The 'censorship' discussion

[Sandy123]

I have followed Q on a few YouTube channels but now many of them have been banned. And if they are still there you can't find them because of the algorithms won't allow those channels to come up any more. And now Project Avalon has followed suit. We don't live in China, we are still allowed to watch and listen to whatever we want, right? We are free, yes?
My friend works at a hostel where mostly young people stay while travelling. She was alarmed by their hatred against President Trump and that they want to buy guns to defend themselves. What kind of world do they live in? It's very sad to me that they don't live in a beautiful and free world. Free to research conspiracy theories if they choose to investigate, while information is still available, that is.
Project Avalon is a treasure trove of knowledge with hundreds of rooms to visit, but Q is now located in the back room. The door is wide open, you just need to come in and introduce yourself. Be careful where you sit, some members are quite feisty.

[edina]

Before I begin let me address an earlier comment. I had not intended my comments to “shame” you, Dennis. That thought never occurred to me.

If you felt hurt, or shamed, I apologize.

Also, Dennis you are one of the most loved and respected members on this forum. Your words carry as much weight, if not more, than Bill and when Paul was a member, Paul.

You are in a position of power in this forum.

Anyone who speaks up about concerns they may have about your behavior is in fact, vulnerable. It takes courage to speak out when addressing a concern about a person in power.

I do not feel you are being crucified or persecuted. And there is certainly not a “witch” hunt going after Dennis Leahy. That accusation is simply not accurate.

And thank you again for clarifying your thoughts regarding me, Paul and KiwiElf. Because I honestly felt you had taken on a “they are the enemy” mindset toward us.

That clarification was very helpful to me.

The common ground I saw in your comments was the desire to address the issue of the criminal cabals. That is not necessarily a discussion for this thread.

But maybe it is, I don’t know?


When I first joined Avalon it was during the Atticus threads. I found them invigorating and full of vitality. Others found them stressful and wanted nothing to do with them. While engaging with other people on various topics in those threads, I noticed a pattern.

A controversial topic was thrown out in an opened-ended way, often one where people had polarized intense opinions.

There would be an intense period of discussion that would eventually lead to a point in the discussion where equilibrium would happen organically.

I saw this pattern over and over and over.

Some people were very angry with Bill. They thought he should control it more. It felt chaotic to a lot of people. In fact, it was chaotic. But it was a creative chaos.

I was intrigued with Bill’s mention of David Bohm’s book, On Dialogue. So I looked at the book.

Posted by edina (here)
I've been thinking a lot about what is going on in the Charles Interview related threads. And, in noticing and thinking about the patterns I am seeing in these threads, I decided to take a closer look at the book that Bill Ryan references in the interviews and in many other places about his idea of having a dialogue in the vein of how David Bohm suggests in his book "On Dialogue".

I think people will feel a better understanding of what is going on here if they were familiar with the concepts presented in this book.

Here's a Bohm Dialogue - Wilipedia link

Here's a link to Amazon, On Dialogue by David Bohm

The wikipedia article starts out this way:

Bohm Dialogue (also known as Bohmian Dialogue) is a freely-flowing group conversation that makes an attempt, utilizing a theoretical understanding of the way thoughts relate to universal reality, to more effectively investigate the crises that face society, and indeed the whole of human nature and consciousness.

It lists these principles:

Principles of Dialogue

"Bohm Dialogue" has been widely used in the field of organizational development, and has evolved beyond what David Bohm intended: rarely is the minimum group size as large as what Bohm originally recommended, and there are often other numerous subtle differences. Specifically, any method of conversation that claims to be based on the "principles of dialogue as established by David Bohm" can be considered to be a form of Bohm Dialogue. Those principles of "Bohm Dialogue" are:

1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"

2. Each individual agrees to suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"

3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)

4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals' ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)

Usually, the goal of the various incarnations of "Bohm Dialogue" is to get the whole group to have a better understanding of itself. In other words, Bohm Dialogue is used to inform all of the participants about the current state of the group they are in.

As I looked deeper into this book, and Bohm's ideas on Dialogue, then much of what we are seeing in the forum discussions began to make much more sense to me.

This information may help answer some people's questions as to why we don't hear much from either Atticus, or Bill. This may be why so many people feel as if they are experiencing much personal growth from participating in the conversation.

Even though I am posting this relevant to the Charles material, I think it applies to all the various discussions going on here at Avalon, and in our other communities.



Note Added:

This book in pdf format is now available in the Avalon Library.

http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Davi...20Dialogue.pdf

I think Bill still feels very highly about this book. He continues to mention it from time to time.


I bring this up, because this is often on the back of my mind when Bill opens up an open-ended question thread such as this one.

It’s also why I decided to ask Bill directly about his intent. Perhaps I’m assuming this process is in play in this thread, and maybe that assumption is wrong.

Posted by edina (here)
I have a question for Bill, regarding this thread.

When you started this thread, what was your intent, and what did you hope to accomplish?

Thanks

I have a lot of thought processes going on in my mind. And this post is already long, so, I’ll gradually develop them in other posts.

Meanwhile, I’ll wait to post again until Bill responds to my above questions.

This will help me clarify where my ideas best fit.

[greybeard]

Posted by samildamach (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)
Ive also suggested that people could start their own Q forum an still remain members here.
However if a new forum was started I suspect all of a sudden it would have boundaries rules mods and massive fall outs.
Avalon has survived for many years through sensible moderation.

Times way back I had a major disagreement with Bill--it was resolved.
I dont disagree or agree with decisions made by Bill an the team but they are necessary and Im glad its not my responsibility

Chris

How would you feel if asked to take your thread somewhere else, because your teachings no longer fit in pa?
Maybe a good cleansing as we switch sites just case we contaminate the forum.
With respect Chris I find this a poor idea even though the intent is kind

Im smiling
Its not really my thread I just post videos--very little personal comment.
Many times ive felt that the thread does not really fit well in Avalon--not many members visit it.
However-- I have started the same on other forums basically posting the same there as here--saves time.

No one asked me to post elsewhere--im just reminded of choices I made
You can post Q material here and elsewhere.
My posts remain in the little cubby hole where most members dont venture.

When Krishna Murty was asked his secret he said "I dont mind"
I follow his example.

If I was asked to go by Bill I would go.
Its his house.
He pays the rent.
I havent been asked to go. at least not recently-- and neither has the Q thread been asked to go.

There have been a few subjects that have banned --several whistle blowers started of very popular here and then found out they had to go for the benefit of the Avalon community.
One I pointed out suspect and got rounded on.
I was visited by a moderator who said I was miscalling another member .
I was correct but censored from further comment at that time.
So I have been there.

Dont mind me I just take the middle path--sometimes the polarities will disagree with that--Im ok with this.

Chris

[mojo]

Members ask questions and get no responses??????

Especially when a moderator says:

To date the moderators, admin and Bill have absolutely no regrets about the decision

Every response on this thread by members with pov different have thought this thread was a possibility to explain why the decision needed more thought.. Other alternatives were offered and an effort to explain why shadow banning is wrong...

[mojo]

For what is believed to be a wrong decision some have spoken out... The comment, 'to date the management is happy' has negated the feelings and position of many. To me it felt like a stab in the heart... And no offense to the messenger. When many question are posed and crickets it just emphasizes the divide... Now self reflection is needed for myself to heal and not be an impediment here. Also important to recognize my own shortcomings.

[Hervé]

Maybe it's time to talk about the same things:

• Shadow ban: my understanding of it is that a posted post is only visible to the poster, only. No one else sees it. No such function available on Avalon.

• Censorship: removing material from ever being accessible by anyone. Book burning is the ultimate in such endeavor. We could censor the Q material and completely delete it from the database or send it to some obscure oubliettes in some remote, inaccessible Avalon archives.

• Quarantine: no one is allowed in or out. No contact or exchange permitted.

• Restricted: One needs to provide some proof of ID/age to access the great beyond.

• Sand box... let 'em play all they want in there.

So, since neither the opt in/out nor the "Ignore thread" plug-in would work on this vB version, the fall back decison was to set up the Q materials in a restricted area.

[greybeard]

Posted by Hervé (here)
Maybe it's time to talk about the same things:

• Shadow ban: my understanding of it is that a posted post is only visible to the poster, only. No one else sees it. No such function available on Avalon.

• Censorship: removing material from ever being accessible by anyone. Book burning is the ultimate in such endeavor. We could censor the Q material and completely delete it from the database or send it to some obscure oubliettes in some remote, inaccessible Avalon archives.

• Quarantine: no one is allowed in or out. No contact or exchange permitted.

• Restricted: One needs to provide some proof of ID/age to access the great beyond.

• Sand box... let 'em play all they want in there.

So, since neither the opt in/out nor the "Ignore thread" plug-in would work on this vB version, the fall back decision was to set up the Q materials in a restricted area.

I think one would have to come up with an entirely different definition, name, for what did happen.
None of the definitions that Herve posted apply.

Chris

[mojo]

right on Greybeard...

[Jayke]

Whitehouse definition of shadow-banning from the recent social media summit.

“The subjective hiding or demotion of a social media users visibility.”

How is shadow banning not what’s happened with the Q thread here on Avalon? Certainly feels like a demotion to the sandbox for me, based on the mod teams subjective opinions. No one’s been able to successfully debate away the Q threads viability at least. A lot of personal opinions thrown around, lots of aspersions cast, but when it comes to actual evidence-based discourse, not one person has been able to prove anything one way or the other.

[RunningDeer]

The Power Of Teamwork Geese flying in a Λ formation (2:14 minutes)

Geese help each other. Scientists also discovered that when one goose becomes ill, is shot or injured, and drops out of the formation, two other geese will fall out of formation and remain with the weakened goose.  They will stay with and protect the injured goose from predators until it is able to fly again or dies. Likewise, human teams work best when they do more than just work together, but care for the well being of each other.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=a9HgNXdBEBc

5 Things Geese Can Teach Us About Teamwork

article

Every fall thousands of geese fly from Canada to the southern part of the United States to escape the bitterly cold Canadian winter.  As soon as a flock of geese take flight from Canadian waters they quickly form a v-shape flying pattern, with one rotating goose in the center lead and all the other geese trailing behind in two close lines.

Wildlife scientists have conducted extensive studies to determine why geese and other migratory birds always fly in a distinctive v-formation.  They found some fascinating results:

1. When geese fly together, each goose provides additional lift and reduces air resistance for the goose flying behind it.  Consequently, by flying together in a v-formation, scientists estimate that the whole flock can fly about 70% farther with the same amount of energy than if each goose flew alone.  Geese have discovered that they can reach their destination more quickly and with less energy expended when they fly together in formation. When people work together harmoniously on teams, sharing common values and a common destination, they all arrive at the destination quicker and easier, because they are lifted up by the energy and enthusiasm of one another.

2. When a goose drops out of the v-formation it quickly discovers that it requires a great deal more effort and energy to fly.  Consequently, that goose will quickly return to the formation to take advantage of the lifting power that comes from flying together. Sometimes people playing on teams will drop out of the group and try to accomplish goals on their own.  However, like the geese, they usually discover that they miss the synergy and energy that comes when they are an active part of a cohesive team moving toward their destination, and want to return to the group.

3. Geese rotate leadership. When the goose flying in the front of the formation has to expend the most energy because it is the first to break up the flow of air that provides the additional lift for all of the geese who follow behind the leader.  Consequently, when the lead goose gets tired, it drops out of the front position and moves to the rear of the formation, where the resistance is lightest, and another goose moves to the leadership position.  This rotation of position happens many times in the course of the long journey to warmer climates.  When a team is functioning well, various members of the team may take the leadership role for a while because of a particular expertise or experience.  Consequently, on good teams, everyone has the opportunity to serve as a leader as well as a follower.

4. Geese honk at each other. They also frequently make loud honking sounds as they fly together.  Scientists speculate that this honking is their way of communicating with each other during their long flight. Similarly, when working on teams, it is exceedingly important for each team member to communicate regularly with all the other team members.  Teams frequently fall apart because of the lack of adequate communication among the various members of the team.  Perhaps human teams can learn from flying flocks of geese that constant communication among members is exceedingly important in moving effectively towards a common destination.

5. Geese help each other. Scientists also discovered that when one goose becomes ill, is shot or injured, and drops out of the formation, two other geese will fall out of formation and remain with the weakened goose.  They will stay with and protect the injured goose from predators until it is able to fly again or dies. Likewise, human teams work best when they do more than just work together, but care for the well being of each other.

[Pam]

Posted by Sandy123 (here)
I have followed Q on a few YouTube channels but now many of them have been banned. And if they are still there you can't find them because of the algorithms won't allow those channels to come up any more. And now Project Avalon has followed suit. We don't live in China, we are still allowed to watch and listen to whatever we want, right? We are free, yes?
My friend works at a hostel where mostly young people stay while travelling. She was alarmed by their hatred against President Trump and that they want to buy guns to defend themselves. What kind of world do they live in? It's very sad to me that they don't live in a beautiful and free world. Free to research conspiracy theories if they choose to investigate, while information is still available, that is.
Project Avalon is a treasure trove of knowledge with hundreds of rooms to visit, but Q is now located in the back room. The door is wide open, you just need to come in and introduce yourself. Be careful where you sit, some members are quite feisty.

Thank you Sandy, you gave life to what my concerns are. It seems to be a non issue to most. As long as the information they want to access is still available they don't care. Corporations are now blatantly feeding us the reality and ideas they want us to live and breath. They are actively promoting hatred and violence of groups they have termed "hate groups". A really legitimate question is: why is Q being censored by media controllers if it is a psy-op? I don't have that answer. We know that anything that doesn't regurgitate the pseudo, mindless liberal bunk that they force feed us is being removed and /or made more difficult to find. (This coming from someone who once considered myself a really, really hard core liberal gal.) If you research how the whole Nazi hate of Jews and other groups started there are a lot of similarities to what is happening here. This is so much bigger than Q. This is the beginnings of something really ugly and corporations are molding the minds of the masses to a weird fomenting hate of certain groups of which Q participants seem to be included. The whole thing freaks the hell out of me, to be honest.

Dennis is absolutely right, there is a cabal and they are closing ranks as we speak. We have to step outside of our own sides and see what is happening to anyone that disagrees with the party line. When I say party I am not referring to Republicans or Democrats. The party as far as I can see is Corpocracy. The corporations are doing the bidding for their masters. They are telling us how to think, how to act, who to like, who to hate, what to inject in our bodies, how to get well and more. No one here on this forum is the enemy. We all want the same thing. We are all good people.

I love every one of you. That is not a glib statement. I feel the concern. Each of us wanting to do what we think will be the best for all. Thank you so much for caring. Thank you for letting me speak. Thank you for the brilliance and magnificent thinkers on Avalon. I learn so much from you guys, all of you.

Dennis, If I am on your list of trouble makers, if I have angered you, then I ask for your forgiveness. You are a very good man. I sometimes get as passionate as you do and probably run my mouth more than I should, but I don't want to make anyone, particular a really honest, decent, truthful person feel unappreciated.

[edina]

Posted by jcking (here)
It's an incredible assumption on your part that others not following Q hadn't heard of billionaire Epstein, I'm using a similarly flippant assumption to show you how silly it looks to group together the other 7.5 billion people on Earth's knowledge. Let me know when you find that source.

I am talking about the recent breaking news of the investigation.
We have a thread now on Avalon, that started with the breaking news.

And much of the information shared on that thread, was shared earlier in the Q posts thread.

Both threads share that information.

I think pretty much anyone who follows what is happening in the world knows about Jeffrey Epstein.

[Hervé]

Mod note:



I moved 26 off topic posts from this thread to their most appropriate booth.

[edina]

Posted by Hervé (here)
Mod note:



I moved 26 off topic posts from this thread to their most appropriate booth.

I do not agree, that is NOT the most appropriate booth.

People in that thread ought not to be subjected to that crap.

Please move them somewhere else.

Geez...

[Hervé]

Posted by edina (here)
[...]
People in that thread ought not to be subjected to that crap.
[...]

Nor do the people on this thread

[Bubu]

Posted by Billy (here)

Posted by Bubu (here)

No I dont trust Bills decision to move the Q threads. I dont trust anyone decision unless it resonates with mine. And I think its perfectly fine. To be clear I trust that Bill is doing his best for the good of this forum and its members. And I respect it. I dont insist.


Yes I have known Bill for quite sometime. I have yelled at him many times. And each time I can only marvel at his actions. So yes Bill has my respect. Hands down the best among forum starters that I have been so far.

Just to clarify, the decision to move the threads was unanimous between all the existing moderators. Not just Bill.

To date the moderators, admin and Bill have absolutely no regrets about the decision

"Can you have a little faith that Bill knows what he's doing,"

[edina]

Posted by Hervé (here)

Posted by edina (here)
[...]
People in that thread ought not to be subjected to that crap.
[...]

Nor do the people on this thread

it was sort of like heaping abuse on top of abuse.

I think they should be soft-deleted.

Most of us are deleting the texts.

They really were infuriating.

I don't know when they were written, but goodness, it was shocking.

[edina]

Posted by Bubu (here)

Posted by Billy (here)

Posted by Bubu (here)

No I dont trust Bills decision to move the Q threads. I dont trust anyone decision unless it resonates with mine. And I think its perfectly fine. To be clear I trust that Bill is doing his best for the good of this forum and its members. And I respect it. I dont insist.


Yes I have known Bill for quite sometime. I have yelled at him many times. And each time I can only marvel at his actions. So yes Bill has my respect. Hands down the best among forum starters that I have been so far.

Just to clarify, the decision to move the threads was unanimous between all the existing moderators. Not just Bill.

To date the moderators, admin and Bill have absolutely no regrets about the decision

"Can you have a little faith that Bill knows what he's doing,"

I think much of the conversation in this thread has stemmed from the confusion as to why Bill started it to begin with.

The mod staff made a decision that affected members, and it seems to me that many did not feel well respected in that decision and/or how it was implemented.

This whole thread reminds me of the 'exercise in futility' that happens at town hall and county meetings where the public is invited to make comments after the commissioners have made their decision.

People are led to believe that by doing so they can effect a change when in reality, nothing they say matters.

[RunningDeer]

How this, Hervé? I created a new thread called, "Q" Booth for Off Topic Posts from Other Threads.

Posted by Hervé (here)
Nor do the people on this thread

Posted by edina (here)
[...]
People in that thread ought not to be subjected to that crap.
[...]

[From Hervé: Thank you Paula ]

[Praxis]

This is a great time to discuss the fact that the mods need to tell the person whose post they moved to where they moved it to. From my POV my post are being deleted. All the people complaining about being censored when some of us are actually being muted and censored.