The 'censorship' discussion

[edina]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
If it's a matter of dollars and cents, I guess the Q forum could be made public. But, if it is, it should be with the understanding that those on the thread can be challenged directly, on that thread.

In other words, it will be a free for all with booze, hookers and blow, rather than a private tea party with crustless conspiracy sandwiches. Now that would be interesting! Horrible to moderate. Call it the "gloves off" thread and a trigger warning, or just a warning and then don't bother moderating it at all. See how it goes.

People can already experience that on 8kun and Twitter.

I think what you propose here doesn't address what I described and feel is genuine real need for people, a place to take in the information without slogging through all the drama.

Is there a way to discuss the content of the Q posts in a constructive positive and collaborative manner, without antagonism and animosity?

[onawah]

He also explains very clearly how plausible arguments can be made for either side of an issue, how any tool can be weaponized, and the necessity for creating and maintaining boundaries when weapons are being employed.
What is inarguable is that much clarity and much work must go into taking on such an endeavor to do it successfully.
The real question is imho, how many are actually up to the task intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and really want to engage their time and energy into it?
I might be willing if the issue being addressed was something I cared about, but the Q material doesn't qualify as that for me.
And I really have my doubts that the divide surrounding Q can be bridged on Avalon.

Posted by Jayke (here)

Posted by onawah (here)
The first 4 minutes here describes precisely what happened when the the Q thread was public:

The rest of the discussion is very relevant too, not to mention part 1
(Thanks to Bill's post here: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1330477 )
I think that discussion (parts 1 & 2) is "required viewing" for anyone who is sincerely concerned with the issues at hand on this thread.

He does make a good case for why the Q thread should be viewable publicly. At the 24mins time stamp:

...I don't have a chance of possibly engaging in a constructive or meaningful way, so all I can do is villainize them and engage in warfare and then to various degrees win or lose but to some degree all lose — and like that's a very very simple thing I would suggest everyone do — if you tend to be left-leaning and most of your friends kind of agree with you about climate change or abortion rights or whatever, I would actually really like you to find follow-up in Shapiro, follow the proper pterion institute, follow Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute, and actually seek to understand both where they're sharing things that you actually didn't know, and even where you really disagree, why it's compelling with an answer that isn't just because they're all stupid, because you actually don't have any chance of healing a culture war otherwise, you only have a chance of engaging in it.

and if someone happens to be more right oriented, and of course saying right-left is itself over simplified, but we'll use that as a simplification for all of the perspectives that are engaged in some kind of warfare that actually need to be engaged in some kind of more generative dialectical conversation. Study intersectionality, like follow some of the thinkers that are actually giving arguments for and history, for why some of that's important. Actually read some of the postmodern thinkers, read Foucault and darrid on whatever— before just saying all post-modernism is stupid —and again look to see are there true insights and critiques in there and can you factor them to understand them and even where you don't think they're true. Can you see why they're compelling? and so that's a very very easy step so I'm speaking to why it's important because I think that we have more issues in the world today from now weaponized drones.

The Buddha called this technique Samapatti in ‘the complete enlightenment’ sutra (1 of only 3 techniques needed to end all suffering in the world). The renaissance artists knew it as syncretism. A time tested mind-expanding technique to build bridges and cultivate more nuanced rhetorical diplomacy.

Only 30 minutes in to his presentation, I’ll watch the rest tomorrow, (midnight now in the UK). Thanks for sharing Onawah, his thoughts are very pertinent to the task at hand—bridging the divide .

[Chester]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
In other words, it will be a free for all with booze, hookers and blow...

...should calm things down, no?

satire is hard to type

[onawah]

The War on Sensemaking goes infinitely more deeply into propaganda and how it is used than I have ever seen done anywhere else, and explains it all so clearly there really is no problem in making sense of it as long as the person trying has sufficient intelligence and clarity, and that is the real question.
Frankly, I don't think that " the general public could be brought up to speed very quickly on the many topics discussed in this forum".
There are way too many variables.
After watching only part of Sensemaking so far, I am committed to finishing watching it before anything else--it's that good.

Posted by edina (here)
I agree onawah, in that people were trying to make sense of the information.

Different people have different processes in how they do this.

One of the first points laid out in the Q information was about propaganda and how it is used.

I think that was the underlying basic concept for people to get, before they could take in the overall information.

Over the course of the last few years I've expanded that into understanding its relationship to hybrid warfare, information warfare.

I wonder if anyone here has ever tried to think strategically about how the general public could be brought up to speed very quickly on the many topics discussed in this forum.

This looks to be an excellent video series and one that will be good to keep in mind as I think more about how people can make sense of the coming deluge of information.

It's long, I imagine the other videos are, too. I have quite a few long videos I'm already behind on watching, so it will be some time before I can get these watched.

Thanks for bringing them up here.

[edina]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
rather than a private tea party with crustless conspiracy sandwiches.

This is too funny, someone just shared this tweet with me.

Camelot Q bisquit tea, ...

https://twitter.com/johnmappin/statu...439667206?s=12

Uncanny coincidence... lol

[Jayke]

Posted by onawah (here)
He also explains very clearly how plausible arguments can be made for either side of an issue, how any tool can be weaponized, and the necessity for creating and maintaining boundaries when weapons are being employed.
What is inarguable is that much clarity and much work must go into taking on such an endeavor to do it successfully.
The real question is imho, how many are actually up to the task intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and really want to engage their time and energy into it?
I might be willing if the issue being addressed was something I cared about, but the Q material doesn't qualify as that for me.
And I really have my doubts that the divide surrounding Q can be bridged on Avalon.

The only reason the divide couldn’t be bridged is because those against the idea have already had their thoughts weaponised against it perhaps. Once you’ve finished watching his videos, it would be a good exercise to go back to Rachel Wymans paper on “America’s Political Paradigm Shift”, to see how her process of discursive analysis does exactly what Daniel Schmachtenberger is suggesting, takes the time to unweaponise one thoughts so they can see things objectively. Wymans conclusion is that “surprisingly” the Q material actually teaches greater discernment skills as people develop more clarity as they take the time to analyse complex information.

The real question is imho, how many are actually up to the task intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and really want to engage their time and energy into it?
I might be willing if the issue being addressed was something I cared about, but the Q material doesn't qualify as that for me.

I’m personally fine with it where it is, I enjoy the private tea party setting, without the ‘drunken, drugged up hookers’ as Autumn describes them, feeling the urge to trash the place. I’m just curious about the psychology of why people still have such an aversion to the thought of it being made public or why they had such an aversion to it being public to begin with.

How many of the objections towards the Q thread were simply weaponised thoughts? Unknowingly perhaps, but none of the objections I saw ever held up to critical and objective analysis. Even Caitlin Johnson’s critique of the Q material was deeply flawed and weaponised, but like you said not many have the ‘time or energy’ to look into it beyond the weaponised or propogandised levels. Does that mean those who do should miss out on the opportunity though?

[Tintin]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
If it's a matter of dollars and cents, I guess the Q forum could be made public. But, if it is, it should be with the understanding that those on the thread can be challenged directly, on that thread.

In other words, it will be a free for all with booze, hookers and blow, rather than a private tea party with crustless conspiracy sandwiches. Now that would be interesting! Horrible to moderate. Call it the "gloves off" thread and a trigger warning, or just a warning and then don't bother moderating it at all. See how it goes.

[emboldened]: has to be comment of the week. Thank you.That has to be one of the most original sentences ever written.

[edina]

Posted by Tintin (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
If it's a matter of dollars and cents, I guess the Q forum could be made public. But, if it is, it should be with the understanding that those on the thread can be challenged directly, on that thread.

In other words, it will be a free for all with booze, hookers and blow, rather than a private tea party with crustless conspiracy sandwiches. Now that would be interesting! Horrible to moderate. Call it the "gloves off" thread and a trigger warning, or just a warning and then don't bother moderating it at all. See how it goes.

[emboldened]: has to be comment of the week. Thank you.That has to be one of the most original sentences ever written.

I agree, it's clever and creative, very funny, and it's also disdainful.

[edina]

Posted by Jayke (here)
Once you’ve finished watching his videos, it would be a good exercise to go back to Rachel Wymans paper on “America’s Political Paradigm Shift”, to see how her process of discursive analysis does exactly what Daniel Schmachtenberger is suggesting, takes the time to unweaponise one thoughts so they can see things objectively. Wymans conclusion is that “surprisingly” the Q material actually teaches greater discernment skills as people develop more clarity as they take the time to analyse complex information.

This has certainly been my experience.

I find that if I do nothing else but simply consider the questions asked, it deepens my thinking.

The questions asked expands my thinking on the topics addressed within the Q posts.

I agree though, it does involve mental work.

Admittedly that may not be everyone's cup of tea.

[Kryztian]

I believe this article has a lot to say about the topic at hand and a lot of other topics here on Avalon.

Disinformation For Hire: How A New Breed Of PR Firms Is Selling Lies Online

One firm promised to “use every tool and take every advantage available in order to change reality according to our client's wishes.”

Peng Kuan Chin pulled out his phone, eager to show the future of online manipulation.

Unseen servers began crawling the web for Chinese articles and posts. The system quickly reorganized the words and sentences into new text. His screen displayed a rapidly increasing tally of the articles generated by his product, which he dubs the “Content Farm Automatic Collection System."

With the articles in hand, a set of websites that Peng controlled published them, and his thousands of fake social media accounts spread them across the internet, instantly sending manipulated content into news feeds, messaging app inboxes, and search results.

"I developed this for manipulating public opinion,” Peng told the Reporter, an investigative news site in Taipei, which partnered with BuzzFeed News for this article. He added that automation and artificial intelligence “can quickly generate traffic and publicity much faster than people.”

The 32-year-old wore Adidas Yeezy sneakers and a gold Rolex as he sat in a two-story office in the industrial part of Taichung that was filled with feng shui items such as a money frog and lucky bamboo. A riot gun, which uses compressed air to fire nonlethal projectiles, rested on his desk. Peng said he bought it for “recreational purposes.”

In the interview, he detailed his path from sending spam emails as a 14-year-old to, being recruited to help with the 2018 reelection campaign of Najib Razak, the former prime minister of Malaysia.

Peng’s clients are companies, brands, political parties, and candidates in Asia. “Customers have money, and I don't care what they buy," he said. They’re purchasing an end-to-end online manipulation system, which can influence people on a massive scale — resulting in votes cast, products sold, and perceptions changed.

Peng’s product is modeled on automation software he saw in China, which he believes no one else outside the mainland has. But while his technology may be unique, his company, Bravo-Idea, is not. There is now a worldwide industry of PR and marketing firms ready to deploy fake accounts, false narratives, and pseudo news websites for the right price.

If disinformation in 2016 was characterized by Macedonian spammers pushing pro-Trump fake news and Russian trolls running rampant on platforms, 2020 is shaping up to be the year communications pros for hire provide sophisticated online propaganda operations to anyone willing to pay. Around the globe, politicians, parties, governments, and other clients hire what is known in the industry as “black PR” firms to spread lies and manipulate online discourse.

A BuzzFeed News review — which looked at account takedowns by platforms that deactivated and investigations by security and research firms — found that since 2011, at least 27 online information operations have been partially or wholly attributed to PR or marketing firms. Of those, 19 occurred in 2019 alone.

Most recently, in late December, Twitter announced it removed more than 5,000 accounts that it said were part of “a significant state-backed information operation” in Saudi Arabia carried out by marketing firm Smaat. The same day, Facebook announced a takedown of hundreds of accounts, pages, and groups that it found were engaged in “foreign and government interference” on behalf of the government of Georgia. It attributed the operation to Panda, an advertising agency in Georgia, and to the country’s ruling party.

Nathaniel Gleicher, Facebook’s head of cybersecurity policy, told BuzzFeed News “the professionalization of deception” is a growing threat.

“The broader notion of deception and influence operations has been around for some time, but over the past several years, we have seen [...] companies grow up that basically build their business model around deception,” he said.

Although Peng may be one of the most sophisticated black PR practitioners, he is far from the only one. The Saudi and Georgian revelations followed a drumbeat of similar takedowns of and investigations into marketing and PR firms in countries such as Israel, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Ukraine, Brazil, Indonesia, and Poland.

Cindy Otis, a former CIA officer and the author of True or False: A CIA Analyst's Guide to Spotting Fake News, told BuzzFeed News that information operations by nation-states like Russia and Iran have provided “a playbook for individuals and groups that are financially motivated to delve into this space.”

The emergence of black PR firms means investigators at platforms, security firms, and within the intelligence community are “spending increasing amounts of time looking at the disinformation-for-hire services that are out there,” said Otis.

The Archimedes Group, an Israeli black PR firm, created networks of hundreds of Facebook pages, accounts, and groups around the world, boasting on its website that it would “use every tool and take every advantage available in order to change reality according to our client’s wishes.” For an election in Mali, it managed a fake fact-checking page that claimed to be run by local students. In Tunisia, it ran a page titled “Stop à la Désinformation et aux Mensonges” (“Stop Disinformation and Lies”). In Nigeria, it ran pages advocating for and against the same politician, former vice president Atiku Abubakar. Researchers postulated that the pro-Abubakar page “was likely designed to identify his supporters in order to target them with anti-Abubakar content later.”

In Ukraine, the PR firm Pragmatico employed dozens of young, digitally savvy people to pump out positive comments on fake Facebook accounts about clients. In Poland, Cat@Net managed networks of fake Twitter accounts operated by staffers with disabilities working from home, whom the agency hired because it could pay them below-market rates while they received government subsidies. Reporting by Investigate Europe also found Cat@Net performed work for one of Poland’s most prominent PR agencies, Art-Media. (The company denied working with Cat@Net.)

In Puerto Rico, journalists revealed that former governor Ricardo Rosselló was an administrator of a Telegram group chat where a consultant from marketing firm KOI appeared to plan and direct social media campaigns to push pro-government messages and attack rivals. In August, Rosselló resigned, in part over widespread outrage over the chats.

Peng Kuan Chin

Peng’s career is a road map of how online manipulation services evolved from solo operations to agencies that openly advertise their services and employ large staffs.

At 14 years old, he wrote an email spam program to stuff mailboxes of people in Taiwan. “Using 30 computers I had in a room, I became a very big player in sending spam,” Peng said. “I think 1 of every 2 people in Taiwan has received junk mails that I was responsible for.”

In high school, he created software to spam popular internet message boards with offers, labeling the product as an "Automatic Bulletin Posting Kit.” One ad asked visitors to porn sites, "Do you know that excessive masturbation can cause impotence and premature ejaculation?" Peng said the fearmongering ad helped drive sales for male enhancement pills he was promoting.

Peng created thousands of fake accounts on popular Chinese message boards to promote his and his clients’ products. He soon began making and selling websites and counseling via Skype on how to make money online.

“I hosted so many that I even lost my voice! I was a high school student then, and my mother was wondering what I was doing speaking on the phone all day,” he said.

In 2011, singers from schools across Taiwan competed in a popular TV competition. Peng’s alma mater won; its performer received more than 41 million online votes, almost twice the Taiwanese population. A school official confirmed to the Reporter that the school had requested help from Peng in the competition but declined to comment further.

Since 2013, Peng has been developing his “Content Farm Automatic Collection System.” His clients use his system to overwhelm their chosen corners of the internet with torrents of AI-generated text that influence search results. Peng perfected the system by buying the services of every social media and SEO manipulation offering he could find on Taobao, a huge Chinese e-commerce site owned by Alibaba.

“I was scammed a few times in the beginning because I didn’t really understand the software,” he said. “Many of them were fake or useless.”

Peng instructed his six developers to build a system inspired by the best of what he saw.

“This marketing logic is in response to China’s huge population of 1.4 billion people, [where content] only gets eyeballs when there is volume,” he said. “In comparison, there are only 23 million people in Taiwan. Applying this logic, I will create the largest volume in the shortest amount of time, and the information I spread will reach everyone’s eyes.”

While Peng focuses on automation, black PR firms elsewhere rely on manual labor, using brute force with what he does with code.

For investigative reporter Vasil Bidun, that meant an eight-hour shift in the trendy Podil neighborhood of Kyiv. He would log on to different fake Facebook accounts to comment in favor of candidates, criticize their opponents, or steer conversations in specific directions. Ukraine’s presidential election was underway, and he said his employer, Pragmatico, seemed to have secured contracts with several people running for office. (All politicians asked about the troll farm have denied involvement.)

“The aim is to get an emotional reaction from a person,” Bidun said in an interview. “If they read a comment, even [if they understand] that it was written by a bot, it could have affected them emotionally and it becomes more difficult for them to control themselves.”

Article continues here.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/disinformation-for-hire-black-pr-firms

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by edina (here)

I agree though, it does involve mental work.

Admittedly that may not be everyone's cup of tea.

edina, I do know you're getting irritated. But so are those with different viewpoints than yours.

The above is a nano case study of exactly why we made the Q threads for members only.

Way above, just four days and 40 posts ago, I said: (extracted, and my added emphasis here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

As some reading this will know, the whole Qanon issue (with several members, not all still here or active) seemed to generate strength of feeling, emotion, antagonism and sometimes even sheer unpleasantness (even behind the scenes among some of the mods) that was really hard to understand.

Thankfully, that steadily-burning but erosively-destructive fire, that was extremely hard to control, has now died down and is pretty much cold out.

Well, how wrong I was! The fire's not out at all. It's been smoldering away all this time. People can still get burned.

This is how destructive flare-ups happen, even when totally unexpected. The strength of feeling expressed in the last few days is exactly what the problem always was — and is in itself a showcase of how divisive this material can be.

We're going to keep things exactly as they are. This particular thread is public, of course, so anyone out there reading this may realize this is what the issue has been all along, for really quite a long time. We can't extinguish the fire: but we can contain it, and that's exactly what we'll do.

[edina]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by edina (here)

I agree though, it does involve mental work.

Admittedly that may not be everyone's cup of tea.

edina, I do know you're getting irritated. But so are those with different viewpoints than yours.

The above is a nano case study of exactly why we made the Q threads for members only.

Way above, just four days and 40 posts ago, I said: (extracted, and my added emphasis here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

As some reading this will know, the whole Qanon issue (with several members, not all still here or active) seemed to generate strength of feeling, emotion, antagonism and sometimes even sheer unpleasantness (even behind the scenes among some of the mods) that was really hard to understand.

Thankfully, that steadily-burning but erosively-destructive fire, that was extremely hard to control, has now died down and is pretty much cold out.

Well, how wrong I was! The fire's not out at all. It's been smoldering away all this time. People can still get burned.

This is how destructive flare-ups happen, even when totally unexpected. The strength of feeling expressed in the last few days is exactly what the problem always was — and is in itself a showcase of how divisive this material can be.

We're going to keep things exactly as they are. This particular thread is public, of course, so anyone out there reading this may realize this is what the issue has been all along, for really quite a long time. We can't extinguish the fire: but we can contain it, and that's exactly what we'll do.

Thank you for pointing me out as your example, while noting it happens with others, too.

Not only on the content related to Q, but other topics, as well. Myself and Q content is simply being singled out here.

I would like to clarify though, that your assessment of my emotional state on this issue is inaccurate. (I'm not irritated, to clarify.)

But does demonstrate how there is an ongoing problem with fanning smoldering ashes.

Thanks again for giving this consideration. Truly appreciated.

[Ernie Nemeth]

You are both right. And this fanning is affecting those here still remaining silent.

[onawah]

Thanks for preventing another conflagration.
There is enough burning going on already in the world.

[Jayke]

”People can live weeks without food! Days without water! Minutes without air!
But take all the heat out of the environment and you’ll be dead within seconds!”

Fire is an essential element of life let’s not forget. Learning to harness it for its constructive use as warmth and light is one of the deeper goals of wisdom seeking.

=========

The Age of Revealing
by Michael Tsarion

“...the final goal of world revolution is not Socialism or even Communism, it is not a change in the existing economic system, it is not the destruction of civilization in a material sense; the revolution desired by the leaders is a moral and spiritual revolution, an anarchy of ideas by which all standards set up throughout nineteen centuries shall be reversed - Nesta Webster (Secret Societies and Subversive Movements, 1921)

Benjamin Disraeli, the first Jewish Prime Minister of Victorian Britain, wrote in his novel Coningsby: "The world is run by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."

Prime Minister Disraeli was obviously aware that our world is controlled by powerful secret societies and fraternal orders whose agendas and goals have little to do with our best interests. Although these orders do not necessarily conceal their identities, they do endeavor to conceal what goes on behind the doors of their various lodges and establishments. Elite members of the Alpha Lodges of Freemasonry do not wish to have information about their strange practices, rites and agendas publicly disclosed.

They manufacture many strategies and devices to ensure secrecy. As one Masonic author reveals:

“Freemasonry is labyrinthine. It is full of puzzles, conundrums, misspellings, corruptions, cryptic clues, and simple salutes, childish codes, contrivances, circular paths, roads that sometimes lead nowhere, walls appearing to be ten feet thick yet giving way easily to the lightest touch in the right spot, riddles to be solved, numerous passwords, an allegorical, highly symbolical, double-entendre storyline worthy of the best latter-day spy writers, protected by secret signs and symbols and a myriad of enigmas to be confronted…In the labyrinth that is Freemasonry there is a center where rests its holy grail. Many have tried to find it only to reach dead ends” - Leon Davin (The Ritual: The Greatest Story Never Told)

In The Irish Origins of Civilization I expose the true origins and agendas of the world’s most powerful secret societies. I also expose the origins and agendas of the religions that secret society elites have given birth to. We demonstrate how the arch-conspirators at the top of the power pyramid have expertly used both religion and politics to further their anti-human objectives. Essentially our work informs the reader of certain vital occult facts that are for the most part unknown to members of secret societies. For generations the true origins and agendas of the Masonic Order, Knights Templar, Rosicrucians and Illuminati have been carefully guarded secrets:

”The Blue Degrees are but the outer court…of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretation. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them…The true explanation is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry (those of the 32nd and 33rd degrees)” - Albert Pike

“These good folk swell our numbers and fill our money-box. Set yourselves to work; these gentlemen must be made to nibble at the bait…But this sort of people must always be made to believe that the grade they have reached is the last” - Adam Weishaupt

Disraeli was not the only man to remark on the Machiavellian agendas of those who work to change the course of humanity's fate. In her voluminous but rambling writings, occultist and Fabian Alice A. Bailey explained the essentials:

“Behind the division of humanity stand those Enlightened Ones whose right and privilege it is to watch over human evolution and to guide the destinies of men…This they do through the implanting of ideas in the minds of the world thinkers, so that these ideas in due time receive recognition and eventually become controlling factors in human life. They train the members of the New Group of World Servers in the task of changing these ideas into ideals. These in turn become the desired objectives of the thinkers and are then taught to the powerful middle class and worked up into world forms of governments or religion, thus ​forming the basis of the new world order.”

Naturally, the power-elites and their minions (who apparently believe the world to be their personal play-pen), have a great deal to lose should the underclasses learn about the psychic and social control that operates all around them, hidden in plain sight. However, the task of revealers is made considerably more difficult due to "consensus trance" and knee-jerk fear that inhibits a colonized mind. Servants of Truth know from experience how few friends are won when and if they endeavor to expose the dirty big secrets of religion’s upper echelon.

Nevertheless, a Servant of Truth is not permanently daunted by controversy or resistance. He is aware that one is much more likely to cut themselves with a blunt knife than a sharp one. He is aware that the cost of ignorance is ultimately far greater than the price paid for knowledge. He knows that freedom is never free and that silence is most definitely consent. He comes to realize that on the great board game of life, if he fatally chooses not to occupy the white squares of knowledge, he will be manipulated by those who will.

”The only good is knowledge and the only evil ignorance” - Socrates

The task of exposing the secrets of secret societies is somewhat complicated because it inevitably involves the exposure of the secrets of religion. And since religion is intimately connected to politics, the task cannot but include an exposure of the secrets of politics. Although it is vain to expect a single work to investigate all the dark highways and byways of these institutions, we can at least make a zealous start, and wait to see where the river of ink leads.

Along the way, we bear in mind that it is not one torch we must light, and not a single shadowy labyrinth we must explore, but three. Like a newly initiated Masonic neophyte, we too must negotiate three steps toward truth and empowerment. May our destination be the same as that purported by Masonry. May our three lonely roads lead us to the altar of Truth. Truly it is not hyperbole to say that we are, during the years of this new millennium, going to experience the greatest of revelations concerning the most relevant human mysteries. We can expect many a layer of deception to finally be peeled away. Some of us may be glad and grateful for the coming light of revelation. Others among us may be startled by the proximity of such insight, while many will inevitably find themselves deeply threatened by its presence. Many will not wish to see in themselves the dirt that this special kind of light reveals.

===========

In the vain of Daniel Schmachtenberger, this article of Tsarions could just as easily be used to bash the Q threads as it could to defend them. Beyond that though, how do we explore the 3 lights that must be lit, without losing control of the flames that light the way through the dark labyrinthine maze of propoganda that’s ubiquitous online these days.

As the Complete Enlightenment Sutra states, there’s only 3 techniques people ever need to learn to end all suffering in the world.

1. Samatha (cessation) — which is equanimity, the ability to view things objectively as they are without superimposing ones judgement.

2. Samapathi — the technique Schmachtenberger already provided. The syncretism of ideas and integration of multiple opposing worldviews to see through our personal biases and attachments.

Samatha helps us discover the ontological reality of the situation we find ourselves in. Samapathi refines our epistemological processes for verifying the ontological foundation of life.

3. Dhyana — gives us the self-discipline to walk the razors edge between ontology and epistemology. The discipline to continue seeking truth at ever more refined levels of awareness—beyond the level of our current set of biases, or worldviews.

[wegge]

Regarding the Q thread (which I haven’t read)

To me it seems to be a recurring pattern on Avalon...people getting very emotionalized and drawn into a shining, messianic figure that’s arriving at the forum scene (can’t remember all the names but the Charles story seemed definitely one of them) and it all ends in a Big Bang... some people resign, others get kicked and we get „back to normal“.

Kind of like a catharsis of all the pent up energy.

[onawah]

The Leftist Cult vs. The Trump Cult: Similarities And Differences
By Brandon Smith
Alt-Market
January 2, 2020
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/01/...d-differences/
(Recommending and bumping this article, which sheds a lot of light into what came before that shaped things into so much division. )

"Political demagoguery is a valuable and effective weapon in the arsenal of the establishment elites. As long as there is a wide ideological division between groups in society, biases and desires can be tapped and manipulated. This allows those in power to direct vast portions of the public down one path or another. When fear of an enemy and the drive to “win” become more important than truth and evidence, the population has tied its own puppet strings and handed them over to the spin doctors.

This is why the false Left/Right paradigm has been so useful to the establishment for so long. Anytime the public starts to wake up to the web of control, all the elites have to do is push one or both sides of the political spectrum towards extremism and let the people rage at each other instead of picking up their torches and pitchforks and tearing down the oligarchy. This method of division and diversion keeps the masses occupied and feeling as though they are accomplishing something while actually accomplishing nothing.

As Carroll Quigley, globalist insider and mentor to Bill Clinton, admitted in his book ‘Tragedy And Hope’:“The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can “throw the rascals out” at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy….Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.”

The false Left/Right tactic has become more and more exposed in the past decade to the wider public, and so the elites had to change their methods to adapt to the growing awareness. Conservatives in particular have started to leave the plantation, and something had to be done to drag them back. The liberty movement has become a force in western life with tens of millions of members. It is an unpredictable element that the establishment needs to lock down and redirect if they ever hope to achieve their goal of a “new world order”.

The elites have used two tandem strategies in this effort:

First, they pushed leftist indoctrination towards full bore cultism.

Second, they have attempted to co-opt the leadership of conservatives and the liberty movement using a political puppet figure in order to bottleneck our energy and momentum.

Leftist culture has become increasingly erratic and unhinged (even more so than usual), informed by elements of a new social justice fanaticism; a kind of religious fervor where faith in ideological gatekeepers is more important than facts. The majority of the left, while not necessarily part of this “woke” religion, is still influenced by SJW rhetoric. Delusional notions of “patriarchy” and “inherent racism” and “inherent sexism” are woven into the Democrat mindset today. They see oppression everywhere, and victim group status has become the social currency they use to acclimate to a fantasy world where big government and entitlements are the solutions to all the world’s ills.

The conservative side of civilization doesn’t participate in the oppression fantasies of the left. We don’t even speak the same language, as the left’s very vocabulary has shifted into an academic babble-language they simply made up to describe social dynamics that don’t exist and gender politics that are biologically and scientifically absurd. Reconciling with leftists in any meaningful way has become nearly impossible, and fear of their fanaticism is causing conservatives to assume that whatever these people hate, must be good.

Enter Donald Trump, a kind of artificially created focal point machine, a figure that is designed to absorb liberty movement talking points and then regurgitate them in an alphabet soup puddle on Twitter. This rhetoric is relatively effective in that many conservatives recognize parts of the soup and find comfort that Trump “must be on their side”.

I have outlined in numerous articles Trump’s dubious background and behavior. To summarize, we often hear lip service from Trump on anti-globalism and anti-elitism, even though it is an undeniable fact that he has saturated his cabinet with globalists and elitists.

We heard anti-banker talking points from Trump during his campaign, even though Trump has a longstanding relationship to the Rothschild family and works side-by-side with Rothschild and Goldman Sachs bankers in the White House. We heard lots of anti-Federal Reserve discussion from Trump and observations that the current economy is an explosive bubble engineered by them; yet he now openly demands that the Fed inflate the bubble further while he takes full credit for the fake stock market rally. We also heard many promises that US troops would be coming home and the long wars in the Middle East would end for America; this has not happened and likely will not happen as tensions with Iran continue to grow.

In other words, Trump is a skin job. A robot. A false conservative and false prophet of the liberty movement. He tells us what we want to hear while his actions say something entirely different. Yet, a lot of conservatives still listen to him, because they despise the collectivist religion of the left, they desperately want mainstream recognition and representation, and because they want to believe that there is a white knight out there in Washington defending their interests and their future.

The establishment understands these desires and exploits them. They understand that the more extreme the left becomes, the more tempted conservatives will be to jump blindly on the Trump bandwagon.

Mainstream media outlets like CNN have taken to referring to Trump’s base as a “cult” recently, which of course is the pot calling the kettle black; but it does not mean that the accusation is wrong. Trump’s base is indeed acting more and more like a cult, but primarily in reaction to the cultism of leftists. The crazier the left gets, the more Trump becomes a folk hero to the right. The more the media promotes fabricated Russiagate nonsense or Ukrainian conspiracy narratives, the more conservatives assume that the establishment is “trying to take down” Trump.

It is rather rudimentary reverse psychology – If the establishment media attacks Trump, then he must be “anti-establishment”. If the leftists hate Trump, then he must be good for conservatives. Nothing could be further from the truth, but if anyone points this out they will be immediately attacked as disinformation agents and purveyors of CNN talking points.

A common argument in defense of Trump is to ignore his associations and behavior entirely and focus on the prevailing circus surrounding him instead. People state indignantly that:

“Trump is under attack! They are trying to impeach him! How can he be working with the globalists if they are trying to get rid of him…?”

I would point out that there is a usefulness to political theater that goes far beyond trying to remove a president from office. Again, the media viciously attacked Trump during his election campaign, but if one understands that public trust in the mainstream media has collapsed in the past ten years, then one also understands that media attacks on Trump would only cause more people to like him and vote for him. The question then needs to be asked: Does the establishment understand this inverse relationship in public psychology? Or, did they completely overlook it?

I seriously doubt they are overlooking it.

If this is the case, then the frothing leftist rage against Trump, while partially real, is also 4th Generation warfare designed to trick conservatives into developing their own cult-like fantasy that Trump is our fearless leader fighting the good fight even though his presidency is tightly intertwined with global elitists. The impeachment itself comes at a time when a large portion of the liberty movement is waking up to the Trump con game and is questioning many of his activities and associations.

The establishment has put a lot of effort into creating the Trump versus Leftist circus, and they really hate the idea that a number of people are refusing to pick a side. For them, there is nothing worse than free thinkers who organize their own side separate from the false paradigm.

The impeachment, like Russiagate, is not designed to get Trump out of office. It is a Hail Mary attempt to pull liberty minded conservatives back into the Trump fold; to keep us predictable and under control. It is also designed to keep leftists feeling justified in their insanity. Remember, the crazier the left acts, the more fearful and malleable conservatives become.

The establishment likes Trump right where he is, and he will not be going anywhere, at least not until he has completely served his purpose. Whether that will be in the next year, or in another four years, it’s hard to say at this time. Obviously, the elites have to keep the left/right sideshow going at full volume until they are done using Trump as a distraction. They will “attack” him as often as needed to create the illusion that he is anti-establishment, and Trump will continue to play along to please his masters, many of them standing over his shoulder everyday in the White House.

The Leftist Cult and the Trump Cult are similar in their refusal to accept facts and reality, as well as their ability to double and triple down on delusions that are consistently debunked.

I have witnessed people on the Trump-train dismiss every blatant piece of evidence of Trump’s collusion with globalists on the basis that he is “keeping his enemies close”. I have seen them ignore his support for Red Flag gun laws, his refusal to pull US forces out of Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen, his hostility towards Iran, his support for totalitarian governments like Saudi Arabia, etc. They call it “4D chess” and simply move on. I have seen them shrug off endless data showing economic decline and proclaim instead an “economic boom”. I have seen them completely absorbed and distracted by the trade war and China while forgetting all about the banking elites that engineer most of the calamity in our society.They act this way because they are afraid. The political left frightens them, they are searching for a hero to save them, and they are willing to overlook almost any skeleton in Trump’s closet in order to make their fantasy version of him real. But, the leftists are nothing more than a symptom – They are useful idiots, not the source of the disease. And, Trump is not the hero conservatives are looking for anyway. In terms of the liberty movement, Trump is irrelevant. He’s a footnote. The real work is being done by millions of activists breaking through decades of propaganda and exposing the truth.

The difference between the Leftist Cult and the Trump Cult is mostly intent: Leftists double and triple down on their lies because they are infatuated with collective power and they see the truth as an obstacle to the “greater good”. The Trump cult ignores facts and evidence on Trump because they are hyperfocused on collective defense. Leftists are seeking to micromanage the thoughts and behavior of the world while conservatives are seeking to solidify enough political protection to ensure they are left alone. The Leftist Cult wants to burn everything to the ground, erase history and rebuild the world in their image. The Trump Cult is trying to keep the last structures of American heritage alive; they have simply put their faith in the wrong champion.

The sad reality is, leftists and conservatives are likely far too alien to each other now to ever come to a diplomatic solution. The division in society is very real; it’s the division at the top that’s Kabuki theater. The liberty movement is the key to everything, as we are the constant target of establishment 4th Gen propaganda. If we didn’t matter, then the elites would not be spending so much time, money and energy trying to keep us in line. They need us to buy into the theater, otherwise we become an unknown element, a third party, a time bomb that could explode unexpectedly on them at any given moment."

[Chester]

I decided that if it were up to me, I would make the Q thread public. I haven't seen one, but I can't imagine there not being a "Q is bogus" thread. Both should exist in this forum and both should be public IMO.

After reading here and there in the thread, I just see it as just another "thing" folks in this community would either follow and/or contribute to because they think its real or, by reading along conclude it's not.

If a poster gets out of hand, why can't they be handled like they generally are anyways? On a case by case basis?

To keep it "members-only" sends a signal that there's something to hide and/or the forum is compromised and/or censorship of a discussion, regardless the controversial nature of its subject, is justifiable. I think censoring it is similar to shadow banning. I don't support social media that shadow bans.

[Kryztian]

Posted by Sammy (here)
If a poster gets out of hand, why can't they be handled like they generally are anyways? On a case by case basis?

Sammy, because it has been HELL on the mods. The mods are all volunteers, and some of them work incredibly hard, reading every post, making spelling and formatting corrections, untangling complex off topic posts and sorting them into meaningful new threads. And they read through every post!!! Next time you see a long post and you look at the user name and say to yourself "I'm not reading the post from THAT PERSON!", well, the mods don't have that luxury, and there is a lot of vitriol and stupidity they have to get through before their day is done.

Last summer Project Avalon had a really toxic psychopath do some tremendous damage on the forum, equivalent to what bush fires are doing to Australia right now. He, as far as I know, was not active on the Q threads. After he was unsubscribed (no one in the history of Avalon every deserved this more), he continued to bare his toxic soul on another forum, spreading insinuations and lies in a most vicious manner. That forum was not as quick as our in removing slanderous personal attacks, and most people on the forum were not aware of who was being gossiped about, nor were people on our forum aware of this. But then a very active and vocal member of the Q community posted the links. I think we've all have a few incidents in our life we are attacked and you feel it deep in your very soul and this sticks with you throughout your whole life. Well, that's what it was like for one hard, very kind, very compassionate moderator. And to a lesser extend for many of us that witnessed this.

What ever the debate about Q anon, the emotional and spiritual wear and tear upon our beloved moderators must be a prime consideration in this matter. I wouldn't want the job they have and I wouldn't wish the ugliness that have to contend with on anyone.

[ClearWater]

Posted by Kryztian (here)

Posted by Sammy (here)
If a poster gets out of hand, why can't they be handled like they generally are anyways? On a case by case basis?

Sammy, because it has been HELL on the mods. The mods are all volunteers, and some of them work incredibly hard, reading every post, making spelling and formatting corrections, untangling complex off topic posts and sorting them into meaningful new threads. And they read through every post!!! Next time you see a long post and you look at the user name and say to yourself "I'm not reading the post from THAT PERSON!", well, the mods don't have that luxury, and there is a lot of vitriol and stupidity they have to get through before their day is done.

Last summer Project Avalon had a really toxic psychopath do some tremendous damage on the forum, equivalent to what bush fires are doing to Australia right now. He, as far as I know, was not active on the Q threads. After he was unsubscribed (no one in the history of Avalon every deserved this more), he continued to bare his toxic soul on another forum, spreading insinuations and lies in a most vicious manner. That forum was not as quick as our in removing slanderous personal attacks, and most people on the forum were not aware of who was being gossiped about, nor were people on our forum aware of this. But then a very active and vocal member of the Q community posted the links. I think we've all have a few incidents in our life we are attacked and you feel it deep in your very soul and this sticks with you throughout your whole life. Well, that's what it was like for one hard, very kind, very compassionate moderator. And to a lesser extend for many of us that witnessed this.

What ever the debate about Q anon, the emotional and spiritual wear and tear upon our beloved moderators must be a prime consideration in this matter. I wouldn't want the job they have and I wouldn't wish the ugliness that have to contend with on anyone.

Having been in a similar position for many years, I have great respect for your concern for the staff members of the site. Also, as you stated yourself, this is a voluntary position. Those who take it on do so with full knowledge of what they're volunteering for, and can step down from their position at any time, should it prove to be more than they wish to deal with. The job of a staff is not, however, to lessen their own responsibility, or to make it simpler. Their job is to do what's right for the community. Now it's certainly possible to argue that keeping certain threads private IS what's best for the community, and I think it's best that the focus of discussion/debate be on this, rather than on specific individuals that are volunteering to support the community.