CAPITALISM 0R DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE IN MIND??? Then get rid of fractional banking and world bankers. Get rid of government regulations which forbid people to build small homes and have somewhere of their own to put them. No one needs a building monstrosity to raise a family and then rattle around in it when they are old and alone. GET REAL!

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by amor (here)
    When looking at this problem, one must not forget to thoroughly scrutinize the world bankers, who by manipulating their control of the stock market computerized system of quickly manipulating stock to their advantage, quick sell-offs and cheaper buy backs, thereby owning the controlling interest of vast numbers of corporations, being managed under a new world order agenda which is also genocidal, where war is big business for the bankers and puppet rulers of nations they control, where THINK TANKS plot their every move, where their system of lending $1 and then creating $10 out of thin air ad infinitum thereby creating inflation faster than people can earn, where too much vacuous empty cash is available to purchase products which do not yet exist, we then have INFLATION. TOO MANY LOANS and not enough earnings to repay them happen. When all the income is consumed by Land Taxes, Income Taxes, and other taxes, utilities, food, etc., those things which would keep the economy going stay UNPURCHASED BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE NO MONEY LEFT TO DO SO. Eventually there is a depression which even government deficits cannot hide. The very rich ride all this out. The unorganized, ignorant poor suffer and die (which is the plan). IS THIS YOUR CAPITALISM 0R DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE IN MIND??? Then get rid of fractional banking and world bankers. Get rid of government regulations which forbid people to build small homes and have somewhere of their own to put them. No one needs a building monstrosity to raise a family and then rattle around in it when they are old and alone. GET REAL!
    I may add. Give the land and all the natural resources back to the people and train them how to make a living out of it. We actually have the first in the Philippines its called land reform. But not the second so its a fiasco.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_r...he_Philippines

    http://www.dar.gov.ph/ra-6657-what-i...reform-program

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    distribution of wealth, shuffling it around, is what we would all decide to do to make lives less horrendous if we had that power...
    so...
    we'd be taxing , given the power to do so..
    no?

    is it taxation that is undesirable or is it the people who misuse it , those who govern , that need to have that power ripped from their hands?

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    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Taxes are not theft, they are ownership. If you have the ability to levy a tax on something, it implicitly means that you have ownership of that thing.
    So the state takes from me whatever it wants, because it basically already owns what I have?

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    [A]narchism is for adults and we have a planet of children.
    How could these children then successfully wield the level of power that is present in a state?

    Exactly because humanity is immature, statism is dangerous. Anarchy means decentralization of power. It means accountability.

    Statism means centralization of power and secrecy.

    Which one is more dangerous in a world full of immature and irresponsible people?

    Remember, the most psychopathic elements in society are the ones most attracted to get into positions of power.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Christian, it would be one thing if there was economic equality and distribution of land as a starting point - then the theoretical idea of no taxation might work. But, when just a handful of people own nearly everything, including the land and resources necessary for the vast vast majority to even survive, then declaring "no taxes!" would be wonderful for the handful of people that own the world, and a giant, miserable die-off of most of humanity, and a living hell for those who manage to survive.
    You're 100% on-point. I call this the dilemma of property. Declaring sovereign property is an advancement in civilization, it makes everybody equal partners. But current distribution of wealth can't be a starting point for that, because it's very much based on criminal actions. Therefore, if you really want to decentralize authority and abolish taxes, you have to at the same time have court proceedings, carried out in a democratic way, by the people, to redistribute from the criminals to the ones who have been abused. This is about one of the biggest challenges I could think of for humanity, but it's a necessary step to establish a peaceful and just society. I don't know if it can be done, but it must be done if we wanna evolve.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by snoman (here)
    distribution of wealth, shuffling it around, is what we would all decide to do to make lives less horrendous if we had that power...
    so...
    we'd be taxing , given the power to do so..
    no?

    is it taxation that is undesirable or is it the people who misuse it , those who govern , that need to have that power ripped from their hands?


    Thanks for the reminder we are again barking at the wrong tree.

    The problem behind the problems is; there is this small portion of earth humans who have mutated into something akin to cancer cells in the human body. This mutated humans are now destroying the harmony of the earth body. The other problem is: that the rest is allowing them to. At least at the moment.

    Truth is if we can only get that power from their hands we will be back to our ourselves soon.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Those will be the advantages of a universal Basic Income.
    But.... oh la la....... government will be needed, as well as taxing the super rich.
    We do need to tax the super rich. And yes, government will be needed -- to squander all the increased revenue so that said universal basic income is a pittance of what was promised.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Those will be the advantages of a universal Basic Income.
    But.... oh la la....... government will be needed, as well as taxing the super rich.
    We do need to tax the super rich. And yes, government will be needed -- to squander all the increased revenue so that said universal basic income is a pittance of what was promised.
    government is an scary word, perhaps leadership will do and taxation should also be replace with voluntary contribution.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    I am opposed to taxation. It is a form of theft and it impoverishes more people than we realise. It also is a motivating factor for really rich people to expatriate their assets to the detriment of the country. As for redistributing wealth equally, that is just plain communism and we've seen glorious examples of communism throughout history - Mao, Stalin, Lenin etc. Their kill count is higher than Hitler's if you consider that a big part of Hitler's kill count was due to war rather than mass murdering his own citizens, most of whom seemed to adore him.
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Taxes are not theft, they are ownership. If you have the ability to levy a tax on something, it implicitly means that you have ownership of that thing.
    So the state takes from me whatever it wants, because it basically already owns what I have?

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    [A]narchism is for adults and we have a planet of children.
    How could these children then successfully wield the level of power that is present in a state?

    Exactly because humanity is immature, statism is dangerous. Anarchy means decentralization of power. It means accountability.

    Statism means centralization of power and secrecy.

    Which one is more dangerous in a world full of immature and irresponsible people?

    Remember, the most psychopathic elements in society are the ones most attracted to get into positions of power.
    I dont think you understood what I was saying.



    The state doesnt take from you, it owns you. It owns your person, it owns your labor, it owns you entirely. You can not take something from yourself.
    It is taking nothing from you but rather it owns you through and through.


    The government then rents you to corporations, or more precisely it rents your time to the corporation. In return, the prostitute(i.e. me and you and all other owned beings by states) gets paid for their time, called Salary or wages, but the pimp, government, takes their cut, taxes.

    If you can not freely sell your labor to someone without the government getting involved then you dont actually own your labor.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    Taxes are not theft, they are ownership. If you have the ability to levy a tax on something, it implicitly means that you have ownership of that thing.
    So the state takes from me whatever it wants, because it basically already owns what I have?
    I dont think you understood what I was saying.

    The state doesnt take from you, it owns you.
    That's exactly how I understood you. I just asked because I thought your take on taxation was at odds with you prefering the state over self-ownership, a private law society, so I wondered if I understood you correctly.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    I would hardly call living in poverty a luxury, but living with a clear conscience can be worth the sacrifice, and can perhaps afford one an opportunity to focus on more important things than material wealth.
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)

    Tea without cakes then

    The luxury of self-chosen “poverty”
    Also, not everyone considers the material as wealth. My BF’s Oma says knowledge is wealth because it’s the only thing that survives war.
    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Rachel (here)
    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    I would hardly call living in poverty a luxury, but living with a clear conscience can be worth the sacrifice, and can perhaps afford one an opportunity to focus on more important things than material wealth.
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)

    Tea without cakes then

    The luxury of self-chosen “poverty”
    Also, not everyone considers the material as wealth. My BF’s Oma says knowledge is wealth because it’s the only thing that survives war.
    I agree with Oma.
    Unfortunately when one is starving, one can’t eat knowledge.
    One has to be at least an advanced yogi to survive I’m afraid.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Quote Posted by Rachel (here)
    Quote Posted by onawah (here)
    I would hardly call living in poverty a luxury, but living with a clear conscience can be worth the sacrifice, and can perhaps afford one an opportunity to focus on more important things than material wealth.
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)

    Tea without cakes then

    The luxury of self-chosen “poverty”
    Also, not everyone considers the material as wealth. My BF’s Oma says knowledge is wealth because it’s the only thing that survives war.
    I agree with Oma.
    Unfortunately when one is starving, one can’t eat knowledge.
    One has to be at least an advanced yogi to survive I’m afraid.
    True! I was thinking of why some are more vulnerable to poverty. Off topic now that I look at it again, apologies, Deux.
    Never give up on your silly, silly dreams.

    You mustn't be afraid to dream a little BIGGER, darling.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    How about the super-poor? Are they just poor because of a lack of character?
    Humanity is enslaved because there are abusive elements in society and because abused humans didn't yet figure out a way to free themselves. It takes two for this tango.

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    [T]here are more ways to a prosperous society. Perhaps not your choice of society, but surely one without poverty.
    There are so many ways. I'm happy to let all of them exist, I only ask for one thing: don't force me to be a wheel in the machinery in whatever system you prefer, no matter how good you think it is and no matter how many people are on your side. Allow me to be a sovereign being, let me live in peace while I let you in peace. If I like what you do, I might participate, or I might go about my own ways and do things differently. Let me have my own choice about this, I let you have yours.
    Sure enough Chris. As long as capitalism is out of the equation.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    There are so many ways. I'm happy to let all of them exist, I only ask for one thing: don't force me to be a wheel in the machinery in whatever system you prefer, no matter how good you think it is and no matter how many people are on your side. Allow me to be a sovereign being, let me live in peace while I let you in peace. If I like what you do, I might participate, or I might go about my own ways and do things differently. Let me have my own choice about this, I let you have yours.
    Sure enough Chris. As long as capitalism is out of the equation.
    What exactly is "capitalism"? If you're referring to what's going on right now (which I would rather call cronyism, oligarchy, pathocracy or corporatocracy) then I would agree. In a scientific sense though, capitalism is defined by a) right to private property and b) free and voluntary exchange. In that sense, I would disagree.

    Calling what we have right now "capitalism" is just very crude, it muddles the waters and impedes a clear and complex analysis of what's going on, which then also makes the formulation of an alternative more difficult.

    The system loves it when the debate stays on that level, because then it can easily push the formula: capitalism must go.

    People then think the systen is talking about the conditions that we have right now, the crude popular understanding of capitalism. But instead, the system is referring to the scientific sense of capitalism, economic freedom, which will then go out of the window while people cheer, thinking for a second they will be liberated.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    I guess I misunderstood your intent. Your idea please. In a nutshell if i dare ask. I am all in with basic income. It is fundamentally human. Provide the basic 'needs' until humanity comes up with a fine solution that we all agree.
    Last edited by Hazelfern; 9th March 2019 at 07:24.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    I guess I misunderstood your intent. Your idea please. In a nutshell if i dare ask. I am all in with basic income. It is fundamentally human. Provide the basic 'needs' until humanity comes up with a fine solution that we all agree.
    In a nutshell, self-ownership and voluntary cooperation. It's a private law society.

    The basic need for a human being is liberty, to be self-determined. Since a UBI is nothing but a permanent, coercive redistribution of wealth, it destroys the very liberty it pretends to guarantee.

    Unfair distribution of wealth must be addressed. We do have to redistribute, but not with a broad brush from rich/productive to poor/unproductive, rather from criminal to decent.

    UBI is the hope of the downtrodden to at least have enough to go on living every month, that they can at least make a humble living and not lose everything to the criminals. I think there's no real dignity in this. It can't be the solution to hope for chickenfeed from a thoroughly corrupted system. Instead, massive democratic judicial proceedings to redistribute property and establish liberty, fairness and justice through immutable self-ownership and self-determination. That's the most sustainable form of basic security.

    In such a society, technology is decentralized and benefits all of humanity, thus establishing a form of universal basic prosperity that grows with every generation.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    How is it unfair? To whom is it unfair? In our current age and time?

    Oh wait a sec. Where do you hail from? Country? Does that color your thought process?

    I ask because I do not know - just want to
    Last edited by Hazelfern; 9th March 2019 at 08:03.

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