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Thread: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

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    Default Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I live in Asia. My experience is most Asians are more respectful in daily interaction than a lot of westerners. Simple coyyytesys like not talking over you, not giving unsolicited advice, speaking softly, not-being patronizing, not monopolizing a conversation, not bragging... the list goes on. I know I've made every mistake in that list: interrupted people, been annoying and much much more. I know I can be sandpaper abrasive and I'm working on it. Working on being less abrasive


    I do alright interacting with the locals. Even if they don't like you, they don't show it obviously. I think that's one of the keys to decent interaction. Most expats are kind of chilled, as the tranquil culture rubs off on you. So it's always kind of a shock when I bump into entitled whitey fresh off the boat. Or read The Internet (not Avalon, mainly to Reddit) and I see waddling, sneering know-it-alls who are PROUD of being rude + abrasive. Their normal response is "I tell it like it is. I'm honest" I've seen this dozens, if not hundreds of times. It's not an isolated case.

    Bluntness is not honesty. In fact, it's often a cover for deception.

    There are tons of behaviors that are alright in the West which are not alright in Asia. It's not all Westerners. Most people are good. It's "only" about 10-20% of any industry or social group. But that 10-20% is enough to destroy a company, a work culture, a sales force and ultimately an economy. In 2017 I tried to set up a startup with probably the rudest "straight-talker" on the face of the Earth. The tech industry is crawling with people like that.

    So be a straight talking bad boy if you want (and it is usually males). But few people will want to hire, trade with, socialize with or give money to a company, industry or economy brimming with a vocal minority of tapdancing buffons.

    Is the payback for treating people like they are beneath you a dying economy?

    Im not sitting here wagging my finger at people. I have a little money in the West. My parents are in London. I don't want fair Europa to go down in any way. But if we don't weed these people out of our work culture, they are going to waddle all over Europe and America.


    {/RANT}
    Last edited by Daozen; 16th March 2019 at 22:54.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    My European grandmother was not loud or abrasive, per se, but she had this habit of occassionally speaking her mind that bugged me. When she met one of my boyfriends, decades ago...the first thing she said to him was that he looked like he ate too much. She would advise me that she didn't like my haircuts. She referred to her very kind neighbour who baked cakes and cookies for her as, "that fat woman down the street!"

    I had an elderly friend who came from Holland who was the same only worse and wonder if it's a Northern European, older generation thing?

    I know the stereotype is American loud mouth schnooks but it seems that if it's the case, it may have come by way of Northern Europe, or is part of a thrill seeking temperament.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Hmmm, interesting... Was she a Sagittarius? It is the most exotic of zodiac signs but they have a tendency to fire burning arrows without thinking. I did not mention any country by name, and if there was a specific region infested with insincere, patronizing buffoons who talk down to everyone... I for sure would not know where that is.

    We can all be morons at times. The big difference is when someone pulls you up on your behavior, do you go "Öh yeah I'm sorry o this is embarrassing I know I can be an idiot at times I won't do it again."or do you say: "Yup that's me honest to goodness call em like I sees em straight talker keeping it real"

    And then the next line:

    If you can't take it get outta here.

    So.... everyone did. And now they trade with each other. I build software part time. I've hired 20-30 Indian developers over the past 3 years. 80 percent of them have been awesome to work with. My experience with programmer-denizens of one particular country has been bad. Really bad. So yeah, act like a badass at a party if you want, but there are economic consequences for being irritating. When I see particular flags on Freelancer sites I just don't even click. Why should I play those odds?

    The English have a terrible reputation in Southern Spain. It is well deserved. Likewise, other countries are famously tough to work with. It's not just me, that opinion is widely held in many many circles and industries. Economic consequences.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    A VERY interesting recent post here (from Hervé) about how the Inuit raise their children, and how they're always super-patient with one another and never express anger.

    Fascinating, and highly recommended. Do take a look.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    This is a complex topic, one that is further complicated by cultural conventions, and different ideas about etiquette.
    Personally, I prefer someone to be up-front with me, and to speak the truth, this has to be tempered with mercy, I dislike self indulgent rudeness also.
    It is a cultural cadence, I find a lot of the Asian conventions somewhat hypocritical, and two-faced, they can result in gossip and talking about people in two ways, one way when you are with them, and the other way when you speak of them with others.

    The western tendency to speak 'bluntly' as you call it, is a refreshing honesty.
    What would you rather, that I pretend to like you, and speak sweetly at you, then trash your name with others - or to let you know right away I dislike you?
    I don't think there is a correct answer to this, but diplomacy and courtesy are designed to lubricate social intercourse, I think there is a good balance between social hypocrisy, and clumsy communication. But what is it?
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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    "Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?"

    I dont know, But they said "dont take anything personal"

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    A VERY interesting recent post here (from Hervé) about how the Inuit raise their children, and how they're always super-patient with one another and never express anger.

    Fascinating, and highly recommended. Do take a look.
    Thanks Bill, beautiful, I seemed to not pay attention to this one. However the title is wrong. It should be "How Inuit parents teach kids to control their anger".... " How Inuit parents teach kids to not be anger " The first denote the presence of anger the second denote the absence of anger. Its opposites

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Quote Posted by Mike Gorman (here)
    What would you rather, that I pretend to like you, and speak sweetly at you, then trash your name with others - or to let you know right away I dislike you?
    I don't think there is a correct answer to this, but diplomacy and courtesy are designed to lubricate social intercourse, I think there is a good balance between social hypocrisy, and clumsy communication. But what is it?
    You brought up the crux of the matter Mike and laid it out in a way I could get my head around. Yes, it is a complex topic. In my experience, Ozzies, Saffies and Kiwis tend to blunt, and kind of proud of it. But is that self-congratulation serving them well? ... Suicide is the leading cause of death among Ozzie males. Maybe that antipodean in your face "honesty" is not serving that society well. If it's so good down there, and their macho honesty is so refreshing... why are so many young Australian males killing themselves? Just keepin it real, mate.

    What would you rather, that I pretend to like you, and speak sweetly at you, then trash your name with others - or to let you know right away I dislike you?

    You only gave me two choices. There's a third option. The honest diplomat.

    Yes, Asians can be two faced... it's not perfect here by a long way.

    So what is the solution???

    Daozen walks into the room wearing a ****ty shirt and a terrible crewcut.

    Hey! Like my new shirt? Got a new haircut today.

    Dishonest: Oh Daozen, I like your shirt. Great haircut. Makes you look so masculine. <<< That guy is a sugary greaseball.
    Blunt: ****ty shirt Daozen, get a new one, mate. <<< That guy is a sneering social buffoon with no soft skills.
    The honest diplomat: Uhh, not the best shirt I've ever seen mate, no offence. And you can grow that hair out in a couple of months. You look like you just got out of jail hahaha. <<< This guy has mixed East and West into a clear, sweet and sour Elixir.

    That's my solution to the riddle of the tongue. But I agree, it's tough.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Great topic Daozen. Bill's pointer to how the Inuit raise their children is very informative. It's like they mould their children's wirings at an early age to ensure they become civilized yet effective human beings. Yes, many confuse crude hurtfulness with truthfulness, they are not the same.

    Concerning AutumnW's observations about her belligerent grandmother, there's no question many of an advanced age still carry around the negative behavior patterns of their youth, without ever overcoming them or outgrowing them. Once you reach middle age, and still have these self-destructive qualities, you are pretty much stuck with sadly. I see this ALL the time.

    But the proclivity to show off and lord it over others - is necessarily a western thing? I see it as more of a psychological issue than a cultural / tribal one.

    Slightly off-topic, but still to do with the issue of arrested development, is in my opinion one of Jordan Peterson's most important talks, the issue of Peter Pan syndrome:

    Last edited by happyuk; 21st March 2019 at 20:37.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    It may be the very reason why ET( and other extraordinary) disclosure happens in America first but stagnates in Asia and takes ages to get through Europe.
    It all despite the fact that there are countless sightings and people with spiritual, ET and other extraordinary experiences in many if not most Asian cultures but also people are generally believers in Life in the Universe
    since or unless they were not strictly indoctrinated by geocentric creationism( that is common part of Judeo-Christian teachings “for public”).

    In India for example 89% people in public surveys responded positively when asked whether they believe in “Life in the Universe” and whether we are being visited.

    The awareness of it is very subtle almost negotiable otherwise but deeply rooted both in scriptures, legends and oral and recorded versions of history.

    The whole point there is that knowledge of other dimensions and beings “behind the veil” and expressed metaphorically in subtle terms so very few people speak about their subtle experiences other than to their spiritual teachers or close friends, for example.

    To speak about anything tangibly extraterrestrial or too extraordinary in open is blunt.

    I’ve stumbled upon this long ago and when I first wanted to make written record or open my mouth about our common extraterrestrial heritage and ancestry in Stars and events I saw in my own eyes.
    Even though I felt it’s ethically important and crucial to share that information and my duty to make it available it felt exactly “blunt” to mention any of it,
    especially in Asia and later in Europe.

    I’ve destroyed attempts for first, second and third notes ..though I seldom take any notes anyway.

    The only meaningful communication I made about it and way I’ve got forwards was on ufocasebook forum that is run by researchers based in the US.

    If it was not for English - American mentality being so open as blunt and cracking through so many tabus, lots of various disclosures and discoveries would probably never happen and if they happened they’d be kept under cover.

    Most of this knowledge is kept under cover by militaries worldwide which includes Asian countries. Sometimes people ask here why don’t we hear from them. The answer sort of ..defines itself.


    Being blunt hurts yes. It has definitely its downsides. But sometimes it’s outright necessary.
    For example, doctor should be rather straight with their patients, I believe instead telling them nice stories or, keeping knowledge away from them.
    In case of emergency it’s better to be open and share an uncomfy truth, such as “kids, there’s earthquake coming and we need to move on” instead telling them we all dress up nicely and drive to see movies.

    I’m not one person who like being blunt but there’s a lesson to learn about it. I guess ..




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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Am I the only one that is taking issues with Daozen overly simplistic view of "Asians"

    Lets start with: Where are living exactly?

    Asia is kind of a big place. And to say that Kazakhstanis, Persians, which are technically Asians, Bangladeshi, and Japanese can be all spoken about with the term Asian is painting with way too broad of a brush for my tastes.

    Many of those things you talked about are actually linked to their native language. There is something called WAIT TIME in linguistics talking about when people jump in.


    I have lived in South Korea, Busan for a year and then spent three years in Japan, Kobe most recently.

    I found Japanese people to all be polite, same with Koreans but they are more outgoing and expressive. But you should note that polite does not mean nice. One can be polite without being nice or respectful.


    So they would not confront me directly ever.

    Lets take a work example. I was a lecturer at a University. My contract stated nothing about hours to be on campus. I would complete my work and be there for office hours, which almost no student ever used, and do my grading but then I would go home if I had nothing more for the day. One day, a person that worked for the department was talking to me about something and kind of casually brought up the idea that I should be staying until the end of the day. This was technically a subordinate to me as I was a full time lecturer and she was part time. She was told to do this by my boss in the department who did not want to have to confront directly.

    This is all about saving face.

    Or on the train, you would see loud groups of people, native or foreign, and you could tell other people on the train were not happy about it but were too polite to be confrontational.

    Then again I have had a chinese student while working in America directly tell me that If I so wished he could arrange for a booty call with one of the chinese girls, in a mafioso type a way.

    I imagine if a Chinese person came in here and started saying "All whites are _______________________" ya ll would take issues with it right quick.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I was raised in New York and apparently we are considered rude loud mouths. I went to grad school in CA and then returned to NY. I had a very difficult time getting along with people there. I live in CA now and gravitate to people from the East.

    I lived in Hawaii for 8 years, a state primarily populated by Asians and Pacific Islanders. I also didn’t get along with them at all, unless they were raised in the eastern US. It’s only on Avalon or to close friends I can talk about this given our recent war on PC speech.

    Asian’s socially presented as quite, docile, kind, and polite all that you mentioned but it’s partly a façade. I was actually offended, even disgusted when women would giggle or laugh when they were angry, unhappy or fearful of something. Grown women acting like helpless little girls was counter to my strong women’s lib orientation of the 70s-80s that I grew up in. To me they were Passive Aggressive, they got just as angry, upset, or hostile anyone else, but learned social controls to deceive and not show it. They are not Zen on the inside. My Asian neighbor who presented with all those wonderful qualities went into my back yard and cut down a small tree in my yard because it was slightly blocking his view of the ocean! I was renting, he owned, to him I was trash, not even worth the time ask if I would remove it or I was ok with it.

    Easterners when they chose to be, when they think it’s called for are openly aggressive and straight forward, with a take it or leave it approach. They do not perceive this as rude because honesty, a display of real feelings is to them a valued gift and an appropriate way to interact. Sorry folks but I’ll take Trump over Hirono in a heartbeat.
    Last edited by Savannah; 17th March 2019 at 22:26.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Agape, thanks. Some good points. I'll get back to you later this week.

    *

    Thank you for your points and stories Praxis... I know the term Asian is overly simplistic... I have experience of 6 or 7 Asian countries.

    I imagine if a Chinese person came in here and started saying "All whites are _______________________" ya ll would take issues with it right quick.

    I didn't say it was all Westerners or all Asians. I said, "most Asians" + "not all Westerners." So you are over-simplifying my post and wrestling strawmen.

    Most Asians have better soft skills than a lot of Westerners. This is my experience. Yes, the politeness can sometimes mask all sorts of evil, I know that. My intent is not to put Asians on a pedestal. Just to highlight the importance of soft skills in business. Lack of them can destroy a workplace, business or economy. We see that happening in the West.

    If you:

    - Go to a restaurant
    - Hire a programmer
    - Look for a factory to build a product.
    - Do business with a bank...
    - Go to a supermarket.


    ... or any other financial transaction... you are going to want to deal with someone who acts with inherent respect for your humanness. Even if that respect is a mask. That's what politeness is... superficially respecting people we may not even like. If you're going to state an uncomfortable truth, use the sandwich method.

    Open with a softener, state 'truth', end the statement pointing the way forward. It isn't hard.

    No one's going to spend money at a place where the people have poor soft skills. No one's gonna hire an abrasive douche. In my view, many (not all) Westerners are a little abrasive.

    Every one screws up sometimes. But here's the big difference. If someone picks you up on being rude, do you go "oh sorry" or do you launch into the "Im a straight talker" defence. We're talking economics and the marketplace here. Money, capital and profit. Not sitting round a pub table with friends, where the rules are different.

    The price for having poor soft skills --- and being smug about it --- is a bad career, under-performing marketplace and ultimately a shattered economy.
    Last edited by Daozen; 17th March 2019 at 16:20.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I did the EST seminars, Erhard seminar training in to 1970,ies.. Many people railed on this, but I ,as I always do, absorbed the good and carried it with me. As humans we are all guilty of the above in the OP from time to time.

    Werner had a line I always liked." Be interested , not interesting" even if you need to fake it for a while, it becomes duly noted and rewarding.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    we all know about "white lies", but i've recently been introduced to this concept of "black truths".

    a black truth is something that is technically true, but isn't meant to be helpful in any way, and actually is often intended as harmful. an example of this might be loudly telling someone how bad their haircut looks in front of a group of people or someone they're romantically interested in. something like that. or letting someone know, despite all their efforts, that they're utterly awful at golf and should give it up immediately...and not only that, you're much better.

    if you're getting your rocks off by telling someone something hurtful, or getting an ego boost out of it (even though it may be technically true) it might be considered a "black truth".

    you can see these people from a mile away. we've had them on the forum (i'm thinking of one in particular as i write this). they often profess to "tell it like it is", but in reality they've just found a handy excuse to act like enormous *****.

    i have a friend who prides himself on his honesty. and that just might be the first sign of someone who is driven by ego and not magnanimity, i.e. a "black truther". ive watched him for years, and i wouldn't really call him honest - obnoxiously blunt might be more accurate. he's very good at pointing out others' faults, but when the microscope is turned back onto him he can't take it, and gets very defensive. i would define him as a hypocrite long before i'd define him as honest.

    communication is an art! as Daozan rightly pointed out, there are often more than 2 options when in a situation that calls for one's opinion on something that might be hurtful to someone. get creative for crying out loud! the problem is we've got a world full of f#cking cavemen who don't read or write or think very deeply on things, and when it comes to a situation that requires a little communicative nuance, they fall back onto the intellectually lazy and convenient mantra: "i tell it like it is!" it's the battle cry of the idiot.

    there is a time and a place for directness, of course. the level of directness i have with my lifelong friends isn't the level i'd apply to everyone. so these are 2 more variables: timing, and who you happen to be talking to.

    but, a reasonable balance can be struck with almost everyone, i think. mike had brought up this point and it's a good one, and my answer might be, you just sort of know in your heart when you're hitting the right notes with someone. a conversation requires constant subtle adjustments, and if you make them or at least try, honesty can be conveyed without clubbing someone over the head with "bluntness". try humor, for example. it goes a long way man!
    Last edited by Mike; 17th March 2019 at 16:37.

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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I want to point out that the best service I have ever had on a consistent basis was in Japan.

    They know how to do service industry. After I got back home, It was such a sharp contrast that it was jarring and you have to tip here too!

    What you are calling soft skills is very true in my experience in Japan. Just wow, Amazing service.

    I dont like disney type places but went to Universal Studios Japan and had a wonderful time mainly because the service.

    I cant stress enough how awesome the service generally is in Japan. Literally, the train people issue a public apology for being a minute late.

    Japan service is like if Singapore Air built a country.

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    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Thank you Daozen 🙏🌟🙏

    On the topic of Inuit and other children, I’d like to add the following..again, there are many pros and cons to every culture on Earth.
    From what I’ve seen and experienced in Asia for example, children are always treated very kindly till they’re mature enough to display adult emotions.
    With exception of mentally sick-abusive- parents you don’t see Indian or other cultured Asian parents getting angry with young kids, beating them or yelling at them. If they shout they make sure the child understands it’s because they worry too much and there’s danger on the road. They tease them, laugh at them, even poke them gently but never treat them with the level of brute sadistic anger some parents exercise with their children in the West.
    As a result, Asian children are generally very happy and stress free and don’t fail to socialise in young age.

    Perhaps they hang on their parents too much and have greater respect and love for them ever in their lives, well unless or till their attitude changes for some reason, later.

    In Western cultures, young children are often treated as “little adults” and hurt emotionally at young age or say, confronted with emotions they can’t handle.
    I think it’s true for all of us no matter the age; if we are confronted with strong emotion we can’t handle we tend to develop irrational reactions.

    It takes advanced psychological training to learn about certain type of strong emotional reactions in others and ourselves.

    Anger is mostly, irrational reaction to complex problem we can’t resolve.

    One has to experience many emotions and learn about their causes ( and sometimes, consequences) rather than suppressing them.

    So no matter what manners do my friends of various origins embrace, I always try to give them an ear and time in real life so they can talk themselves out. Sometimes, just listening to people helps them to sort themselves out.
    Offering perspectives comes after.


    But one of the mistakes I found with some old cultures, including European cultures is that in certain families they’d put a face on instead sharing how they feel in reality.
    People then tried holding and holding for ages and suppressing their feelings ..till they could not hold anymore and left without saying sorry or broke to conflict.


    Oh ..on a funny note...I remember my Japanese friend telling me “I really like your ballerina hairdo but you should keep it smooth and straight
    I thought ..grr... are you sure that’s going to work with me ?

    But of course, he was quite right. No “Western boy” would ever care to advise me that way.
    West too has its ways of deception. While some Asians can be blatantly honest.



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  31. Link to Post #18
    United States Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I've gone through stages re expressing myself honestly and sensitively.
    I had lots of religious programming growing up--"judge not lest ye be judged", "turn the other cheek" etc.
    When I got to be a rebellious teenager, I learned the value of not suppressing my emotions, but also that it was a balancing act.
    For women generally, who are conditioned from childhood not to put themselves forward, to be subservient, passive, etc. the real challenge is often to learn how to speak their truth, and sometimes even just to know what their truth really is.
    Confrontation can be done in a loving, compassionate way, but it all depends on what your intention is.
    You can tell someone something that is not going to be comfortable for them to hear in a way that shows them you are understanding and trying to be helpful, or in a way that shows them you are coming from ego, from feeling superior, from being judgemental, etc..
    The results will often depend largely on how you go about it, unless the person is just not open, in which case better just not to comment at all.

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    Avalon Member Hym's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    Savannah, I come from the same experience but from a west coast, Calif., view. I may not even agree with someone who is honest, but I appreciate the honesty more than the false getting along that leaves the passion, which should be used for working out differences, for talking negatively when we're not there.

    The very different state I live in now is filled with a world's full of drama queen men whose company I out front, to their faces, refuse to engage, even more so because I'm a man. My ability to not be offended by the jerks and manipulators in an intense work environment, also and notably so inhabited by some real good humans, has not overcome my common sense to choose other incomes, which is my present life.

    A lot of b.s., dishonesty, is cultivated in a mixture of work environments, the politics of finance, deep social manipulations through entertainment and religion, as well as within the unions that don't come anywhere near their charter or expressed intent, being run by greedy psychopaths and their excremental offspring.

    Healing and humanity take a while to change and even after removing the psychopath, the vestiges of those entrails still inhabit those in hiring positions. Good luck with that sh**, but I don't get paid while sick working environments slumber along in their healing process.

    The mix I have was being in an overly large family where we often talked and listened at the same time, which no one took personally. This intense form of communicating is both good and challenging to others who we engage us in conversation.

    Of course there are/were very different personalities, but the common logistics of constantly being in a large social group seem to make our choices for us when we "choose" where we want to live. Tho I haven't been to NY I would probably fit in because of this attribute formed in my youth. Honesty is profound to me and it has it's levels that I think are important to being who we are, without regrets.

    I am not surprised that, even without any east coast accent, some from the area think I am from there and have just lost my accent.
    Last edited by Hym; 17th March 2019 at 18:45.

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    United States Avalon Member Denise/Dizi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bluntness is not Honesty. Are "straight-talkers" wiping billions from the Western economy?

    I think it all comes down to personal responsibility.... You cannot use your childhood for your behaviors as an adult if you're AWARE and fully capable of changing those behaviors...

    I suppose every situation has it's own set of boundaries and definitions. As we all are unique, even from home to home in any given region.. When I experience someone, and I can't get a "Fix" on them, I'll ask someone else what I am missing. If they seemingly have NO filters, I try to figure out ways to deal with them, that I can be agreeable with.

    It all depends on how much energy you're willing to put into each personal relationship. The truth is, I care how people see me.. and as such, I tend to put more effort into interpersonal relationships. Not to change others, but so they see me in the way I feel I present myself, in a kind and loving way. If that means I have to "Figure them out" I do try to.

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