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Thread: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Out of emptiness you create. It most likely meaning for that purpose alone. It helps to keep your mind free to distress you or to gain rest from overthinking but on the other side if you go into trance there are new age entities and demons that can teach you this without knowing and that is how they get inside of your head. I have done both ends.
    The main reason I quieten my mind is to hear the voice of my heart and soul and yes it can be done. That is a way and a means to follow it. The heart and soul is pure love and apparently defends against the negative thinking anyway. So to have emptiness is to create loving things and clarity and a chance to receive messages from spirit that are beneficial for you in loving spiritual growth.
    After you do this then you can use visualisation towards creating and that's why they say you are "still" in love.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    That is a very clear description of what is to be done or rather not done.
    Who is doing anything anyway!!
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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    That is a very clear description of what is to be done or rather not done.
    Who is doing anything anyway!!
    Thanks Chris
    Oh, LOL, "Many A True Word Is Spoken In Jest" eh ?


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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Sammy (here)

    Ever after I had this sense that I "knew" something... that I was something that actually cannot be when considered from the relative world. The Absolute?
    Yes, here again, despite many levels and interpretations, Buddhism will alloy you to the Absolute.

    The early meditations develop Emptiness as well as meditation "With Images", or Sadguna Brahman. If progress is good, one eventually combines these and develops the final stage "Without Images" or Nirguna Brahman. These are the two forms of Brahman, the Absolute, With Time, and No Time.

    In China, some of the very first Buddhist Transmissions was done by Fa Hsiang, who included the tenets of Nirakara meditation, or that which relates to Nirguna Brahman. His system was found to be too elaborate and too confusing, nobody could understand him, even after they wound up building a mansion like a Hall of Mirrors to try to explain it. This did not take root and I do not think this "component" of the Path entered China again. Much like why esoterism was "ear whispered" instead of published, no one to understand it.

    Most of the phiiosophies and teachings are "Provisional" and it is something like they are internalized and practiced, until one is ready for another step. This might be something like learning how to make a shot in billiards or golf or something: if you are a beginner, you are going to try to memorize three or four verbal instructions and try to coordinate it with your hands and body. If you do it right, eventually you will quit thinking about the instructions, and the process has a natural flow.

    Here, Buddhist practice has a fairly specific scheme about Yoga. It presumes experience with meditation which, at the simplest, may have been based on outer objects and ritual acts, or, may have taught these as symbolic for inner conditions. Some beings are incapable of doing anything else or going much deeper in the mind. However, some will be found who experience samadhi. Then, Yoga as such is aimed at those who enjoy samadhi and would be motivated to accomplish Nispanna or Completion Stage, or the equivalent of becoming a Bodhisattva. By this, I mean Accomplishment, not just someone who has been given permission on a Completion practice.

    Buddha displays all of the Paramitas or Perfections of Prajnaparamita. They are all aspects of the Bodhisattva Path, however it is "reversible" until reaching the eighth stage. During this period of cultivation, one can still fail, or work under some kind of error, or make little progress. So we are talking about the difference between us and a Bodhisattva. And so most of the training will involve fusing the first six or seven Paramitas at once.

    Union {yoga, nal jor ) means union with the dharmadhatu, the interior objects of the mind {manas), according to Buddhist Abhidharma theory; the ‘source of natures’ ( dharmodaya ) and the Absolute ‘Object’ (paramartha ) in Buddhist Tantra by means of Knowledge {jnana--gnosis--Vajrasattva).

    So the Yoga is built on at least some prior knowledge and experience of gnosis.

    The source of continuity is none other than the body and mind as they are. Although there is much more to the Dharmadhatu, the main mental objects in question are four skandhas, the basis or grounds for transformation. Dharmodaya and Paramartha pertain to Completion.

    The fifth skandha, Vijnana or Awareness, is described as a neutral observer who really just collates information, by observing the other skandhas.

    The first or Form Skandha is described as all sensory inputs joined together at a point inside the soft palate, called Brahma or Shanpa, the Entrance to Nirvana, related to Khecari or the sky and sky-goer. This is considered a "mental object".

    The three skandhas are what would generally be interpreted as mind or personality, such as Feelings or Sentience (good/bad/neutral reaction to the inputs), Perception (memories, associations, "chair is a chair"), and Samsara, which is volition or the manner in which we project mental assemblies back through our mind into the environment.

    So to do Yoga means I am not satisfied by philosophy or low power rites, I have some success with gnosis, mantra, an interest in samadhi and would want to prepare myself to do the real Pranayama and Completion Stage of full Bodhisattva nature.

    Again, regardless of school, there is no method which is not fusing the Skandhas and six or seven Paramitas. That is why I find this "layer" of information to be the most important. I say this from the basis of having done a crude parallel of Completion Stage, since it is possible to try something similar by Hatha Yoga and "other methods", if one were to strip it down to perhaps a more shamanic Ego Death with Ecstasy, I have done thousands of those, at will, but with at most a kind of flimsy "copy/paste" of Buddhist patterns onto it. Without the actual "working gears", you do not get the protection or develop the wisdoms that real Buddhism requires.

    If I had been able to get ahold of the explanations back then that I can, now, it would have been incredibly more useful. That is the strength on internet, it works great as a Dharma treasure chest, if properly sifted. That is also why I am trying to say this is not exactly a belief system, or something I copied out of a book, it actually is what it says it is, and is simply the linguistic attempt to describe something that is much more real and powerful and has the nature of a dance around the inexpressible. Safe and reliable is the pledge made to it.

    And so to say it legitimately begins with Vajrasattva as Purification (non-duality) with respect to the Dharmadhatu (mental objects), then, what happens is, there is an adventure of Vajrasattva doing various activities and moods, and the meditator's mental objects are the basis of continuity for Buddha Families and other deities. That is why, in addition to the Five Skandhas, Vajrasattva is considered a Sixth Family. And so the primary Yoga teaching is Six Families.

    It is accepted in an Uncommon way by Buston, Tson kha pa and others that you may consider Seven Families, which is roughly to say that the outcome or result of this training will be Completion Stage. In this case Vajradhara may be allowed as the Seventh, which is inherently the same as Kagyu Guru Yoga.

    If I collate the most saturated explanation possible of the Bodhisattva Path for disciples, it will, even in the words of Rangtong Prasangika devotees, return the same format of Kagyu Guru Yoga, using Vajrasattva Purification, Guru Vajradhara, and Prajnaparamita as a deity. If I have that as a core, it also gives a taste of the four tantric empowerments that would be done in a real initiation. I would say this format of mediation can be developed gradually according to understanding, and, when pursued, directly uses one of the most general or universal standards which expands to incorporate any aspect of the teaching. When we go through the scriptures, one of the main speakers or performers will often be Vajradhara, but another one of the main scriptures is Prajnaparamita, who brings in Manjushri and the rest.

    Here is a very good example. This is an image commissioned by a donor, who is at the bottom center, beside White Vajrasattva. At the top is Vajradhara between Tilo and Naro. Vajradhara is repeated as the larger central deity, having, over his head, the goddess Prajnaparamita having four arms and a Prajnaparamita Sutra in her hand. She is in a position called Pride of the Deity which is a powerful way to use them in Yoga. This is from the Drikung Kagyu and it is not hard to tell the person sees themself in a conversation with Vajrasattva, while Vajradhara is like a teacher of several other deity systems (or Completions), all of which have expanded from the overhead root of Prajnaparamita:






    This style of Yoga is clear and concise because it stays with the same terminology as Prajnaparamita and the old Indian sadhanas. So for instance if I study Tara, she shares the language and meanings, but if I look at other branches like Nyingma or Shingon, things start looking different. If I look at this presentation in Sanskrit, it soon becomes evident that it does draw from the Vedas, Upanishads, Epics, and so forth, and Buddhist Yoga becomes sort of a giftwrap on an overall Indian package.

    Vajradhara is usually Dark Blue or Twilight Sky or cloudless mind beginning to perceive Dharmakaya or reality-as-it-is.

    The Dharmakaya itself does not teach, but uses Vajradhara, who is able to manifest paths of enlightenment or the different kinds of deity yoga.

    So the "system of Vajradhara" is by definition that of universal, inner guru. It can be found in some way in almost all lineages, but is prominent and uncluttered in Kagyu. In order to have an understanding of the basic daily exercise as shown in the thangka, one must first understand Vajrasattva is Androgyne, Prajnaparamita and Avalokitehsvara, who does Purification certainly by any normal means like confess, confess, but on the subtle plane indicates non-duality. His purpose is a state of Gnosis. Furthermore, the Prajnaparamita herself is Mother of All Buddhas, which are in the body. Vajradhara is simply Adi Buddha, or, Swayambhu Adi Buddha of Nepal.

    The Yoga figures are like a skeleton onto each part of which hangs an extremely profuse class of literature and practice, some of which is within the realm of what we can do, and some is more like information to be used by initiates. It works either at a basic level, or, takes any additional material one adds such as Elements, Families, Paramitas, etc., those are all intended to co-exist.

    From experience, I do not want to cause my body to undergo untrained, raw, shamanical Revelations by "other methods" again, but to use this Yoga which is slower, methodical, and controlled. The way I am trying to explain it mostly resides in Nepal, Kagyu, and Sakya Ngor, along with what could be called the genocidally-exterminated part, which was a different cult of Tara than now seen in Tibet. This all stays very close to the same vocabulary, coherent to a Vikramasila and Ratnagiri style, those being some of the main esoteric colleges that were destroyed along with the larger ones like Nalanda and Taxila.

    In terms of Adi Buddha or the Absolute itself, it is known as self-arising but our view to it is the center of Catuskoti:

    It is

    It isn't

    It is and isn't

    It neither is nor isn't

    Nagarjuna calls these Four Extremes to Be Avoided and defines Madhyamika as the center between them. What Shentong says is this center has no natures other than its own. Therefor, any nature I try to give it conceptually, must be discarded, "neti, neti" it is not this or that, the four extreme views become falsified. The mind cannot conceive it.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    This reminds me of the quote.
    "Form-formless-both- and Neither"
    The head cant get that but it points well.

    Thanks for your full knowledgeable posts shaberon
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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Clear Light (here)
    So the practitioner lives his or her life in an ordinary way, without needing any rules other than one's own awareness, always remaining in the primordial state through integrating that state with whatever arises as part of experience—with absolutely nothing to be seen outwardly to show that one is practicing. This is what is meant by self-liberation, this is what is meant by the name Dzogchen—which means Great Perfection—and this is what is meant by non-dual contemplation, or simply contemplation.
    Now, as it happens my place-of-work has re-opened today after its annual "summer shutdown" and so I won't be participating or interacting with as much of what goes on here at Avalon except perhaps at the weekends ... some of the threads I do follow post-by-post but my offerings will likely be much reduced however I will be here "in Spirit" (so-to-say) ...


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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    I have been meditating for a long time. Maybe to some meditators the 'emptiness' idea is useful, but I doubt that many would know how to sctually achieve it. I usually meditate on the present moment. The idea of meditating on emptiness is one of expectation, and that would be futile when meditating.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Found somewhat contemporary art work on the topic of Prajnaparamita

    Stunnigly cracked light sculpture




    ....it’s through the cracks that Light shines through ...

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Luxlucis (here)
    I have been meditating for a long time. Maybe to some meditators the 'emptiness' idea is useful, but I doubt that many would know how to sctually achieve it. I usually meditate on the present moment. The idea of meditating on emptiness is one of expectation, and that would be futile when meditating.

    Yes, many have difficulty with Emptiness, that is why there are many "Provisional" or "Gradual" stages. So for example, if you go in a Kagyu Dharma Center, they just read Heart Sutra. They won't say anything about Avalokiteshvara and Prajnaparamita. Neither Emptiness nor deities are described, you just start doing it; and so if you are curious, you have to start digging.

    I am not sure what is meant by expectation? I haven't really picked that up from anything.

    Prajnaparamita is Sherab which is a Tibetan class of deities that increase one's faculties. There are very few of these.

    Emptiness is Prajnaparamita at Sutra and Tantra levels. She is Mother of All Buddhas. The motivation is to make Complete Manifest Buddha. This means to perform Samadhi at par with the Tathagatas which means equal to All Buddhas. It manifests the Absolute:

    enlightened body
    enlightened speech
    enlightened mind
    enlightened qualities
    enlightened activity
    dharmadhatu
    primordial wisdom


    So we are well off to think of Seven Families, this pattern basically underlies all of the systems. Yoga is aimed at those to whom Dharmadhatu means something or who "get" Emptiness or Gnosis. Empty is a non-dual, no ego state, half of an Androgyne which is like a fuel used to manifest a Sevenfold Absolute. By Absolute here means Final Enlightenment, whereas the Path is those things that produce Enlightenment, Seven Jewels. The Grounds for continuity on this path are body and mind as-they-are.

    Since the Seven are Five Buddhas of the Skandhas, plus Vajrasattva and Vajradhara, that is the elegance of Vajradhara Guru Yoga. It easily works as a guide to all the Higher Yogas and the Absolute state of Buddhahood in the original language. They do the same thing in Nyingma but it is very Tibetan. I like Emptiness but I find Tibetan very difficult.

    If one understands Prajnaparamita and this Sevenfold pattern, it is like a fractal seed for everything else.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Luxlucis (here)
    I have been meditating for a long time. Maybe to some meditators the 'emptiness' idea is useful, but I doubt that many would know how to sctually achieve it. I usually meditate on the present moment. The idea of meditating on emptiness is one of expectation, and that would be futile when meditating.
    Ah, well I guess it really depends upon whether or not you're coming from a Dharmic framework eh ?

    For a consideration of what might be involved with regards to "Emptiness", there's a useful PDF called the Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Ven. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rimpoche (If there's an interest in Tibetan Buddhism [1]) :
    • Stage 1 : The Sravaka Meditation on Not-Self
    • Stage 2 : The Cittamatra Approach
    • Stage 3 : The Svatantrika Approach
    • Stage 4 : The Prasangika Approach
    • Stage 5 : The Emptiness of Other (Shentong) Approach

    Quote The idea of a series of meditation practices on a particular aspect of the Buddha's teachings is that by beginning with one's first rather coarse common sense understanding, one progresses through increasingly subtle and more refined stages until one arrives at complete and perfect understanding. Each stage in the process prepares the mind for the next in so far as each step is fully integrated into one's understanding through the meditation process.
    What I will say is that "Emptiness" certainly does not mean Nothingness, as in a complete Void, because that is the extreme of Nihilism ... but again this actually needs to be contemplated from within a Dharmic context if its Meaning is to be realized eh ?

    Quote Seeing that everything is self-perfected from the very beginning,
    the disease of striving for any achievement comes to an end of its own accord,
    and just remaining in the natural state as it is,
    the presence of non-dual contemplation continuously, spontaneously arises.

    [Excerpt from The Six Vajra Verses]
    . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

    [1] Furthermore in the Nyingma tradition there are the Nine yanas which are essential to appreciate alongside the subject of Emptiness !

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Clear Light (here)
    • Stage 1 : The Sravaka Meditation on Not-Self
    • Stage 2 : The Cittamatra Approach
    • Stage 3 : The Svatantrika Approach
    • Stage 4 : The Prasangika Approach
    • Stage 5 : The Emptiness of Other (Shentong) Approach

    Yes, this is quite fundamental, and is why although Shentong "clicks" with me personally, it is not necessarily the best way to present or lead in to the subject, and following the stages in basically that order is the real approach. That is the way I got it.

    This is a very succinct quote from Mipham Rinpoche from the 19th century Rime' or non-sectarian movement:

    "The prayer in seven lines is root of all these sadhanas.

    Within the Ground, these lines denote
    The seven kinds of consciousness;

    Upon the Path, they represent
    The seven branches of enlightenment;

    And when the Fruit is won, they are perfected
    As the seven sacred riches of the ultimate."


    Firstly he is saying this with respect to a simple Nyingma verse that has no Buddha names or mantric content, which to me makes it difficult to learn an additional verse to represent the meaning he describes.

    Instead, since the Catuskoti is known as Jewel of the Doctrine, then, the explanation is Ratna Gotra Vibhaga, which is something like Jewel Seed and Lineage, and it gives Seven Mysteries or Vajra Pada. Fortunately, this is not something unrelated, because it has the Three Jewels of Refuge, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. But then it contains elements that mean the same as Five Buddha Families, which, in expanded tables, are also for Refuge. And then it adds more elements similar to Vajrasattva--Vajradhara. So I can just say it in seven lines like a mnemonic, or, it could be an extended Refuge, and, even better, it directly attaches to Mipham's explanation:

    Buddha
    Dharma
    Sangha
    Dhatu
    Bodhi
    Guna
    Karma

    And so we notice he has said the grounds are "seven kinds of consciousness", which would seem to fly in the face of Asta Vijnana or Eight Consciousnesses, however in this case, our argument is that the eighth or Alaya consciousness is not really in man.

    This means five senses, plus the Mano-vijnana which is more or less the same as Vijnana Skandha, plus Klista-manas which is Defiled Mind. Although this is from Lankavatara Sutra and may seem new, abstract, or technical, those two minds will be found the same as the first two of the Four Noble Truths.

    Note also what the sevenfold pattern is the root of: all sadhanas.

    The worst possible thing about the RGV words is they could be slightly out of order compared to a normal list of 1-7 Families, but, if you just follow the meaning, it is the same. So then if I understand by "Path", he does not mean the stages or degrees of the Path, but, just as the senses and minds are simultaneously present and continuous, the Seven Jewels are simultaneously present and continuous, and they are what increases on those stages. Here, we might say the same for Seven Paramitas, even if Mipham does not explicitly state this, the meaning is intended to be adjunct.

    The Fruit is the Seven Buddhas, Seven Families, or Seven Wisdoms.

    If one starts putting together the Seven Mysteries, Perfections, Ground, Path, and Fruit, then you know the basis upon which any spiritual practice is done. It really is the "container". I don't know if it can be emphasized enough how accurate and thorough this is. Extremely useful for even considering trying anything.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Whether our Way ( or Fate) are predestined or whether we are choosing them consciously and only thus; you say; “I have a plan for my Way”,

    truly the Way has been described well only by those who walked it
    sages of all ages walked different Ways
    to meet -roughly- at the same point

    Who cares it was on Mt Kailash, Mt Shashta or Mt Zion

    “the local centre of the Universe”

    The Way of One who walks on his own will
    out of the taught concepts and dogmas
    is the only Way
    to experience “Pure Mind” or “Empty Mind”
    free of languages and programming
    Walking alone for long enough
    the trouble of “self” or “many selves” dissolves
    so do doubts, disputes, arguments

    even the very idea of duality loses its meaning


    Perhaps the Way can be taught to ready individuals
    but eventually the willingness and courage to walk
    has to be found from within.


    So called “scholars” will always argue about
    the Plan of the Way
    after someone has walked it



    🌟😀🌟

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)
    Whether our Way ( or Fate) are predestined or whether we are choosing them consciously and only thus; you say; “I have a plan for my Way”,

    truly the Way has been described well only by those who walked it
    sages of all ages walked different Ways
    to meet -roughly- at the same point

    Who cares it was on Mt Kailash, Mt Shashta or Mt Zion

    “the local centre of the Universe”

    The Way of One who walks on his own will
    out of the taught concepts and dogmas
    is the only Way
    to experience “Pure Mind” or “Empty Mind”
    free of languages and programming
    Walking alone for long enough
    the trouble of “self” or “many selves” dissolves
    so do doubts, disputes, arguments

    even the very idea of duality loses its meaning


    Perhaps the Way can be taught to ready individuals
    but eventually the willingness and courage to walk
    has to be found from within.


    So called “scholars” will always argue about
    the Plan of the Way
    after someone has walked it



    🌟😀🌟

    Ah, or perhaps in other words, LOL, so you can "talk the talk" but can you "walk the walk" ?

    Quote "When words and thoughts are silenced,
    the universe blossoms forth -- real and whole and one -- and words
    become what they were always meant to be: the score, not the
    music; the menu, not the food; the signpost, not the journey's end."

    Anthony de Mello, S.J.
    Quote Because in our culture we overvalue the intellect, we imagine
    that to become enlightened demands extraordinary intelligence.
    In fact, many kinds of cleverness are just further obscurations.
    There is a Tibetan saying: “If you are too clever, you could
    miss the point entirely.”

    Patrul Rinpoche said: “The logical mind seems interesting,
    but it is the seed of delusion.” People can become obsessed
    with their own theories and miss the point of everything. In
    Tibet we say: “Theories are like patches on a coat, one day they
    just wear off.”

    Glimpse After Glimpse : Sogyal Rinpoche
    Last edited by Clear Light; 15th August 2019 at 12:31. Reason: Having read it through later ;)

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    What is a challenge for me is the sheer number of "ways".
    I can not help but think this is a making complicated something quite simple.
    Im not saying this assumption is correct or even needing to be addressed.

    Taking what Jesus was believed to have said to the point where the learned disagreed on what he actually meant.
    " The Father and I are one" is simple enough yet-- screeds--volumes of explanation as to what he meant.
    And we need clergy to keep us right on these interpretations.--oh Yeah!!!
    How many christian churches all claiming they got it right!!

    Whilst I know little of other faiths I suspect the same applies.
    The person loves to learn all about.

    "Be still and know that I am God"---seems to suggest meditating to me.
    What else is required?
    I accept that knowledge gives a firm base to ones belief, just the thought as progress is made in uncovering Truth--the pathless path get narrower and narrower till all concepts, dogma, knowledge, even belief system, is let go of and then what remains?
    "That Thou Art"
    Just having a little rant--smiling
    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 15th August 2019 at 15:37.
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    What is a challenge for me is the sheer number of "ways".
    I can not help but think this is a making complicated something quite simple.
    Im not saying this assumption is correct or even needing to be addressed.

    What else is required?

    "That Thou Art"
    Yes, that is what I found, when I became utterly bogged down in trying to do something that would somehow unify Mayan and Persian ideas with the Egyptians, and so on. Intellectually interesting, but not worthwhile as a practice.

    The mantra "That Thou Art" is a translation of Tat Tvam Asi.

    This is abbreviated as the term "Tattva", meaning an element or aspect of reality.

    Besides meditation, there are essentially two requirements:

    Manas + Tra = Mantra, protection of the mind

    Tattva + Mantra = Tantra, continuity

    These are the underlying definitions required to accomplish the goal in our school, Complete Manifest Buddha. That is why this is not a religion, it is a practice, a method with a defined goal which can be, and has been, achieved.

    It does not matter that much whether one is a Cittamatra, Prasangika, etc., or what kind of sect one may be linked to, they are all working towards that same goal, this is the meaning of Mahayana.

    Internally, this consists of so many thousands of things that it is very complex, all used to increase an intensity called Mahamudra, beyond word, thought, and concept. This is what "actually matters" and is very palpable. I'm about as Nyingma as a stump. I have a hard time with Tibetan, they have hundreds of their own scriptures and their own particular way of administering rites. I have only ever met one Nyingma adherent that I know of, however, this was a Dzogchen master who spent half his life in caves.

    In terms of Mahamudra, the other disciples in the hall are like people I could "talk to" about it, many of them can probably get the concept and maybe even feel a little bit of it, but the master was one who as soon as I walked in, is the one you can "know with" about it. Having nothing to do with sensory input or any words used. There is nothing I can say to this man that he doesn't know since he is "already there". That is the only way I can try to explain having "tasted a stage of Mahamudra" that the ordinary human never will, but you can always sense its presence.

    Therefor there is only one way to do what we are trying to talk about, but it is the Bodhisattvas who are actually doing it, not us. And so we are running 84,000 algorithms that re-program "person" to "Bodhisattva". It is something like I may be intercepted somewhere weird like 51,480 and then if I pay attention, I can fairly easily settle into the main thirty-seven where training takes place, from stabilizing at least some of the mental chatter and also interpreting it as nerves.

    The Absolute is defined and so it is really a matter of Vajrasattva. Or even with a non-deity approach, Vishuddhimagga is a very old system of Tattva Purification, which will do something similar, starting with a linear approach of six or eight elements and then spinning or mixing them into a massive blend of combinations. I cannot remember if it has any type of mantra, it may be an exercise you just do.

    Vajrasattva is like that, but more intense, the mind of the meditator beginning to experience Voidness, which is Prajnaparamita, which is then accurate to say she grows in stages and acquires other names. So instead of thirty-seven elements of the environment or surroundings, it is like Vishuddhimagga but using thirty-seven elements or Tattva of bodhi mind.

    If I use the same basic mantra, Tat Tvam Asi, I get something like a wormhole with planetary systems spewing out, because of training "With Form" in conjunction with Emptiness.

    Other "ways" in the world at large are viewed by us as seeking rebirth in a higher world, or seeking Moksha or permanently-still Nirvana, which would be different purposes.

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    The easiest yet deeply profound understanding of the Universe that occurred to me spontaneously many years ago but it’s worthy to mind self of times to times is that from phenomenological perspective which is very close to the essence of Buddhist logicians (...anyway..) was that the Universe is A Happening,
    one time Event you may say

    Or as the Vedas say, one without a second.

    Time evolution progressing from ..
    another Time, one Universe transponding itself
    to another perhaps

    from the Time 0


    Resonant fields, strong and weak
    reflecting from the super fast stream of minutest particles of time
    like giant mirrors of space form what we call dimensions or space time fields.
    We are capable of predicting only small number of those surrounding us anyway since their parameters may differ from ours beyond our concepts of understanding.


    Sorry I drifted off.


    In either case it helps to understand that no matter how many repetitions of planetary cycles we have been here calling this another loop of cyclic existence

    or should we have spent the time in any other samsara anyway

    we are really living in one Happening
    of this particular Universe,
    time always moves forth on a Spiral


    from all that can be also deduced that
    we can not logically predict so called “everything”

    but we can atune ourselves to different
    resonant fields so also different speed
    of our own transpondence ..


    to another Universe



    Hope I’ve explained it well



    🙏😀🙏

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    Default Re: Is meditating on "emptiness" better than mindfulness cultivation ?

    Quote Posted by Agape (here)

    but we can atune ourselves to different
    resonant fields so also different speed
    of our own transpondence ..


    to another Universe

    This seems pretty close to why there are different mantras and deities.

    What this means, or, why it is at least somewhat scientific, is that Void, or Akash, responds to certain sounds in repeatable and sustainable ways. Therefor, with the right interaction, it reveals the true transcendent forms of deities, which, compared to our plane at least, are permanent and indestructible, and give various boons.

    The main worlds involved in training are not really other manifested universes, but are called Form, Desire, and Formless.

    Form contains this or any other cosmos, and I guess what we do is "wrap it up". Aside from agreeing that manifestation is perhaps a looping cycle, and that any world system is inhabited, there is not much to do with trying to track down the ultimate origin or future of Form.

    The operative agent is really Desire, which can send us to a Form world, or heaven or hell, on purpose or otherwise.

    Our best bet is to Purify it, which means any ordinary modes of cleanliness, confession, etc., but on a closer look, it specifically means non-duality in each realm of consciousness. To Purify it is to release it from the usual samsaric bonds and place it in a condition of Divine Desire.

    The real inner teachings take place in Akanistha, which is the highest part of Desire. This is often translated as Pure Lands. That makes sense, because it is invisible without Purification. Otherwise, if by discipline alone, one made the mind sharp enough to perceive this state of mental matter, it would enter a world of pleasure slaves.

    When preliminary meditation speaks of going to the Dharmadhatu (realm of only mental objects), it intends to do so in Akanistha (purity). So we have to learn how to get there and stabilize it. That is the only way to get Buddha's wisdom which is taught to the Bodhisattvas. This is really so vital that a great deal of practitioners see rebirth in a Pure Land as the overall goal for their whole life, which is not wrong, only slightly incomplete when compared to the entire Path.

    The same thing is shown in Lankavatara Sutra and many other places, there is the summoning of Dharmadhatu as a Treasure Tower, and then teachings are given to Bodhisattvas.

    The Pure Lands themselves are mostly organized according to the Buddha Families. These Families are always a type of wisdom resulting from purification of a given skandha, or mental defilement and disturbing emotion. All are necessary, but it is entirely likely that a person would have an affinity for one of the particular spheres. "Resonant field" is perhaps a decent way of describing these, since each one will be heavily themed with a certain color and style of objects.

    From that point, one faces the Void and melts the Buddhas to use the Formless world. Along with removing the illusion of time, it removes the illusion of space, which becomes a zero or non-dimension. Nothing to measure. Nowhere to set a border on what fills all space and perceives no "other" to measure a distance to.

    This involves the removal of color, which comes from a root word meaning "to conceal". And so if we look carefully, the sadhanas include the method of addressing the compound color, Green, and splitting it into its primary components. One slowly "peels" physical light and increases perception of self-existent light. If one had Akanistha consciousness and decided to look at physical light, it appears black. In its true form, self-existent luminosity is the Absolute Object, which Tibetans call Clear Light. Here, the term used in the original teachings is Prabhasvara, which does not say clear. It is light which has Purity, and also has the connotation of Royalty. However it does need to be distinguished from White. So it is not really wrong to call it clear, but the Sanskrit makes a different emphasis.

    In most aspects, then, the purification of desire to enter the Formless is a negative, inversion, reversal, inside-out, removal of any other experience.

    I am forced to testify this is a fact in Nature, more useful to me than facts as statistics and piles of objective information. Sadly, I decided to abort the process in order to be a normal working person. All that did was try to kill me, so, not a very satisfying decision. I am trying to make the right opportunity to "re-launch" it, and so that is why all the heavy emphasis on what we might call provisional teachings or training stages. I am sure that right now I could walk out in the woods and become one of the Hindu "forest hermits" who lives in a transcendental state. Instead, I am trying to get to the "workhorse" of the Path; there is a major gap between "basic information" and the fact that you can easily find some of the highest practices. There is a huge middle part, which is extremely relevant, since myself and many people are in a position to go beyond the most basic parts, and the highest parts either won't work, or will be very dangerous, without good training.

    In the main, this refers to Vajrasattva and Prajnaparamita. They intercept all the philosophical definitions and fuse them to mantra practice. There are not that many mantras one should really do without the transmission. But there are some, as long as one follows closely in accord to the teachings to the best of one's ability. The door to this is open, so is Manjushri, and so is the system of Tara--Avalokiteshvara. And so for instance if I know Vajrasattva, he is able to "take the form of" Manjushri, which makes Orange Manjuvajra. Or, if I make him a real "union of wisdom and skillful means", then by definition, Prajnaparamita and Avalokiteshvara are his two halves. Fortunately for us, Avalokiteshvara emanates Tara, whose chief characteristic is to arrive swiftly. There are a lot of Taras in Akanistha and so forth that I might not be able to meet today, but, if I am interested in repairing my subtle body, this is what by definition she does, and so as long as I am doing it right, there is definitely a way she will come to me, as a much more powerful assistant than plain or mantra-less meditation.

    So if one seeks to enhance meditation, then, in Mahayana, one is best off by going to those deities. If one has a fairly knowledgeable background in Hinduism, then there is a good idea of many more of them, since all of them have been made Buddhist converts. But you see how even our basic ones are highly-interlocking, so if we say Tara is Prajna or Female Buddha who attained realization in a prior universe, then Prajnaparamita is also Tara. Yes, but she has different names and forms when acting in various capacities. The Prajnaparamita applies to a type of central element or our perception of Emptiness itself, to which she eventually surrenders her personal name into the stages called:

    Dharma Dhatu Ishvari

    Akasha Dhatu Ishvari (Dakini)

    Vajra Dhatu Ishvari

    Kama Dhatu Ishvari

    That is why teaching Dakini as something we can casually pick up seems extremely premature. If we contain some kind of impure energy, she will just cut out our heart and mind and laugh at us. She is going to do whatever we are "serious" about. It seems much more important, then, to look at the Dharmadhatvishvari who provides all the definitions of the Families and so forth so we will have proper protection when we are ready for Dakini. So again by definition, Dharmadhatvishvari refers to Mental Objects and the process of summoning and stabilizing the Dharmadhatu itself. This is what is meant by Yoga, it is, so to speak, the somewhat missing middle engine that conveys us from outer or non-mantric meditation up to Dakini.

    Yoga has no other definition in Buddhism. It requires knowledge and ability based in the preliminary teachings and covers many years' worth of practice to insure capability for the Highest Yoga or strictly initiatic practices that use Dakini.

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