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Thread: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

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    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    How is it unfair? To whom is it unfair? In our current age and time?

    Oh wait a sec. Where do you hail from? Country? Does that color your thought process?
    If the state baldly subsizides those who are not willing to work, it's unfair towards those who are willing to work. Because they're being treated unfaily, they will work less or stop working altogether, which means that there will be less and less to redistribute and the society will become poor. That's true in every age, time and country.
    Last edited by christian; 9th March 2019 at 08:12.

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    Argentina Avalon Member Hazelfern's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    How is it unfair? To whom is it unfair? In our current age and time?

    Oh wait a sec. Where do you hail from? Country? Does that color your thought process?
    If the state baldly subsizides those who are not willing to work, it's unfair towards those who are willing to work. Because they're being treated unfaily, they will work less or stop working altogether, which means that there will be less and less to redistribute and the society will become poor. That's true in every age, time and country.
    I disagree. Respectfully. I see so many that are unable to work in any meaningful way. Try hard they do but its not enough. Work they do, but its not enough to keep a roof.

    Bring your poor to me. I am just but yes I will take from those who have more than enough to care for my downtrodden.
    Last edited by Hazelfern; 9th March 2019 at 08:32.

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    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    That's a valid observation. You help them by bringing criminals to justice and by establishing self-ownership and self-determination. You don't help them by giving them chickenfeed, that only keeps the downtrodden satisfied eneough to survive and not rebel. It only consolidates the overall power structures that are in place right now.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Grace is our savior

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    Argentina Avalon Member Hazelfern's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    That's a valid observation. You help them by bringing criminals to justice and by establishing self-ownership and self-determination. You don't help them by giving them chickenfeed, that only keeps the downtrodden satisfied eneough to survive and not rebel. It only consolidates the overall power structures that are in place right now.
    Then what should my words be to move and compel

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Another take on this, and not a criticism of those in poverty, more the causes of poverty. It is a fact that many supposedly higher-earning middle class income brackets are little more than one or two paychecks from homelessness, such is the degree of their spending, debt and lack of savings.

    A fundamental issue is basic financial knowledge itself. Many adults cannot even deal with percentages and so will never be equipped to comprehend the destructive power of credit card debt for example.

    For example, many think that borrowing money for a car is a reasonable thing to do.

    Similarly, many think that buying a luxury car before their house is paid off is a reasonable thing to do.

    Many think credit cards are a way to borrow money when lifeís expenses outpace income.

    With assumptions like these, the poor will always be among us.

    No, for many of us, getting out of poverty will necessitate fewer visits to pubs, restaurants, bars, shopping malls, nightclubs, theme parks, and coffee shops. For many that has become a pleasant and comfortable habit.

    Booze, cigarettes, recreational drugs, cable TV, lottery tickets, video game playing, subscriptions of all descriptions, procrastination, internet porn, unhealthy eating, lack of exercise, comfort-eating and unnecessary shopping are other habits that are all widespread.

    These factors stand between the average person and a poverty-free life.
    Last edited by happyuk; 9th March 2019 at 10:09.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Taxing production is, by definition, counter-productive.

    Along the same lines as amor has posted-

    The creation and issuance of a nation's currency by private interests (bankers and their masters)
    coupled with usury (charging interest beyond the scope of the original issue),
    the disastrous consequences of which are masked by fractional-reserve lending (splitting the original issue pie into
    smaller pieces), will inevitably hyper-inflate any financial system.

    Where there were once very strict rules governing the creation of corporations, usually including limited charter,
    eg: upon completion, the corporation chartered with construction of the bridge is dissolved -

    nationalising the money supply and limiting the corporatisation of every aspect of society will render taxation almost moot.

    This is why Qaddafi was taken out - without a private central bank pillaging the production of the people and through
    returning the national revenue to the people, Libya enjoyed the highest standard of living in Africa.

    Where scarcity is manufactured through restricting the money supply - a hidden taxation through inflation,

    abundance can be achieved, in part, simply by national issuance of enough interest-free currency to facilitate the production of an unhindered populace.

    The prosperity of the American colonies using colonial scrip before the European bankers arrived would be one such example.

    The wealth of a nation is predicated on the raw resources of the land and the production of the people.

    A prosperous people would surely have the ability and the duty to care for those among them incapable of caring for themselves.

    In a society less hindered by the predations of a parasitic elite, perhaps there would far fewer left unable to cope,
    less hopelessness and despair escaped, however briefly, by whatever masks the pain.
    Last edited by Zanshin; 9th March 2019 at 19:37.

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    Argentina Avalon Member Hazelfern's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by happyuk (here)
    Another take on this, and not a criticism of those in poverty, more the causes of poverty. It is a fact that many supposedly higher-earning middle class income brackets are little more than one or two paychecks from homelessness, such is the degree of their spending, debt and lack of savings.

    A fundamental issue is basic financial knowledge itself. Many adults cannot even deal with percentages and so will never be equipped to comprehend the destructive power of credit card debt for example.

    For example, many think that borrowing money for a car is a reasonable thing to do.

    Similarly, many think that buying a luxury car before their house is paid off is a reasonable thing to do.

    Many think credit cards are a way to borrow money when lifeís expenses outpace income.

    With assumptions like these, the poor will always be among us.

    No, for many of us, getting out of poverty will necessitate fewer visits to pubs, restaurants, bars, shopping malls, nightclubs, theme parks, and coffee shops. For many that has become a pleasant and comfortable habit.

    Booze, cigarettes, recreational drugs, cable TV, lottery tickets, video game playing, subscriptions of all descriptions, procrastination, internet porn, unhealthy eating, lack of exercise, comfort-eating and unnecessary shopping are other habits that are all widespread.

    These factors stand between the average person and a poverty-free life.
    Grace has given me another chance to speak to your post.
    Please allow me to put it another way, your statement strikes me as biased and untrue. Inflammatory as well. While itís true that poor people spend more money on lottery then others, that is not what made them poor or keeps them in poverty. As for tobacco and booze, youíll find the wealthy hanging right in there, perhaps more so.

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    Default Re: 'This is about saving capitalism': the Dutch historian who savaged Davos elite

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    Quote Posted by happyuk (here)
    Another take on this, and not a criticism of those in poverty, more the causes of poverty. It is a fact that many supposedly higher-earning middle class income brackets are little more than one or two paychecks from homelessness, such is the degree of their spending, debt and lack of savings.

    A fundamental issue is basic financial knowledge itself. Many adults cannot even deal with percentages and so will never be equipped to comprehend the destructive power of credit card debt for example.

    For example, many think that borrowing money for a car is a reasonable thing to do.

    Similarly, many think that buying a luxury car before their house is paid off is a reasonable thing to do.

    Many think credit cards are a way to borrow money when lifeís expenses outpace income.

    With assumptions like these, the poor will always be among us.

    No, for many of us, getting out of poverty will necessitate fewer visits to pubs, restaurants, bars, shopping malls, nightclubs, theme parks, and coffee shops. For many that has become a pleasant and comfortable habit.

    Booze, cigarettes, recreational drugs, cable TV, lottery tickets, video game playing, subscriptions of all descriptions, procrastination, internet porn, unhealthy eating, lack of exercise, comfort-eating and unnecessary shopping are other habits that are all widespread.

    These factors stand between the average person and a poverty-free life.
    Grace has given me another chance to speak to your post.
    Please allow me to put it another way, your statement strikes me as biased and untrue. Inflammatory as well. While itís true that poor people spend more money on lottery then others, that is not what made them poor or keeps them in poverty. As for tobacco and booze, youíll find the wealthy hanging right in there, perhaps more so.
    I'm absolutely fine with anyone that disagrees, no matter how strongly.

    I do think the lottery in particular is a nasty, insidious way of trapping people in the poverty conscious mindset. It is a form of gambling like any other that promises vast, untold riches that will only happen for the tiniest tiniest fraction of humanity. Bad for those that don't understand basic statistics and probabilities.

    I read a fascinating article about the state lottery system in the United States, it probably equally applies everywhere else. It described life in the small low-income towns and rural areas throughout the US. People struggle from paycheck to paycheck, frequently encounter medical bankruptcies, and yet almost everyone in town buys a s***load of lottery tickets every week. They typically say things like

    "You gotta be in it to win it!"
    "When my numbers finally come up in the powerball, Iím gonna get my life turned around!"

    Öand other such tragically misinformed balderdash.

    Similar activity occurs in Las Vegas and on every cruise ship and casino on the planet.

    People feed their hard-earned cash into the pockets of these casino owners (who probably understand psychology better than anyone else), impoverishing themselves and enriching the sneaky owners with mathematical certainty.

    So letís cut to the chase and just put all of this to an end to this nonsense right now:

    You never, ever gamble if your goal is to get out of poverty.

    Gambling and lotteries are actually a double-whammy of loss: from the outset you are up against very poor odds, and you are giving away psychological control of your wealth to something that is out of your control. You are making yourself a victim: "I will get rich if the system decides I will, otherwise I will remain poor". Itís a profoundly incorrect way to think.
    Last edited by happyuk; 20th March 2019 at 19:17.

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