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    Canada Avalon Member bojancan's Avatar
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    Question Electric Cars...

    I received the following in an email. If the math here is correct, this is a big eye opener. What do you think? I could not find a relevant thread, so I opened a new one. If it exists, moderators merge please.

    >>ELECTRIC  CARS --🚗<<
     
    In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car: Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I’ve ever seen and tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats.  Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.
     
    At a neighbourhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbour, a BC Hydro executive.  I asked him how that renewable thing was doing.  He laughed, then got serious.  If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities.  For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service.  The average house is equipped with 100 amp service.  On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each.  For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!  This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following.  Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway.  It’s enlightening.
     
    Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.”  Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery.  So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph.  Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours.  In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity.  It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
     
    The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.  I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.  $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.  Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg.  $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.
     
    So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
     
     


     
    Last edited by bojancan; 19th March 2019 at 04:12.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    that's an easy math to do if you have an electric car. A high school student can do it if desired. A multi meter..

    Another example of believe by faith "the engineers did the math already..."

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by bojancan (here)
    $1.16 per kwh
     

    Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....

    So this whole article is kind of hilarious... especially this:

    Quote So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math,
    He kinda failed at the math tho... eh?

    Quote The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each
    And this guy has no clue how electricity works.... you can easily get higher amp service (for a co$t of course) and it won't take away from neighbors etc..

    This whole thing is written poorly with no research it seems.
    Last edited by TargeT; 19th March 2019 at 13:27.
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....
    Isn't this due to the fact that we run primarily on coal (very cheap kwh)? Technically a coal powered car then.

    And yeah I have a basic welder that's 140 amps that plugs into my wall no prob haha. Never tripped a breaker or anything. Also just had the electrician extend a 220v line out to my shop/area. No biggy.
    Last edited by Strat; 19th March 2019 at 16:47.
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    One main concern with electric or hybrid vehicles is the emission of electromagnetic radiation.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    I think we're going to see even more of a push, maybe not as soon in the US as elsewhere. All the news about various countries going up to the moon so they can harvest moon dust and bring it back...

    What's the stuff they're after, Deuterium 3 or something like that?

    The fusion reactor tech that is based on this fuel from the moon is starting to sound like something the global bosses might possibly be settling on as the next big energy production technology. (The next one that will be allowed, mind you. Can't have energy production that isn't controlled, of course.)

    Oil and coal won't last forever, but we won't see much in the way of a big alternative until every last ounce of profit can be gained from them first. If the future plan is to roll into this new reactor tech using that stuff from the moon, then you will start to see economic transitions to move a lot of infrastructure over to even more electric/battery power than we have today.

    Just a theory tho.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....
    Isn't this due to the fact that we run primarily on coal (very cheap kwh)? Technically a coal powered car then.

    And yeah I have a basic welder that's 140 amps that plugs into my wall no prob haha. Never tripped a breaker or anything. Also just had the electrician extend a 220v line out to my shop/area. No biggy.

    That coal line sounds like some "global warming" propaganda.... nuclear and hydro are by far the cheapest.

    The US mainly gets it's power from Nuclear (and has for a while) and a lot of it from Hydro electric... so extremely "green" (bull**** term IMO) power for the most part.

    Quote Posted by Joe Akulis (here)
    I think we're going to see even more of a push, maybe not as soon in the US as elsewhere. All the news about various countries going up to the moon so they can harvest moon dust and bring it back...

    What's the stuff they're after, Deuterium 3 or something like that?

    The fusion reactor tech that is based on this fuel from the moon is starting to sound like something the global bosses might possibly be settling on as the next big energy production technology.
    It's helium3
    Last edited by TargeT; 19th March 2019 at 18:22.
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by bojancan (here)
    $1.16 per kwh
     

    Most states in the US have anywhere from $0.08 to $0.13 per kwh....

    So this whole article is kind of hilarious... especially this:

    Quote So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math,
    He kinda failed at the math tho... eh?

    Quote The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each
    And this guy has no clue how electricity works.... you can easily get higher amp service (for a co$t of course) and it won't take away from neighbors etc..

    This whole thing is written poorly with no research it seems.
    Yup ... A volt should be getting at least 50 miles to a charge, not 25; charge sustaining mode should be roughly 42 MPG not 30, A volt uses 15 amps to charge the battery not 75 (conflation) -- your clothes dryer will use 30-40 amps. The current system can handle everyone drying their clothes right?

    Also, do people charge their cars 24h/7?


    I am sure there is a valid concern in there somewhere, but when the premise is rife with errors, thus so must be the conclusion ...
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 19th March 2019 at 19:20.
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    my stand point from here in Germany:

    the buying cost of electric cars starts ca. 35k Euros; this is an enormous sum; according to gleaned reports there are only 16k loading stations at this time in Germany and my visual observations have observed that almost all of the loading places are constantly being occupied (how long does it take an electro car to fully 'tank'?) so if one needs to load up you may have to wait in line a long time; plus where do you park it while waiting your turn for your loading?

    obviously the electro car is in its infancy stages (as if there aren't other more advanced technologies out there) but at this time I just don't think the price paid in all aspects is worth it-

    Larry

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Just to clear things up about the article and how charging a car battery that requires 75 amps @ 240 volts reduces the number of homes that can deliver that amount of power. I am not a lineman so this is mostly theoretical, but I can explain what they are talking about. In a residential neighborhood electricity along the poles is at 600 volts (it can be higher). On the pole or on the ground will be the step-down transformers that take this three-phase power (3 legs of 600 volts each) and reduce it to 240volts per phase.

    The average transformer can feed six homes with between 100 and 200 amps each supplied by two of the three step-down phases. If one household takes an additional 75 amps and uses it steady for ten hours to charge a car that transformer can only provide three of the homes with the additional power.

    However, this in fact is not simple math. The power consumption of the average household never reaches its capacity - not even close. So although the transformer rating may say it cannot deliver the power required to each home it services, the only time of the day it might trip out is at dinner time, and if every home uses the dryer and oven at the exact same time. Otherwise the services as designed can take the additional load.

    What can't take the load is the power plant feeding those millions of homes - that can't take the additional strain.
    Forget about it

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    ...

    However, this in fact is not simple math. The power consumption of the average household never reaches its capacity - not even close. So although the transformer rating may say it cannot deliver the power required to each home it services, the only time of the day it might trip out is at dinner time, and if every home uses the dryer and oven at the exact same time. Otherwise the services as designed can take the additional load.

    What can't take the load is the power plant feeding those millions of homes - that can't take the additional strain.

    And to add, most people will be charging at night when most other electrical uses are not active ...


    I found this: https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/...g-installation -- it paints quite a different story (than the OP) on household charging amps required and time needed to charge (at least in regards to Teslas) ... according to this, a charge at 16 amps for 8 hours will yield at least 100km of driving in their least efficient car. Since 100kms will last the average person a good several days; charging is only going to happen maybe once or twice a week. Also the Tesla cars themselves won't accept more than 48 amps -- all that's a far cry from imagining 75 amps 24/7 on the power grid in each home.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 20th March 2019 at 01:42.
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

    There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    I would like to refute the OP with my firsthand knowledge with a 2017 Chevrolet Volt that I own. It's possible the OP's account of Volt is with a badly maintained first generation Volt.

    In Atlanta, GA current gasoline price for regular grade costs $2.46/gallon.

    So my car can average 43 mpg driving around Atlanta: $2.46 / 43 mpg = $0.057/ mile energy cost.

    General Motors advertises 31Kwh energy consumed for 100 miles. A caveat is that this efficiency rate is dependent upon ambient outdoor temperature. If the average ambient outdoor temperature is above 70 Fahrenheit, then the Volt is most likely to get this rate. Otherwise if the ambient outdoor temperate is near freezing temperature, then the efficiency rate of driving on battery goes way down.

    My local electric rate is $0.07 / Kwh. So 31 KWh X 0.07 = $1.12 for 100 miles range. $2.17/100 = $0.0217 / mile energy cost.

    Gas cost to drive 100 miles:
    100 miles X $0.057 = $5.70

    Electricity cost to drive 100 miles:
    100 miles X $0.0217 = $2.17

    Monthly cost of 1000 miles on electricity = $21.70, while monthly cost on gasoline alone would be $57.

    I like the fact that my Volt has both electric motors and gasoline engine that can drive the car. If I run out of battery, I can continue to drive another 382 miles. Refilling with gasoline as needed, I can continue to drive like any other ICE or a hybrid car without having to charge my battery for as long as I want to go continuously without any downtime. GM advertises 420 total range for full battery and full gasoline tank for the 2nd generation Volt, which I own. The fist generation Volt did not have as good range as the 2nd generation.

    My Volt keeps track of ICE oil life. In the 2.5 years that I've owned my Volt, I only had to change the oil twice. Because my Volt uses the electric motors to slow down the car to about 5 mph, my brakes are expected to last at least 10 years or more before they need to be replaced.

    Also I've been easier on the planet earth by not having emitted so much carbon dioxide and other by products of ICE.

    With these real life first hand experiences, I've saved a lot of money and time by not having to visit gasoline stations as much as I would for an ICE car.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Eventually governments will ‘wake up’ and realize that electric cars don’t contribute to maintaining roads which gasoline cars do by built-in extra tax into gasoline price. What will happen then? Bigger taxes on electricity, which brings down efficiency?...
    Last edited by bojancan; 21st March 2019 at 00:12.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by bojancan (here)
    I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

    There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.
    Apparently, if you drive 1,000 miles a week, it costs about $44 a month to charge a Chevy Volt:

    http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/how-m...e-a-chevy-volt

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by bojancan (here)
    I am grateful to all of you who clarified, corrected and added valuable info to my original post. In spite of inaccuracies I believe the post was useful; at list it facilitated positive conversation. I posted it as I received it, without any scientific claims or references. The intention was to warn us about possible scam, ripoff etc.

    There are so many areas where governments neglect or purposely ignore real research and blindly follow someones agendas - as well as their own agendas, (for example 5G, vaccines, causing harm with electromagnetic radiation, etc), so one could safely assume that also in this area we are far from transparency.
    Apparently, if you drive 1,000 miles a week, it costs about $44 a month to charge a Chevy Volt:

    http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/how-m...e-a-chevy-volt
    Tomkat, the article gave an example of driving 1,000 miles per month (not 1,000 miles a week), which according to the article came out to $44 per month. This is the example the article used to calculate the energy cost for 1,000 miles of driving in a month:
    Example 2 – Electricity: You drive 1,000 miles per month, your car (The Chevy Volt) gets 2.7 miles per kilowatt hour used (EPA estimated average), and you pay $0.12 per kilowatt-hour (national average) That means:
    1000 miles / 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour = 370 Kilowatt-Hours
    And
    370 Kilowatt-Hours * $0.12 Per Kilowatt Hour = $44.44 in Electricity per month.
    I don't know where he got the 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour rate, but is not accurate for 2017 Chevrolet Volt. According to the official government fuel economy site, it is 31 kilowatt hours per 100 miles (106 MPGe [miles per gallon equivalent]). 31 Kwh / 100 miles = 0.31 Kwh per mile. 0.31 Kwh per mile/ 1 = 3.2258 miles per kilowatt hours, not 2.7 miles per kilowatt-hour.

    Also the author of the article you quoted used $0.12 cost per kilowatt-hour. So actual electric cost will vary depending on the electric rate charged at a given location. My utility charges $0.07 per kilowatt-hour, so I still stand by my calculations (Monthly cost of 1000 miles on electricity = $21.70) I posted previously. At any rate, even the author you quoted showed that driving 1,000 miles on gasoline will be several times the cost of driving using electricity.

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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    The US mainly gets it's power from Nuclear (and has for a while) and a lot of it from Hydro electric... so extremely "green" (bull**** term IMO) power for the most part.
    According to this source coal and natural gas account for higher percentages of electricity generation in the USA, versus nuclear and hydro:

    https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/..._united_states

    Last edited by Alan; 22nd March 2019 at 17:36. Reason: add link to picture
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    Default Re: Electric Cars...

    The main argument against electric cars: if everybody switched tomorrow, it wouldn't work!

    Duh, of course not. The same was true back when horse and buggies were replaced by cars. It happened over decades, not from one day to the other. But I am pretty sure there were enough people complaining about that inferior car technology, because if everyone switched things would break down.

    The turnover time of the global car fleet is 20 years, so even if every single car sold today was electric, it would take 2 decades to completely switch. Currently we are at 2% of car sales being electric. Let that sink in and think how slowly it's coming and how much time we have to prepare - in the best case with renewable energy sources.

    Also think how much better those cars will be 20 years from now. The internal combustion engine had more than 100 years to get perfected, electric car technology ist just at the beginning.

    From an engineering perspective: the electric car is so simple, robust and cheap (once optimized and mass produced) that the hyper complex modern combustion engine doesn't stand a chance, except for special applications where there is no alternative to the high energy density of liquid fuels (aviation, military).

    You may want to continue drowning the world in oil spills and oil wars because it's just so practical - nothing has to be changed for that. But in the long run there is no way around renewable energy. Either that or extinction.
    Last edited by Builder; 22nd March 2019 at 20:43.
    To connect humankind with itself and the Cosmos!

  36. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Builder For This Post:

    Ernie Nemeth (22nd March 2019), onevoice (23rd March 2019), Strat (22nd March 2019), Wind (23rd March 2019)

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