+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

  1. Link to Post #1
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks
    5,977
    Thanked 4,648 times in 999 posts

    Default Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    American historian Christopher R. Browning’s comparison between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany is deeply troublesome. An expert specializing in origins of Nazi genocide, Browning has leveled very serious accusations against the Trump Administration and the current government of the United States. We custodians of history should preserve its lessons to ensure we do not repeat the mistakes of the past; in short, we should not take these accusations lightly. We should suspend bias and subjectivity, if possible, and determine if Browning’s observations merit concern.

    I responded to this essay off-the-cuff here, but find the quality of his analysis so problematic I’m left to categorize it only as fear porn instead of honest intellectual discourse. Consequently, I feel compelled, for the record, to respond in a much more detailed and critical way.

    The main problem with Browning’s assertion isn’t so much his thesis or potential warnings against the rise of fascism in America (we should explore this further), but rather the degree to which his rhetoric is laden with presumptions, loaded with misnomers, and frankly, misinformed.

    Foremost is the tacit presumption underlying Browning’s entire argument, e.g. “autonomous nation states” and “isolationism” are bad. Are they bad? If so, why and how? What degree of isolationism is good? Can we discern some virtue from vice here? Or is this simply a two-dimensional equation?

    Browning assumes a two-dimensional equation his readers should accept as gospel, e.g., globalism good/isolationism bad, despite the fact the United States of America, a Constitutional Republic founded by and for the people, maintains a deep skepticism of global entanglements as the direct result of breaking away from the suffering yolk of tyrannical monarchy. Browning rejects the cornerstone on which the country was founded and tacitly condemns isolationist sentiment, presumably because withdrawal from the world stage might lead to social conditions rife for murderous dictatorship. However, should we not discuss the point or at least support this notion without presuming it?

    According to the essay, President Trump is systematically dismantling the international structure responsible for peace and stability for seven decades since WWII. This analysis implies a parallel to Nazi Germany’s role in upending world stability in the 1930s, and while it is true there hasn’t been a world war since 1945, I would ask him, what peace and stability is he talking about? Since WWII the planet has been in a state of perpetual warfare and conflict and the US Regime alone has killed 20 – 30 million people. Moreover, lost in his presumption of world stability is the fact that, save for an extinction level event, e.g., an asteroid striking the planet or the eruption of the Yellowstone Caldera, democide, under the auspices of ever-concentrating government, is the most deadly threat known to humanity. The death toll of democide is estimated at as much as six times greater than the death toll of the totality of human warfare in past century. Let’s think about that. What is really more dangerous to human life? So-called “international anarchy” between nation states? Or concentrated power of government? In short, the march towards globalism is hardly peaceful, especially when lesser powers or hapless people oppose its agenda.

    Dishonest discourse often avoids critical support of its underlying presumptions. Instead, misnomers and loaded rhetoric conflate presumptions with negative and positive values, e.g. rhetoric like “xenophobic” is interchanged with “nationalism”; “hegemony of white Anglo-Saxon protestants” and “white-anti-immigration” is interchanged with “immigration”. These words assume a qualifying support of the thesis without proper examination. Words like “national self interest” are interchanged with “specious pretext”, “Helsinki Summit” is interchanged with “abasement before Putin” and “law enforcement” is interchanged with “shameful separation of families at the border”. Finally, misnomers morph into all-out political talking points, e.g., “governing style” interchanges with “huge tax cuts for the wealthy” (a debatable assertion, at best, if not outright inaccurate). In any case, all these concepts are loaded with tabloid sensationalism that discredits his argument; none are critically examined or explored.

    I would agree there is some danger to isolationism and unabashed nationalism. Sentiments of tribalism may also complicate the current immigration conflict on the U.S. border, but these are hardly two-dimensional issues. They certainly are not interchangeable terms with the pejoratives Browning employs, and it is beyond reproach for an honest historian to conflate these terms.

    Specifically, if we are to entertain Browning’s presumptions, we should first establish why some Americans—particularly those who support nationalism and the Trump administration’s retreat from various machinations of the international order—are suspicious of globalism. This may provide insight about whether the same prejudices and public complicity that gave rise to the Nazi regime also apply to the collective sensibility of American people, and particularly to those who support the Trump Administration’s America First campaign. Simply, why are Americans suspicions of globalism? Are these worldviews really dangerous and ill-conceived? Why or why not? However, we already know the answers to these questions if we blindly subscribe to the presumptions underlying the essay, i.e. Americans who reject globalism, and specifically those who support the Trump Administration, are xenophobic and bigoted. But do these ad hominem presumptions stand to reason? I’m willing to have the discussion, as it seems integral to the issue. I am also willing to embrace globalism—and condemn a certain brand of nationalism--but only after honest and critical analysis.

    To give Browning a pass, intellectual elites often harbor deep-seated biases for planetary government; this is given in university discourse, this is given in social sciences; this is given in think tanks tasked with solving planetary problems, and this bias is apparent in Suffocation of Democracy. We plebs and the planet’s resources require hands-on management; world population requires curtailment (a euphemism for systematic culling); world peace requires global governance. Moreover, the rhetoric of intelligentsia is often laden with subtle presumptions designed to precipitate the onset of global government, regardless of whether such rhetoric is a deliberate flourish of the pen or an unconscious bias. For example, when tackling collective planetary problems academics employ words like “ecological disaster” synonymously with “human-caused climate change” and present their connection as given, even though an honest scientific examination of the question raises valid doubts as to whether or not anthropogenic climate change is a real issue. In other words, the solution presupposes the problem. The Club of Rome, Agenda 21, Trilateral Commission--all examples of organizations with objectives toward this end. But here’s the thing: while these organizations may be founded on noble intentions, they are nonetheless authoritarian in nature and global in scale and therefore problematic.

    I will be blunt. The virtues of globalism are hardly givens, which is especially apparent when cheerleaders like Browning fail to maintain a balanced viewpoint. If I am mistaken on this point, let’s discuss. Why or why not? If the populist trend sweeping the globe circa 2019 is indeed backward and paranoid and dangerous, as tacitly implied in Suffocation of Democracy, let’s discuss. However, that discussion may yield unsolicited conclusions, namely that populism is the organic reaction to ill-conceived concepts of concentrated power ever encroaching on the interests, civic liberties, and the lives of the planet’s population. Whatever the case, Browning does not address these questions but instead ascribes negative value judgments on them. Moreover, he ascribes judgments commensurate with social conditions responsible for the Holocaust without an appropriate level of examination.

    I would submit, as a counter to these presuppositions, the machinations of globalism present the very dangers Browning is railing against. We are seeing a concerted move toward fascism, but not the brand Browning describes. We are seeing a neutralization of the free press and the prioritization of law and order above individual rights. Anyone paying attention understands we are already amid a fascist transformation (well before Donald Trump came on the scene), and, for better or worse, we are on our way toward a corporatist brand of world governance. The rogue administration of Donald Trump’s Presidency has merely thrown an inconvenient wrench in the machinations driving this march.

    Put another way, Browning’s arguments can be applied to the incipience of globalism itself. Observing the fascist evolution of corporate globalism is an assessment so expansive with example and supporting evidence a mere survey of the facts would derail this discussion. I will be blunt again. Globalism is dangerous. At the very least, it can be dangerous, even given the noblest intentions. Not because it fosters racism and xenophobia (as is the critique of nationalism), but because it fosters conditions rife for the most horrific dystopia imaginable and for the mass enslavement of the species. The yolk of globalism, at its natural conclusion of global government, will produce a stranglehold never before known to humankind. It will foster conditions rife for the very real prospect of inescapable tyrannical oppression. If, as Washington observed, government is like fire, a dangerous servant and fearful master, then global government is like a mushroom cloud, a fearful servant and potential extinction-inducing master. Government is dangerous indeed. And global government, without any checks or balances, is as dangerous as it gets. Global government has all the earmarks to usher in its wake death and destruction in unimaginable quantities, all in the name of virtue and righteousness. If and when we reach this threshold as a species, what Huxley described as the Ultimate Revolution and what Orwell described as a boot on a human face forever, there will be absolutely nothing any of us will be able to do to remedy it. I would ask Browning of the presumptions underlying his essay: is this really the world we want to live in? Where checks and balances are nonexistent? Why should anyone who understands the horrors of history embrace this particular brand of governance?

    To be fair, Browning is not advancing a specific argument supporting global government or even globalism, but he is arguing against nationalism and hides no disdain for Donald Trump and his supporters who are impeding its forward march by embracing the dreadful domestic policy of America First. With great irony, historians who launch tacit pejoratives at those who harbor suspicions of globalism fail to consider history itself. Americans, as a lot, are generally very suspicious of government. This is just our nature; it is an integral part of our history as a people; it is woven into the very Constitutional system of our government and is an integral part of our collective soul; it is the very spirit on which our nation was formed. I do not mean to imply we Americans are anarchists; we do, as a generalization, recognize the necessity and virtue of government, but for the most part we subscribe to the notion that government is best and most virtuous when the centers of power are concentrated closest to the people. The further the centers of power from the people, the more susceptible to corruption and tyranny. This is just common sense. In other words, city hall is preferable to provincial government; provincial government is preferable to state government; state government is preferable to federal government; and federal government is preferable to world government. People well understand everyday women or men have absolutely no recourse or remedy against the whims of tyrannical world government, but they can certainly organize a successful uprising against the whims of tyrannical city hall. These facts appear inconvenient for Browning, who instead ascribes negative value judgments on national characteristics. Again, the message is clear: globalism good/nationalism bad.

    The ad hominen attack on nationalism and subtle biases in Suffocation of Democracy are not the only problems with this essay. Browning also misinforms his readers. An academic with Browning’s credentials should know the United States of America is not a Democracy. The United States of America is a Constitutional Republic. How is that-which-we-are-not being suffocated? He rails against gerrymandering, the electoral collage, and the fact that the popular vote has been subverted in four of the past five presidential elections. But this is precisely by design; we are not a people governed by mob rule. Two wolves and one sheep should not determine the evening menu.

    Browning also claims a new brand of “alternative facts propaganda” has emerged in the incarnation of Fox News (programming favorable to the President’s agenda) and likens the broadcast to Joseph Goebbel’s Ministry of Propaganda. The “critical free press”, in contrast, e.g. PBS, CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post and The New York Times (media outlets broadcasting factual news critical to the President Trump) has been effectively neutralized by Presidential decree. This, however, is a blatant mischaracterization of the media. In reality, the news outlets Browning cites, including Fox News, as well as 90% of all information available via mediated experience to the American people, does not remotely resemble a “free press” network; this premise misinforms and is patently false. The aforementioned outlets more precisely makeup an information cartel and comprise a highly sophisticated propaganda apparatus that would make Joseph Geobbels blush. The cartel is concentrated in ownership among six mega corporations and its sole objective is to manage accordingly the public perception of the governing power structure, per the interests of the governing power structure, and per the interests of its corporate-oligarch overlords, e.g. Big Pharma, Big Tech, the Food and Military Industrial Complexes, etc. Facts and truth are irrelevant to the purpose of achieving its objective, save for when facts and truth effectively serve the objective. This dynamic is well known to serious scholars who study the epistemology of mediated experience in the milieu of corporate globalism, and Browning, a historian, should know better. In short, there is no such thing as “free press” in America. Indeed, the people themselves understand this at some visceral level, which is a direct consequence that gives “fake news” its moniker and legs. Certainly “fake news” did not become a cultural meme because a potential dictator effectively neutralized the “critical free press” with slight-of-hand trickery. Memes do not become memes without underlying veracity. But perhaps the greatest irony to Browning’s implication to the contrary, aside from the fact that it elucidates a President at odds with the power structure by challenging its propaganda apparatus (which does nothing but delight his supporters), is the inescapable conclusion that it’s all fake news at the end of the day, and the "real free press," i.e., the independent press and particularly atomized journalists and independent bloggers genuinely critical of globalism and of the power structure itself, are systemically censored, supressed, and banned in a narrative reminiscent of the biblical story of David and Goliath. Indeed, Browning may be on to the rise of fascism in America, although he has honed in on it through the entirely wrong lens.

    Another example of misinforming his readers centers on the concept of “illiberal democracy”, and by implication, its rapid rise aside the Trump Presidency; illiberal democracy is the notion that democratic elections are largely ceremonial, irrelevant, and insufficient to check authoritarian power. While I do not disagree with his assessment, I am compelled to point out this observation is hardly unique to the Trump administration or to the American political process in general; where has Mr. Browning been? Georgetown historian Carroll Quigley accurately outlined this very dynamic in his 1966 seminal work, Tragedy and Hope, and then again in 1981 when he delved even deeper into discourse exposing the detailed machinations of power in Anglo-American Establishment. Is it dishonest to imply Donald Trump and his cohorts in Congress have suddenly rendered democratic institutions feckless to a burgeoning continuity of power that supersedes elected officials and survives election cycles. If Browning is just now becoming aware of this dynamic, he is several decades late to the party.

    In closing, I see this as nothing but a political hit piece designed to polarize observers who do not have a sufficient background of the facts to discern the complexities of Browning’s argument from his unconscious biases and from the underlying dynamic driving the current political struggle in America. Indeed, we should be wary and skeptical of President Trump’s rogue approach to managing the problems Browning addresses in his essay. We should also hold his feet (and our government) to the fire if that rogue approach genuinely threatens world stability. But in holding our leaders’ feet to the fire, we should not thrown them into the flames with dishonest rhetoric and analysis meant only to score political points against our ideological opponents. Rather, we should convince by persuasion and reason. That is the democratic way of civil societies.

    That is not the way of this essay. Its title may well have been How to Thrown your Political Opponent on the Third Rail, by Christopher R. Browning, Expert of Electromagnetism.
    Last edited by T Smith; 16th July 2019 at 03:49.

  2. The Following 35 Users Say Thank You to T Smith For This Post:

    anandacate (18th July 2019), Aragorn (16th July 2019), Arcturian108 (17th July 2019), Ba-ba-Ra (16th July 2019), Bill Ryan (16th July 2019), Blacklight43 (16th July 2019), BushPilot (16th July 2019), Chris Gilbert (17th July 2019), ClearWater (16th July 2019), David Trd1 (20th July 2019), Delight (17th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (16th July 2019), edina (17th July 2019), Ernie Nemeth (18th July 2019), Franny (16th July 2019), Iancorgi (17th July 2019), Isserley (16th July 2019), Jayke (16th July 2019), justntime2learn (17th July 2019), KiwiElf (17th July 2019), Kryztian (17th July 2019), Mutchie (17th July 2019), NancyV (17th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), PurpleLama (19th July 2019), Sadieblue (17th July 2019), samsdice (16th July 2019), section9 (17th July 2019), Star Mariner (17th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (18th July 2019), toppy (17th July 2019), ulli (18th July 2019), Valerie Villars (17th July 2019), Wind (17th July 2019), yelik (17th July 2019)

  3. Link to Post #2
    Canada Avalon Member
    Join Date
    23rd September 2017
    Posts
    675
    Thanks
    61
    Thanked 2,347 times in 569 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Why does the cabal that supported Hitler want Trump out of office so badly? I'm talking about known psychopaths such as the Clintons, Bushes, people and agencies doing MK Ultra, drug and arms dealing, pedophile rings etc., exposed by people such as Cathy O'Brien, Cody Snodgres and many others. Are these psychos going to save Americans from Trump?

  4. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to TomKat For This Post:

    anandacate (18th July 2019), Arcturian108 (17th July 2019), Bill Ryan (17th July 2019), chris_walker (17th July 2019), conk (18th July 2019), David Trd1 (20th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (18th July 2019), frankstien (17th July 2019), JRS (17th July 2019), NancyV (17th July 2019), OldArcher (18th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (18th July 2019), T Smith (17th July 2019), toppy (17th July 2019)

  5. Link to Post #3
    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
    Join Date
    12th January 2012
    Posts
    2,681
    Thanks
    4,962
    Thanked 11,623 times in 2,357 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Observing the fascist evolution of corporate globalism is an assessment so expansive with example and supporting evidence a mere survey of the facts would derail this discussion. I will be blunt again. Globalism is dangerous. At the very least, it can be dangerous, even given the noblest intentions. Not because it fosters racism and xenophobia (as is the critique of nationalism), but because it fosters conditions rife for the most horrific dystopia imaginable and for the mass enslavement of the species. The yolk of globalism, at its natural conclusion of global government, will produce a stranglehold never before known to humankind. It will foster conditions rife for the very real prospect of inescapable tyrannical oppression. If, as Washington observed, government is like fire, a dangerous servant and fearful master, then global government is like a mushroom cloud, a fearful servant and potential extinction-inducing master. Government is dangerous indeed. And global government, without any checks or balances, is as dangerous as it gets. Global government has all the earmarks to usher in its wake death and destruction in unimaginable quantities, all in the name of virtue and righteousness. If and when we reach this threshold as a species, what Huxley described as the Ultimate Revolution and what Orwell described as a boot on a human face forever, there will be absolutely nothing any of us will be able to do to remedy it. I would ask Browning of the presumptions underlying his essay: is this really the world we want to live in? Where checks and balances are nonexistent? Why should anyone who understands the horrors of history embrace this particular brand of governance?
    I think your analysis is spot on. Just highlighted this part as it touches on my concerns. Thanks.

  6. The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to Delight For This Post:

    anandacate (18th July 2019), Angels1981 (17th July 2019), Bill Ryan (17th July 2019), BushPilot (17th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (17th July 2019), edina (17th July 2019), Kryztian (17th July 2019), NancyV (17th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), PurpleLama (19th July 2019), ramus (17th July 2019), Star Mariner (17th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (17th July 2019), T Smith (17th July 2019), toppy (17th July 2019), ulli (18th July 2019), Valerie Villars (17th July 2019), Wind (17th July 2019)

  7. Link to Post #4
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks
    5,977
    Thanked 4,648 times in 999 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Why does the cabal that supported Hitler want Trump out of office so badly? I'm talking about known psychopaths such as the Clintons, Bushes, people and agencies doing MK Ultra, drug and arms dealing, pedophile rings etc., exposed by people such as Cathy O'Brien, Cody Snodgres and many others. Are these psychos going to save Americans from Trump?
    They want him out of office because they can't effectively control him. He is a wildcard. They don't care about America or what Trump may or may not do to America (as long as it does not impede their own designs); they care about their agenda.

    There are many who believe Trump is just a puppet like all those before him, but I would say they are categorically mistaken on this point. If that were true the media and establishment would not be so openly hostile. I believe we really do have a unique situation.

    Don't get me wrong. This doesn't necessarily make Trump a hero or a villain; it just makes him a wildcard. Browning actually advances this same argument with Hitler (and I assume this is one reason he is launching the comparisons), i.e. the cabal only supported Hitler in the beginning. Hitler was installed chancellor because the old right assumed they could exploit him, as a tool, to fulfill their conservative agenda (he was a brilliant and charismatic politician, a perfect front man), and for a time Hitler and the old guard cooperated in dismantling the democratic institutions of the Weimar Republic. But Hitler apparently had his own plans and spun out of control. By then he and the Nazi party had grown too powerful and the old guard was powerless to hinder him. They had created a monster. Or so says Browning.

    Similarly, the power structure is not in direct control of Donald Trump. They are playing him (or trying to play him) as a parent plays a child, and in this sense they still maintain some control. But they have to be delicate and clever about how they play him (they certainly don't want to get sent to the corn field). Unfortunately I think they may have the upper hand in this struggle. If they really want their war with Iran I suspect they will probably figure out a way to get it. But I hope I'm mistaken on this point.

    In other words, the strategy they are employing to control Trump (unlike the explicit control they maintained over Obama, Clinton, Bush et. al, whom they sponsored and groomed) is to cajole him. Appeal to his ego. Tom Sawyer him. He can't (and won't) be commandeered like the Presidents before him. But I suspect they believe they can still control him.

    Put another way, when stockholders of a corporation hire a manager, they hire her or him to do their bidding. If said manager has his own agenda, or can't be controlled, you need to get rid of your manager. I would submit the entire enterprise of trying to "manage" Donald Trump is tiresome and an annoyance, as in dealing with a recalcitrant and unruly teenager, so they either have to figure out a way to take away the car keys or kick him out of the house. As far as I can tell they are pursuing both strategies.
    Last edited by T Smith; 17th July 2019 at 13:33.

  8. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to T Smith For This Post:

    Arcturian108 (17th July 2019), Bill Ryan (17th July 2019), Delight (17th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (17th July 2019), KiwiElf (17th July 2019), NancyV (17th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), ramus (17th July 2019), Sadieblue (17th July 2019), Star Mariner (17th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (17th July 2019), toppy (17th July 2019), ulli (17th July 2019), Valerie Villars (17th July 2019), Wind (17th July 2019), yelik (17th July 2019)

  9. Link to Post #5
    Avalon Member T Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th January 2011
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks
    5,977
    Thanked 4,648 times in 999 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    German historian Thomas Weber wages a more honest comparison here between Trump and Hitler, but with the same underlying biases and presumptions employed by Browning (I was amazed by the plethora of hysteria from quasi-academics after a simple Google search inquiring if Trump was Hitler … apparently there is no end to intellectuals advancing similar arguments as Browning comparing Donald Trump to Adolph Hitler. None of the results of the Google search, however, three to four pages deep, outright refute the notion, and those that begrudgingly concede the comparison is weak or unwarranted (as Weber does) are nonetheless only allowed through Google’s algorithms, apparently, if they maintain the same anti-Trump biases). My concern here is this: regardless what one thinks of Donald Trump, his approach, or the possible dangers he poses to world stability, how are we plebs expected to think critically on any issue—especially one as important as this—without access to balanced and uncensored information? I fear we are ever-approaching an “end game” as far as mind control goes, aimed at destroying free will, rendering the masses incapable of thinking or acting otherwise than the gatekeepers of information wish.

    But, let’s delve into this one:

    Weber observes some important similarities between Trump and Hitler; both are anti-politicians, both exploit rhetoric aimed at fixing their countries, both observe their country as the citizenry knows it will not survive without remedying action. These are all factual and accurate comparisons, but laden with very subtle and powerfully manipulative suggestions, e.g., Fixing America Bad/Keeping America on Path of Established International Order Good.

    It is true Donald Trump employs rhetoric aimed at “fixing” America (by retreating from its fast-paced march to globalism); it is also true this rhetoric appeals to the emotions and passions and prejudices of the people. But that’s what all successful politicians do (which is why politics is so distasteful in the first place); I can not think of one high-ranking elected official who is not a demagogue. Is this really unique to DJT? One can almost universally interchange the words “demagoguery” and “political rhetoric” without compromising clarity of thought to the slightest degree; it is also true America “won’t survive” on its current trajectory (that is, as a sovereign nation, save as a vassal state subservient to the power structure and emerging juggernaut of corporate globalism) but are these presumptions really negative observations, as implied? Why or why not? We are led to believe the presumption underlying the essay is not only negative but also dangerous and potentially disastrous. Again, let's discuss. However, Weber, like Browning, does not address the question and simply implies a negative connotation we should embrace as gospel. Moreover, I would argue he implies a connotation entirely divorced from reality, but what half of the political divide nonetheless embrace with impassioned fervor, mainly due to the avalanche of arguments like Weber's, which endlessly circulate through the establishment's propaganda apparatus. The idea goes like this: the middle class in America is losing out (they are) and Trump is exploiting their prejudices and discontent (like Hitler did). But instead of exploring the real issues fueling the wave of populism, which I would suggest is the emergence of corporate globalism gutting prosperity and the American middle class and the people's inalienable rights, propagandists conflate Trump's idea of “fixing” America to a retreat back to Jim Crow, the restoration of institutional racism, and a "sanctioned" embrace of White Supremacy, anti-progressive ideals, and bigoted values. This is a very effective (but dishonest) way to derail any real criticism of the erosion of the American Constitution and the metastases of Globalism in its stead.

    It is also true Trump is “using the rules of reality TV” to “destroy the existing rules of American politics”. And yes, I agree with Weber's implication here: the rules of reality TV are distasteful (but so are politics in general), but here's where our agreement stops: would the destruction of the existing rules of America politics really be a bad thing? To be frank, the existing “rules” of American politics, as Quigley pointed out in Tragedy and Hope, are abhorrent and disheartening and only encourage apathy and discouragement for any hope of real and effective participation in government. The existing rules of American politics are not meant for democratic participation...

    Let’s wake up to this kind of mind-control demagoguery. Weber has either bought into these misnomers himself or is deliberately playing the very demagoguery card he rails against to mislead his readers. While he doesn't explicitly say so, the threat to America is not a disenfranchised middle class (that can be likened to a whole host of negative qualities to which society should certainly take caution), which might provide a despot like Hitler an easy pass to wreak tremendous havoc to world stability. The threat to America is globalism. Donald Trump is exploiting this, and, agree or disagree, this is what we should be discussing.
    Last edited by T Smith; 18th July 2019 at 00:59.

  10. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to T Smith For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (17th July 2019), Delight (17th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (18th July 2019), Jayke (17th July 2019), KiwiElf (17th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), Star Mariner (19th July 2019), ulli (18th July 2019)

  11. Link to Post #6
    Scotland Avalon Member Mutchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    25th December 2010
    Location
    Back side of the Moon
    Age
    46
    Posts
    471
    Thanks
    893
    Thanked 1,539 times in 350 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    I have been away from the forum for a while but i must say i was highly impressed with this thread .... I live in Aberdeen in Scotland and i work in the oil and gas sector and various tradesmen who i have been contracting alongside have been constantly discussing the 4 th Reich America ... All that is missing is the Right Hand Salute !!! Hopefully there wont be another major war but it would seem at times as if America / Israel wants war with Iran . Thank you for posting
    You ever feel like your just falling forever ....no point in it ... no purpose what a way to GO .

  12. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Mutchie For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (17th July 2019), Delight (17th July 2019), Ernie Nemeth (18th July 2019), ichingcarpenter (17th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (17th July 2019), T Smith (17th July 2019)

  13. Link to Post #7
    UK Avalon Member Sunny-side-up's Avatar
    Join Date
    4th April 2013
    Location
    Between here & there
    Age
    60
    Posts
    3,603
    Thanks
    38,941
    Thanked 16,247 times in 3,322 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Yes Mutchie.

    All this sudden TicTac ufo business and hint's how they could start a war is part of a plan to me.

    I would say that it is USA tech or the unseen hands that pull the US strings.

    USA/US/4 th Reich, paper clip america, one or the other.

    Think America Becoming Nazi Germany happened long ago now.

    They the hands are playing the supper countries common peoples (not the heads, the heads are all in on it) like puppets.

    I don't think it's alien visitors
    I'm a simple easy going guy that is very upset/sad with the worlds hidden controllers!
    We need LEADERS who bat from the HEART!
    Rise up above them Dark evil doers, not within anger but with LOVE

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sunny-side-up For This Post:

    Mutchie (18th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), T Smith (17th July 2019)

  15. Link to Post #8
    United States Avalon Member
    Join Date
    29th April 2018
    Age
    68
    Posts
    535
    Thanks
    1,808
    Thanked 3,979 times in 520 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    The King of Horror books Stephen KIng

    The author tweeted to the President, “First, you stoke hatred and fear of minorities. Then you round them up and put them in camps. Next, you send out raiding parties to get those who have been driven into hiding. The armbands come next right?”


  16. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to ichingcarpenter For This Post:

    Cipher (18th July 2019), Jackson (18th July 2019), Mutchie (18th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), Star Mariner (19th July 2019), T Smith (17th July 2019)

  17. Link to Post #9
    France Avalon Member Deux Corbeaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    12th August 2018
    Language
    Dutch
    Age
    72
    Posts
    428
    Thanks
    3,602
    Thanked 2,510 times in 406 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Thanks mr. Smith. Another analysis which I think is spot on.

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)

    ....snip ....


    Weber observes some important similarities between Trump and Hitler; both are anti-politicians, both exploit rhetoric aimed at fixing their countries, both observe their country as the citizenry knows it will not survive without remedying action. These are all factual and accurate comparisons, but laden with very subtle and powerfully manipulative suggestions, e.g., Fixing America Bad/Keeping America on Path of Established International Order Good.

    It is true Donald Trump employs rhetoric aimed at “fixing” America (by retreating from its fast-paced march to globalism); it is also true this rhetoric appeals to the emotions and passions and prejudices of the people. But that’s what all successful politicians do (which is why politics is so distasteful in the first place); I can not think of one high-ranking elected official who is not a demagogue. Is this really unique to DJT? One can almost universally interchange the words “demagoguery” and “political rhetoric” without compromising clarity of thought to the slightest degree; it is also true America “won’t survive” on its current trajectory (that is, as a sovereign nation, save as a vassal state subservient to the power structure and emerging juggernaut of corporate globalism) but are these presumptions really negative observations, as implied? Why or why not? We are led to believe the presumption underlying the essay is not only negative but also dangerous and potentially disastrous. Again, let's discuss. However, Weber, like Browning, does not address the question and simply implies a negative connotation we should embrace as gospel. Moreover, I would argue he implies a connotation entirely divorced from reality, but what half of the political divide nonetheless embrace with impassioned fervor, mainly due to the avalanche of arguments like Weber's, which endlessly circulate through the establishment's propaganda apparatus. The idea goes like this: the middle class in America is losing out (they are) and Trump is exploiting their prejudices and discontent (like Hitler did). But instead of exploring the real issues fueling the wave of populism, which I would suggest is the emergence of corporate globalism gutting prosperity and the American middle class and the people's inalienable rights, propagandists conflate Trump's idea of “fixing” America to a retreat back to Jim Crow, the restoration of institutional racism, and a "sanctioned" embrace of White Supremacy, anti-progressive ideals, and bigoted values. This is a very effective (but dishonest) way to derail any real criticism of the erosion of the American Constitution and the metastases of Globalism in its stead.

    It is also true Trump is “using the rules of reality TV” to “destroy the existing rules of American politics”. And yes, I agree with Weber's implication here: the rules of reality TV are distasteful (but so are politics in general), but here's where our agreement stops: would the destruction of the existing rules of America politics really be a bad thing? To be frank, the existing “rules” of American politics, as Quigley pointed out in Tragedy and Hope, are abhorrent and disheartening and only encourage apathy and discouragement for any hope of real and effective participation in government. The existing rules of American politics are not meant for democratic participation...

    Let’s wake up to this kind of mind-control demagoguery. Weber has either bought into these misnomers himself or is deliberately playing the very demagoguery card he rails against to mislead his readers. While he doesn't explicitly say so, the threat to America is not a disenfranchised middle class (that can be likened to a whole host of negative qualities to which society should certainly take caution), which might provide a despot like Hitler an easy pass to wreak tremendous havoc to world stability. The threat to America is globalism. Donald Trump is exploiting this, and, agree or disagree, this is what we should be discussing.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Deux Corbeaux For This Post:

    edina (19th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), T Smith (18th July 2019)

  19. Link to Post #10
    United States Avalon Member OldArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    15th July 2019
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    35
    Thanks
    83
    Thanked 176 times in 24 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Why does the cabal that supported Hitler want Trump out of office so badly? I'm talking about known psychopaths such as the Clintons, Bushes, people and agencies doing MK Ultra, drug and arms dealing, pedophile rings etc., exposed by people such as Cathy O'Brien, Cody Snodgres and many others. Are these psychos going to save Americans from Trump?
    Well said, TomKat!!! The scree that began this thread is agitprop, pure and simple.

    OldArcher
    Dowsing for Life! Dowsing gives and brings life, and confidence! There are NO unhappy Dowsers!

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to OldArcher For This Post:

    conk (18th July 2019), peterpam (18th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (18th July 2019), Valerie Villars (18th July 2019)

  21. Link to Post #11
    UK Avalon Member snoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    30th January 2018
    Location
    UK atm
    Language
    Mancunian
    Posts
    87
    Thanks
    54
    Thanked 400 times in 78 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    unequivocally YES

  22. Link to Post #12
    France Avalon Member Deux Corbeaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    12th August 2018
    Language
    Dutch
    Age
    72
    Posts
    428
    Thanks
    3,602
    Thanked 2,510 times in 406 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by OldArcher (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Why does the cabal that supported Hitler want Trump out of office so badly? I'm talking about known psychopaths such as the Clintons, Bushes, people and agencies doing MK Ultra, drug and arms dealing, pedophile rings etc., exposed by people such as Cathy O'Brien, Cody Snodgres and many others. Are these psychos going to save Americans from Trump?
    Well said, TomKat!!! The scree that began this thread is agitprop, pure and simple.

    OldArcher
    OldArcher, your reply confused me. I had to use the urban dictionary for the words ‘scree’ and ‘agitprop’...... Pretty insulting.

    Could you tell me who you see as the scree and agitprop ? Is it the original poster T Smith, or the writer of “The Suffocation of Democracy”, Christopher R. Browning ?

    I assume you did read the original post #1 well before coming up with such a pure and simple reply.

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Deux Corbeaux For This Post:

    edina (19th July 2019), T Smith (19th July 2019)

  24. Link to Post #13
    Costa Rica Avalon Member ulli's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th November 2010
    Posts
    13,595
    Thanks
    64,506
    Thanked 124,455 times in 13,274 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by Deux Corbeaux (here)
    Quote Posted by OldArcher (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Is this the pot calling the kettle black? Why does the cabal that supported Hitler want Trump out of office so badly? I'm talking about known psychopaths such as the Clintons, Bushes, people and agencies doing MK Ultra, drug and arms dealing, pedophile rings etc., exposed by people such as Cathy O'Brien, Cody Snodgres and many others. Are these psychos going to save Americans from Trump?
    Well said, TomKat!!! The scree that began this thread is agitprop, pure and simple.

    OldArcher
    OldArcher, your reply confused me. I had to use the urban dictionary for the words ‘scree’ and ‘agitprop’...... Pretty insulting.

    Could you tell me who you see as the scree and agitprop ? Is it the original poster T Smith, or the writer of “The Suffocation of Democracy”, Christopher R. Browning ?

    I assume you did read the original post #1 well before coming up with such a pure and simple reply.
    I noticed this, too, how some replies only dealt with the thread title, and some with the content of T Smith’s post.
    I guess some of us are in a rush.

  25. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ulli For This Post:

    ClearWater (19th July 2019), Deux Corbeaux (19th July 2019), edina (19th July 2019), T Smith (19th July 2019)

  26. Link to Post #14
    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
    Join Date
    19th August 2010
    Location
    Winning The Galactic Lottery
    Posts
    11,379
    Thanks
    17,589
    Thanked 82,033 times in 10,210 posts

    Default Re: Is Donald Trump’s America Becoming Nazi Germany? A Critical Look at one Historian’s Troubling Similarities

    Quote Posted by ichingcarpenter (here)
    The King of Horror books Stephen KIng

    The author tweeted to the President, “First, you stoke hatred and fear of minorities. Then you round them up and put them in camps. Next, you send out raiding parties to get those who have been driven into hiding. The armbands come next right?”

    It's the same set-up in Europe, right now, but the plan or situation if you will, is about 3-4-5 years ahead in it's motions, in Europe vs the USA.

    so it seems, to get the US on the right page, re getting ready for the next stage..to accelerate the number of people who make their way through the border,and melt into the USA.

    when the pot is stirred or agitated to a level that is at the now European norm, or even more far gone, then it is time to move up to the next stage, which is the rounding up of people and getting them out of the country. the general populace has to be agitated and inflamed enough in order to get this done.

    when things are far enough gone where no one has any idea what to do,and are so far gone it seems hopeless, then, suddenly, somehow, the borders are finally closed and are somehow working correctly. When that could have happened at any instant in the past number of years.

    These methods and tactics were honed to perfection over the past 30+ years in the middle east and what not, and now they are being brought home to be used against the very beast or might of the USA which fed them and let them come into being. This is the eating of the enabler and body of the machine, so that the group who is left in control, has a world wide population so far gone and damaged that they have no understanding, record, or memory of what has happened to them.

    I was warning about this now fully blown living scenario, on other forums -since about 2007.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

  27. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Carmody For This Post:

    Deux Corbeaux (19th July 2019), Ernie Nemeth (19th July 2019), Hervé (19th July 2019), Sunny-side-up (19th July 2019), T Smith (19th July 2019), Valerie Villars (19th July 2019)

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts