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Thread: St Thomas

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    United States Avalon Member Bluegreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and from me did the all extend.

    Split a piece of wood; I am there.

    Lift up the stone, and you will find me."

    – Thomas 77



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    Hi Bluegreen

    I would be interested in getting your interpretation of a few of these parables. I am genuinely interested to hear how you (or anyone else) would put these into simple language in today's world. If you don't want to or don't feel it is necessary that's fine but I would love to hear what people are thinking when they read these quotes. I have enjoyed viewing and reading this thread. I have listed a couple below that I am most curious about but choose any that you wish.
    R
    Hi! I'd like to play... umm but like Bluegreen said, I'm far from an authority - I can share what you asked: what I am thinking when I read these quotes. This one about the vineyard, and being troubled (disturbed) caught me and rings round my mind quite a lot.

    Quote Jesus said: "A man owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it in return for a portion of the produce. He sent his slave to collect his portion of the vineyard's crop. The farmers grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him. The slave returned and told his master, who said, 'Perhaps he didn't know them.' He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well.

    Then the master sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they'll show my son some respect.' Because they were aware he would inherit the vineyard, the farmers grabbed the son and killed him. Anyone here with two ears will listen!"
    I like to guess the vineyard is our material plane, the man who rents the vineyard is God, and the farmers are us

    Quote Jesus said: "Those who seek should not stop until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, they will reign over all, and then they will rest."
    Same as Bluebreen I interpreted this as a quest for truth, and the truth is not pleasant. Lovecraft says something similar except Lovecraft has a helpless sense of doom. I love Lovecraftian cosmic horror but he does mope around all helpless. Here is Lovecrafts quote about the horrible truth
    “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity..."
    **EDIT:: Hello DNA **

    Take child abuse. Who wants to be aware of that? On Earth a creature typically eats creatures smaller than it, in a big chain of consumption, planets in space consume each other, it is a brutal, violent place where we live. The horror.

    But instead of hopeless and maddening doom the Gospel of St Thomas Jesus quote doesn't dash all hope: when you see the truth, you will understand where others don't; you won't be surprised by the bad things, saddened but not surprised. That's why 'reign' makes sense to me in that context, because once you know the truth, however uncomfortable, you are, in some ways, more powerful

    Quote Jesus said: "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter the kingdom."
    Nope, you got me here this sounds like gibberish to me. I thought I was starting to get it, but obviously not. I wonder if this is describing something like detachment of the ego greybeard talks about.
    Last edited by YoYoYo; 26th October 2019 at 10:05.

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Quote Posted by YoYoYo (here)
    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    Hi Bluegreen

    I would be interested in getting your interpretation of a few of these parables. I am genuinely interested to hear how you (or anyone else) would put these into simple language in today's world. If you don't want to or don't feel it is necessary that's fine but I would love to hear what people are thinking when they read these quotes. I have enjoyed viewing and reading this thread. I have listed a couple below that I am most curious about but choose any that you wish.
    R
    Hi! I'd like to play... umm but like Bluegreen said, I'm far from an authority - I can share what you asked: what I am thinking when I read these quotes. This one about the vineyard, and being troubled (disturbed) caught me and rings round my mind quite a lot.

    Quote Jesus said: "A man owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it in return for a portion of the produce. He sent his slave to collect his portion of the vineyard's crop. The farmers grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him. The slave returned and told his master, who said, 'Perhaps he didn't know them.' He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well.

    Then the master sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they'll show my son some respect.' Because they were aware he would inherit the vineyard, the farmers grabbed the son and killed him. Anyone here with two ears will listen!"
    I like to guess the vineyard is our material plane, the man who rents the vineyard is God, and the farmers are us

    Quote Jesus said: "Those who seek should not stop until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, they will reign over all, and then they will rest."
    Same as Bluebreen I interpreted this as a quest for truth, and the truth is not pleasant. Lovecraft says something similar except Lovecraft has a helpless sense of doom. I love Lovecraftian cosmic horror but he does mope around all helpless. Here is Lovecrafts quote about the horrible truth
    “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity..."
    Take child abuse. Who wants to be aware of that? On Earth a creature typically eats creatures smaller than it, in a big chain of consumption, planets in space consume each other, it is a brutal, violent place where we live. The horror.

    But instead of hopeless and maddening doom the Gospel of St Thomas Jesus quote doesn't dash all hope: when you see the truth, you will understand where others don't; you won't be surprised by the bad things, saddened but not surprised. That's why 'reign' makes sense to me in that context, because once you know the truth, however uncomfortable, you are, in some ways, more powerful

    Quote Jesus said: "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter the kingdom."
    Nope, you got me here this sounds like gibberish to me. I thought I was starting to get it, but obviously not. I wonder if this is describing something like detachment of the ego greybeard talks about.

    Think its pointing to spirit is formless neither male nor female--there is only consciousness which is all pervading--omnipresent--within and withut---when you see and feel things as they really are--see beyond the material ilusion--then you will enter the kingdom--Jesus sai it was within--think he meant removal of ignorance--in other words Self Realization--enlightenment--heaven.
    Just guessing.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Quote Jesus said: “If two can make peace in a single house, they can say to a mountain, 'Move,' and the mountain will move."
    Quote The disciples said: “When will you appear to us? When will we see you?”

    Jesus said: “When you strip naked without shame and jump up and down on your clothing just as little children, then you will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid.”

    I think he is speaking literally.



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Quote "Jesus said: "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter the kingdom."
    I have read that this passage refers to Celestial Marriage of the Divine Sparks (us) with our Higher Selves (Eve-I am Presence). The two become one, neither male or female but unified, male and female.

    When he talks about making an eye in place of an eye and hand in place of hand he is referring to changing the earthly/fleshy body into a Spiritual/Celestial body.

    Similarly the quote below is about the two elements (the Divine Spark with the Higher Self) uniting ie.making peace . The Divine Spark is seen as being male while the Higher Self is female.

    Quote Jesus said: “If two can make peace in a single house, they can say to a mountain, 'Move,' and the mountain will move."

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: “The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it.

    After so much trouble he said to the sheep, “I love you more than the ninety-nine.”

    – Thomas 107





    Quote How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

    – Matthew 18:12
    Last edited by Bluegreen; 26th October 2019 at 22:28.

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: “Blessed is he who knows where the bandits are going to attack, so he can prepare, assemble his forces, and arm himself before they enter.”

    – Thomas 103



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "Blessed is the lion that a man eats, making the lion human. And damned is the man that a lion eats, because that lion will become human."

    – Thomas 7


    Last edited by Bluegreen; 26th October 2019 at 22:35.

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Quote Posted by Bluegreen (here)
    Jesus said: "Blessed is the lion that a man eats, making the lion human. And damned is the man that a lion eats, because that lion will become human."

    – Thomas 7

    This got me very interested. I wondered, did Jesus really say that?

    It seems he did. Or at least, it was definitely reported that he did.

    From http://earlychristianwritings.com/th...lthomas7.html:

    The Nag Hammadi Coptic Text:



    Here are three different translations: (these three scholars are the three most referenced)

    Beate Blatz:
    Jesus said: "Blessed is the lion which the man eats, and the lion will become man; and cursed is the man whom the lion eats, and the lion will become man."
    Bentley Layton:
    Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion that the human being will devour so that the lion becomes human. And cursed is the human being that the lion devours; and the lion will become human."
    Jean Doresse:
    Jesus says: "Blessed is the lion which a man eats so that the lion becomes a man. But cursed is the man whom a lion eats so that the man becomes a lion!"
    Scholarly Quotes:

    F. F. Bruce writes: "The point of this seems to be that a lion, if eaten by a man, is ennobled by rising in the scale of being, whereas a man, if eaten by a lion, is degraded to a lower status than was originally his and may even risk missing the goal of immortality. It is not that we become what we eat but that what we eat becomes part of us (as in Walter de la Mare's poem 'Little Miss T-'). Whether, in addition, there is any special symbolism in the lion, as in 1 Peter 5.8 ('Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour'), is exceedingly difficult to determine." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 115)

    Funk and Hoover write: "This saying is obscure. In antiquity the lion was known to be powerful and ferocious. Hunting lions was the sport of kings. The lion was often the symbol of royalty. The winged lion figures in apocalyptic visions, sometimes as the consort of God, at other times as a symbol of evil. In Rev 4:7, the four figures that surround the throne are the lion, the young bull, the human figure, and the eagle. These images were later adopted as symbols of the four canonical evangelists; the winged lion specifically became the symbol for the Gospel of Mark." (The Five Gospels, p. 477)

    Funk and Hoover continue: "The lion was also used to symbolize human passions. Consuming the lion or being eaten by the lion may therefore have had to do with the relation to one's passions. Understood this way, the saying embodies an ascetic motif. At any rate, Jesus, who was reputed to be a glutton and a drunkard, probably did not coin this saying." (The Five Gospels, p. 477)

    Marvin Meyer writes: "This riddle-like saying remains somewhat obscure. In ancient literature the lion could symbolize what is passionate and bestial. Hence this saying could suggest that although a human being may consume what is bestial or be consumed by it, there is hope for the human being - and the lion. In gnostic literature the ruler of this world (Yaldabaoth in the Secret Book of John) is sometimes said to look like a lion. This saying may ultimately be based upon statements in Plato, for instance his comparison (in Republic 588E-589B) of the soul to a being of three parts: a many-headed beast, a lion, and a human being. Plato recommends that the human part of the soul (that is, reason) tame and nourish the leonine part (that is, the passion of the heart)." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, pp. 71-72)

    Gerd Ludemann writes: "Verse 1 is about the humanization of bestial forces in human beings, v. 2 about human beings lapsing into a bestial nature. Because of the parallelism, I have emended the text in v. 2b, 'and the lion will become man', to the text above ['and the man will become lion']. The logion fits well with the ascetic-Gnostic circles which are interested in taming or humanization of bestial passions. They are often concerned with taming bestial natures, of which that of the lion is the strongest." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 593)

    Jean Doresse writes: "No doubt the lion here represents human passions, or more precisely, the lying spirit of evil. This is suggested by a passage from a Coptic Manichaean Psalm (CCLVII): 'This lion which is within me, which defiles me at every moment, I have strangled it and cast it out of my soul. . . .'" (The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics, p. 371)

    Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "This saying, as Doresse notes (page 134), is extremely obscure. From other sayings in Thomas we may infer that the lion can be eaten only if it is killed and becomes a corpse (60), and that knowing the world is equivalent to finding a corpse (57) - the world is not worthy of those who find such a corpse. The Gnostic who has eaten what is dead has made it living (Saying 10). Therefore, by eating the dead lion, which may be the hostile world (cf., 1 Peter 5:8: 'Your adversary the devil, like a raging lion . . .'), you can overcome the world by assimilating it to yourself. If the true inner man is consumed by the lion, and the lion becomes the man, the world has overcome the Gnostic (cf., Clement, Excerpta ex Theodoto, 84)." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 126)

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "I will destroy this house, and no one will be able to build it."

    – Thomas 71



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have.”

    – Thomas 41



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "The angels and the prophets will come to you and give you those things you already have. In turn, you give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what is theirs?'"

    – Thomas 88



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: “A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows, and a servant cannot serve two masters, or the servant will honor one and insult the other. No one who drinks aged wine suddenly wants fresh wine. Fresh wine is not poured into aged wineskins or they may break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin or it may spoil. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, as it may tear.”

    – Thomas 47



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "The kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the pearl for himself.

    So also with you, seek treasure that is unfailing, that does not decay, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."

    – Thomas 76



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    The last two I think are about being single minded and discovering the pearl of Enlightenment which you have in your "hand"
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. Had he been worthy, he would not have tasted death."

    – Thomas 85



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: “Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore.”

    – Thomas 105



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Jesus said: "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

    When you go into a region and walk about the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

    After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; it is what comes out of your mouth that defiles."

    – Thomas 14


    Last edited by Bluegreen; 27th October 2019 at 14:55.

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    Exclamation Re: St Thomas

    Simon Peter said: "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life."

    Jesus said: "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males, for every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom."

    – Thomas 114



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    Default Re: St Thomas

    Bumping this great thread with this very interesting video:


    The YouTube text:

    We have known of the existence of the Gospel of Thomas from ancient writers, but it was only after the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Codices that the actual text became available. The Gospel of Thomas is basically a collection of sayings, or logia, that sometimes seem similar, perhaps more primitive than sayings found in the canonical Gospels.

    Sometimes, however, the sayings seem better explained as reflecting a "Gnostic" understanding of the world. This involves a rejection of the material world and a desire for gnosis, a secret knowledge, in order to escape the world and return to the divine being.
    1. 00:00 - Chapter 1. The Nag Hammadi Codices and Thomasine Literature.
    2. 10:35 - Chapter 2. The Sayings of the Gospel of Thomas.
    3. 28:15 - Chapter 3. Proto-orthodoxy and "Gnosticism".

  40. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    Bluegreen (18th December 2019), edina (17th December 2019), James (17th December 2019), justntime2learn (18th December 2019), OopsWrongPlanet? (19th December 2019), rgray222 (20th December 2019), Valerie Villars (18th December 2019), Wind (18th December 2019), Yoda (18th December 2019), Zampano (18th December 2019)

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