If there were no borders anywhere

[thepainterdoug]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I was wondering everyones opinions on this.

In my common sense, all of us come here to earth as equal beings . The entire earth is ours, each one of us, and we should be able to roam the globe and pitch our tent wherever we decide, co habitant with others.

Yet we humans have cornered off sections for some and not others. Is this a natural and resonable occurrence that unraveled, or should it of been stopped along the way at some more elvoveled point in society? .

Starting today, if all borders were taken down, what would happen? Even though the liberal, fair minded side of me says yes, the reality of this world and what would ensue tells me no can do .

I mean this as a true reality, applied to your own life, home, neighborhood, etc.

opinions and comments , welcome

t y

[Praxis]

I think the discussion will be difficult as it would be tainted by economic issues. The results of dropping all border in our current situation would be disasterous. Those in ecnomically and environmentally destroyed places would flee to non destroyed.

Lets take the example of the Island of Hispanola. The satellite image tells you all you need to know about the island. What would happen to the DR if and Haiti with no border? Now imagine that on a global scale.

Humans under economic stress tend to deplete natural resources(think locusts).

If we could handle that issue( a huge task I know) then I imagine the results would be unexpected to most.

I imagine that many would stay exactly where they are even if they could go anywhere. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that the main driver of migration is economic circumstances. If people didnt have economics to worry about, do you think many people would leave their locale?

Yes many would take trips but then come back. I am asking about moving to a new place to live.

[Bill Ryan]

I'll start an interesting discussion with this [possible!] analogy.

Doug, the world might then be a little like you not having any wall or fence around your property. Anyone at all could wander along and camp on your lawn, and do whatever they wanted.

Maybe build their own house, right on your vegetable garden.

How would you feel about that?

[Blacklight43]

I could see a world without borders if we had a world without governance and money and possessions. Until then my vision doesn't see it happening.

[Sunny-side-up]

Probably utter chaos 0.o

I can understand your desire for border-less world, that would be great but the population would need to be filtered; with like minded/soled living together on their own planets doh.

We are here together for reasons, one of the biggest being 'learn to live together' another being 'experience the pains of living together'.

Here in the material realm some borders/ boundaries have to be I guess.

PS: Just last night I couldn't park my car at home, the whole street was cordoned off because of a stabbing

[ulli]

Here is my belief and my honest opinion, which took me many decades to develop. The question “Why are we here?” was haunting me since adolescence and I got the answers via strange coincidences, or what some might call intuition, or downloads.

Our soul essence is eternal, but cannot easily be accessed because of amnesia. We discover when we are born that there is a clean slate to draw or scribble on.
I believe that there are trillions of options where we can go to explore an infinite universe, and chosing this particular planet is done consciously, because it is the one and only, and totally unique planet where our soul can have free will. Here our soul can choose it’s lessons, or its struggles, or its rewards, and even its punishments. Whatever is needed to fulfill our original intent, of why we wanted to be born here. Striving to find the answer as to why will produce a response from the universe, over time.
The restrictions we then encounter, which at the time may appear to some totally unacceptable, and to others protective of their personal needs, are exactly what helps guide us to find our place, or path, for our soul to carry on its exploration of the infinite creation.

The product of our earthly journey only becomes evident after we leave the body. Since we cannot take with us any of our material possessions, we have to look for more spiritual qualities, that remain with our essential identity, and these can only be the virtues we developed during our lifetime. (Or lost, which is the downside of not knowing what we aimed for in the first place).
Idealism to create heaven on earth seems very strong right now, and I can feel it in myself, with my obsession to leave behind for posterity a paradisical botanical garden. I just have to be careful that we put this project into the right hands, by making a will, like a university, or some responsible foundation. The boundaries of our property are essential, as we live in a high crime zone, not only of petty theft, of cell phones, wallets, and bicycles, but even gangs who snatch kids from our neighbor, the local village school, to sell to organ harvestors or sex traffickers. Costa Rica police managed to catch over 20 members of this gang, men and women from the Philippines, who had targeted rural areas of Latin America, where they thought they could operate without being detected.

So my wish for idealists out there is to discover that this world has a vast spectrum of service to self and service to other people, that cannot be changed to a uniformly angelic world overnight, and that is why boundaries are necessary to stop it all becoming a uniform swamp. And perhaps becoming free of boundaries it is not even its destiny in the bigger scheme of things, although I would like to see the extreme ends of that spectrum to be curtailed a bit.

[Satori]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I'll start an interesting discussion with this [possible!] analogy.

Doug, the world might then be a little like you not having any wall or fence around your property. Anyone at all could wander along and camp on your lawn, and do whatever they wanted.

Maybe build their own house, right on your vegetable garden.

How would you feel about that?

Or, to take it a step further, come right on into your house and make themselves right at home with no intention of living, or leaving, there peacefully.

[Intranuclear]

Well, borders are not "real" are they? I mean they should be looked upon as territories. If you look at any predatory species of which we are indeed one, they all have territories and jealously guard them until a stronger one comes and takes over. All territories are only as defensible as the local resources allow. Even in counties you have cities where each is "protected" by their own police departments. Gangs do the same, or the different Mafias (larger and more organised gangs).

Looking at it from another angle, our bodies are territories and anything invading like bacteria and viruses are resisted by drugs or whatnot. Without the resistance, well, it is a takeover, right?

Looking even deeper, at the individual cells, well, there are borders there too. When viruses infiltrate, the cell's mechanism is hijacked and then anything can happen.

Language also is a border/territory. Why have all different languages guaranteeing that misunderstandings will be most abundant.
Withing languages you have borders too, like jargon which are intended to encode information to be both efficient and possibly to increase privacy.

As long as there is non-homogeneity, there will be implied borders/territories.

As Bill suggested, if a stranger came unannounced and slept in your bed...well, some might welcome that sometimes, but clearly not all the time.

Looking at larger scales like solar systems, well each solar system is a separate entity.

Even larger scales, galaxies and so on.

Back to borders.
Europe.
Will that work?
Look at Brexit.
Is that the start?

[Ernie Nemeth]

When you get on a roller coaster, you dont get on for lessons learned but for the totally pointless thrill of the ride. And on a roller coaster you know who you are and were, remember your history, and bring all your useless skills with you(useless on the ride at least).

[thepainterdoug]

OK SOME CLARITY FIRST/ from my OP "Starting today, if all borders were taken down, what would happen? Even though the liberal, fair minded side of me says yes, the reality of this world and what would ensue tells me no can do ."

so as you can see above in my OP Im not advocating no borders . My question was spurred on by an Immigration attorney friend I have.

all your responses are great. And I agree, and so we all agree we should have borders. and thus they should be protected, and thus a fence ,a partition, a mote , and perhaps even a wall...

Ulli/ thank you for some of the best writing and summation. I study a Course in Miracles and was just writing a friend something analogous to yours. Well done!!

and Bill, if brussels sprouts, he can build a condo upon them!

[Nasu]

Interesting thought. I think it's a lovely idea on paper, but as Bill and others have rightly pointed out, without any rules for land use the place would be a shambles. The current state of play is more about tax liability than being overly or under restrictive on where people live. Governments seek to tax those within their borders, ergo one's location of residence is where one is taxed and therefore lives, at least for six months out of the year.

Perhaps in some future idyll without the need for tax, or the need for us to exploit other region's resources and without poverty and desperation, such an idea take form?..x.... N

[thepainterdoug]

I read an article on the women of Central America, kids 8 years old being raped, murdered, and the women fleeing towards Mexico, and hopefully to end up here. Well they are turned away, sent back to that life.
So i was born here, this place on the blue ball, and they had the misfortune of being born there.
some roll of the human dice it seems.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

In the Beginning... a Man. Just a simple, rustic man, who owns a small farm, just a little farm that provides well enough for the varied hill-dwellers scattered across the valley. This Man he rises with the break of dawn, sets to his chores, hard, grim, insufferable chores, until weary, lonely, he retires to his well-earned rest with the setting of the sun... and he watches that red sun sink beneath the far edge of the world, and he wonders what it all means.

Quite soon another man appeared across the way, a Stranger beyond a strip of hedgerow and a row of elm and alder trees that defined the border of his little farm, and he is anxious. He watches the Stranger from time to time working on his own little plot of land, feeding his goats, working the hoe, and he cannot shake his misgivings that a scheme is at hand, some intrigue or other, which is out to hurt him, usurp him, and steal his land and living. A plan of war fills his thought, but first the Man will speak to the Stranger and learn exactly what his intentions are.

"Good day," he says one afternoon, poking his head over the hedge. "Who are you, and what may you be doing?!"
"Hello there," answers the Stranger. "I'm ploughing a channel for my crops, what else? Excuse me please, but I'm very busy if you don't mind, I have a wide land here, don't you agree? I've got a lot to do today..."

And the Man looked, and he saw that this was so, and he was jealous. The Stranger's plot was far larger than his own – good land as well, fertile with an abundant lie of deep dark soil. He wished in fact he had found it first.

A novel, and quite advanced idea then impressed itself upon him, and he spoke even before the notion had fully formed. "Say, why don't we divide this land between us?" he suggested thoughtfully. "Two hands will make half the time, and we'll both be better off besides."
"Why should I agree to that?" the Stranger replied sourly. "Half the land means half the profit. Be off with you now, before I stick you with my fork."

The Man was dismayed by this turn of events. Why had the world turned against him? Who was this 'other' who had come, and why did he have so much more than him?

For a long while they both kept to themselves, ploughed their own way, and never a word passed between them. Sometimes, quite by chance, their work brought them to the edge of their fields and they would meet face-to-face, over the hedgerow. And then they would fight. They would grapple and spit and roll in the mud like pigs.

And on one such occasion, even as the blood was drying after the last quarrel, the Man spoke up, having had his fill of the conflict. He had nothing to lose now, except more blood, and he considered that neither one of them seemed to be gaining anything out of it anyway. So he voiced a different idea to his neighbour, the Stranger. "Listen now to what I say," he began in earnest, approaching the hedgerow. The Stranger on the other side looked on suspiciously. "The land you have is wide and fertile, I agree. But I have seen you work that slope yonder, and it seems a difficult toil to me. But listen here. Give me this portion of land near to the hedge, only this nearer field here to make furrows for my seeds. In return I would give you my oxen for that slope of yours. It is long in the hoof and broad in the shoulder, it would make lighter work of it than your own tired beast."

The Stranger thought this a very good idea. For a moment pride almost outmatched his better sense, as he made ready a punch in continuation of the quarrel. But only for a moment. He held out a muddy palm and they shook hands on it. "Very well," he said. "Let us try. It is probably better this way after all..."

It was an excellent arrangement, and both prospered. Very soon two farms became one much larger farm. Both Men took families, and about them others gathered around them to create a small community, and they flourished altogether, triumphant in their accomplishments and in the bounty that was freely produced for all.

Both came to clearly understand that they really were the same after all, and in seeing the wider perspective the earlier distrust of one another had been rather petty, senseless, but it had provided them nonetheless with a valuable insight into who they truly were...

*

Then one day, long after the first Man and the Stranger had passed away, the elders of the community learned of another settlement, like their own, across the valley, and they wondered. Other farms, other people, other Strangers. In fear of what this might mean they built a wide wall around them to protect what was theirs. And that was needed, for a time came when the Strangers across the valley turned on them, jealous of the prosperity of their land, and the wealthy lot in which they flourished.

But, after a long contest of distrust and rivalry the two communities decided it would be better to open their gates to the others after all – to allow merchants to pass back and forth to trade at market, because that way, both peoples would benefit, and thrive together as a whole.

It was an excellent arrangement. It served to profit both parties indeed, and not merely in commerce, but from the exchange of techniques in cultivation that were new to the other, to crafts, customs and ideas. Young and old alike were thoroughly enriched for the experience. Very soon villages yet farther apart entered into the fellowship, and they built a castle and with it created a centralized structure of organization, of leadership... and they made a Kingdom. They flourished altogether, triumphant in their accomplishments and in the bounty that was freely produced for all.

Both communities came to understand that they really were the same after all, and in seeing the wider perspective the earlier distrust of one another had been rather petty, senseless, but it had provided them nonetheless with a valuable insight into who they truly were...

*

And then one day, when the two valley communities were bustling towns; thriving centres in what was now a greater whole, the King and his Lords learned of another Kingdom, like their own, away, in a far strange land, and they wondered. Other kingdoms and realms, other people who were strange to them. In fear of what this might mean they made a garrison of fighting men to protect what was theirs.

The King sent out his men across the plain, and there they clashed with men of the rival Kingdom in battle. Rain battered down. The air was shot with blood. For king and banner they sang their songs of home long into the night; they fought, and they slew, and they died. The land was burned, towns were razed. It was savage campaign almost without end, so it seemed.

After a long and bitter time the Kingdoms at last arrived at a parley, a discourse opened, for it seemed better to find a common ground for the greater good of both, lest both be destroyed. One King's son married the other King's daughter, and a new and prosperous time came to pass.

It was an excellent arrangement. They threw their flags away, those flags and banners which had pitted one Kingdom against the other, and they gathered their resources together, and it served to profit both Kingdoms in wealth and influence, and very soon two Kingdoms became a province, and one province became many, and they made a Country. They flourished altogether, triumphant in their accomplishments and in the bounty that was freely produced for all...

The people who were once of two Kingdoms came to clearly understand that they really were the same after all, and in seeing the wider perspective the earlier distrust of one another had been rather petty, senseless, but it had provided them nonetheless with a valuable insight into who they truly were...

*

A silly little story perhaps, and I'm waffling, but does it not reflect the reality of where we came from? And does not this story continue, and continue? This is just our Journey, I believe, separation evolving into unity. Two farms becoming a community. Two communities a kingdom. Two kingdoms a country. And maybe one day, many countries a planet. And even there it won't end. Not by a long way.

The moral: unity is humanity's destiny. One day we'll knock down all the hedgerows, but we're not quite there yet.

[enigma3]

Open borders would first severely dumb down wages in developed countries. That is one goal of the rich bastards.
Then, with so much holier than thou attitude in so many places, chaos would ensue as each group fights to be king of the pyramid. And that is another goal of the rich bastards who want one world government. Create so much chaos that people will demand a NWO one world government. Satanic of course.

[Wind]

Ideals are peaceful, history is violent. Borders ultimately are artificial, even the astronauts in the space can see that. All of us ought to see ourselves as citizens of Earth. There is no one nation under God, there is only one Earth under God. However, from a logistical standpoint I do think borders are necessary. Without some rules and structure there would be chaos. Also when people take orderliness to the extreme then they want to be building walls and isolating themselves from the "others".

I'm sure many of us would like to see a united Earth, but considering humanity's current state of collective consciousness, we are just not ready for that yet. One day we will be.

[East Sun]

Sorry I did npt read all the posts and may not be qualified to answer your question. Off the bat I would say there would be total chaos.

People who are now in positions long fought for would be inundated by others not as fortunate and be devastated by loosing mostly all they had. When I say "long fought for" I mean that they reaped the results of an inheritance that they had no control over and should not be blamed for. We should not be blamed for what our direct ancestors did.

What we inherited is rightfully ours, no question. Others also benefit from that. That is not to say that we should not do all we can to help those less fortunate.

The constant problem is the control of our gvts, on others and on us. That is what we need to be aware of constantly.

[AriG]

Great thread Doug and certainly a concept that I have pondered. The ludicrous nature of borders while we live on a sphere.

Perhaps there should be a distinction between borders and boundaries. A border being a fixed space, while a boundary would be a self imposed limit- a line in the sand, either physical, spiritual or intellectual of which, we expect others to respect including Our sovereign selves and any claimed or owned real property attached to that sovereignty. So, is humanity mature enough to respect boundaries, thus eliminating the need for borders? Can mankind live and let live? Can we all accept the vast differences between people without the urge to change or control others? Are we generous enough in spirit to share our resources and work for a greater good independent of our own ideologies?

I don’t think we’re there yet. We would be if our world had not been corrupted and captured by service to self dark forces. It would take a monumental event (think Reagan’s speech about a common otherworldly invader) to unite us in any meaningful action capable of affecting change. Then maybe, perhaps one day.

[Sadieblue]

I think there is too many greedy people in the world for open borders and migration.
One area would be depleted of all resources, then they would move on and deplete another area. The next group would enter the newly growing resources, and re-deplete it again, not giving it time to recover....and on and on it goes until there would be nothing for anyone.

I certainly would not want to leave the area I am in, and if I should have to leave, I would want to return to here.

[rgray222]

Since man has been around borders have been contested a million times resulting in thousands of conflicts and wars. It was not until the 20th century that borders were actually solidified. So contrary to what most people think about borders today they actually serve to lessen conflicts and prevent wars.

Borders are arbitrary and political, nothing more. I think if you look out 100-300 years land ownership (by a country or individual) will seem ridiculous. Only in the last 30 years or so have people come to realize that if they own one acre or one million acres they are only temporary caretakers of land they never really owned in the first place. Also, many people (myself included) believe the earth is a living breathing organism that is very much alive. Trying to put borders on it is simply not right.

I believe mankind is clearly headed towards a borderless world controlled by one world government. A lot of people may be against this concept (I am) but I think it is pretty much unstoppable. In a perfect world without greed, corruption or crime this may be very desirable. Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world. Many times before change is accepted we have to go through some outrageously difficult circumstances before people finally settle in and accept a new way of life. I truly believe that is the direction we are inevitably moving.

I think we need to evolve down the road a bit further before we start dropping borders. We must find a way to prevent mankind from war before borders disappear. We must learn to use words, not weapons to prevent conflict. Dropping borders in today's world could put us in an unparalleled mess with regional conflicts and wars all over the globe. So the bottom line (for me) is that borders are not perfect, probably not even desirable but they do work so let's leave them up for now.

We seem to be able to exercise free free will over our daily lives but we don't appear to always have free will over some of the big picture stuff, i.e. a borderless world and one world government. Regardless of what most people want or desire some of these things seem to be pre-ordained.

[Bubu]

Posted by Satori (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I'll start an interesting discussion with this [possible!] analogy.

Doug, the world might then be a little like you not having any wall or fence around your property. Anyone at all could wander along and camp on your lawn, and do whatever they wanted.

Maybe build their own house, right on your vegetable garden.

How would you feel about that?

Or, to take it a step further, come right on into your house and make themselves right at home with no intention of living, or leaving, there peacefully.

Oh my, of course we have to dissolve boarders but not to the point where we are close enough to hear other peoples conversation or where someone is using it for their own survival. that is common sense. But there are huge unused lands and natural resources while some people can barely survive on their piece of property. Shouldn't they be allowed to occupy space that no one occupies or no one is using. country boarders should be dissolve, no one should be allowed to occupy vast expanse of land that he cannot manage on his own. Everyone should be entitled to occupy space that one occupies and everyone should be prevented from occupying space that are occupied by someone especially not my bedroom.

What i find chaotic are the opinions stated above. Its so simplistic as if a discussion from high school student. Apologies but that's how I see it.