A Moral Obligation To Do What's Meaningful

[Mike]

Do we have a moral obligation to do what's meaningful?

Not what makes us happy, what is meaningful.

Simply put, what might be meaningful is the process in which expressing our individual talents also helps others.

This might be accurately called fulfillment.

Lets operate on the assumption that we all have unique talents. One might then ask, why do i have these unique talents? and also, why should i act on them?

I think we all take our gifts for granted, and often have to be pushed to exercise them. because sometimes it just feels like work, right?

The value of embracing and refining our talents is found in the joy and inspiration it gives to others. In this way, these talents aren't exclusively ours; they belong to everyone, and there is indeed a moral responsibility to share them imo

This often takes effort. As rewarding as it can be to offer joy or inspiration, we often tend towards laziness. The act of overcoming apathy and embracing this responsibility is a major part of what gives life meaning.

It comes easier to some than it does others. The greater the talent, the greater the responsibility - that's the trade off. And it's easy to get weighed down by responsibility, and experience enormous stress and anxiety as a result. Consider all our greatest leaders and artists - often they succumb to alcoholism, drugs, suicide etc. They intuitively feel this obligation to do what's meaningful, and sometimes it gets to be too much.

Some people refuse to even begin, and perform way below their capabilities in response to their calling - it's a form of cowardice, i would say. They are simply unwilling to embrace their gifts and all the accompanying responsibilities. But things actually get worse for these people. Sacrifices are an undeniable part of life, and if you refuse to make them, life will make them for you. I think this is one of the greatest sources of anxiety and depression and mental illness in this world today.

i recall reading something somewhere, and it was quite brutal but it rang true; i don't recall the quote exactly, but it was something along the lines of, if you refuse to contribute in some way towards the progress of humanity through your unique talents, the universe will eventually "weed you out"...and it won't be pretty

it made an impression on me!

we all get this wonderful opportunity down here in 3d (although it doesn't often feel too wonderful), and if you don't respect it, misfortune will find you... not thru some vengeful god, but as the natural consequence of curling up in a ball and being too afraid to express yourself and thus failing to meet your obligation to help others and yourself. we all have appointments to meet and inspire others, and if we fail to meet ours, the chain is broken and momentum lost. if we embrace that responsibility instead, life is given meaning and a sense of fulfillment achieved.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qdTus1hB5Fw

[Daozen]

I'm really impressed by Jordan Peterson on so many levels. I've been binge watching him the last 2 months. I don't really like it when he's fencing with those loony lefty women, but almost everything else he does is very, very powerful. I think he's a diplomat straight from the gates of hell.

I could go on and on about what I like about him, Mike.... but maybe we could collect some quotes from his videos here. He says so many things that I forget to write them down.

I will hang out on this thread tonight...

***

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=sd7dSHU4BKs

- Going beyond binary and division.
- How to have more nuanced conversations.
- Chapter 9 in 12 rules for life. Influenced by Carl Rodgers.
- Client must be WILLING to undergo therapy.
- Don't waste time with people who think the know a lot.
- People are ridiculously interesting.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=_BIgIDAcY3g

Auto-generated transcript.

the other way of looking at it and this is actually the accurate way of looking at it is that you're in a network you're a node in a network and so you can do a little bit of arithmetic very rapidly and just figure out how powerful you are you know a thousand people you're gonna know more than that over the course of your life but let's say a thousand for the sake of argument for now they know a thousand people that means that you're one person away from a million people and two persons away from a billion people and you're the center of that network and now the way networks work is that information propagates in a networked manner so don't underestimate the power of your speech now you know Western culture is Logo-centric let's say it okay so we'll say yeah that's just fine that's exactly what it is it's predicated on
the idea of the logos that the logos is the sacred element of Western culture and what does that mean it means that your capacity for speech is divine it's the thing that generates order from
chaos and then sometimes turns pathological order into chaos when it has to don't underestimate the power of truth there's nothing more powerful now in order to speak what you might regard as the truth

*

You might have to pay a price for that, but that's OK. You're going to have to pay a price for every bloody thing you do. You have to choose which poison you're going to take, that's all.

*

you don't get to choose to not pay a
price you get to choose which poison
you're going to take that's it
so if you're going to stand up for
something stand up for your truth it'll
it'll shape you because people will
respond and object and tell you why
you're a fool and a biased moron and why
you're ignorant and then if you listen
to them you'll be just that let much
less like that the next time you say
something and if you do that for five
years you'll be so damn tough and
articulate and able to communicate and
withstand pressure that you won't even
recognize yourself and then you'll be a
force to contend with and you don't get
to wait until

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wca0dAv1aaQ

- "Jung: No tree can reach up to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell."

[RunningDeer]

Posted by Daozen (here)
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[Orph]

Posted by Mike (here)

Lets operate on the assumption that we all have unique talents. Right off the bat you turned this into a fantasy discussion by "assuming" we all have talents. Let's assume the Easter Bunny is real. Who's to say we all have talents.

I think we all take our gifts for granted, and often have to be pushed to exercise them. because sometimes it just feels like work, right? Using your talents should never feel like work, IMO. If it feels like work, then that probably means you're doing something out of obligation. I shouldn't have to owe anybody anything. Nor should I have to owe the universe anything.

The value of embracing and refining our talents is found in the joy and inspiration it gives to others. In this way, these talents aren't exclusively ours; they belong to everyone, and there is indeed a moral responsibility to share them imo. Nope. We need to be our own selves and let the chips fall where they may. The idea of "moral responsibility" is misguided IMO.

If you have a talent, you will know because it brings you joy "regardless" of what it may mean to anybody else. I'm just really, really against the idea there there is any kind of "obligation" or "responsibility".

--- I AM ---

That in itself is enough. I may choose to be lazy, or I may choose to be a hard worker. If I choose to be lazy, then "in a manner of speaking" I may be cheating myself, and the universe, by not engaging my talents. Being given an opportunity to experience something and not following up on it. Missing out on what could have been. This may be do to laziness, or fear, or ................

But regardless, it's still my choice. My free will. If something becomes an obligation or responsibility, then you kind of take free will out of the equation.

[Mike]

Posted by Orph (here)

Posted by Mike (here)

Lets operate on the assumption that we all have unique talents. Right off the bat you turned this into a fantasy discussion by "assuming" we all have talents. Let's assume the Easter Bunny is real. Who's to say we all have talents.

I think we all take our gifts for granted, and often have to be pushed to exercise them. because sometimes it just feels like work, right? Using your talents should never feel like work, IMO. If it feels like work, then that probably means you're doing something out of obligation. I shouldn't have to owe anybody anything. Nor should I have to owe the universe anything.

The value of embracing and refining our talents is found in the joy and inspiration it gives to others. In this way, these talents aren't exclusively ours; they belong to everyone, and there is indeed a moral responsibility to share them imo. Nope. We need to be our own selves and let the chips fall where they may. The idea of "moral responsibility" is misguided IMO.

If you have a talent, you will know because it brings you joy "regardless" of what it may mean to anybody else. I'm just really, really against the idea there there is any kind of "obligation" or "responsibility".

--- I AM ---

That in itself is enough. I may choose to be lazy, or I may choose to be a hard worker. If I choose to be lazy, then "in a manner of speaking" I may be cheating myself, and the universe, by not engaging my talents. Being given an opportunity to experience something and not following up on it. Missing out on what could have been. This may be do to laziness, or fear, or ................

But regardless, it's still my choice. My free will. If something becomes an obligation or responsibility, then you kind of take free will out of the equation.

fair enough Orph, i hear you.

i'm definitely not trying to eradicate free will from the equation.

i actually think we are sort of saying something similar but just using different language.

that feeling you get when you know you should be refining and practicing your talents, that nagging thing that just won't go away...that's the "obligation" and "responsibility" i'm referring to. maybe if you just chose another word there we'd be closer to agreement? not sure.

i don't know that "I Am" is enough for most humans, otherwise we'd all be in the lotus position just sitting in caves and so forth. most humans have a desire to enter the play occurring here on earth, to challenge themselves in unique ways by meeting their inherent obligations to themselves and others by embracing personal responsibility..which inevitably involves discipline and goal-setting and the deployment of one's talents to assist and lift others...and also to simply experience the joy of expression. that's my take anyway

Daozen, i'm glad you're feeling enthusiasm for Peterson! i sort of view him as a modern day shaman cloaked in professor's clothing. what appeals to me most about him is his practical, pragmatic approach to people and things, but i think there's quite a bit about mysticism that he wants to say but feels as though he can't at the moment. i'm excited about his next book.

it feels mildly obnoxious referencing my own threads here, but i have started a few Peterson-related threads you may enjoy:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ian-And-A-Poet

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...Like-Giving-Up

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...itive-Too-Safe

[Mike]

the obligation to do or not do what we inherently know we should goes way beyond us. here Peterson explains we're a node in a network, and that our actions or inactions reverberate much further than we could ever imagine....this right here is what i'm really driving at

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM

[Daozen]

And this one. He even talks about the Messiah.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=vUywkaYTQ8Y

Good writing, Dostoyevsky, Ayn Rand, Enemies and Christ's Inquisition...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=cKLNzAV4ENc

[Orph]

Posted by Mike (here)

fair enough Orph, i hear you.

i actually think we are sort of saying something similar but just using different language.

I too think we're on the same page, just seeing it a little different. When I was just maybe three or four years old, I saw my brother hop on a bike and ride off down the street. Off to whatever "journey" awaited him. Well, I knew right then and there I needed to learn how to ride that bike.

A day or two later, the bike is in the garage, so, here's my chance. I walked the bike out to the street (because I had to stand on the curb to get on the bike). Once on the bike, I push off and go wobbling down the street. Then I get to the end of the street, and, ..... what do I do now? I don't know how to stop, I don't know how to turn. I realized there was nothing I could do but crash. So, I tried turning the bike and .... Crash. I knew that was going to happen, so I accepted that result. I picked myself up, got back on the bike (going in the opposite direction), and off I go.

I don't remember how many (or how few) times it took me to get the hang of it, but I learned how to ride a bike. The point is, I had an inner drive and determination to ride that bike. It's something I was absolutely going to learn. But it wasn't an obligation. And this is where we seem to disagree.

The impetus for a child to walk. The drive for a person to be a gold medalist. The desire to eat a pizza. This inner "push" that we all have, (to wildly varying degrees), is just something to get us off our ass, so to speak. Some people have a lot more push than others, but I just don't see it as an obligation.

[Agape]

In terms of obligations and ethical responsibility, I’d say we have two major obligations , two or three I guess.

The first one from my perspective would be to know, know Thyself so to say, by understanding your own body, mind, experiences , life even you know others too and can be meaningful for them, on all walks of Life.
So the first responsibility from me would be the willingness to know, learn about self and others and every form of life here, instead presumed responsibility to “do” something. Know deeply, have complete insight, do not contain yourself in guesses and quotes and presumed “I know”. Walk far enough till you “know really” without doubts.

The idea of “doing first” is often childish even if its proponents consider themselves “the most mature( and adult)”, they’re eternal activists, rhetoricians, salvation experts and missionaries because they want to “do” but forget that 99% of our experience here on Earth is learning experience.

There’s no end to secular knowing of course. Problem with many adults is they’re forced to accept roles and embrace some form of activism that is highly praised and financially rewarding early in life instead being on path of students.
But you’d notice that those who don’t give up on path of study and mental training stay flexible, open minded and informed for their lifetime and there’s always good meaning in meeting with such individuals.

The second important ethical obligation we have I feel, is “don’t cause harms”.

Or as it’s known to medical professionals Primum non nocere.
That is, if you can’t help at least don’t cause harms. Don’t act without thorough understanding and examining the cause. Do not experiment with life and living beings by intervention that can’t be facilitated.

As a matter of fact, every action is far costlier in its consequences than inaction unless it is the Right Action.
Right action would be like removing thorn from your heel. There’s no doubt about the cause and effect relationship of right actions.
No matter how many talents and skills you may have, determining the “right action” in case of any human situation requires understanding of the situation very well.

There are so called “experts” who starve the hungry and feed the obese. Rob the poor and feed the rich. Give their cloth to their neighbours and run around naked.
Some hear about being selfless and confuse it with knowing too little to go with.

Some do lots of “good” with sticks in their hands, litarilly.


The third obligation I feel we have is about not giving up on learning. Learning something new everyday and being in Present Moment.

Most people either dwell on their past or run from presence to future ..relatively speaking, no day and no environment is precious enough to them.
Yet, there’s so much to learn everyday.
Learning does not mean quite Knowing. It may not bring instant results. Life generally , never happens in an instant. People who want instant soup and instant enlightenment often turn up impatient and foolish at some point of their life.

Learning means being patient and tolerant, with own self and others. Learning to see beyond perspectives, differences and mistakes but not closing the doors to new information when it arrives.
Accepting we are here so we have to suffer a deal.



Well anyway. Maybe there are some of the most meaningful things to do but life is short so it’s good to Know first.

[Daozen]

Fullfillment is an interesting world. It means feeling that you did something meaningful. It also means to fulfill a contract, or a promise. The opening post in this thread nearly word for word types out my internal dialogue over the last 2 years. I got tired, too tired to pick up an electric guitar or build the apps I know I have to make.

Lets go beyond responsibility + moral obligation, words which sometimes buzz people the wrong way. Maybe they remind us of a geography teacher telling us to memorize pointless facts.

- As you get older, you are in danger of becoming less employable, unless you develop a skill set. The game is more brutal than the OP describes. Don't nuture your talents? NO JOB. NO RENT. NO FOOD. The jaws of homelessness and a tent city await.
- We are having this conversation on the backs of the hard work of generations of people who laid in copper wires, set up an electrical grid, hand built transistor chips, set up the internet and wrote forum software.
- Fulfilling a promise we may have made to our spiritual ancestors. If I shirk my word, will my guides and angels get bored? And what mischievous demon will step in?
- If we don't do something to set up better organic infrastructure.... our children, and us, will walk straight into a control grid.

When I was younger I could have been learning engineering, computer programming, farming and some other useful stuff. TPTB convinced my teenage self that no, that stuff is BORRRRRIIINGGG MAN. All I needed was some DM boots, a flannel shirt, rolling tobacco and some dumbass music. Boy did I get gypped. Slacker is a PSY-OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im making up for it now.

The price for not fulfilling my promises and using my talents could be homelessness and even an early death.

[Mike]

well said Daozen

i might also add that(speaking as a man here) as stale as all this may sound, it's worth considering this: if you don't accept personal responsibility and don't embrace your obligation to yourself and humanity by expressing your talents and so forth, no self-respecting woman is ever going to f**k you. and lets face it, that's a huge reason why we're doing all this sh!t

[Daozen]

Civilization is the sweet spot between hypergamy and testosterone.

It's true, as you get older... it's contribute to the species or get left in the corner. Ricky Gervais was an unknown til he was 40.... Jordan Peterson is close to 60 and loved by his students. It's not exactly like young people are ageist... but if you don't show some quiet, innovative leadership.. they will rightfully think.. who the f**k is this guy?

The bright side is... there's so many people milling around nowadays... when you raise your flag, show even a hint of charismatic leadership, and the gates of heaven begin to open.

[Michi]

Do we have a moral obligation to do what's meaningful?

I wouldn't say OBLIGATION but personal choice based on ones "priorities" and earlier made decisions.
Doing what's meaningful is different from person to person.

For Whitney Houston for example, it was an obsession to become the best one can be.
She expressed in a very touching way her ambition in the song: "One moment in time."

One Moment in Time
by
Whitney Houston

Each day I live
I want to be
A day to give
The best of me
I'm only one
But not alone
My finest day
Is yet unknown
I broke my heart
Fought every gain
To taste the sweet
I face the pain
I rise and fall
Yet through it all
This much remains
I want one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams are a heartbeat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will feel
I will feel eternity
I've lived to be
The very best
I want it all
No time for less
I've laid the plans
Now lay the chance
Here in my hands
Give me one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams are a heartbeat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will feel
I will feel eternity
You're a winner for a lifetime
If you seize that one moment in time
Make it shine
Give me one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams are a heartbeat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will be
I will be
I will be free
I will be
I will be free

Also the famous quote from Marianne Williamson puts "what is meaningful" in it's proper correlation:

Our Deepest Fear
By Marianne Williamson

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness
That most frightens us.

We ask ourselves
Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.

Your playing small
Does not serve the world.
There's nothing enlightened about shrinking
So that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We are all meant to shine,
As children do.
We were born to make manifest
The glory of God that is within us.

It's not just in some of us;
It's in everyone.

And as we let our own light shine,
We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
As we're liberated from our own fear,
Our presence automatically liberates others.

[Mike]

- know thyself

- Don't cause harm

- don't give up on learning.

Hi Agape, yep, these would be on my list of moral obligations as well. Thanks for including these.

The archetypal "hero's journey" involves courageously travelling into the unknown and returning to share that knowledge with the world. This requires action, or doing. It's how civilization moves forward, i think

We should all strive to do no harm, but in order to discover and advance, we have to occasionally risk doing some harm. If there was no risk, it wouldn't be meaningful.

I think it was Gandhi who said "live as if you were about to die tomorrow, learn as if you'll live forever." Of course the point is to put that knowledge into action, right?

It might lessen the dogmatism of the way I've worded things here to suggest that the moral obligation is also to yourself. I'm not suggesting our talents make us a slave to the world, or that we have to be performing fleas or something. But it is prudent to understand that we are indeed nodes in a network,and our acts or inability to act can potentially effect thousands or even millions of people

[Ernie Nemeth]

I too agree with the op. There is no more important work than bringing your truth to the world.

But there is no method, no twelve step process, to follow. It is as unique a journey as each person themselves are.

The trick is to meet yourself halfway. Halfway between your love and your fear. Halfway between your self and the other. Halfway between Self and Spirit. It is a knife edge we walk in this incarnation, halfway between illusion and reality.

It is this knife edge that some call the middle way or the third path.

Remember that you are always halfway between what you are and what you are aware of - meet yourself there...

[Mike]

here's what inspired this thread actually...

i met my parents and my uncle at a bar few days back. i didn't really want to go initially, i was tired and weary and not feeling very social. but my uncles' wife (my aunt) has been battling cancer, and my Dad had said he'd probably like to see me and all that, so i went.

anyway, tho initially tired, i found my form after a couple beers, and my tongue got a little loose and the jokes started flowing. it was contagious. my uncle, initially a bit depressed, joined in, and before long we were all in hysterics. we went on for hours like that; it was like an elegant, coordinated dance....no one was missing! My Dad told some hilarious stories i'd never heard before and my Mom chimed in at all the right times, and we were all in tears. it was a fantastic night.

next day i was talking to my Dad, and he said my uncle had told him that i'd really lifted him up that night, that i'd totally changed his mood and was happy i'd decided to come out after all.

well, naturally i felt very good about this. proud, almost. i'd done something worthwhile, i'd helped someone in a moment of need. i was very tired that day but deep down i knew i *needed* to be there....and that even had i stayed home and laid in bed and watched tv or something, i wouldn't have found peace because i intuitively knew my energy was required somewhere else.

this wasn't some heroic act, obviously. and i'm not trying to beat my own drum, just trying to provide an example. the moral obligation needn't be some profound thing, it can be as small as showing up at a bar to make someone laugh. that person, also being a node in a network, will likely have a much more pleasant interaction with the next person they meet, and on and on it goes. small acts can have profound effects.

my talent, it turns out, is telling sh!tty jokes from time to time or telling funny stories, and if i hole myself up in a cave to contemplate my naval for the next 20 years, i'm not doing anyone any good at all - i'm just littering the earth with my piss and sh!t and consuming all her resources. in my view, if i'm not exercising my talents now and again, i really have no business being here. i'd be a liability, and being a node in a network, it effects others in ways i can't even imagine. and that's where the personal responsibility comes in

[Ernie Nemeth]

The idea of nodes in a network reminded me of how we are always halfway between here and there, non-localised, so to speak.

That was quite a weekend, Mike. Atta go

[bearcow]

Did Rosa Parks set out to live some "meaningful" life when she resolutely kept her bottom parked in her bus seat that fateful day? I highly doubt it, It's far more likely that she just said to herself "I'm not gonna take any of this **** from Mr. bus driver and synchronicity took care of the rest.

Just try to improve yourself.

[Mike]

Posted by bearcow (here)
Did Rosa Parks set out to live some "meaningful" life when she resolutely kept her bottom parked in her bus seat that fateful day?

this is the perfect example of the "node in a network" concept i've been writing about here. this seemingly small act has resonated across the decades and become a powerful symbol of righteous rebellion and equality among all people.

the type of person who would do something like this would most certainly see the importance of living a meaningful life. this was a highly principled act, very courageous, and very likely thought out ahead of time to some degree.

if she were interviewed after this historic event and asked what her message to humanity was, i doubt she'd shrug her shoulders and offer a "eh, just try to improve yourself, ya know?"

[Daozen]

Something similar happened to me in early spring. I went to a bar with a mix of English and foreign students. It was good, but I noticed the conversation was stilted or vapid sometimes. The next Sunday morning I had a daydream as I woke up. I could go to the shop, buy a large glass vase, and fill it full of strips of paper with interesting questions. I nearly didn't do it, but I ended up in the bar with a glass jar full of stimulating questions. There were 4-6 people crowded round the table the whole night... and one chick was even passively aggressively competing to sit next to me. These were the same people who virtually ignored me the week before. Oh my. suddenly I was the mad inventor and talk of the town. The next week, I didn't bring my stupid jar, the conversation went back to normal, and I went back to half-invisible.

Why invisible again? Because I was shirking my duty to civilization, wasting my gifts, being lazy, and expecting something for nothing. My job is to be the mad professor in the basement making useful and beautiful things. If I waste that gift, the angels will desert me, and in steps Old Scratch.

Men are s'posed to build things. Earth is a BYOG party. Turn up empty handed and you may get sent home.

>

But then I ask myself. Is lighting up a pub table enough in these times? For ones parents, sure... talk with loved ones is the basis of life. But what next? There's probably a parallel dimension where Jordan Peterson is an unknown dude, but the cleverest guy in the local bar. Is that enough? If you are reading this you may be way below potential.... just like I feel I am. It's not for me to judge if you're below what you could be... only nagging feelings from the spirit can remind us of that.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jhGI0X6jhSQ