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Thread: The 'censorship' discussion

  1. Link to Post #141
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Bubu,

    Avalon was becoming recruitment platform for a cult based on a hoax. Not something Avalon should be seen as endorsing. And as it always sat at the very top of the New Posts page, it was looking like that

    It can take years and a lot of damage before people learn from their mistakes, if ever.
    I have thought of that too. But I think hiding it will hamper learning more than help. In fact people often only learn when damage been done.
    There are two ways we can learn, through suffering or inspiration.
    Humans learn best by discovering for themselves.

    This can be done through many methods.

    It's uncanny because where others are seeing a "cult" or "hoax", I see people becoming "inspired".

    It's possible that the high-energy of the Q movement is coming from people doing their own research and in doing so discovering for themselves what many of us have discovered in our own journeys.

    Inspiration is a higher energy state, for sure.
    All the false realities that dwell within duality (including politics) are a bottomless pit. They really do go on forever.
    Information without inspiration is just that, information. It doesn't cultivate true community, nurture our souls or lead to true growth. If I want to teach a child to read, I will inspire a child to read through having fun. I wouldn't try to inspire them by creating suffering for them.

    I would infinity prefer to learn through inspiration
    Last edited by Constance; 12th July 2019 at 20:57.

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  3. Link to Post #142
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Quote The best we can do is try and obtain a neutral and as-objective-as-possible outlook. And unfortunately ─ and now this puts us back onto the topic of this thread ─ there are all too many people whose personal political preferences and lack of an international perspective cause them to rebel against the host of the house where they are guests.
    The problem is, it is all a matter of perspective. What I see on tot is anything right wing being deemed as propaganda, while left wing propaganda reigns unchecked, by members and staff alike
    That is not true. But perhaps you maintain another definition of propaganda. We have no objections to opinions being posted ─ the discussions that spring from opinions are always food for thought, and everyone benefits from that ─ but propaganda is biased and misleading information. And when that gets posted at The One Truth, then we will object to it, whether it's left, right, up or down.

    On the other hand, in turiya's case, it was overt propaganda, and there was no discussion whatsoever, nor did he abide by the staff's requests (and later, insistence) to stop doing it. He simply flipped us the bird and carried on. And whenever we then closed down whatever thread he was posting propaganda to, he would then quickly start an innocent and unrelated thread as a diversion tactic, and then by the next day already, he would continue building up the propaganda again on yet other, already existing threads that he himself hadn't even started. So there was no alternative but to ban him. He was disfiguring our front door, and he was flipping us the bird on account of the rules of the house.

    The people who post left-wing stuff ─ and occasionally left-wing propaganda ─ are being slapped on the wrist just the same, but the difference is that they then acknowledge that they've gone too far, and they will refrain from doing it again ─ barring an occasional slip-up. But that's a long way from an endless and non-stop stream of far-right propaganda being posted, including hate speech and offensive cartoons, and it is an equally long way from people who respect neither the rules of the house nor the members of the staff.
    I know you mean well. I also know you don't know what I'm pointing at. Really, it's fine, either way.

    My own views tend to run the spectrum of any given debate, I care a lot about the environment but I think anthropormophic climate change is propaganda, just by way of example.

    I believe a lot in personal freedom, specifically the first amendment, and I don't believe in hate speech as violence, rather I am more concerned with the violence of antifa against the proponents of free speech, yet I believe absolutely in the right of antifa to argue their views in a non-violent manner.

    I believe in what is endowed in the individual human spirit, and all of it's manifold expressions, and I wouldn't squash it for anything as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another.

    I am perfectly willing to give you or anyone the benefit of a doubt, but at the same time I will call it as I see it. You are welcome to ascribe to me any attributes you perceive as well, and perhaps we we'll find some meeting of the minds. I am not especially hopeful, but life is full of surprises.

    While we sit here tap tap tapping away on keyboards, there's a whole world out there needing our attention, and rather than argue about what is or isn't propaganda, we should be analyzing both to work on our solutions of where do we go from here.

    Leftist neoliberal (corporate controlled) governments have had their heyday, and there is a rise of populism as a result. Populism isn't right or left, regardless of the propaganda to the contrary
    God bless the Fae
    God bless Me

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  5. Link to Post #143
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Bubu,

    Avalon was becoming recruitment platform for a cult based on a hoax. Not something Avalon should be seen as endorsing. And as it always sat at the very top of the New Posts page, it was looking like that

    It can take years and a lot of damage before people learn from their mistakes, if ever.
    I have thought of that too. But I think hiding it will hamper learning more than help. In fact people often only learn when damage been done.
    There are two ways we can learn, through suffering or inspiration.
    Humans learn best by discovering for themselves.

    This can be done through many methods.

    It's uncanny because where others are seeing a "cult" or "hoax", I see people becoming "inspired".

    It's possible that the high-energy of the Q movement is coming from people doing their own research and in doing so discovering for themselves what many of us have discovered in our own journeys.

    Inspiration is a higher energy state, for sure.
    All the false realities that dwell within duality (including politics) are a bottomless pit. They really do go on forever.
    Information without inspiration is just that, information. It doesn't cultivate true community, nurture our souls or lead to true growth. If I want to teach a child to read, I will inspire a child to read through having fun. I wouldn't try to inspire them by creating suffering for them.

    I would infinity prefer to learn through inspiration
    Politics has been given a bad rap in my opinion.

    It's like there is cultural programming to treat political discussion like a sports discussion where people identify with one team or another, and there are winners and losers.

    I remember soon after the 2016 election reading where one of the Senators or Congressman said, "We made a mistake by taking civics out of our school curriculum."

    It was written in the context that there had been a hope (probably in the "demoralization" campaign) to have a disengaged Sovereign Public, so they could get away with doing whatever they want.

    But, in this past election that strategy backfired. They only created a disenfranchised people, and lost control. They've been trying to regain control since.

    Politics ought to be something everyone engages. It is where we make decisions, together. Every voice matters.

    The problem is that the art and science of civil discourse was lost when civics was removed from the classroom. (I think in the 60's).

    The Mockingbird Media is designed to keep people agitated with each other, in every direction.
    That is where most of the manipulation is at.

    Media was supposed to serve to engender an informed public. It was high-jacked.

    The Mockingbird media isn't just Mainstream Media. Over the last ten or so years, I've been surprised to discover that much of so-called alternative media has also been hijacked.

    Politics is a uniquely human activity, therefore it is also a spiritual activity. It's a part of the unity.

    Anytime we try to push something away from us as if it doesn't have a right to exist, it creates duality. This is how the shadow-self is created.

    What we reject goes underground and affects us in ways that we are less consciously aware of.
    Last edited by edina; 12th July 2019 at 21:27.

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  7. Link to Post #144
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    That is right. That old saying, "Whatever we resist persists." rings true to me.

    From where I stand, to be spiritual is to honour the "spirit-in-u-all. So whenever I share it comes from a place that is all-inclusive, relevant, has to be accessible and attainable, practical and it has to honour all beings.

    It is very true - we can decide that we are going to entertain all the false realities such as politics and then there is something else we can also do, we can decide that we can turn our backs on all of the dualistic false realities that no longer serve us. We can transcend all of that and head in a direction that truly serves ourselves and each other.

    It isn't a matter of resisting politics here, we just don't need to entertain it any more as a way of being - we have other possibilities and potentials that can come through divine inspiration. We can turn our backs on the whole lot and start all over again.

    We can focus with laser-like intention on what we really want for ourselves and each other. All the solutions to humanities plight are already on the earth.

    We can truly inspire ourselves and each other if we were to gather around in the hugest huge campfire the world has ever seen, gathering all the brightest hearts and minds from every corner of the globe. If we were to sit in a round table discussion with every sector of community imagine the potentials and possibilities right there?

    All the darkness, where does it go when we switch on the light? I was only sharing this morning that the darkness itself has no real substance - to try to rid ourselves of the dark forces is like scrubbing shadows off the wall. If we can truly put back what is missing (which is the love, light, life) then the darkness cannot resist this.

    Quote Posted by edina (here)

    Politics has been given a bad rap in my opinion.

    It's like there is cultural programming to treat political discussion like a sports discussion where people identify with one team or another, and there are winners and losers.

    I remember soon after the 2016 election reading where one of the Senators or Congressman said, "We made a mistake by taking civics out of our school curriculum."

    It was written in the context that there had been a hope (probably in the "demoralization" campaign) to have a disengaged Sovereign Public, so they could get away with doing whatever they want.

    But, in this past election that strategy backfired. They only created a disenfranchised people, and lost control. They've been trying to regain control since.

    Politics ought to be something everyone engages. It is where we make decisions, together. Every voice matters.

    The problem is that the art and science of civil discourse was lost when civics was removed from the classroom. (I think in the 60's).

    The Mockingbird Media is designed to keep people agitated with each other, in every direction.
    That is where most of the manipulation is at.

    Media was supposed to serve to engender an informed public. It was high-jacked.

    The Mockingbird media isn't just Mainstream Media. Over the last ten or so years, I've been surprised to discover that much of so-called alternative media has also been hijacked.

    Politics is a uniquely human activity, therefore it is also a spiritual activity. It's a part of the unity.

    Anytime we try to push something away from us as if it doesn't have a right to exist, it creates duality. This is how the shadow-self is created.

    What we reject goes underground and affects us in ways that we are less consciously aware of.
    Last edited by Constance; 12th July 2019 at 23:36.

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  9. Link to Post #145
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)

    Politics has been given a bad rap in my opinion.

    It's like there is cultural programming to treat political discussion like a sports discussion where people identify with one team or another, and there are winners and losers.

    I remember soon after the 2016 election reading where one of the Senators or Congressman said, "We made a mistake by taking civics out of our school curriculum."

    It was written in the context that there had been a hope (probably in the "demoralization" campaign) to have a disengaged Sovereign Public, so they could get away with doing whatever they want.

    But, in this past election that strategy backfired. They only created a disenfranchised people, and lost control. They've been trying to regain control since.

    Politics ought to be something everyone engages. It is where we make decisions, together. Every voice matters.

    The problem is that the art and science of civil discourse was lost when civics was removed from the classroom. (I think in the 60's).

    The Mockingbird Media is designed to keep people agitated with each other, in every direction.
    That is where most of the manipulation is at.

    Media was supposed to serve to engender an informed public. It was high-jacked.

    The Mockingbird media isn't just Mainstream Media. Over the last ten or so years, I've been surprised to discover that much of so-called alternative media has also been hijacked.

    Politics is a uniquely human activity, therefore it is also a spiritual activity. It's a part of the unity.

    Anytime we try to push something away from us as if it doesn't have a right to exist, it creates duality. This is how the shadow-self is created.

    What we reject goes underground and affects us in ways that we are less consciously aware of.
    That is right. That old saying, "Whatever we resist persists." rings true to me.

    From where I stand, to be spiritual is to honour the "spirit-in-u-all. So whenever I share it comes from a place that is all inclusive, has to be accessible and attainable, practical and it has to honour all beings.

    It is very true - we can decide that we are going to entertain all the false realities such as politics and then there is something else we can also do, we can decide that we can turn our backs on all of the dualistic false realities that no longer serve us. We can transcend all of that and head in a direction that truly serves ourselves and each other.

    It isn't a matter of resisting politics here, we just don't need to entertain it any more as a way of being - we have other possibilities and potentials that come through divine inspiration. We can turn our backs on the whole lot and start all over again.

    We can focus with laser-like intention on what we really want for ourselves and each other. All the solutions to humanities plight are already on the earth.

    We can truly inspire ourselves and each other if we were to gather around in the hugest huge campfire the world has ever seen, gathering all the brightest hearts and minds from every corner of the globe. If we were to sit in a round table discussion with every sector of community imagine the potentials and possibilities right there?

    All the darkness, where does it go when we switch on the light? I was only sharing this morning that the darkness itself has no real substance - to try to rid ourselves of the dark forces is like scrubbing shadows off the wall. If we can truly put back what is missing (which is the love, light, life) then the darkness cannot resist this.
    You've just described a part of the meaning of the phrase "Dark to Light."

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  11. Link to Post #146
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)

    Politics has been given a bad rap in my opinion.

    It's like there is cultural programming to treat political discussion like a sports discussion where people identify with one team or another, and there are winners and losers.

    I remember soon after the 2016 election reading where one of the Senators or Congressman said, "We made a mistake by taking civics out of our school curriculum."

    It was written in the context that there had been a hope (probably in the "demoralization" campaign) to have a disengaged Sovereign Public, so they could get away with doing whatever they want.

    But, in this past election that strategy backfired. They only created a disenfranchised people, and lost control. They've been trying to regain control since.

    Politics ought to be something everyone engages. It is where we make decisions, together. Every voice matters.

    The problem is that the art and science of civil discourse was lost when civics was removed from the classroom. (I think in the 60's).

    The Mockingbird Media is designed to keep people agitated with each other, in every direction.
    That is where most of the manipulation is at.

    Media was supposed to serve to engender an informed public. It was high-jacked.

    The Mockingbird media isn't just Mainstream Media. Over the last ten or so years, I've been surprised to discover that much of so-called alternative media has also been hijacked.

    Politics is a uniquely human activity, therefore it is also a spiritual activity. It's a part of the unity.

    Anytime we try to push something away from us as if it doesn't have a right to exist, it creates duality. This is how the shadow-self is created.

    What we reject goes underground and affects us in ways that we are less consciously aware of.
    That is right. That old saying, "Whatever we resist persists." rings true to me.

    From where I stand, to be spiritual is to honour the "spirit-in-u-all. So whenever I share it comes from a place that is all inclusive, has to be accessible and attainable, practical and it has to honour all beings.

    It is very true - we can decide that we are going to entertain all the false realities such as politics and then there is something else we can also do, we can decide that we can turn our backs on all of the dualistic false realities that no longer serve us. We can transcend all of that and head in a direction that truly serves ourselves and each other.

    It isn't a matter of resisting politics here, we just don't need to entertain it any more as a way of being - we have other possibilities and potentials that come through divine inspiration. We can turn our backs on the whole lot and start all over again.

    We can focus with laser-like intention on what we really want for ourselves and each other. All the solutions to humanities plight are already on the earth.

    We can truly inspire ourselves and each other if we were to gather around in the hugest huge campfire the world has ever seen, gathering all the brightest hearts and minds from every corner of the globe. If we were to sit in a round table discussion with every sector of community imagine the potentials and possibilities right there?

    All the darkness, where does it go when we switch on the light? I was only sharing this morning that the darkness itself has no real substance - to try to rid ourselves of the dark forces is like scrubbing shadows off the wall. If we can truly put back what is missing (which is the love, light, life) then the darkness cannot resist this.
    You've just described a part of the meaning of the phrase "Dark to Light."
    Actually, what I was describing was the exact opposite. It is the top down, bottom up experience. The love/light/life aspect is what is real. All the false realities we experience are only because we are missing the love/light/life aspects from our lives. It really is just a matter of putting back what is missing from our lives.

    The darkness has no real substance of its own, it is only in the absence of light we have darkness.
    Last edited by Constance; 12th July 2019 at 23:09.

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  13. Link to Post #147
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)

    Politics has been given a bad rap in my opinion.

    It's like there is cultural programming to treat political discussion like a sports discussion where people identify with one team or another, and there are winners and losers.

    I remember soon after the 2016 election reading where one of the Senators or Congressman said, "We made a mistake by taking civics out of our school curriculum."

    It was written in the context that there had been a hope (probably in the "demoralization" campaign) to have a disengaged Sovereign Public, so they could get away with doing whatever they want.

    But, in this past election that strategy backfired. They only created a disenfranchised people, and lost control. They've been trying to regain control since.

    Politics ought to be something everyone engages. It is where we make decisions, together. Every voice matters.

    The problem is that the art and science of civil discourse was lost when civics was removed from the classroom. (I think in the 60's).

    The Mockingbird Media is designed to keep people agitated with each other, in every direction.
    That is where most of the manipulation is at.

    Media was supposed to serve to engender an informed public. It was high-jacked.

    The Mockingbird media isn't just Mainstream Media. Over the last ten or so years, I've been surprised to discover that much of so-called alternative media has also been hijacked.

    Politics is a uniquely human activity, therefore it is also a spiritual activity. It's a part of the unity.

    Anytime we try to push something away from us as if it doesn't have a right to exist, it creates duality. This is how the shadow-self is created.

    What we reject goes underground and affects us in ways that we are less consciously aware of.
    That is right. That old saying, "Whatever we resist persists." rings true to me.

    From where I stand, to be spiritual is to honour the "spirit-in-u-all. So whenever I share it comes from a place that is all inclusive, has to be accessible and attainable, practical and it has to honour all beings.

    It is very true - we can decide that we are going to entertain all the false realities such as politics and then there is something else we can also do, we can decide that we can turn our backs on all of the dualistic false realities that no longer serve us. We can transcend all of that and head in a direction that truly serves ourselves and each other.

    It isn't a matter of resisting politics here, we just don't need to entertain it any more as a way of being - we have other possibilities and potentials that come through divine inspiration. We can turn our backs on the whole lot and start all over again.

    We can focus with laser-like intention on what we really want for ourselves and each other. All the solutions to humanities plight are already on the earth.

    We can truly inspire ourselves and each other if we were to gather around in the hugest huge campfire the world has ever seen, gathering all the brightest hearts and minds from every corner of the globe. If we were to sit in a round table discussion with every sector of community imagine the potentials and possibilities right there?

    All the darkness, where does it go when we switch on the light? I was only sharing this morning that the darkness itself has no real substance - to try to rid ourselves of the dark forces is like scrubbing shadows off the wall. If we can truly put back what is missing (which is the love, light, life) then the darkness cannot resist this.
    You've just described a part of the meaning of the phrase "Dark to Light."
    Actually, what I was describing was the exact opposite. It is the top down, bottom up approach. The love/light/life aspect is what is rea. All the false realities we experience is only because we are missing the love/light/life in our lives. It really is just a matter of putting back what is missing from our lives.

    The darkness has no real substance of its own, it is only in the absence of light we have darkness.
    I look at it as more an inside out, there's the old saying, "Knowledge empowers."

    Like you said, a flip of switch.

    I'm seeing where we agree, and you are seeing where we disagree.
    Last edited by edina; 12th July 2019 at 22:16.

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  15. Link to Post #148
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Censorship... Is it censorship if one can still access the information with really a small bit of effort?

    Might it help to get to the why of it all? Why censor? If you know the 'why' then it is easier to have an opinion about it?

    Reading parts of Bill's statement in the topic about Q topic being moved to member's section:
    "It's not only about 'Q', of course: it's about partisan politics in general, and the unpleasant divisiveness which that all too often engenders. So we might move some other threads there, too.
    ...
    It's really a first step to fix the perception that might be out there, among non-members, that Avalon is a pro-'Q' forum (or even a pro-Trump forum) — which it's not. The discussions, pro and con, have only really ever been primarily between a couple of dozen members.

    But the impression given may be that this is all we care about.
    "

    If I understand this correctly the action of moving certain topics is to manage external optics/opinions regarding this forum. Why would we want to do that? I mean if there is divisiveness between people within the topic (or maybe even in other topics), it's between forum members. I personally think there's nothing wrong with division (at this point of time). What I do think is important is the way the difference in perspective is communicated. Though is that managed effectively by putting it in a members only section? I'd say it is very important for the public to be able to see the process of opposing perspectives moving ahead. Though the manner in which it moves ahead should be managed according to forum guidelines. If too strong partisan mentality/communication is an issue, then I'd say update the forum guidelines and manage them accordingly.

    Looking at the communication offered by Bill to me it feels like a move as a result of not having been able to manage certain topics neutrally/effectively as a moderators collective. Not saying it's an easy task. Though when done right, the public will see the moderators having a neutral role in upholding the forum guidelines. Though if moderators are not displaying neutrality, then yes, I can imagine the perspective of the public being influenced by that. From my perspective it is a management challenge more than anything. Not about left not about right, but about neutrality of the moderators and their capability to uphold the forum guidelines. I know that might be easier said then done, but I think that could be an effective basis.

    If the forum leaders would decide to give the moderators the possibility to show their political preference, then I think it would be good to be open about that and present the forum as such to the public.

    Based on the explanation given by Bill, personally I feel there's no need to hide anything. If there are other motivations, that haven't yet been communicated, then please share, so we all can ponder on it a bit.


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  17. Link to Post #149
    Avalon Member enfoldedblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Feeling very uncomfortable about posting now, just to let you all know. I so don’t like to be misread.
    The forum has changed so much from how I knew it, I now regret that I returned after my two year absense. Once I lose trust I’m gone.
    The main change is that the forum has become [partly] politicized. It was never meant to be a platform for partisan political debate.

    It's only a very few people who have been pushing this. Maybe a better solution would be to close all the political threads. (We could do that, too. I'm not saying that just as a joke.)

    So for anyone reading this, ask yourself whether you (not addressed just to Ulli, but to anyone) might be part of the problem, by continually beating political drums.

    Really, really, really think about that. That's a sincere request.
    I'm a moderator on a large FB group. We decided to allow no political posts through at all. The tiniest whisper of politics had the effect of getting everyone riled up and slagging and attacking. But the group is a spiritual one created to connect and uplift people. It is easy to see how politics doesn't fit with the mission of the group.

    However, Avalon, is very much about exposing and discussing the hidden mechanics of society, of which politics is an integral part.
    So I don't see how politics could be completely avoided without negatively affecting the forum's ability to effectively explore important topics.

    It's funny becauee when pondering the situation I thought, 'the key is really creating a space in which everyone feels safe. A space in which we speak to one another with kindness and respect....never treating another as wrong, only differing. Holding central to the discussion the fact that none of us hold the whole picture.'

    And then I laughed to myself as I realized that even the concept of 'safe space' has become politicized. This division really does go to the heart of human interaction.

    Ultimately I trust that we all want to move forward .... but there seems to be a fork in the road... some people are convinced the path to the right is the right way, others that the left is way. Personally I think maybe there is a middle road, an uncut trail that has not been paved for us, one that we must forge ourselves, that will take us beyond programming to a destination that actuallly works for humanity as a whole.

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  19. Link to Post #150
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by janus (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Does this site belong to BILL RYAN? Or us, his house guests?
    This site does indeed belong to Bill Ryan.

    BUT PA would not exist if it were not for the posters. No posters....no forum, just an empty site.

    If a house guest leaves a piece of his/her property at his house, does that mean the guest forfeits his property to the owner to do with as he pleases?

    That does beg a question...because Bill does own the site, does that include ownership of the posts? In other words....Do we as members give up ownership of our intellectual property (posts) when we become a member?

    Do members have the right to copy and share posts from PA to other forums? With permission from the poster? Without permission from the poster? With or without Bill's permission?

    Does anyone know?
    Here's one answer, at the foot of every page:
    Comments owned by the poster. Copyright © Project Avalon
    That may not be as contradictory as it sounds! What I believe this means is that Avalon has the copyright for the structure and layout, etc — though none of this copyright thing was established by myself. My guess is that Richard (the senior admin before Ilie and Paul) put that there.

    But much more importantly, each member 'owns' each of their own posts.

    I don't care a jot about copyright, anyway. At Camelot, we never copyrighted a thing. And I've never copyrighted any video I've ever published. We wanted things to be copied far and wide.

    Copyright is all about control. Contrary to the opinions of some, I really stand against that.


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  21. Link to Post #151
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by janus (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Does this site belong to BILL RYAN? Or us, his house guests?
    This site does indeed belong to Bill Ryan.

    BUT PA would not exist if it were not for the posters. No posters....no forum, just an empty site.

    If a house guest leaves a piece of his/her property at his house, does that mean the guest forfeits his property to the owner to do with as he pleases?

    That does beg a question...because Bill does own the site, does that include ownership of the posts? In other words....Do we as members give up ownership of our intellectual property (posts) when we become a member?

    Do members have the right to copy and share posts from PA to other forums? With permission from the poster? Without permission from the poster? With or without Bill's permission?

    Does anyone know?
    Here's one answer, at the foot of every page:
    Comments owned by the poster. Copyright © Project Avalon
    That may not be as contradictory as it sounds! What I believe this means is that Avalon has the copyright for the structure and layout, etc — though none of this copyright thing was established by myself. My guess is that Richard (the senior admin before Ilie and Paul) put that there.

    But much more importantly, each member 'owns' each of their own posts.

    I don't care a jot about copyright, anyway. At Camelot, we never copyrighted a thing. And I've never copyrighted any video I've ever published. We wanted things to be copied far and wide.

    Copyright is all about control. Contrary to the opinions of some, I really stand against that.

    There is actually a term for that, Bill ─ it's called copyleft. It mainly pertains to software licensing, but it can also be applied to just about everything else. Sadly enough, it has no legal bearing.

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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.

    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.

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  25. Link to Post #153
    United States Avalon Member
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by janus (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Does this site belong to BILL RYAN? Or us, his house guests?
    This site does indeed belong to Bill Ryan.

    BUT PA would not exist if it were not for the posters. No posters....no forum, just an empty site.

    If a house guest leaves a piece of his/her property at his house, does that mean the guest forfeits his property to the owner to do with as he pleases?

    That does beg a question...because Bill does own the site, does that include ownership of the posts? In other words....Do we as members give up ownership of our intellectual property (posts) when we become a member?

    Do members have the right to copy and share posts from PA to other forums? With permission from the poster? Without permission from the poster? With or without Bill's permission?

    Does anyone know?
    Here's one answer, at the foot of every page:
    Comments owned by the poster. Copyright © Project Avalon
    That may not be as contradictory as it sounds! What I believe this means is that Avalon has the copyright for the structure and layout, etc — though none of this copyright thing was established by myself. My guess is that Richard (the senior admin before Ilie and Paul) put that there.

    But much more importantly, each member 'owns' each of their own posts.

    I don't care a jot about copyright, anyway. At Camelot, we never copyrighted a thing. And I've never copyrighted any video I've ever published. We wanted things to be copied far and wide.

    Copyright is all about control. Contrary to the opinions of some, I really stand against that.

    Thank you for the response, Bill.

    My curiosity is going to get me in trouble at some point, but the only way to get answers is to ask the questions. I just have this insatiable appetite for information, knowledge, understanding...no matter how important or unimportant it may be.

    I stand with you on the issue of copyright. Respect.

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  27. Link to Post #154
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.




    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.
    Well..... hmmm..., the “thank button” truly is just a means for measurement by those in control- a way to take the temperature of the room. And why would we need to have such a measuring stick? For message control or perhaps pandering to the populist opinion?

    Whether it’s a Facebook like, or a forum thank, it’s still a mechanism of control. A popularity contest.
    “The World is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
    Albert Einstein

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  29. Link to Post #155
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.




    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.
    Well..... hmmm..., the “thank button” truly is just a means for measurement by those in control- a way to take the temperature of the room. And why would we need to have such a measuring stick? For message control or perhaps pandering to the populist opinion?

    Whether it’s a Facebook like, or a forum thank, it’s still a mechanism of control. A popularity contest.
    thanked your post, LOL... had too!!!!
    for the fun of it....

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  31. Link to Post #156
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.




    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.
    Well..... hmmm..., the “thank button” truly is just a means for measurement by those in control- a way to take the temperature of the room. And why would we need to have such a measuring stick? For message control or perhaps pandering to the populist opinion?

    Whether it’s a Facebook like, or a forum thank, it’s still a mechanism of control. A popularity contest.
    thanked your post, LOL... had too!!!!
    for the fun of it....
    Marketing via demographics sucks. It is dehumanizing and reduces us to numbers. Market researchers are the worst. Humanity cannot and should not be corralled into some bracket identified by trends. We are all unique, regardless of how or when we arrived here.
    “The World is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
    Albert Einstein

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  33. Link to Post #157
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.




    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.
    Well..... hmmm..., the “thank button” truly is just a means for measurement by those in control- a way to take the temperature of the room. And why would we need to have such a measuring stick? For message control or perhaps pandering to the populist opinion?

    Whether it’s a Facebook like, or a forum thank, it’s still a mechanism of control. A popularity contest.
    thanked your post, LOL... had too!!!!
    for the fun of it....
    Marketing via demographics sucks. It is dehumanizing and reduces us to numbers. Market researchers are the worst. Humanity cannot and should not be corralled into some bracket identified by trends. We are all unique, regardless of how or when we arrived here.
    True, it's the wild cards that throw wrenches into the mix.

    Censorship, in a sense, throws out the wild cards.

    I looked at a book earlier on game theory.

    It's all related.

    Marketing is now more about psycho-graphics rather than demographics.

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  35. Link to Post #158
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Bill, I'm writing this to you.

    Censorship or Boundary Issue?

    I think the word censorship is being unfairly used as a weapon when the issue is boundaries and maturity standards.

    What irks me the most is that the people whining the loudest about censorship are the people who censored all dissenters from their thread for over a year.

    Bill, you said: "we don't want to censor anyone at all. We applaud and support open discussion, if it's conducted with respect, care and understanding."

    "Not censoring anyone at all' can't be practical. Avalon has always had boundaries which is a form of censorship - kicking out people out who 'aren't a good fit' either for personality type or topic. Additionally Avalon has always had some % of threads for members only and no one ever said a word about it - until a pack of obsessed fixed minds started acting entitled and making demands.

    Would you have let a Jim Jones-like evangelical extremist cult get more and more closed off and let them angrily tell you to leave their party alone or you're a big evil censor?? NO. Why not? Because you know they're an isolated unhealthy bunch of deluded people you don't want to help feed. So why feed ANY UNHEALTHY SUBJECT let alone any unhealthy minds obviously not in the least here at Avalon to listen/learn? Q may be a valid discussion topic but not as a feeding trough for unhealthy one-sided cult forming.

    What you really have now is a pack of evangelical Q extremists who want to be left alone and are trying to push you around. They've complained loudly every time a dissenter crossed their boundary, then they lost their gatekeeper and are now frantically trying to guilt-trip you with the loaded word 'censorship' to get you to take orders for continued special treatment. I don't see any difference between this entitled behavior than I got from my righteous, disrespectful, demanding, immature teenager who was hopelessly resistant to logic and reasoning until he grew up and the light went on.

    You are acutely aware that this small, tightknit faction is completely ignoring everything that has firmly convinced you otherwise and they're driving away many of the people you've respected for years who know it too.

    So I don't see why you should feel guilty about tightening Avalon's member qualification boundaries to a higher standard of behavior and maturity and removing anyone who's hopelessly indoctrinated/cognitive dissonant regardless of the subject. Do you really want Avalon to be a place to coddle, babysit and wait and wait and wait for hopelessly deluded minds to grow up while they keep repeating their entitled behavior? It's like an oil leak started and kept spreading, and oil and water will never mix in a forum. Hopelessly.

    OIL: Cognitive Dissonant Minds/Only attracted to sources and other people that further support their fixed decision about what ONLY can be true -
    ALWAYS COCKSURE, INDIGNANT, VERY LIMITED SCOPE OF AWARENESS OF A SUBJECT, EASILY EGO THREATENED WHEN CHALLENGED, ANGRILY DISMISS INCONVENIENT FACTS, HOPELESSLY STUCK IN THEIR FIXED OPINION.

    WATER: Flexible open minds /Always on the lookout for where they might improve and eliminate wrong thinking -
    LISTENERS/LEARNERS, WILLING TO CHANGE, NATURALLY RESPECTFULLY DISCUSS AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND OTHER, EGO IS FAR MORE INTERESTED IN TRUTH AND ACCURACY THAN BEING PERSONALLY RIGHT - IN AN EFFORT TO GET SMARTER INSTEAD OF CLING TO ANY MISTAKEN THINKING.

    To me these are the questions on the Avalon table right now regarding about 10-20 or so of your 10,000 members:

    1. You continued: "... if it's conducted with respect, care and understanding." OK, then what do you owe any member who has proven themselves to be hopelessly unwilling to try to understand other - either within the Q subject or anyone making lots of interruptive, clueless comments with a superiority attitude in threads totally over their head?

    2. What would you really lose by kicking out the hopelessly closed minded? Do you really care if only the hopelessly deluded/indoctrinated call you a censor?

    It's like you're afraid to lose any member - like there aren't multitudes of much more mature minds looking for a high standard place to meet. If the house was cleaned and standards raised those others would start being attracted here again. AGAIN is the operative word.

    As it stands, long time respected members are running off or starting less and less threads for being disheartened by the abundance of shallow, arrogant mindsets that keep disrupting threads with dead wrong assumptions, projections and fixed thinking narrow opinions - like is massively happening by many of the group in question on just this thread.

    I think any of these types throwing a tantrum right now with their arms crossed - especially those flatly refusing to understand what is so convincing to so many others regarding Q - gives you every right to say "you don't belong here until you figure out why because you're unable to grasp any explanation I can give you right now."

    Imagine a year from now when Avalon is back to high level, challenging posts, great minds who listen, comprehend and consider before posting become the norm again and boundaries are known... or you know you'll get kicked out. I think you'd be glad you did and the deluded will still be the poor victims cursing you. You already know destiny is just dragging out way too long already for exposing who another round of history's manipulated have been.

    Bill, I urge you to take a bold stand for what your knowledge and experience has taught you, plug the oil leak and raise the bar here by tightening the boundaries of who/what fits and doesn't fit at Avalon.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Further, considering the very suspicious worldwide escalation of flagrant weather warfare genocide and massive infrastructure destruction going on RIGHT NOW, I say it's time to let the hopelessly cognitive dissonant fend for themselves, they're not listening, possibly truly unable for now. They can return when the light comes on and by next year we might really appreciate having begun to re-attract back the truth community's most mature, educated and non-deluded minds in one place for soon to be very needed cohesive unity and leadership.
    Last edited by waves; 13th July 2019 at 04:17.

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  37. Link to Post #159
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by edina (here)
    Quote Posted by AriG (here)
    Quote Posted by Denise/Dizi (here)
    Quote Posted by Aragorn (here)
    Addendum: I find it quite telling that ─ just as over at The One Truth ─ the Thanks button always ends up being used as a means to let one's passive-aggressiveness seep through. I've only been back for a short while, and yet it is always the same people who will not thank my posts while eagerly thanking the posts of the people who disagree with me.




    Here's a hint for the petty-minded: it's a "thanks" button, not a "like" button.
    For the record, I "Thank" all posters on a thread that I am reading, (Unless I accidentally miss some).. whether I agree or not with what they're saying, merely because they took the time to share what they were thinking, good, bad, or otherwise...

    It is just "Polite" to thank others for their contribution of time.. So for the record, please do not assume that I agree with a particular view of a member, merely because I am "Thanking them" that I agree with what someone has shared. You gave me the opportunity to express my stance on that, Thank You.
    Well..... hmmm..., the “thank button” truly is just a means for measurement by those in control- a way to take the temperature of the room. And why would we need to have such a measuring stick? For message control or perhaps pandering to the populist opinion?

    Whether it’s a Facebook like, or a forum thank, it’s still a mechanism of control. A popularity contest.
    thanked your post, LOL... had too!!!!
    for the fun of it....
    HAHAHAHA Sorry.. Couldn't help it, and thought the laugh would be appreciated for a change..
    Last edited by Denise/Dizi; 13th July 2019 at 05:29.

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  39. Link to Post #160
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    Default Re: The 'censorship' discussion

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    What if the members indulging the hoax grow in numbers, and, while they're sorting out the Q thing, begin taking over the energy of the entire forum....causing many long standing members to leave?

    What then?

    I appreciate your sentiment but it's not quite as cut and dry as it may seem
    Thanks Mike for another reminder that backstage there is much more going on than what we are discussing on this and other threads.

    So I’m going to make a hypothesis. DISCLAIMER: “a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth”.

    Several months ago I received a PM asking me to join forces to help publicly shut down a researcher (R) and his thread. (Not Q thread) In attempts to convince me that (R) had no place on Avalon I was told that moderators and other members felt the same way.

    A tactic that: (a) implied this person was part of a privileged inner circle, and (b) was attempting to apply group pressure to sway me behind closed doors.

    I refused to engage in this plan and made it clear I thought it was unethical to speak on behalf of others this way, especially when I had no way of verifying if it was true.

    It deeply concerned me that members who are acutely aware of the lack of transparency in covert operations that control societies with secret task forces were actually engaging in the same type of behaviour that they opposed.

    HYPOTHESIS 1

    From my observations since – (way too many to list here and I am deliberately choosing not to specifically name members or topics; except for you Dennis, sorry, nothing personal) – my hypothesis is that there is a tight group of members, with loose affiliates, who have made a “behind closed doors” pact to target the removal of a few topics on Avalon that have been gaining more press coverage than their own threads/posts.

    This group were struggling so they needed a leader who was well liked, prone to being dogmatic, and had sufficient clout to engage in the mods arena. Dennis became the voice and hero the group needed and although Q is predominantly focussed on at the moment there have been remarks made in the same vein for other topics. Dennis has also publicly stated that he tried very hard behind closed doors to convert Paul to accept his beliefs as gospel.

    WHY

    I think the long standing members of this group have grown accustomed to Avalon being “their garden” and any topics they don’t see value in become weeds. So they march over to the weeds and cry for help to pluck them out of existence.

    Problem is the weeds are not viewed by everyone to be weeds. There has been amazing intellectual discourse and debate over the Q topic being removed from public view, so much so that the weed killers are clutching at straws by making fanatical, extremist, insulting remarks as to what Q researchers are; e.g. sociopathic Nazis sympathizers, necrophiliacs.

    I view Avalon as a garden that is growing and expanding; not a garden for "a self appointed privileged membership” to choose what flowers are planted and tended to. Avalon has proved over time that if real weeds do pop up they will eventually wither and die because of the strength of the garden. And as many have pointed out, weeds need to be investigated and studied, along with flowers.

    I think members who aren’t happy that their “flowers” are currently dormant need to remind themselves that all members have the right to grow flowers and that flowers can be, and are, seasonal.

    And the argument to clean out the “little flower growers” so Avalon can become a place solely for “the self appointed privileged intellectuals” is ludicrous. How is preaching only to the choir going to change the world?

    HYPOTHESIS 2

    Emotional Terrorism? Hope this isn’t happening, but from pieces of the puzzle I can’t rule it out.

    Did long standing members threaten to leave if Q thread wasn’t removed from public viewing, and are these long standing members threatening to leave if the Q thread is put back into public view, via PM’s to moderators and Bill Ryan. And how is this a problem when there are also members publicly saying they are considering leaving re the “censorship” because it goes against their value system?

    Doing it behind closed doors is cowardly and is emotional blackmail because the language is most likely appealing and exploiting along the lines of “friendship and caring” and “Avalon owes me” and “Avalon will crumble without me and those like me”, etc which clouds the intellectual determinations. It also doesn’t allow the intelligence within this community to engage openly to support those struggling with retirement decisions.

    So I say: Call the bluff! Longstanding members may leave. Some may never return. But history reveals that many will return because they are invested in this garden. At any rate Avalon will survive; and who knows maybe some of the lurkers will come out and plant a few seeds because they will feel safe from the intimidation that oozes from some long standing members who blatantly and literally label themselves as being more intelligent, sophisticated, aware, awake, blah blah, when they judge and whine over what others contribute. These judgments are extreme hubris demanding privileges and fracturing equality in the process.

    I’ve been browsing Avalon daily for years. Many times I see a new thread pop up and think Oh God, not another one. No biggie. I just glide on down and select what I have the time to be interested in. I could never justify going into those threads and demanding they be removed from public view, or slinging off about them in other threads, because I’m done with that topic so everyone else should be.

    IS IT TIME TO FINISH THIS

    We’re never going to know the full story. No matter how many well informed, intelligent, reasonable, civil discourses we have, (which are a testament to the Avalon membership), there’s always going to be the missing pieces of this Q puzzle that prevent clarity over what’s happening.

    We cherish the right to vote. So let’s actually vote. (No opinion poll)

    YES or NO. SHOULD THE Q THREADS BE PLACED BACK INTO PUBLIC VIEW.

    Perhaps allow 2 weeks for voters to contribute. And whatever the result, let’s all concede to live with it.
    Last edited by Gemma13; 13th July 2019 at 05:41.

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